For the 'it's stupid hard' crowd

Phazzle

I have seen more than a few posts calling for nerfs, and I get it. It's ok to be frustrated with the game for being hard, but I wanted to share a recent experience to put things in perspective. I was doing 'Something Rotten' at VT 3 the quest where you have to beat down four 11k HP Mammoths. It was really tough as a medium armor wearing melee character.

Each mammoth took about two minutes of dodging, strafing, and running for my life. I died about 10 times before I finally found a reliable method for DPSing them...and then I died about 5 more times. I was right there with you while I was doing it. Saying in my head 'this is unbalanced,' and 'this isn't fun.' After the fact, however, I woke up and realized that it was pretty fun.

Look, in a few weeks I'm sure we'll get a nerf. It's just the way MMOs go. After the hardcores get through the content, they nerf it. I have seen it in half-a-dozen other games. When it does get nerfed though, I'll be able to say that I did it when it was 'stupid hard.' Isn't that something that you should want too? I mean come on, do you remember how hard those 8 bit Nintendo games were?

edit:

I searched for this poll but didn't see it so I started a poll Anonymous poll: Veteran Solo Bosses, too hard? Please contribute if you can.

edit:

Here is a video of a tough fight with a tough boss that required several attempts and some strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OiH1t_u67I

tordr86b16_ESO

Everything in this game is easy.

Phazzle

Saw that coming. How original.

tordr86b16_ESO

http://youtu.be/aGLJ8tVHfec?t=23m50s

skip to 23min10s

Alpha_Protocol

Wildstar combat makes me want to club a baby seal... it's fast, frenetic, feverish and fun at times... After a while it's extremely redundant, and questing is the same ol' same ol' quest-hub-hop "kill x of y" and then complete a story you never even read because they're all just that boring.

infraction2008b16_ESO

Phazzle wrote: »

Have seen more than a few posts calling for nerfs, and I get it. It's ok to be frustrated with the game for being hard, but I wanted to share a recent experience to put things in perspective. I was recently doing 'Something Rotten' at VT 3 the quest where you have to beat down four 11k HP Mammoths. It was really tough as a medium armor wearing melee character.

Each mammoth took about two minutes of dodging, strafing, and running for my life. I died about 10 times before I finally found a reliable method for DPSing them...and then I died about 5 more times. I was right there with you while I was doing it. Saying in my head 'this is unbalanced,' and 'this isn't fun.' After the fact, however, I woke up and realized that it was pretty fun.

Look, in a few weeks I'm sure we'll get a nerf. It's just the way MMOs go. After the hardcores get through the content, they nerf it. I have seen it in half-a-dozen other games. When it does get nerfed though, I'll be able to say that I did it when it was 'stupid hard.' Isn't that something that you should want too? I mean come on, do you remember how hard those 8 bit Nintendo games were?

Coming from swtor and comparing it to ESO, I'm finding that even the low level content in this game is tougher than most of the content (even endgame) in swtor. It chucks people right into the deep end to having to deal with mechanics or die rather than too much hand holding and forgiveness for mistakes.

The problem swtor has due to nerfs and balancing for dumb people is it's created an elitist bubble around the the highest tiered (NiM) content which only a few do while everything else outside that bubble the bosses might as well lie down so you can loot them. I don't want this game to follow the same pattern where you only get in the real challenging content if you happen to be in a super hardcore guild and kiss a load of your guild leaders butt to get a spot.

All content in this game should offer some challenge IMO, that's why they shouldn't nerf nothing.

Fearce

Hmm i dunno what you complain about. I did the Mammoth Quest you talking about with not dieing a single time. You prolly should switch to a different spec. I mean the Vetcontent is tough but with a decent knowledge about skills and timing its easy beatable.

AlexDougherty

Phazzle wrote: »

Have seen more than a few posts calling for nerfs, and I get it. It's ok to be frustrated with the game for being hard, but I wanted to share a recent experience to put things in perspective. I was recently doing 'Something Rotten' at VT 3 the quest where you have to beat down four 11k HP Mammoths. It was really tough as a medium armor wearing melee character.

Each mammoth took about two minutes of dodging, strafing, and running for my life. I died about 10 times before I finally found a reliable method for DPSing them...and then I died about 5 more times. I was right there with you while I was doing it. Saying in my head 'this is unbalanced,' and 'this isn't fun.' After the fact, however, I woke up and realized that it was pretty fun.

Look, in a few weeks I'm sure we'll get a nerf. It's just the way MMOs go. After the hardcores get through the content, they nerf it. I have seen it in half-a-dozen other games. When it does get nerfed though, I'll be able to say that I did it when it was 'stupid hard.' Isn't that something that you should want too? I mean come on, do you remember how hard those 8 bit Nintendo games were?

Yeah, except for the occassions where the method doesn't become obvious, and you keep dieing for no reason.

Take one of the Doshia variations, Daggerfall Covenent I think, when you fight her the area is ridiculously small, the bubbles don't appear, so you can't block them, so she heals everytime. Which means you die a lot, for no reason.

Phazzle

@Fearce‌

Some quests are tougher than others based on your spec. I've decided at this point that it is more efficient to slog through 1 out of 10 hard fights rather than do a respect or go up a talent tree that will take days to fill out.

I usually own any boss fight with a humanoid boss because I can stun-lock the hell out of them. Most fights are doable, I've only had to walk away from one completely.

@AlexDougherty‌

I don't get it. If you are dying because you are figuring a fight out then you're not dying for 'no reason.' It wouldn't be challenging if every fight was obvious. That would be super boring.

I loved that Doshia fight. Doshias are one of the tougher fights for me. I usually die a couple of times. On that very fight I had to run into the corner five or six times and drop agro until I figured out the timing and rotation so that I could dps down the orbs. That was a great fight.

Phazzle

@infraction2008b16_ESO

I feel you on the hand holding, but we have to remember that Zenimax/Bethesda are in this for the money and if the content is too hard for 90% of the player base then it is too hard. I think that they could afford to nerf it a little and it would still be a very satisfying play experience. That said, I hope that I can get through all the content and be ready for Craglorn when it is 'stupid hard' before that comes. When you play at that level you are beating the game.

Platoxia

On the other hand, having just one more player doing the quest with you makes it stupid easy...

Phazzle

@Platoxia‌

word

PrinceBoru

I've been a console gamer up until ESO. Between getting used to the control scheme of a pc game and the challenges of the game itself, i'm reminded of how being a noob feels.
But when I do accomplish something that I thought I couldn't it is a blast!
ESO had better be tough, for all skill levels, or else there would be no sense of accomplishment.

Phazzle

@ROMMELBOT‌

For reals! Sometimes I have to come back after a repair because I have died to something so much. When you get in a tough spot just say 'After I (repair, get better weapons, level) I'm gonna make you my ***!' Beating down something that has beat you down is the champagne of victory!

Wizzo91

This is the first MMO that has challenged me for some time and I really enjoy it.
VR questing would be unpleasant and boring without that challenge.

Also that VR dungeons can be quite hard and that's wonderful.
What's more fun than wiping 10 times and finally killing the boss? Great feeling imo.

Gigamatic

Wizzo91 wrote: »

This is the first MMO that has challenged me for some time and I really enjoy it.
VR questing would be unpleasant and boring without that challenge.

Also that VR dungeons can be quite hard and that's wonderful.
What's more fun than wiping 10 times and finally killing the boss? Great feeling imo.

A challenge is one thing, but you have to have balance. No reason why 1 class can faceroll something and others can't even attempt it. Btw, I'm only level 15 but, when I can't even come close to beating a main quest boss like mob (Servinus Falco), where I'm being hit for 30% of my health, is a bit frustrating. That's just one example. Then if you want to talk about basic balance, look at skill cost per dmg/heal, and ask yourself why certain skills cost 25% of your power source but the result is meh at best.

Game needs a complete overhaul. I don't want nerfs, I want balance. I want a challenge not a struggle. Unfortunately it's all for not. ZOS is spending all their time on damage control with the botting problem.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

the only fight i really ever had a problem with was the molag bal fight, but even then i got through it. i like the difficulty as is, no nerfs or buffs are needed

OmniDo

I ran into the same frustration while attempting the Veteran Content version of the CradleCrush Arena fight.
Using my RANGED Templar Skills (Which is also my preferred method of combat, and MY preferred method is ALL that matters, since this game is allegedly supposed to allow you to 'Play the way you want') I was able to defeat the first two mobs without much difficulty.
The second set of three mobs; caster, melee, ranged, AND 2 summoned Melee Pets, proved mathematically impossible for me to defeat with my chosen set of ranged skills.
The solution: I used TWO Vampire abilities; (Invigorating Drain, Rank IV) on all 5 mobs, avoiding telegraphed attacks, and the Vampire Ultimate: (Devouring Swarm), and everything just fell down with impunity.

What bothers me is the fact that ANY class could have used the same two skills, and defeated the mobs with little effort, but using my own class skills, maxed out, proved impossible for my chosen set of skills and style of play.

I verified this with other players in the local area, all of whom stated that using an AoE Ultimate and using AoE Destruction Staff Abilities pretty much made it trivial.
Having to defer victory for an encounter to 2 non-class abilities, or an entire set of skills that have NOTHING to do with my chosen class, is irritating.

One might as well just be a vampire with Destruction Staff and a Restoration Staff, and scrap everything else except passives.
The result would be the same.

Yankee

I have died at least 6 times today in VR4 solo. Four of them where in a solo dungeon that had a boss group near fast respawns, the others on quests. I was just being too sleepy and slow. Still got them done.

I am making progress but have found all I have to do is screw up a little (or get unlucky) and I get killed.

BUT!, I am still the hero and will still tackle about anything I come across, because eventually those bastid dirty bad guys blocking my path are gonna die.

Quel_Drathon

Sometimes challenge arises from the battle system of the game itself. The storming action in the battles (especially for melee characters) is creating a challenge level that can screw a seasoned MMO player for good. Other MMOs like SWTOR and WoW use the target battle system while ESO prefers a more free battle, in which you must utilize your surroundings, mind your step and place in the middle of battle. It does not give the player any quarter in group fights to monitor the battle. Sometimes all that matters is simply strategic thinking and not a mindless barbaric charge towards hard fights. Personally I love the challenge so far.

Alphashado

Platoxia wrote: »

On the other hand, having just one more player doing the quest with you makes it stupid easy...

I guess my question to that would be who cares? If friends or spouses want to be able to tag team a difficult quest boss, the how would that effect you in any way shape or form?

It wouldn't. You could still solo the quest, thump your chest and be happy, and a husband could help is wife with the quest and both of them would be happy.

Phazzle

I had a though. It would be nice if you got a little extra reward for downing some of the 'stupid hard' bosses. I have noticed that quest bosses don't give bonus xp like dungeon bosses do. What if they let you double dip, just a little, and gave you bonus VP/XP for quest bosses (which IMHO are the toughest). Or, they could build to a sweet meta achievement that gave you a special mount or something awesome when you got them all down. Just killing the boss to complete the quest--especially if it is a hard boss--seems a little 'blah.'

Tavore1138

To discuss this properly I will ignore things like broken abilities and periodic but grievous lag problems which can make what would be a good fight feel bad.

Overall I think the fights (by which I mostly mean bosses) are solid and level appropriate, they challenge us as they should but are also winnable by a decent build without needing a perfect build. In short for most regular gamers most stuff is doable - you will inevitably die a few times but... meh...

But there are outliers...

- i should not be able solo a worldboss at a similar level to me. Some need tuning up. Yes I said make them harder!
- No fight should be taking over 10-15 minutes, either you have the skills and build to win or you should be dying. Fights that long are normally dull grind and leave me feeling grumpy.
- All solo bosses should be solo-able by any viable build, there are some that appear to have been designed with certain requirements in mind that not all classes can provide without going outside what could be considered the class norm... I.e. NBs needing staffs or Sorcs needing sword/board.
- Some of the 3 or 4 groups of what should be generic stuff in VR are too much, they are worse than some bosses especially if you hit one with a couple of casters. I suspect ZOS just turned up the HP/power of everything across the board for VR without much consideration.

My wife would tend to see the content as harder than I do as she this is the first game she has played at all.

The problem for her will be that once she gets past Mr Bal she is going to see a very steep curve but equally as the content is solo she will be wanting to continue to make progress.

Phazzle

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

- All solo bosses should be solo-able by any viable build, there are some that appear to have been designed with certain requirements in mind that not all classes can provide without going outside what could be considered the class norm... I.e. NBs needing staffs or Sorcs needing sword/board.

I think they do a better job of this than you may think. I just soloed Cassia Varo with my build (2-hander/med armor). It's a tough fight because she heals so often so you need to interrupt nearly constantly, but they give you a flame atronach. The challenge became keeping the atronach alive and interrupting Cassia while it burned her down. I had to leave the room if the atronach died so it could respawn.

The atronach was clearly placed there for players who used less tanky builds. Little inclusions like this make fights soloable for most classes/specs. And so what if you can't solo every single boss! You might have to skip some or group up with someone. C'est la vie.

Phazzle

a video of my fight with Cassia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OiH1t_u67I

TetsuMaru

This game isnt very hard... but its very different.

Tavore1138

I found her Ok as a NB, lots of interrupt and I peeled off her ogrim at the start and killed it. That's the VR version.

VR Belrath just was boring grind... Just long and repetitive three steps forward, two steps back fight...

And the VR Dark Mane fight with his two miniboss adds just killed me repeatedly... That is the only time I have not been able to get thru a fight solo & found another NB to team up with.

Generally I muddle through but some of the fights I know will drive my wife crazy others drove me crazy because I felt no sense of reward for winning and was left with a mental image of a psychotic programmer cackling as I burnt 20 minutes working through the same set if actions like a rat in a cage.

But TBH mostly this has been at VR not the first run through.

I think they mostly have done a good job because if I, as an amateur gamer, can make it through with a NB then many others will too if they stick at it. They just need to smooth the edges off a handful of encounters.

Phazzle

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I think they mostly have done a good job because if I, as an amateur gamer, can make it through with a NB then many others will too if they stick at it. They just need to smooth the edges off a handful of encounters.

Agreed. I'm mostly frustrated with 'the sky is falling' crowd that is calling for game-changing nerfs. Nerfs will be coming but they should be done with a scalpel and not a saw.

Reykice

If its hard to kill a boss remember that you have infinite CC.... as long as you have resources the boss won`t touch you... sure it implies a magic build made for that... but it works.

Phazzle

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

If its hard to kill a boss remember that you have infinite CC.... as long as you have resources the boss won`t touch you... sure it implies a magic build made for that... but it works.

There's almost always 'something' you can do to even the odds. Even if that is making friends with another player.

CTraveler

Some boss designs are flat out designed to be challenging to the point of seeming impossible. Take the Rahjiin's Mantle boss fight from Grahtwood, for example. I've done it twice on two characters so far, one DK, one NB, and it was a bloody nightmare each time. But it was a nightmare, in retrospect, that I had a LOT of fun with.

I have *no clue* how I survived on the DK without dying once, but I took the boss's two selves out without using an Ultimate, a self-imposed handicap I'll add. On the NB, I died three times, but each time was a learning experience. I relied more on strategy the last time, swapped out to a resto staff instead of lightning, and as frustrating as the deaths and boss-splitting was, I genuinely had fun at the end of it. Standing over the Boss's corpse and looting the Mantle from her in that case was a moment of triumph.

In other dungeons, on subsequent playthroughs, every time I go through I have to use a different strategy due to my different character builds, and I can't wait to do the Mantle quest again with my Sorcerer. It'll be a challenge for sure, but it'll be one I'll enjoy.