For the 'it's stupid hard' crowd

Sakiri

Not sure what he means there either.

Dagoth_Rac

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

The only really hard fight I've run across was in VR3 when getting ready to enter Alik'r there is a fight you have where you are in a tower, there are three statues pouring power into a shield. Two guys spawn, you drop them pretty quick and then a gargoyle spawns and comes in. I burned that gargoyle and his buddies at least a dozen times before realizing I had to be doing something REALLY wrong. So I let the pet go on him, left the room and ran down only to discover you have to drag the gargoyle through the statues...super easy fight I made much harder.

I am not VR yet, but just did that quest in the normal game (Level 30-ish). I knew I had to destroy those statues, but had no idea how. They seemed invulnerable. I thought if I defeated the enemies maybe the statues would become vulnerable. But the game kept spawning waves of skeletons and gargoyles. Maybe the statues are vulnerable between waves? No, and there is little to no pause between waves, anyway. I took down a few waves, but ran out of resources and was running away, hoping my magicka would regen. The gargoyle destroying the statue while chasing me was just dumb luck.

I actually LOVE fights like that, where it is super tough until you figure out the "trick". Then the light bulb goes off and you are all like, "Everybody chill the bleep out, I got this." I don't like fights where there is no trick, just a repetitive grind where winning is about a lucky streak of critical hits.

apterous

https://youtube.com/watch?v=pkSG9SuN5jE
here is my first attempt on "hard boss"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=KQAchUzX12Q
and here is another first attempt on "hard boss"

hamon

OmniDo wrote: »

I ran into the same frustration while attempting the Veteran Content version of the CradleCrush Arena fight.
Using my RANGED Templar Skills (Which is also my preferred method of combat, and MY preferred method is ALL that matters, since this game is allegedly supposed to allow you to 'Play the way you want') I was able to defeat the first two mobs without much difficulty.
The second set of three mobs; caster, melee, ranged, AND 2 summoned Melee Pets, proved mathematically impossible for me to defeat with my chosen set of ranged skills.
The solution: I used TWO Vampire abilities; (Invigorating Drain, Rank IV) on all 5 mobs, avoiding telegraphed attacks, and the Vampire Ultimate: (Devouring Swarm), and everything just fell down with impunity.

What bothers me is the fact that ANY class could have used the same two skills, and defeated the mobs with little effort, but using my own class skills, maxed out, proved impossible for my chosen set of skills and style of play.

I verified this with other players in the local area, all of whom stated that using an AoE Ultimate and using AoE Destruction Staff Abilities pretty much made it trivial.
Having to defer victory for an encounter to 2 non-class abilities, or an entire set of skills that have NOTHING to do with my chosen class, is irritating.

One might as well just be a vampire with Destruction Staff and a Restoration Staff, and scrap everything else except passives.
The result would be the same.

yes this is the homogenization effect ive been warning about for about 2 weeks now. an easily predictable effect of vet mode being too hard for various play styles.

for example i hear lots of things which i can summize by seeing and hearing discussed. that 1/ heavy armour no good. unless dk or tanking. 2/ destro staff is the ranged weapon of choice. bows are out with a few exceptions. NB.s who can use ranged syphons to self heal while bow using. but destro is still probably better.
destro/resto together using mostly weapon skills.
again minimizing the class skills for folk further homogenizing everyone.

sword and board is the way to melee unless your a sorc or Dk then it doesnt matter. again. it seems dks and sorcs actually have lots of nice class skills where other classes drop most of their class skills apart from one or 2 on a bar and stick weapon guild skills in. i know i used vampire/weapon and guild skills probably 70% and class skills 30% with a fair chuink of my class skills utterly useless.

all this creates cookie cutters , or homogenized play. Rather than diversity and satisfaction of doing it your way.

Phazzle

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Phazzle wrote: »

So, based on the results of the poll that I posted last night (unless there is a drastic change). I think that we can final put this discussion to rest.

39% said that the fights are 'a little too hard' while only 14% said that they were 'nearly impossible.' The remaining 44% to 45% said that they were either 'perfectly balanced' or too easy.

So, to whoever accused me of being a 'vocal minority' it is actually the 'stupid hard' crowd that is the vocal minority here. 86% of the community are not tearing their hair out about the difficulty of the fights. And, while it is clear that the fights need to be tweaked, the sky is not falling.

I don't have a problem with people making their ideas know, but what I do have a problem with is when players mislead other players with their antics. When you do that, you are only hurting the community and the game.

My own answer to the poll would be 'a few fights are a little too hard but most are fine'...

But what I would point out is that while your results may reflect opinion on these forums, we have to ask what sort of people are posting & voting here? Probably those who are more 'into' their games and internet blah... What percentage of all ESO players do we make up and how balanced a sample group are we? How many Oblivion or Skyrim players bought it on spec & just gave up on some fight they could not win without even considering posting about it here? And how many have cruised through all content equally quiet here?

We, and ZOS, could very likely be mistaken to assume that views here are necessarily a true reflection of player opinion... all 100% of people on your poll are part of the vocal minority

Not trying to be snotty just trying to offer a perspective.

The problem with that viewpoint is that saying 'those who are more 'into' their games,' are the ones who post here is an unsupported assertion.

Zhoyzu

the games boss fights (except for harvesters when they are in tight quarters) are actually quite easy.

alot of the issues people are probably having is they put no thought into their skill bars or how they would approach and just get upset when the game doesnt get easy to accommodate their lack of thought.

I find alot of the boss fights to be boring. too much kiting and just not dying.


start playing smart people

Ysne58

Doesn't matter how smart you play when your controls glitch out. Which is happening to me in the prismatic core quest. And yes I did file 3 /bugs in row on it.

Sakiri

Thing I take major offense to is locking 2/3 of the game behind an arbitrary skill gate.

So what if its supposed to teach you skills? Most folks that wont use them there wont use them later. I can stand in most Bad even at vr2 without dying iutside of elites and if I had my partner with me even that wouldnt be necessary becsuse things would die faster.

Theres two schools of thought on why soloing is needed and I find both to be bs.

First is that it keeps bots out of VR content. Except theyre already there.

Second is that somehow its going to "make them learn" not to be "bad" or keep them out of "their(the "good" players)" content... except that most "bads" will just have someone do it for them. I saw this with warlock green fire, folks logging friends' accounts in to do it for them. Even saw someone selling that service. FOR A COSMETIC CHANGE.

I dont want to see it nerfed but theyll still do so. Its inevitable. Mandatory content behind an arbitrary "skill gate" pisses me off and I *can* complete it.

Id rather open it up to bringing a friend.

Grao

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

By "boss" I'm going to assume you mean the solo quests where you don't have the option to group and not the world bosses which are designed to be bested by more than one player?

Correct?

I ask because one of the things I see a lot of folks being upset about is the DKs can solo a number of world bosses where as other classes cannot. Fact is, though, these world bosses aren't designed to be soloed.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say any boss should be soloable by the "indigenous class skills". You mean without using weapon skills? Or guild skills? Or Vampire/Werewolf skills?

What exactly are "indigenous class skills?"

See, they think that the problem is that they can't solo the world bosses, not that DK's can do so... It is really interesting. Nerf the game instead of nerfing a class... Makes perfect sense XD

Ysne58

I haven't seen any arguments for soloing world bosses. It's the forced solo content that needs to be made groupable.

Sakiri

Grao wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

By "boss" I'm going to assume you mean the solo quests where you don't have the option to group and not the world bosses which are designed to be bested by more than one player?

Correct?

I ask because one of the things I see a lot of folks being upset about is the DKs can solo a number of world bosses where as other classes cannot. Fact is, though, these world bosses aren't designed to be soloed.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say any boss should be soloable by the "indigenous class skills". You mean without using weapon skills? Or guild skills? Or Vampire/Werewolf skills?

What exactly are "indigenous class skills?"

See, they think that the problem is that they can't solo the world bosses, not that DK's can do so... It is really interesting. Nerf the game instead of nerfing a class... Makes perfect sense XD

We... arent talking about world bosses...

And my sorc can solo many of those. More than my melee dk can.

Aeradon

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO wrote: »

Hold my hand while I kill that spider.

This.

Embarrassing to admit but I had problems with Molag Bal titans with a Vamp4 NB DW/Bow. But I had all my skill lines close to 50 and 27 skill points to spare.

Instead of thinking of a way to kill them, I played around with different builds to see how depending on NB skills alone would fare against the last main quest boss.

I used the last few skills unlocked in the NB skill lines, but proven not effective. To my surprise, the results are as follows.

You can definitely kill Molag Bal and his titans with the unmorphed nature of NB basic skills. Regardless of your armor and whatever disadvantage you're at.

Shadow Cloak, Strife, and Assasin's Blade were respec-ed before and unmorphed when I used them. And these prove to be the only skills you need, regardless of weapon, to advance in the game. (Strife could be regarded as unbalanced)

methjester

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Wildstar combat makes me want to club a baby seal... it's fast, frenetic, feverish and fun at times... After a while it's extremely redundant, and questing is the same ol' same ol' quest-hub-hop "kill x of y" and then complete a story you never even read because they're all just that boring.

I haven't read any quests in ESO, because I just don't care. I have no investment. I'm here for the MMO.

As far as ESO quests go, they're all go here, talk to this guy, skip over 6-10 lines of voice overs, kill something/click something, go in some random hole... come back to me, repeat. And... Save each town you encounter while leveling. Yep, how groundshaking.

surlysmiles

the only thing that bothers me is that I'm not able to predict how hard something is going to be by its level marker in my journal.

Chirru

Sorry...I did not express myself clearly enough...
Yes, by Boss I mean the Solo bosses of the main quest. Not the world bosses.

As for weapon skills...everyone needs at least one of these. However, Vampire/Werewolf/Fighters guild and Mage guild abilities in my opinion are extras. They should not be necessary to defeat the main quest bosses and also should be just extras in PvE Veteran content.

As I look at general Veteran builds however I see that the majority of people use Vampire/ Fighters and Mage guild skills. Honestly, I advocate to do the same because the normal (even morphed) Class skills often are not good enough to fight at Veteran level.Right now me thinks it is almost compulsory to get these extra skills to be effective at Veteran level. It is this that in my opinion ought to be changed.

I think that the class skills, plus a weapon skill line, ought to be enough to get through the PvE part of the game at whatever level. Of course, PvP is a different thing altogether. In PvP these extra skills make a huge difference and that I think is only fair.

Anyhow..that is my opinion on the topic of the "It's stupid hard crowd."

Shaun98ca2

methjester wrote: »

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Wildstar combat makes me want to club a baby seal... it's fast, frenetic, feverish and fun at times... After a while it's extremely redundant, and questing is the same ol' same ol' quest-hub-hop "kill x of y" and then complete a story you never even read because they're all just that boring.

I haven't read any quests in ESO, because I just don't care. I have no investment. I'm here for the MMO.

As far as ESO quests go, they're all go here, talk to this guy, skip over 6-10 lines of voice overs, kill something/click something, go in some random hole... come back to me, repeat. And... Save each town you encounter while leveling. Yep, how groundshaking.

I would like to hear a quest that is groundshaking that HASNT been done before.

At least this game attempts to make the quests have meaning.

eventHandler

The only thing we need is something to tell you who killed you and with what ability or weapon damage. And hopefully it will give you enough info so that if you got hit with something that took 99% of your life in one hit and then a little slap killed you after, you'll see that useful part on what did the big hit not just the auto slap after it. And then you can effectively develop strategies to things without feeling like you are dying for no reason or that you have to search the web without being able to just pay attention to the fight itself to learn it.

I think that would be good to have, and hopefully stop some complainers when they can see oh I need to wear fire res as a vampire when standing in that cone of fire... or maybe move out of it. Kidding aside, there really are parts where its like wtf just one shot me?

I'm happy with the difficulty level though so far as a vr3, having done all the first three vet dungeons and the first couple zones of my 2nd alliance.

Sakiri

eventHandler wrote: »

The only thing we need is something to tell you who killed you and with what ability or weapon damage. And hopefully it will give you enough info so that if you got hit with something that took 99% of your life in one hit and then a little slap killed you after, you'll see that useful part on what did the big hit not just the auto slap after it. And then you can effectively develop strategies to things without feeling like you are dying for no reason or that you have to search the web without being able to just pay attention to the fight itself to learn it.

I think that would be good to have, and hopefully stop some complainers when they can see oh I need to wear fire res as a vampire when standing in that cone of fire... or maybe move out of it. Kidding aside, there really are parts where its like wtf just one shot me?

I'm happy with the difficulty level though so far as a vr3, having done all the first three vet dungeons and the first couple zones of my 2nd alliance.

Gonna be honest, it's very rare for me to go "wth killed me?"

I *know* what killed me.

As does my friend.

He just does *not* have the reaction time to move. Hell, half the time I hit a dodge key it doesn't do a damned thing either, even if I have the stamina for it.

So there's that.

eventHandler

Oh I didn't actually read the comments past the first page, and I was basically just responding to the OP with my post. When I said "the only thing we need," I didn't mean we don't need grouping/phasing to be overhauled. The grouping system feels like they made stub functions and just wrote // TODO write grouping code later. The systems do not work together at all as they are now. I hope they overhaul them in 1.2, that seems reasonable to expect them to do by then. Not perfectly finished maybe, but at least significantly improved.

I'd love to be able to go help people do their solo quests when they need it, because I know a lot of people don't like challenges the way I do and I do like helping out for them. In an MMO you should have a reasonable expectation to have friends with you for absolutely every part of the game if you want them there, but I do like having instanced quests so that you can do them alone if thats' what you want also... I hate having some group rush a boss that is meant to be killed by one person, and not get the chance to fight him for real because suddenly that counted for my quest completing even though I was across the room hoping to kill it after they leave and it respawns... Even worse is when the quest is "talk to so and so" and after you do it would be a fight, but some yahoo runs up and talks to him and clicks through it and suddenly your own quest is on the next stage now! Not even grouped with them!

Yes, the grouping system is majorly f'd up from both sides of the fence.

AngryNord

*tickles Sakiri*

Phazzle

eventHandler wrote: »

The only thing we need is something to tell you who killed you and with what ability or weapon damage.

Well you'll be happy to hear that the next patch will include this feature. In the meantime, the addon Recount has a combat log.

Tavore1138

Phazzle wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Phazzle wrote: »

So, based on the results of the poll that I posted last night (unless there is a drastic change). I think that we can final put this discussion to rest.

39% said that the fights are 'a little too hard' while only 14% said that they were 'nearly impossible.' The remaining 44% to 45% said that they were either 'perfectly balanced' or too easy.

So, to whoever accused me of being a 'vocal minority' it is actually the 'stupid hard' crowd that is the vocal minority here. 86% of the community are not tearing their hair out about the difficulty of the fights. And, while it is clear that the fights need to be tweaked, the sky is not falling.

I don't have a problem with people making their ideas know, but what I do have a problem with is when players mislead other players with their antics. When you do that, you are only hurting the community and the game.

My own answer to the poll would be 'a few fights are a little too hard but most are fine'...

But what I would point out is that while your results may reflect opinion on these forums, we have to ask what sort of people are posting & voting here? Probably those who are more 'into' their games and internet blah... What percentage of all ESO players do we make up and how balanced a sample group are we? How many Oblivion or Skyrim players bought it on spec & just gave up on some fight they could not win without even considering posting about it here? And how many have cruised through all content equally quiet here?

We, and ZOS, could very likely be mistaken to assume that views here are necessarily a true reflection of player opinion... all 100% of people on your poll are part of the vocal minority

Not trying to be snotty just trying to offer a perspective.

The problem with that viewpoint is that saying 'those who are more 'into' their games,' are the ones who post here is an unsupported assertion.

Agreed, it is a best estimate of probability but of those I know who play this and other games the majority do not spend time on forums. Anecdotal evidence at best but how many poll responses did you have and what is the size of the player base?

Grao

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

The problem with "balance" in a game like this, is there are just too many combinations to balance everything so that any one class is just as viable as any other.

I'm not saying everything is hunky dorey as it is, there are issues which ZOS has admitted with the Nightblade class, but the only way to make everything as viable as everything else is homogenization... Which is just a fancy way to say, "make it boring."

You simply cannot "balance" everything in this game. You might say that skill X costs too much Stamina for the damage it puts out, where as I might feel it's right where it needs to be. Why? Because I've built my character to account for it. I've designed around the costs so I could use it more often. In fact, I might feel like some of the magicka based abilities are too costly because I'm not as heavily invested there.

That's a difference based on player choice and very difficult for the devs to compensate for.

ESO was advertised as "play the way you want," and you absolutely can. You can make your character as odd as you want it to be.

It was not advertised as "Win the way you want." Nobody came out and said that any set up you create will be able to dominate the content.

I couldn't agree more. ZoS did announce "play the way you want" and not "Win, no matter how you play". Skill still has to enter the equation somewhere and choosing abilities is a skill in a game with so many choices.

And no, I am not defending the cookie cut, internet best build... But it is clear in this game that you need certain basic things... Healers NEED Purge or something similar, tanks need at least one taunt, DPS need interrupts to aid the tank and they need finishers / nuke abilities... Ever class and every style has basic needs to survive.

a_good_kidub17_ESO

Personally only had a few solo boss fights that made me have to take a breather before I'd throw a tantrum or something. I'm a bow and arrow guy though, might be a factor, idk. I've only made it to V5 so far.

They were, Mannimarco, Veteran Angolf, Veteran Tharn in Bangkorai and the last fight in the temple of the Tribunal. (I forget his name).

I find the game challenging, but not 'stupid hard'. Some of the fights I listed were probably real easy for people with other builds/classes. I really hope they don't make everything mind numbing-ly easy.

Pretty sure its the challenges you overcome that make the game memorable/enjoyable.

Except the veteran quest grinding. That part sucks.

Could really use a viable alternative to leveling there.

Grao

eventHandler wrote: »

The only thing we need is something to tell you who killed you and with what ability or weapon damage. And hopefully it will give you enough info so that if you got hit with something that took 99% of your life in one hit and then a little slap killed you after, you'll see that useful part on what did the big hit not just the auto slap after it. And then you can effectively develop strategies to things without feeling like you are dying for no reason or that you have to search the web without being able to just pay attention to the fight itself to learn it.

Patch 1.1 for you... Death Recap is already in use in the PBE and will be available to the general community soon.

Chirru wrote: »

As for weapon skills...everyone needs at least one of these. However, Vampire/Werewolf/Fighters guild and Mage guild abilities in my opinion are extras. They should not be necessary to defeat the main quest bosses and also should be just extras in PvE Veteran content.

As I look at general Veteran builds however I see that the majority of people use Vampire/ Fighters and Mage guild skills. Honestly, I advocate to do the same because the normal (even morphed) Class skills often are not good enough to fight at Veteran level.Right now me thinks it is almost compulsory to get these extra skills to be effective at Veteran level. It is this that in my opinion ought to be changed.

I think that the class skills, plus a weapon skill line, ought to be enough to get through the PvE part of the game at whatever level. Of course, PvP is a different thing altogether. In PvP these extra skills make a huge difference and that I think is only fair.

Anyhow..that is my opinion on the topic of the "It's stupid hard crowd."

I am sorry... I am a vr 5 sorcerer and I go through most of the content without using any of werewolf skills (they just don't work), without warrior's guild abilities (only really awesome against undead and Daedra). I have every skill line maxed, don't get me wrong, but class skills are enough, you just need to figure out the best way to work with them. (Possible exception are Nightblades - Too many skills not working properly)

Aoifesan

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Thing is, the servers track when quests are completed and how often; I'd be really curious to see (a month after launch) how many characters have bested Lyris Dopple, Mannimarco, and Molag Bal. (since those are the three big ones that folks seem to be upset about.)

All pushovers.

Regoras

I don't care for the bragging rights of "I did it when it was really hard", I care that I enjoy myself for the short time I log in per week. If it's not fun, I wont do it, and if it begins to feel like a chore, I'll leave all together.

I have a career that pays me, I don't need a game to feel like a career that I pay.

Sakiri

AngryNord wrote: »

*tickles Sakiri*

Eeeeeep! Evil Nord!

Aoifesan wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Thing is, the servers track when quests are completed and how often; I'd be really curious to see (a month after launch) how many characters have bested Lyris Dopple, Mannimarco, and Molag Bal. (since those are the three big ones that folks seem to be upset about.)

All pushovers.

For you.

rawne1980b16_ESO

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Wildstar combat makes me want to club a baby seal... it's fast, frenetic, feverish and fun at times... After a while it's extremely redundant, and questing is the same ol' same ol' quest-hub-hop "kill x of y" and then complete a story you never even read because they're all just that boring.

Wildstar has a story?

All I saw was incredibly boring quest text that, thankfully, I didn't have to read.

Played 6 days of that beta .... couldn't even tell you one of their characters names ..... or what any of the zones are called.

It was that memorable.

kirnmalidus

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

If its hard to kill a boss remember that you have infinite CC.... as long as you have resources the boss won`t touch you... sure it implies a magic build made for that... but it works.

Lot's of bosses are immune to various CC.