Monthly cost justified at the current SOTG

ShinChuck

10 people voted "LOL", to show that OP was silly and laughable.

18, as of this point, have voiced support, with 16 agrees and 2 insightful.

You can be as "LOL" all you want to try to be dismissive, but if 18/28 people, nearly twice your number, shares OP's concern, then there's a problem, one shared by a greater number than you.

Spiritreaver_ESO

LexonLightbringer wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

LexonLightbringer wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

LexonLightbringer wrote: »

Breg_Magol wrote: »

For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.

If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?

Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!

I spend 15 dollars a month on a number of things too. Yet if I go out to eat and that restaurant brings me food that is spoiled, I get a refund. I know I sound entitled to get a refund for a product not fit for human-consumption, I am selfish that way. Seriously though if you pay for something you expect something. I suppose its comes down to standards, and listen more power to you for eating food that will make you puke later!

Not exactly a fair comparison.

You pay for a complete meal. If it is not complete(missing sides, under-cooked, spoiled, etc), you send it back for another or your money back. An MMO is never complete until the servers are shutdown-its always a work in progress.

True, some MMOs are launched more fleshed out than some. But honestly, ZOS isn't doing that bad. There are some areas that they REALLY need to improve on with a quickness. But the launch could have been much, much, much worse and i think people need to dial back the Veruca Salt-esque mindset a bit and take note of that.

I think you can make an argument that ESO is missing the "Sides" you would expect in a "Complete Meal". Just for reference we are not talking about the Dessert, or in other words the additional content that comes later, we are talking about the normal stuff that's included with your meal.

Late-ish reply. Had to do my morning run and all that jazz.

OK

You want to stick with the food analogy, fine. Doesn't make the expectations some people are expressing any less unrealistic.

We agree on how one reacts when they buy a meal. They expect it to be complete. We've established a consensus of sorts on what 'complete' is. But you are trying to liken a purchasing a MMO at launch and shortly thereafter, in this case of course TESO, to purchasing a complete meal. And that comparison just isn't a fair one.

Sticking as close as possible to your complete meal analogy, buying a copy/setting up a sub for TESO is most closely likened to buying say an Apple Tree sapling. You buy the sapling and you know up front that given time, you are going to get lots of delicious apples if you properly care for and maintain it. You don't buy the sapling, plant it, and then expect a bushel of apples the next day.

I'll say it again for clarification: MMOs are works in progress. Every single one that has open servers and players on them.

A WIP is not a completed item/service/etc. It is an ongoing project that is measured in good stretches of time, not a single moment. It is disingenuous at best to allow yourself to think otherwise; purposefully delusional at worst.

OK

But what if you bought an "Apple Tree sapling" and it didn't provide you with a first year harvest? The "Seller" guaranteed you a first year harvest, yet you were not provided one. What if you were provided a first year harvest yet it was "slim pickings". Even though you wouldn't know until "harvest time" if you were going to get a good crop, I am certain there would be signs throughout the year that would suggest some "bad apples".

This particular food analogy is very different then the "complete meal" one. With the tree you have to wait and see, with the meal you know what you are getting. So lets break it down. The "Complete Meal" is the retail version of the game with the 30days included. The tree is the service after the initial purchase. They are entirely two different things.

I'm done playing.

Because while i can legitimately see and admit that ZOS has made not a few flat out screw-ups with TESO's launch, and at the same time STILL urge others to calm the hell down and give the devs a reasonable amount of time to improve; you are just being contentious at this point. Sadly, you have firmly established you are not in the disingenuous camp.

Quit, no skin off my sack.

Move on to the next thing that is gonna fail to meet your unreasonable expectations so you can moan about that. Hopefully you won't ever be in a situation where you don't get something done 100% right the first time out and need to redouble your efforts...you know, like the rest of us.

---

To others reading this post and others by me; i am not advocating the giving of a free pass to ZOS in regards to the things they got wrong during TESO's launch. In fact, i feel quit the contrary. My issue with a lot of what i consider'whining' threads/posts is this frankly dumb notion that some keeps popping up that expects an unreasonable level of initial perfection.

Game design isn't rocket-science. But then it ain't making cheese sandwiches either. Things aren't gonna always work out right at the start-most times, i've found; its just really disheartening when holding a company accountable for its mistakes has somehow become mutually exclusive from the common sense of allowing said company time to recover from those mistakes.

Anyways, i got work to do now so i can play later.

starkerealm

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

My issue with a lot of what i consider 'whining' threads/posts is this frankly dumb notion that some keeps popping up that expects an unreasonable level of initial perfection.

While you're on that, could you please remember there's a fairly large contingent of players out there that are frustrated and or severely disappointed with the state of the game, and lumping it all in as "whining" is somewhat disingenuous.

ErykGrimm

starkerealm wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

My issue with a lot of what i consider 'whining' threads/posts is this frankly dumb notion that some keeps popping up that expects an unreasonable level of initial perfection.

While you're on that, could you please remember there's a fairly large contingent of players out there that are frustrated and or severely disappointed with the state of the game, and lumping it all in as "whining" is somewhat disingenuous.

You see, its all in the delivery. Children come into the forums and put their two cents in. Which is about what their drivel is worth. Two cents and that is being generous. People are "entitled" to their opinions. That does not make all opinions valid, however. These "whiners" are virtual world transients that will never find a game that is perfect. Perfection is a flaw in and of itself and can never be achieved. The expectations that some of these people have are unrealistic and they have only set themselves up for disappointment. The game needs a lot of work, no kidding there. But, many of the complaints that these people have are ludicrous. These people will not be happy in any MMO and will continue jumping from game to game.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Saw this and since i'm grabbing a bite

starkerealm wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

My issue with a lot of what i consider 'whining' threads/posts is this frankly dumb notion that some keeps popping up that expects an unreasonable level of initial perfection.

While you're on that, could you please remember there's a fairly large contingent of players out there that are frustrated and or severely disappointed with the state of the game, and lumping it all in as "whining" is somewhat disingenuous.

First, you are taking part of my post out of context. I think it is clearly stated that i to feel ZOS has done some things wrong at and since launch. Sorry i didn't list them, but if you have been playing the game as it is currently you should not need a list of them.

Moving along,

it is one of the very definitions of 'whining' that is going on in many threads/posts atm. Express concerns, please. I know i will when i think i should. But coming to the forums and demanding instant fixes or changes to issues that need time to be planned out and implemented IS childish, IS petulant; IE-whining.

Sorry if you don't like that word. Can't really help you there. And i'm not saying everyone voicing concerns IS whining. But as i said far above, there are a few folks behaving in a very Veruca Salt manner



and again, that IS whining.

Now, if after say a solid 3 months, a quarter if you prefer that designation(i'd personally go as long as 6 months, but that's me), of the game being live, ZOS hasn't stepped up its game and made honest strides to address concerns that they HAVE to know about-then it won't be whining. Then it will be justified customer complaints and i'll be right there with the rest of ya.

But we aren't there yet are we?

And now a list even though i don't think it is really necessary:

*Collision issues
*Non-optimized graphical resources
*Phasing issues
*Quest bugs
*Broken class skills
*Unresponsive weapon swapping
*Unresponsive controls during battle
*Systemic game engine problems with loading textures(armor, NPC, world objects, etc)
*Clunky inventory interface
*Wildly varying difficulty in main quest battles
*The ridiculous state of PvP

Those are just a FEW of the issues i have with TESO as it is right now. And i have done my due diligence and i have sent in tickets on each of them as they afflict my gameplay. EVERY time they do so.

Having done and continuing to do that as necessary, i am going about my business in game and enjoying myself as much as possible, which is really quite a bit. I realize that there is no magic wand that is going to make my issues go away in an instant; its going to take time.

How much time ppl give ZOS before calling it a day and walking is going to vary of course. But as i have intimated AND straight-out said several times, we aren't there yet.

So again, sorry if my use of 'whining' bothers you. But it is what it is. Feel free to vilify me, i won't take offense.

Prospero_ESO

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

BlaBla Wall of Text

So in short you have the right to complain about the things you don´t like but when other people do it they are a bunch of whiners ? That´s an interesting point of view, maybe you should swap out arrogance for common sense. Would definitely help to not make you look like a complete [snip].

Moderator Edit: Removed cursing.

Obscure

@malikwalker_ESO
Think we're muddling the point here: Is ESO's monthly sub justified? Why?

Subjective opinion in terms of a consumer base filled with jaded, "now" generation thinking is extremely valid. That's the state of the market no matter what you or I consider a valid justification. You yourself established a subjective waiting period for showing improvement (three months) without any objective reasoning to support that. Others simply have a much shorter waiting period for their demands from a product to be met, and that is just the reality of it.

This brings us to the real answer to the question which is, objectively, No, it is not justified. What a gamer can purchase for $15 a month on services like Steam, is factually more content at a higher quality than ZOS has presented with the subscription (see for yourself). I personally can justify it to myself, but that is based purely on my own perspective. If we entertain my subjective opinion as valid we must entertain every subjective opinion as valid which means every answer would be correct:
"Is ESO sub fee justified?"
"I like sweetrolls"
"Ummm...good enough!"

tawok

ShinChuck wrote: »

10 people voted "LOL", to show that OP was silly and laughable.

18, as of this point, have voiced support, with 16 agrees and 2 insightful.

You can be as "LOL" all you want to try to be dismissive, but if 18/28 people, nearly twice your number, shares OP's concern, then there's a problem, one shared by a greater number than you.

Drawing conclusions based on internet points. Bad.

If anything, this should be a poll. People don't feel compelled to "vote" with LOLs, awesomes, or whatevers. They'd vote on a concrete poll. Also, the usage of these buttons is highly subject to what you believe in them, I personally feel like LOL is "LOL youre a jackass", but it seems others use it as a "LOL you troll gud!"

SinisterJoint

ShinChuck wrote: »

10 people voted "LOL", to show that OP was silly and laughable.

18, as of this point, have voiced support, with 16 agrees and 2 insightful.

You can be as "LOL" all you want to try to be dismissive, but if 18/28 people, nearly twice your number, shares OP's concern, then there's a problem, one shared by a greater number than you.

People LOL at his post because of the crap he put in there. Some points are valid sure.

But over half of the stuff he is "demanding" doesn't and hasn't launched with any other mmo to date. So while you think what you are saying is solid, its not.

The op IS silly and laughable. he comes off as a "want it now" generation baby and it's sad really. What's more sad is the state in which gamers are now a days.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Prospero_ESO wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

BlaBla Wall of Text

So in short you have the right to complain about the things you don´t like but when other people do it they are a bunch of whiners ? That´s an interesting point of view, maybe you should swap out arrogance for common sense. Would definitely help to not make you look like a complete [snip].

You are being reductive.

Anyone with a valid sub can and should voice concerns whenever they like. But when you are whining(see my take on that in the 'BlaBla Wall of Text') then you shouldn't be surprised when you get called on it.

And it really makes me chuckle a bit to be called a a [snip] for advocating a little temperance. But i did say that it was cool to do so, so carry on

Moderator Edit: Removed swearing.

gronbek

SinisterJoint wrote: »

ShinChuck wrote: »

10 people voted "LOL", to show that OP was silly and laughable.

18, as of this point, have voiced support, with 16 agrees and 2 insightful.

You can be as "LOL" all you want to try to be dismissive, but if 18/28 people, nearly twice your number, shares OP's concern, then there's a problem, one shared by a greater number than you.

People LOL at his post because of the crap he put in there. Some points are valid sure.

But over half of the stuff he is "demanding" doesn't and hasn't launched with any other mmo to date. So while you think what you are saying is solid, its not.

The op IS silly and laughable. he comes off as a "want it now" generation baby and it's sad really. What's more sad is the state in which gamers are now a days.

Except perhaps player housing, I dont think I am silly to request the other stuff in the OP. They are not remarkable things. A few of them like underwater and stealing should be standard in a elderscrolls game since they are connected to the races skills.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

@malikwalker_ESO
Think we're muddling the point here: Is ESO's monthly sub justified? Why?

Subjective opinion in terms of a consumer base filled with jaded, "now" generation thinking is extremely valid. That's the state of the market no matter what you or I consider a valid justification. You yourself established a subjective waiting period for showing improvement (three months) without any objective reasoning to support that. Others simply have a much shorter waiting period for their demands from a product to be met, and that is just the reality of it.

This brings us to the real answer to the question which is, objectively, No, it is not justified. What a gamer can purchase for $15 a month on services like Steam, is factually more content at a higher quality than ZOS has presented with the subscription (see for yourself). I personally can justify it to myself, but that is based purely on my own perspective. If we entertain my subjective opinion as valid we must entertain every subjective opinion as valid which means every answer would be correct:
"Is ESO sub fee justified?"
"I like sweetrolls"
"Ummm...good enough!"

Fair enough. I prolly should have just saved my comments and PM'd them to the posters i was directly addressing, but meh.

dale0404

Psychotius wrote: »

On the subject of swimming underwater, my character is deathly afraid of even getting in the water. Considering he is wearing a ton of armor, apparently carrying a horse, anywhere between 40-90 items in his bag, etc. It's been a true wonder that he hasn't been underwater yet.

Giggle.

ZOS_AlexD

Hi everyone. This is a friendly reminder that discussions should remain civil and constructive. We do not expect everyone to agree on all points, but resorting to jabs and personal comments is never appropriate. Please refrain from doing so and keep your comments and responses on topic. Thank you.

Kapazo

gronbek wrote: »

I mean, compared to certain other MMO titles out there what does TESO offer for the monthly cost? Not much in my opinion.
- No housing
- No auction house
- No underwater system argonians
- No consequence system stealing
- No SLI support
- Game design that totally break immersion in public areas
- Broken loot
- Good combat system
- Non explorable areas, invincible walls.
- Low res textures world objects
- Limited endgame
- Bots problem not solved, getting worse
- No dedicated EU server
- Bugs, too many

A rushed product incomplete in my opinion

My mum told me to have patience. It's about realising that when things aren't going the way you want them to, or you don't have inspiration, it will come.

SinisterJoint

gronbek wrote: »

SinisterJoint wrote: »

ShinChuck wrote: »

10 people voted "LOL", to show that OP was silly and laughable.

18, as of this point, have voiced support, with 16 agrees and 2 insightful.

You can be as "LOL" all you want to try to be dismissive, but if 18/28 people, nearly twice your number, shares OP's concern, then there's a problem, one shared by a greater number than you.

People LOL at his post because of the crap he put in there. Some points are valid sure.

But over half of the stuff he is "demanding" doesn't and hasn't launched with any other mmo to date. So while you think what you are saying is solid, its not.

The op IS silly and laughable. he comes off as a "want it now" generation baby and it's sad really. What's more sad is the state in which gamers are now a days.

Except perhaps player housing, I dont think I am silly to request the other stuff in the OP. They are not remarkable things. A few of them like underwater and stealing should be standard in a elderscrolls game since they are connected to the races skills.

gronbek wrote: »

- No housing -covered
- No auction house - a better trading system is needed (like personal stores)
- No underwater system argonians - What is underwater swimming going to bring to the table? What kind of excitement? Nothing... you are asking for something that will add nothing of value to the game...
- No consequence system stealing - Said to be in a future patch
- No SLI support -- Name me 3 mmo's that support SLI
- Game design that totally break immersion in public areas - This needs some explaining.
- Broken loot - How? What?
- Good combat system - This systems combat is great, just needs some bug tweeks.
- Non explorable areas, invincible walls. EVERY mmo has invisible walls... the map has to end somewhere....
- Low res textures world objects -- IDK about you but my textures and resolutions are just fine. Game looks great
- Limited endgame - THis always comes up in every new mmo that launches. Name one MMO (aside from everquest) that had tons of end game content on release
- Bots problem not solved, getting worse -- everyone mmo, especially newly launched ones have bot problems. Its just how it is.
- No dedicated EU server -- They said it will be moving to EU soon... read more updates.
- Bugs, too many -- just like any other newly launched MMO, bugs are gonna happen

A rushed product incomplete in my opinion

What other ES game has had underwater swimming? none

They said that stealing and npc killing will come later. The fact remains that you are asking for tons of things (minus the AH) that other mmo's do the same thing. Which is release in later content patches or expansion packs. Why should ESO be held under much higher scrutiny?

One Two

The EU server is my biggest problem

Sunrock

gronbek wrote: »

I mean, compared to certain other MMO titles out there what does TESO offer for the monthly cost? Not much in my opinion.
- No housing
- No auction house
- No underwater system argonians
- No consequence system stealing
- No SLI support
- Game design that totally break immersion in public areas
- Broken loot
- Good combat system
- Non explorable areas, invincible walls.
- Low res textures world objects
- Limited endgame
- Bots problem not solved, getting worse
- No dedicated EU server
- Bugs, too many

A rushed product incomplete in my opinion

Man I really rolled my eyes when I red this. Lets go through it point by point on what makes this so naive.

- No housing. No MMO ever have launched with this.
- No auction house. Because we have a guild store.
- No underwater system argonians. So? Allot of MMOs don't have that.
- No consequence system stealing. What? they have not even put in the thief guild yet...
- No SLI support. Very few MMOs suport this at launch.
- Game design that totally break immersion in public areas. Your own opinion and not a fact.
- Broken loot. What are you on about? Just because they dont do loot like in WoW does not mean it's broken.
- Good combat system. Sure but could have been better. Especially better balanced between class abilities.
- Non explorable areas, invincible walls. Exist in 100% of all MMOs
- Low res textures world objects: Also a feature very few MMOs launch with.
- Limited endgame: Can be sad about 100% of all MMOs
- Bots problem not solved, getting worse: No its not getting worse... It has been better then it was during the first 2-3 weeks. But allot more can be done.
- No dedicated EU server. Yea what's up with this. PvP lag sucks.
- Bugs, too many. It was too many bugs but most bugs I see now is because of all the addons I use screw with the client. Give us a better standard UI with more customizations.

srfrogg23

gronbek wrote: »

I mean, compared to certain other MMO titles out there what does TESO offer for the monthly cost? Not much in my opinion.
- No housing
- No auction house
- No underwater system argonians
- No consequence system stealing
- No SLI support
- Game design that totally break immersion in public areas
- Broken loot
- Good combat system
- Non explorable areas, invincible walls.
- Low res textures world objects
- Limited endgame
- Bots problem not solved, getting worse
- No dedicated EU server
- Bugs, too many

A rushed product incomplete in my opinion

WoW is often regarded as the "greatest" or "most successful" MMO on the market. While I love WoW and am paying for 2 sub fees on account of both its and ESOs existence, I have also been playing World of Warcraft since the day it released in 2004.

Want to guess how many of those things that you just mentioned were in WoW within the first two years after its release?

3

-The Auction House (which was a mess)
-Limited Endgame (YAY 40 Man Raids or World PVP... seriously, that was the max level content for the first year)
-Persistent Bot/Spammer problems for over a year

That game has been out for going on 10 years and it still does not have some of those things. This post is an exercise in highly unrealistic expectations. Just to drive the point home- If launch day Vanilla WoW were re-released today, with the competition currently on the market, that game would immediately be flamed in the "do not buy" hells. So, here is my point by point address to your post:

- No housing:
-->Many people don't care about housing, so this is a personal turn off for you. It has also been stated that at some point in the future that there will be housing so you will be able to do that in the future.
- No auction house:
-->The Auction Houses are called Guild Stores in this game. Using a single AH for a Mega Server is a surefire way to destroy the economy. EVERYBODY is on the same server, and the AH would be saturated with anything of value until it is no longer considered valuable- Bad idea.
- No underwater system argonians:
-->I'm not seeing why this is a necessity, so therefore, this is another one of your personal preferences. I've always found underwater combat/exploration to be a bit cumbersome in any game, whether it be an MMO or otherwise.
- No consequence system stealing:
--This has been announced and will be added in the near future- hopefully in a way that is not conducive to griefing.
- No SLI support:
-->I play on a Mac, so I am going to assume that since I'm not familiar with the acronym (and haven't heard it from anyone else) that this is a PC only thing and doesn't seem to be a major issue amongst the larger player base.
- Game design that totally break immersion in public areas:
-->This is by far the worst point. MMOs by their very nature are immersion breaking. People are all over the place. I'm sorry, but if you login to an MMO expecting the immersion of a single-player game then you should just prepare now for a world of disappointment. EVERY MMO IS IMMERSION BREAKING!
- Broken loot:
-->Prove that one. I don't even know what that means. The loot I get seems perfectly functional and very similar to the design philosophy of other games. I really think you're just nit-picking.
- Good combat system:
-->I like it too.
- Non explorable areas, invincible walls:
-->Welcome to the world of video games... Every "open world" game has this, MMOs are not any different, unless you like environments that are designed to look like fishbowls.
- Low res textures world objects:
-->Nit-picking, or bad computer, I play with the resolution set to max and textures rarely look "low res" unless I get stupidly close to them.
- Limited endgame:
--Craglorn is coming, along with a whole slew of other features and content, this is an MMO, these games evolve over time.
- Bots problem not solved, getting worse:
-->Anecdotally speaking? I haven't seen a bot since I was level 10. They are mostly concentrated at low levels because the inherent game design makes it incredibly difficult for anyone without a pulse to progress much further than that. Aside from being annoying, they haven't caused any permanent harm to the game and they are actually decreasing in number- Again, Welcome to the world of MMOs...
- No dedicated EU server:
-->That sucks, give it time.
- Bugs, too many:
-->Since when? I haven't been stalled by a broken quest or game stopping bug since patch 1.07 hit. Do you know what confirmation bias is?

starkerealm

SinisterJoint wrote: »

What other ES game has had underwater swimming? none

You don't think Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are Elder Scrolls games?

b.jason38_ESO

Here's what I read....

...bla bla bla "Doesn't have..." bla bla bla... "not worth the fee..." bla bla bla "not ready for launch... bla blah waaaaahh...

"But I still pay for it and play it."

Now who's problem is that?

Grampa_Smurf

lol, all I read was I want I want, imagine an mmo that come out and has everything you want right from the start. You would complain about that as well, no matter what is done there will be players that are not happy.

This game has only been out a short time they are fixing the bugs from the most annoying down. Bots will be getting a work over soon enough but they will never get rid of them no mmo has been able to and they never will, It is just a matter of thinning them down.

starkerealm

srfrogg23 wrote: »

- No SLI support:
-->I play on a Mac, so I am going to assume that since I'm not familiar with the acronym (and haven't heard it from anyone else) that this is a PC only thing and doesn't seem to be a major issue amongst the larger player base.

SLI stands for Scalable Link Interface (I actually had to look up the acronym, since it's very rarely unpacked), it's a system that allows you to bridge two graphics cards together, slaving their output, and increasing overall performance.

Nvidia uses SLI, ATI uses Crossfire, but, they're both the same thing, two (or more) graphics cards slaved together into a single output.

I'm not sure if it can be done on Macs. On PCs it is a small, but growing, chunk of the population.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

- Bugs, too many:
-->Since when? I haven't been stalled by a broken quest or game stopping bug since patch 1.07 hit. Do you know what confirmation bias is?

To steal an old joke: now that I know what it is, I see it everywhere.

starkerealm

srfrogg23 wrote: »

- Bugs, too many:
-->Since when? I haven't been stalled by a broken quest or game stopping bug since patch 1.07 hit. Do you know what confirmation bias is?

Actually, in interests of giving you a legitimate answer here it's not confirmation bias, it's self selection.

Confirmation bias is where you know (or believe) a thing is true so your brain retains information that supports that thing while ejecting information that disproves it, without properly evaluating the information.

Self selection is where you choose to participate in something because you have an interest in it. (Usually, we're talking about surveys, but forums suffer from this as well.)

Thing is, if someone does have issues with the game, they're more likely to come on here and seek help or complain about them rather then just sit at home playing the game. It does create a situation where issues are overrepresented, but the users aren't distorting their own individual experience.