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Monthly cost justified at the current SOTG
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Breg_Magol✭✭✭✭For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!0 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭I'm not defending Zenimax here but... name one major mmo that was in a superior state by this time after launch please. Even wow was a mess for months. I just went back and looked at my account history and there were 12 credits between my free month in 11/2004 and my first paid month because there was so much downtime and so many bugs. Wow still has major issues after each content patch to the point that no one raids on patch day. Not sure what you are expecting of a brand new mmo when a well established one can't even get it right on a patch.
The only mmo I can say was in a remotely better state shortly after launch was The Secret World but even that had bugs and lots of downtime.
He gets it.Marketing executives have way too much power over game design.
If you mean in the way they directly or indirectly help to come up with asinine product release dates that are not connected at all to whether a product is ready to go or not, then i'm right there with you. And i'd add that the sentiment goes for marketing execs from many other industries as well.chokesonastraweb17_ESO wrote: »I myself am teetering on cancelling my sub for a month or longer, the enjoyment I got from the game has been seriously injured by many issues working together to sour my experience. I however still give ESO time to improve before I allow myself regret for wasting money on it.
I give them time until the NA release of Blade & soul, and then move on, see the 50+ euros spent on their product spilled milk and make sure none of my friends will make the mistake supporting zenimax products ever again, but that still is only if they do not manage to fix the botting issue, bugged skills and horrible stability issues in specific areas, or die a miserable death due lack of real players or take the money they made and run to Bahamas.
Until then I watch over, hoping them to improve, or at least try to do so. Can't say I keep my hopes too high because the more time passes the more this game is looking like a scam played on Bethesda to get their popular IP as a hook to steal money from the fans of the series.
I might be wrong, I hope I am wrong.
Fair opinion and and time-frame to improve. But i do have to say, its a decidedly unfair to demand ZOS 'fix the botting issue' in a few months (i assume that time-frame since last i heard BnS was dropping 'sometime in '14')when no other company has managed to do it in over a decade.
EDIT: To clarify, in the last response, i mean 100% RMT eradication. Some companies have done very good at limiting RMT activity in their properties, but none have stamped it out completely. CCP and Square-Enix come to mind and two companies with very aggressiv anti-RMT stances.Edited by Spiritreaver_ESO on 21 May 2014 09:190 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
At least I can enjoy my lattes, and I'm not constantly being ambushed by advertisers, screaming in my ear, while simultaneously chewing through everything on the buffet line and trying to sell it back to me.
That... metaphor went someplace weird.Edited by starkerealm on 21 May 2014 09:170 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
At least I can enjoy my lattes, and I'm not constantly being ambushed by advertisers, screaming in my ear, while simultaneously chewing through everything on the buffet line and trying to sell it back to me.
That... metaphor went someplace weird.
Lol, very.0 -
Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
I spend 15 dollars a month on a number of things too. Yet if I go out to eat and that restaurant brings me food that is spoiled, I get a refund. I know I sound entitled to get a refund for a product not fit for human-consumption, I am selfish that way. Seriously though if you pay for something you expect something. I suppose its comes down to standards, and listen more power to you for eating food that will make you puke later!
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Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
I think your latte's are expensive and over priced!0 -
Why are people so willing to give them time to correct there errors? If all things were equal then sure I understand that logic. But its not equal. ESO didn't say hey guys we are launching a product six months to a year too early so we will understand if you don't purchase our product.
The fact is these companies sell an image of completion. They market it as though its complete and awesome. Yet when I hear people say they have issues with the problems in this game but they are willing to give them time, it makes me aware of how a company can get away with these devious practices.
They didn't care enough about you the customer when they decided to release a product early to maximize profits. They didn't care enough about you the customer when they decided to charge "real money" for a "Mount" in a subscription based game , even though they said there logic for having a subscription based game was so that people could have access to everything and not barriers that cost money to access.
If they don't care about you, you shouldn't care enough about them, period!3 -
Yasha✭✭✭✭LexonLightbringer wrote: »Why are people so willing to give them time to correct there errors? If all things were equal then sure I understand that logic. But its not equal. ESO didn't say hey guys we are launching a product six months to a year too early so we will understand if you don't purchase our product.
The fact is these companies sell an image of completion. They market it as though its complete and awesome. Yet when I hear people say they have issues with the problems in this game but they are willing to give them time, it makes me aware of how a company can get away with these devious practices.
They didn't care enough about you the customer when they decided to release a product early to maximize profits. They didn't care enough about you the customer when they decided to charge "real money" for a "Mount" in a subscription based game , even though they said there logic for having a subscription based game was so that people could have access to everything and not barriers that cost money to access.
If they don't care about you, you shouldn't care enough about them, period!
I think they care, and they love their game and are passionate about making it the best. I am glad I was able to buy a horse, because it costs so much to buy in game. But I don't think its worth paying a sub for compared to what I can get in a non-sub game.0 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭LexonLightbringer wrote: »Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
I spend 15 dollars a month on a number of things too. Yet if I go out to eat and that restaurant brings me food that is spoiled, I get a refund. I know I sound entitled to get a refund for a product not fit for human-consumption, I am selfish that way. Seriously though if you pay for something you expect something. I suppose its comes down to standards, and listen more power to you for eating food that will make you puke later!
Not exactly a fair comparison.
You pay for a complete meal. If it is not complete(missing sides, under-cooked, spoiled, etc), you send it back for another or your money back. An MMO is never complete until the servers are shutdown-its always a work in progress.
True, some MMOs are launched more fleshed out than some. But honestly, ZOS isn't doing that bad. There are some areas that they REALLY need to improve on with a quickness. But the launch could have been much, much, much worse and i think people need to dial back the Veruca Salt-esque mindset a bit and take note of that.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LexonLightbringer wrote: »Why are people so willing to give them time to correct there errors?
I enjoyed this game. For a brief moment there, coming out of beta, and at launch, it was a lot of fun...
Then, the bots happened. And ZoS started throwing nerfs left and right to deal with them... except, the bots didn't really care, and the only ones getting hurt were the players.
Now, my gear deteriorates almost as soon as I start questing, provisioning resources are too scarce to even think about eating anything, and if you kill a boss, you better make sure you don't accidentally kill another one for an undisclosed amount of time, because then they'll think you're a bot. To say nothing of the bots tearing through the quest zones I'm trying to do killing everything that moves and keeping me from advancing.
I liked the game, then Zenimax started punishing me for the bots, and, honestly, I'm not happy about that.
I want the game I bought, back. But, I guess, that's not happening.1 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭LexonLightbringer wrote: »Why are people so willing to give them time to correct there errors? If all things were equal then sure I understand that logic. But its not equal. ESO didn't say hey guys we are launching a product six months to a year too early so we will understand if you don't purchase our product.
The fact is these companies sell an image of completion. They market it as though its complete and awesome. Yet when I hear people say they have issues with the problems in this game but they are willing to give them time, it makes me aware of how a company can get away with these devious practices.
They didn't care enough about you the customer when they decided to release a product early to maximize profits. They didn't care enough about you the customer when they decided to charge "real money" for a "Mount" in a subscription based game , even though they said there logic for having a subscription based game was so that people could have access to everything and not barriers that cost money to access.
If they don't care about you, you shouldn't care enough about them, period!
Well shoot, i guess they should just shut down the gaming industry in general then. And do it ASAP. Because i haven't bought a 100% ready for release game, MMO or otherwise, in decades. There is always something that could be better, toned down, tweaked, etc. Shoot even single player console games have extensive patches released for them nowadays.
Seriously, i think the the last time i bought a game that met every expectation, was bug free, and fired on all cylinders was back in 1995 or 96 when i bought Chrono Trigger for the SNES.
Its normal and expected that people have standards. But its also normal and expected that people keep their standards from getting out of hand with a good dose of realism.0 -
I think they care, and they love their game and are passionate about making it the best. I am glad I was able to buy a horse, because it costs so much to buy in game. But I don't think its worth paying a sub for compared to what I can get in a non-sub game.
Why do you think its cost so much to buy a horse in-game? Why do you think mounts are not provided as quest items? Its because they wanted you to feel like you needed to buy a "Horse" with real money in a subscription MMO. Yeah they Care!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by LexonLightbringer on 21 May 2014 11:041 -
malikwalker_ESO wrote: »LexonLightbringer wrote: »Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
I spend 15 dollars a month on a number of things too. Yet if I go out to eat and that restaurant brings me food that is spoiled, I get a refund. I know I sound entitled to get a refund for a product not fit for human-consumption, I am selfish that way. Seriously though if you pay for something you expect something. I suppose its comes down to standards, and listen more power to you for eating food that will make you puke later!
Not exactly a fair comparison.
You pay for a complete meal. If it is not complete(missing sides, under-cooked, spoiled, etc), you send it back for another or your money back. An MMO is never complete until the servers are shutdown-its always a work in progress.
True, some MMOs are launched more fleshed out than some. But honestly, ZOS isn't doing that bad. There are some areas that they REALLY need to improve on with a quickness. But the launch could have been much, much, much worse and i think people need to dial back the Veruca Salt-esque mindset a bit and take note of that.
I think you can make an argument that ESO is missing the "Sides" you would expect in a "Complete Meal". Just for reference we are not talking about the Dessert, or in other words the additional content that comes later, we are talking about the normal stuff that's included with your meal.
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Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭
Late-ish reply. Had to do my morning run and all that jazz.LexonLightbringer wrote: »malikwalker_ESO wrote: »LexonLightbringer wrote: »Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
I spend 15 dollars a month on a number of things too. Yet if I go out to eat and that restaurant brings me food that is spoiled, I get a refund. I know I sound entitled to get a refund for a product not fit for human-consumption, I am selfish that way. Seriously though if you pay for something you expect something. I suppose its comes down to standards, and listen more power to you for eating food that will make you puke later!
Not exactly a fair comparison.
You pay for a complete meal. If it is not complete(missing sides, under-cooked, spoiled, etc), you send it back for another or your money back. An MMO is never complete until the servers are shutdown-its always a work in progress.
True, some MMOs are launched more fleshed out than some. But honestly, ZOS isn't doing that bad. There are some areas that they REALLY need to improve on with a quickness. But the launch could have been much, much, much worse and i think people need to dial back the Veruca Salt-esque mindset a bit and take note of that.
I think you can make an argument that ESO is missing the "Sides" you would expect in a "Complete Meal". Just for reference we are not talking about the Dessert, or in other words the additional content that comes later, we are talking about the normal stuff that's included with your meal.
OK
You want to stick with the food analogy, fine. Doesn't make the expectations some people are expressing any less unrealistic.
We agree on how one reacts when they buy a meal. They expect it to be complete. We've established a consensus of sorts on what 'complete' is. But you are trying to liken a purchasing a MMO at launch and shortly thereafter, in this case of course TESO, to purchasing a complete meal. And that comparison just isn't a fair one.
Sticking as close as possible to your complete meal analogy, buying a copy/setting up a sub for TESO is most closely likened to buying say an Apple Tree sapling. You buy the sapling and you know up front that given time, you are going to get lots of delicious apples if you properly care for and maintain it. You don't buy the sapling, plant it, and then expect a bushel of apples the next day.
I'll say it again for clarification: MMOs are works in progress. Every single one that has open servers and players on them.
A WIP is not a completed item/service/etc. It is an ongoing project that is measured in good stretches of time, not a single moment. It is disingenuous at best to allow yourself to think otherwise; purposefully delusional at worst.
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malikwalker_ESO wrote: »
Late-ish reply. Had to do my morning run and all that jazz.LexonLightbringer wrote: »malikwalker_ESO wrote: »LexonLightbringer wrote: »Breg_Magol wrote: »For he price of 2 Latte's a month!! Of course it's worth it.
If the developers make money out of this more power to them. What do people want .. something for nothing?
Happy developers and happy subscribers .. that's what I want. I'm a happy subscriber, I sometimes routinely spend more than $15 on lunch .. I need to curtail my consumption one day a week (at least) .. happy to pay a subscription!
I spend 15 dollars a month on a number of things too. Yet if I go out to eat and that restaurant brings me food that is spoiled, I get a refund. I know I sound entitled to get a refund for a product not fit for human-consumption, I am selfish that way. Seriously though if you pay for something you expect something. I suppose its comes down to standards, and listen more power to you for eating food that will make you puke later!
Not exactly a fair comparison.
You pay for a complete meal. If it is not complete(missing sides, under-cooked, spoiled, etc), you send it back for another or your money back. An MMO is never complete until the servers are shutdown-its always a work in progress.
True, some MMOs are launched more fleshed out than some. But honestly, ZOS isn't doing that bad. There are some areas that they REALLY need to improve on with a quickness. But the launch could have been much, much, much worse and i think people need to dial back the Veruca Salt-esque mindset a bit and take note of that.
I think you can make an argument that ESO is missing the "Sides" you would expect in a "Complete Meal". Just for reference we are not talking about the Dessert, or in other words the additional content that comes later, we are talking about the normal stuff that's included with your meal.
OK
You want to stick with the food analogy, fine. Doesn't make the expectations some people are expressing any less unrealistic.
We agree on how one reacts when they buy a meal. They expect it to be complete. We've established a consensus of sorts on what 'complete' is. But you are trying to liken a purchasing a MMO at launch and shortly thereafter, in this case of course TESO, to purchasing a complete meal. And that comparison just isn't a fair one.
Sticking as close as possible to your complete meal analogy, buying a copy/setting up a sub for TESO is most closely likened to buying say an Apple Tree sapling. You buy the sapling and you know up front that given time, you are going to get lots of delicious apples if you properly care for and maintain it. You don't buy the sapling, plant it, and then expect a bushel of apples the next day.
I'll say it again for clarification: MMOs are works in progress. Every single one that has open servers and players on them.
A WIP is not a completed item/service/etc. It is an ongoing project that is measured in good stretches of time, not a single moment. It is disingenuous at best to allow yourself to think otherwise; purposefully delusional at worst.
OK
But what if you bought an "Apple Tree sapling" and it didn't provide you with a first year harvest? The "Seller" guaranteed you a first year harvest, yet you were not provided one. What if you were provided a first year harvest yet it was "slim pickings". Even though you wouldn't know until "harvest time" if you were going to get a good crop, I am certain there would be signs throughout the year that would suggest some "bad apples".
This particular food analogy is very different then the "complete meal" one. With the tree you have to wait and see, with the meal you know what you are getting. So lets break it down. The "Complete Meal" is the retail version of the game with the 30days included. The tree is the service after the initial purchase. They are entirely two different things.Edited by LexonLightbringer on 21 May 2014 12:230 -
starkerealm wrote: »Okay... no offense guys, but the food analogy is starting to creep me out.
LOL!
Fair Enough!
But Why?
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LexonLightbringer wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Okay... no offense guys, but the food analogy is starting to creep me out.
LOL!
Fair Enough!
But Why?
Every time I think about participating, I inevitably think of the bots, and the whole thing goes someplace horrifying.0 -
starkerealm wrote: »LexonLightbringer wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Okay... no offense guys, but the food analogy is starting to creep me out.
LOL!
Fair Enough!
But Why?
Every time I think about participating, I inevitably think of the bots, and the whole thing goes someplace horrifying.
lol0 -
Why I am still here and subscribing is because it is a new mmo with potential. One of the few mmo's with a somewhat mature theme. And because of the great combat.
But I still don't think it justifies the monthly cost because it is unfinished and missing a few major systems and has some wrong design decisions.
Fine, but do us a big favor..stop whining and putting down the game if you are going to subscribe and be here. You 'Spoil Child' types think what you have to say is welcomed and constructive; it is not because your manner is caustic and toxic. You did speak in absolutes, insinuating the game is not worth the subscription, so don't subscribe till it meet your lofty standards. Simple.
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fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »Why I am still here and subscribing is because it is a new mmo with potential. One of the few mmo's with a somewhat mature theme. And because of the great combat.
But I still don't think it justifies the monthly cost because it is unfinished and missing a few major systems and has some wrong design decisions.
Fine, but do us a big favor..stop whining and putting down the game if you are going to subscribe and be here. You 'Spoil Child' types think what you have to say is welcomed and constructive; it is not because your manner is caustic and toxic. You did speak in absolutes, insinuating the game is not worth the subscription, so don't subscribe till it meet your lofty standards. Simple.
The developers said it should meet his expectations, what now?2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LexonLightbringer wrote: »fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »Why I am still here and subscribing is because it is a new mmo with potential. One of the few mmo's with a somewhat mature theme. And because of the great combat.
But I still don't think it justifies the monthly cost because it is unfinished and missing a few major systems and has some wrong design decisions.
Fine, but do us a big favor..stop whining and putting down the game if you are going to subscribe and be here. You 'Spoil Child' types think what you have to say is welcomed and constructive; it is not because your manner is caustic and toxic. You did speak in absolutes, insinuating the game is not worth the subscription, so don't subscribe till it meet your lofty standards. Simple.
The developers said it should meet his expectations, what now?
Well, technically there was the, "you will be disappointed," quote from someone Matt Firor.Edited by starkerealm on 21 May 2014 12:440 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭I've not seen a recent MMO released in a worse state than this but i've also not had so much fun in a new MMO as this. I'm enjoying it despite all the issues for the time being. I took a 6 month sub out.
Whether that gets renewed does depend on some pretty big issues being dealt with concerning grouping, bots and the nonsense VR, now go fight for your enemies end-game.
I'm still rooting for ESO being a great long-term MMO home for me.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I missed it, but the level -45 players in Star Trek were somewhat unimpressed. There were some downright hilarious bugs at launch. Secret World was kinda a mess, but I can't remember how much of that was beta and how much was launch. TOR was a wreck in beta (I didn't play launch)... I feel like I'm forgetting one.steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »I've not seen a recent MMO released in a worse state than this but i've also not had so much fun in a new MMO as this. I'm enjoying it despite all the issues for the time being. I took a 6 month sub out.
Whether that gets renewed does depend on some pretty big issues being dealt with concerning grouping, bots and the nonsense VR, now go fight for your enemies end-game.
I'm still rooting for ESO being a great long-term MMO home for me.
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steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭If STO were like ESO at launch we'd have seen huge fleets of Bot-Ships. We didn't though.
STO didn't launch with no security and with a game design absolutely perfect for botting.
Not saying it wasn't unimpressive though. I like ESO much better. I'm just disappointed with having to pay to beta test it for them on the one hand, while fighting off a Bot Army with the other.0 -
Csidron✭roflcopter wrote: »My wife spends more than $15 a month on stuff I can't justify. I can't fathom why anyone would complain about $15 a month or justify it against something that is suppose to be entertainment.
If your not entertained.... don't play.
Save yourself a thread and $15 as I don't think this will ever meet your expectations.
FFS $15 a month -_-;
Moderator Edit: removed rude comment.Edited by ZOS_LeroyW on 21 May 2014 14:030 -
FrauPerchta✭✭✭The bugs that have been around since beta and have not even been admitted to by the Devs is what bothers me. Ignoring a game breaking bug won't fix it.0
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Demli✭Anyone remember the FFXIV 2.0 launch? When they didn't have a login queue, and there was no AFK auto-kick so people stayed logged in 24-hours a day meaning a lot of people couldn't even login. At least this game has been regularly available to play since launch.
MMOs are so complex, they're almost living breathing things. ESO is 30GB at launch (5GB for voice over). That's huge! MMOs are never "complete" when they're released. A game like this costs a lot to develop, and also takes a fair amount of time. You can keep thinking up ideas to add to the game, but this keeps pushing back the release date.
Now you're paying a monthly sub so they can continue to develop the game and add features. You don't sub for the features that are already there, you're investing in future features.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »If STO were like ESO at launch we'd have seen huge fleets of Bot-Ships. We didn't though.
STO didn't launch with no security and with a game design absolutely perfect for botting.
Not saying it wasn't unimpressive though. I like ESO much better. I'm just disappointed with having to pay to beta test it for them on the one hand, while fighting off a Bot Army with the other.
There were bots around in the early days, mostly in the clusters slurping up anomalies, as I recall. Though, STO was a lot more bot unfriendly than ESO's been.0