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Increase Magicka Cost of Bolt Escape
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Niffo✭✭✭
How bout starting with actually caring about balance and not just away to make free kills for you and your NB friend who can already tank everything in his sleep, and only hates "selfish BE" who are lucky enough not to die in 3 shots... in a tropical outhouse video... The one with the "If I were a sorcerer I would have lived" but I just tanked 20 players of Mixed VR status for longer than a BE specd player lives x5 when stunned... Would you like to begin there?
since we are discussing balance... I used to be a supporter of the NB cause, but after the video I'm starting to think there's some shenanigans...mostly a joke, before NB get upset lol. I have already shared my feelings on NB fixings in other forum.
I care about balance, thats why I'm posting in this thread.
The Sorcerer in the outhouse was a level 36, so he didn't have Bolt Escape to carry him and he was stuck with the terrible bolstering stats when he probably had better stats outside of Cyrodiil.
The Nightblade in the video is supported by two healers, and we fought on the Nightbalde Shadow ultimate Bolstering Darkness which gives 30% damage reduction to allies standing in the field and 60% damage reduction to the caster when standing in the field also the synergy gives you invisibility and heals you while invisible.
The Nightblade in the video is also wearing Heavy Armour and specced for survivability, and you think your Light Armour Sorcerer should be able to tank like that? or that you should have any survivability as a glass cannon?
Glass cannon means you die easily, Bolt Escape makes it so you don't die easily. Do you think it's balanced to be able to deal high burst damage, enough to kill someone before they get out of the stun from getting knocked off their horse while also being able to escape at will and choose when and where to fight.
In each of the fights where we're outnumbered we get few if any kills and have to turtle and just occupy them for as long as we can. None of us escape since that is not something available to any of us no matter what we spec.
See how I responded to your points and gave actual answers. How about you do the same now, keep the emotion out of it.0 -
bantad87✭✭✭As a medium armor, melee sorceror I don't find bolt escape to be particularly OP. It's great for disengaging or gap closing, but the cost/benefit ratio doesn't really make it absolutely fantastic. Without the light armor passives to reduce the cost, I can only use bolt escape ~3x if I'm not keeping critical surge up, and only twice with surge up (which is always up).
Is bolt escape good? Hell yes; is it broken? No, I don't really think so.0 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »
How bout starting with actually caring about balance and not just away to make free kills for you and your NB friend who can already tank everything in his sleep, and only hates "selfish BE" who are lucky enough not to die in 3 shots... in a tropical outhouse video... The one with the "If I were a sorcerer I would have lived" but I just tanked 20 players of Mixed VR status for longer than a BE specd player lives x5 when stunned... Would you like to begin there?
since we are discussing balance... I used to be a supporter of the NB cause, but after the video I'm starting to think there's some shenanigans...mostly a joke, before NB get upset lol. I have already shared my feelings on NB fixings in other forum.
I care about balance, thats why I'm posting in this thread.
The Sorcerer in the outhouse was a level 36, so he didn't have Bolt Escape to carry him and he was stuck with the terrible bolstering stats when he probably had better stats outside of Cyrodiil.
The Nightblade in the video is supported by two healers, and we fought on the Nightbalde Shadow ultimate Bolstering Darkness which gives 30% damage reduction to allies standing in the field and 60% damage reduction to the caster when standing in the field also the synergy gives you invisibility and heals you while invisible.
The Nightblade in the video is also wearing Heavy Armour and specced for survivability, and you think your Light Armour Sorcerer should be able to tank like that? or that you should have any survivability as a glass cannon?
Glass cannon means you die easily, Bolt Escape makes it so you don't die easily. Do you think it's balanced to be able to deal high burst damage, enough to kill someone before they get out of the stun from getting knocked off their horse while also being able to escape at will and choose when and where to fight.
In each of the fights where we're outnumbered we get few if any kills and have to turtle and just occupy them for as long as we can. None of us escape since that is not something available to any of us no matter what we spec.
See how I responded to your points and gave actual answers. How about you do the same now, keep the emotion out of it.
awesome, now were getting somewhere...
not "die easily".... >>> "die easily if caught".
yes glass cannons need to poof fast its the trade... however there is precidence in many genre that gives the glass cannon serious moility to give it a challenge to kill us easily. EQ1/2 for example. Glass cannon specs offer a mobility and "get out of jail" card with teleports and temporary or permanent increased run speed... based on spec, and racial choices.
I'm not saying "please copy this", but it's a 14+ year example of a franchise successfully using the speed boost to glass cannons as their survivability balance to tanks and stun classes. Keep in mind EQ has used an unfavored automatic CC immunity forever and separate CC timers for PvP vs PvE.
Glass cannons have been favored in kiting, as tanking is not our favored method of survival. BE is kiting. In other franchises that is speed coupled with AoE snares. Here speed is the primary.
Glass cannon is and should not be a free kill.. there needs to be a balance that gives us a realm to kite. If a kiter decides in any franchise to say "this is not going in my favor" they run, it is the nature of the kite player. We must keep you at distance to kill you and survive, unless we trade something to be able to fight up close. If you don't engage us, we cannot kite you... at least not effectively. If we do not engage you, you cannot kill us, not effectivly. This is the balance I am trying to paint for you.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans
Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census1 -
Personally I think the devs need to be working on fixing skills and passives before nerfing anything (although teleporting with scrolls needs to be addressed as that is clearly an unfair advantage).
The simple fact is that until the classes, skills and passives are all working as intended, today's OP may in fact be just a by product of the fact that the games skills and passives are incomplete.
Developers don't tend to be gentle with nerfs (as vampires disovered recently). The standard whack-a-mole nerf tactics most MMO's employ today usually leads to nerfs being overdone rather than applied with a delicate touch.
People are screaming about one ability which combined with a vast array of other abilities could make a sorc OP. I have to wonder how many people are forgetting that the skills on the bar are limited to 5, and with a heal, possibly an armor buff and teleport, that leaves room for only 2 damage spells, and since mass teleport spam and buffing will use a reasonable amount of mana, the amount of damage that can be pumped out should surely be manageable.
Is the real problem that Sorcs can teleport with the scrolls? (In which case I fully agree that there is a problem). Or is the problem that you can't kill them as easily as you would like? (In which case I would suggest that we encourage the developers to focus on getting the skills sorted so we can really gauge what is OP and what is necessary).Edited by l-wilson-1986b16_ESO on 8 May 2014 23:130 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭l-wilson-1986b16_ESO wrote: »Personally I think the devs need to be working on fixing skills and passives before nerfing anything (although teleporting with scrolls needs to be addressed as that is clearly an unfair advantage).
The simple fact is that until the classes, skills and passives are all working as intended, today's OP may in fact be just a by product of the fact that the games skills and passives are incomplete.
Developers don't tend to be gentle with nerfs (as vampires disovered recently). The standard whack-a-mole nerf tactics most MMO's employ today usually leads to nerfs being overdone rather than applied with a delicate touch.
People are screaming about one ability which combined with a vast array of other abilities could make a sorc OP. I have to wonder how many people are forgetting that the skills on the bar are limited to 5, and with a heal, possibly an armor buff and teleport, that leaves room for only 2 damage spells, and since mass teleport spam and buffing will use a reasonable amount of mana, the amount of damage that can be pumped out should surely be manageable.
Is the real problem that Sorcs can teleport with the scrolls? (In which case I fully agree that there is a problem). Or is the problem that you can't kill them as easily as you would like? (In which case I would suggest that we encourage the developers to focus on getting the skills sorted so we can really gauge what is OP and what is necessary).
IMO nail on head, I carry 2 damage abilities... 1 PB AoE, doesn't hurt you unless we are coupled, second is fast strike meant to finish off, not nuke....
I agree with you ... heavily and unfavorably about scroll carrying with bolt... but it's already been announced we will not be able to bolt with scroll.
VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census1 -
Niffo✭✭✭
awesome, now were getting somewhere...
not "die easily".... >>> "die easily if caught".
yes glass cannons need to poof fast its the trade... however there is precidence in many genre that gives the glass cannon serious moility to give it a challenge to kill us easily. EQ1/2 for example. Glass cannon specs offer a mobility and "get out of jail" card with teleports and temporary or permanent increased run speed... based on spec, and racial choices.
I'm not saying "please copy this", but it's a 14+ year example of a franchise successfully using the speed boost to glass cannons as their survivability balance to tanks and stun classes. Keep in mind EQ has used an unfavored automatic CC immunity forever and separate CC timers for PvP vs PvE.
Glass cannons have been favored in kiting, as tanking is not our favored method of survival. BE is kiting. In other franchises that is speed coupled with AoE snares. Here speed is the primary.
Glass cannon is and should not be a free kill.. there needs to be a balance that gives us a realm to kite. If a kiter decides in any franchise to say "this is not going in my favor" they run, it is the nature of the kite player. We must keep you at distance to kill you and survive, unless we trade something to be able to fight up close. If you don't engage us, we cannot kite you... at least not effectively. If we do not engage you, you cannot kill us, not effectivly. This is the balance I am trying to paint for you.
The issue is with Bolt Escape the Sorcerer has to be completely out of resources to be caught, which is not easy to do on a class that has probably the best magicka recovery you can get and no reason to use their stamina bar except for defensive abilities.
Bolt Escape having a debuff that increased the cost with each cast would still allow the Sorcerer to get distance between a target but they wouldn't be able to cast it back-to-back and still be combat effective.
Bolt Escape with a target requirement would still allow a Sorcerer to keep distance been a melee target but not disengage from anyone they wanted unless they combined it with other abilities.
Bolt Escape in its current state gives too much for too little, you can go with a light armoured high damage build and have incredibly high mobility and escape in just one skill.0 -
Niffo✭✭✭l-wilson-1986b16_ESO wrote: »Personally I think the devs need to be working on fixing skills and passives before nerfing anything (although teleporting with scrolls needs to be addressed as that is clearly an unfair advantage).
The simple fact is that until the classes, skills and passives are all working as intended, today's OP may in fact be just a by product of the fact that the games skills and passives are incomplete.
Developers don't tend to be gentle with nerfs (as vampires disovered recently). The standard whack-a-mole nerf tactics most MMO's employ today usually leads to nerfs being overdone rather than applied with a delicate touch.
People are screaming about one ability which combined with a vast array of other abilities could make a sorc OP. I have to wonder how many people are forgetting that the skills on the bar are limited to 5, and with a heal, possibly an armor buff and teleport, that leaves room for only 2 damage spells, and since mass teleport spam and buffing will use a reasonable amount of mana, the amount of damage that can be pumped out should surely be manageable.
Is the real problem that Sorcs can teleport with the scrolls? (In which case I fully agree that there is a problem). Or is the problem that you can't kill them as easily as you would like? (In which case I would suggest that we encourage the developers to focus on getting the skills sorted so we can really gauge what is OP and what is necessary).
The problem is with just one ability a Sorcerer can get what other classes have to devote entire skill bars or gear to to not even come close to the power it gives. The small skill bar makes it so you can't fill every role or even multiple roles at once, you have to make sacrifices. But with Bolt Escape you have high mobility with just a single ability and no way to counter it without building a character specifically to counter that one skill.
One ability should not have that much power.0 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »
awesome, now were getting somewhere...
not "die easily".... >>> "die easily if caught".
yes glass cannons need to poof fast its the trade... however there is precidence in many genre that gives the glass cannon serious moility to give it a challenge to kill us easily. EQ1/2 for example. Glass cannon specs offer a mobility and "get out of jail" card with teleports and temporary or permanent increased run speed... based on spec, and racial choices.
I'm not saying "please copy this", but it's a 14+ year example of a franchise successfully using the speed boost to glass cannons as their survivability balance to tanks and stun classes. Keep in mind EQ has used an unfavored automatic CC immunity forever and separate CC timers for PvP vs PvE.
Glass cannons have been favored in kiting, as tanking is not our favored method of survival. BE is kiting. In other franchises that is speed coupled with AoE snares. Here speed is the primary.
Glass cannon is and should not be a free kill.. there needs to be a balance that gives us a realm to kite. If a kiter decides in any franchise to say "this is not going in my favor" they run, it is the nature of the kite player. We must keep you at distance to kill you and survive, unless we trade something to be able to fight up close. If you don't engage us, we cannot kite you... at least not effectively. If we do not engage you, you cannot kill us, not effectivly. This is the balance I am trying to paint for you.
The issue is with Bolt Escape the Sorcerer has to be completely out of resources to be caught, which is not easy to do on a class that has probably the best magicka recovery you can get and no reason to use their stamina bar except for defensive abilities.
Bolt Escape having a debuff that increased the cost with each cast would still allow the Sorcerer to get distance between a target but they wouldn't be able to cast it back-to-back and still be combat effective.
Bolt Escape with a target requirement would still allow a Sorcerer to keep distance been a melee target but not disengage from anyone they wanted unless they combined it with other abilities.
Bolt Escape in its current state gives too much for too little, you can go with a light armoured high damage build and have incredibly high mobility and escape in just one skill.
I do sincerely respect you Pov on this... regardless of personal opinions. I appreciate a civil and intellectual discussion on the topic ty.
I would ask you to start considering more what our resources look like... that caused us to go "oh *** this is going to suck very quickly, I should go..."
I do feel I'm a decent example of the kind of player that annoys the crap out of you.. feel free to peek my build in signature to correct me if I'm mistaken.
Weather or not I bolt to save my life depends entirely on my STA. You might think it's HP. For me it's STA. I have STA to either block OR Break stun once. I'm heavily mag built. I would take every point I put into HP an dput bck into Magicka even though I'm in the orange or into STA. I could care less about my HP. Once my HP are touched I'm already on the losing side of my fight.
I cast nothing without block held down. I bolt in, drop bubble, AoE fire damage as much as I can handle until, they bubble me, talon me, ice root me etc... I bolt out ASAP... a lot of the time I cannot because other *** like me have already locked me there with their own bubble. I accept I am dying, if I get out it is bonus... I would say honestly that is about 15-50% I get out. My job was not to survive it was to break your foothold for my friends to follow. I play a first in BE player.
I focus on being the first person through the breach. I die sooooo effing much. I literally get annoyed when a PUG group refuses to rez me because they got a free pass at the cost of my death. I hold back and try not to point out the reason 50% of them lived was because someone wearing a dress was ok with knowing they would die just to bolt in and drop a bubble for them, long before the tanks and healers...
Once my STA drops to 50% or less I am already dead. I cannot break a single stun... any CC will kill me at this point soft or hard, I can only hold my stick out waiting for so and so to finish me off hoping I can stall for my friends to show up. I have orange resists and my spell resist is ridiculous but it means nothing... I WILL DIE... I didn't pick bolt to save my life jutst extend it long enough to give my allies a foot hold in an impregnable keep, or be a forward scout...
I know this was a lengthy reply, but it was a sincere reply that BE does not mean = free escape... we are built to die... our only goal is to take more of you with us as possible before we do... at least from my point of view.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census2 -
beravinprb19_ESO✭✭✭Asava, break out of CC like a sane person, or slot Immovable. All your CC issues are now gone. Talons does absolutely nothing to a Sorcerer because you can continue bolting like it never happened. Other than that, you should not be dying during 1 knockdown...Edited by beravinprb19_ESO on 9 May 2014 00:290
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LadyChaos✭✭✭✭beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »Asava, break out of CC like a sane person, or slot Immovable. All your CC issues are now gone. Talons does absolutely nothing to a Sorcerer because you can continue bolting like it never happened. As a DK who actually uses Talons, I can't lockdown a Sorcerer.
While I completely appreciate your feedback and point of view...
yes CC break works NP, but Sorceres who spec for BE do not put a single point into STA... we spec to move fast and kill fast, and unfortunately die fast.
WE get 1 stun break OR we get to block.. not both... not multiples of one or the other. Not to mention our top self heal trades STA for HP/MAG
I'm just trying to emphasize being able to BE at our level ( and DPS...) we have no STA to spare for more than one CC hard or soft. Hens the philosophy stun us and we die.
Specifically on counter DK/talons. As a BE specific Sorce it is my responsibility to bolt bubble and save my group who cannot escape the talons like I can... Some run away the one who like to win are about saving the team. IMO. My group is permanently stuck in talons... I heal for ***, I'm specd to kill not heal... but me being able to survive/escape talons give me opportunity to give them a chance to survive... even if I can't kill him, I can free someone who can IF I can survive it... interclass synergy.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census1 -
beravinprb19_ESO✭✭✭Whenever I ambush a Sorcerer 1 v 1, they can bolt out after the first stun ends. If they are ready, they can also end the stun early. After that I have nothing to keep them in place, and as we all know, chasing a Sorcerer is often a useless endeavour. I can't kill them during the first stun, as I don't have that kind of damage to 100% -> 0% someone in 3 seconds. That, and I never get to use my hard CC a second time as they'll be far out of my range.Edited by beravinprb19_ESO on 9 May 2014 00:430
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jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »Ya, that's it. I don't know how to play my class. I guess playing casters/range classes in mmo's taught me nothing in 15 years. There are counters out there for everything. The one thing that everyone forgets is positioning and choosing your fights to have the advantage. If you want a sorc to go toe to toe with a heavy then you either have to get them a survival skill or at least double their dps so that they're not instant fodder for anyone wearing heavier than light armor that's in the same zone as them. So which would you like for us to have? A way to break contact or melt your face before you get knocked off your horse?
Clearly it hasn't. There are hard counters for most things, but not for Bolt Escape. Sorcerers have the advantage of not needing to have positioning and being able to choose all of their fights since they can teleport out of danger easily. Sorcerers have access to two armour buffs, one of which gives the highest armour/spell resistance of any defensive buff available, and can be morphed to give a movement speed bonus. You have the ability to go with Light Armour and still have high defensive stats, and Sorcerers have incredibly high dps, so they get the best of both worlds with no downsides. Sorcerers can currently break contact and melt the face of someone before they get knocked off their horse.
Are you even playing the game? Or did you just come to the forums to show you don't know what you're talking about.
With all that insane dps and defence as you described it we're still getting melted in 1-3 seconds if in melee of a nb/dk, i am stil to find any viable counter to a shield and sword dk perma blocking while melting your face with class abilities (that also give them stamina for usage) or a nb spamming shadow atack, there is 0 chance for the sorc to win and i dare you to prove me wrong. There are some very strong templar builds out there but with the right setup they are killable so will refrain from giving them as example.
And yes, this game is not built around 1 on 1 so why should i be able to handle any of the above mentioned builds 1 vs 1 why not bring a few friends to take them down? And i totaly agree with that. The same can be said about that bolting sorc, if your group is sprinting on foot after the sorc touching every blue ball they lay, they deserve to be troller.
Now what do you think it would happen when the walking bunker of death dk build is able to perma breathe on your neck or the perma steathed nb will shadow jump you to death withouth even getting to hit them? These are just 2 examples, there are plenty of builds that mean certain death once in their melee range.
I proposed to turn the bolt escape into a more offensive type of ability rather then an escape and possibly a few other skills, give us a fair chance to hold our ground and that would be perfectly fine with me since i enjoy the melee aspect of the game, i made the sorc with a battlemage type of character in mind but tell me how would that be fair for the people who want to range fight and kite the enemy? Would you even use a bow if you knew you cant take advantage of the range?
Ohh, also you might not realize it but bolt escape teleports you in straight line. This works alot of times to your disadvantage since it will make you loose alot of life while falling (not to talk about the slow motion falling that gives the enemy plenty of time to snipe you down) even when bolting down a very mild slope (~15 degrees is enough to loose 500+ hps/bolt, on a 45 degree slope you will more then likely kill yourself in 1-2 bolts). You can also bolt off a cliff if you're trigger happy
It might be great in open fields but once you hit rocky grounds its preaty unreliable and very easy to predict. 0 -
jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »What does everyone not having access to it or something similar have to do with balance?
Not all classes should be the same, or be able to do the same things.
If that's the case then this is the first game I've ever played that had different classes basically doing the exact same thing
Every class can do the same things in different ways, only 1 class has a gap closer/creator that does not require a target. That creates an imbalance, take a look at the skills that each of the classes get, there is crossover for everything.
True. Also true only one class has access to perma stealth, to banner, to spammable self heal and the list could go on. Now if what you are asking is to remove the classes altogether and simply allow everyone to use any skill from any tree i agree with that but if you are saying "remove this from sorc but leave my <insert class name> untouched" then go troll somewhere else.1 -
ForTheRealm✭✭✭popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »What does everyone not having access to it or something similar have to do with balance?
Not all classes should be the same, or be able to do the same things.
If that's the case then this is the first game I've ever played that had different classes basically doing the exact same thing
Every class can do the same things in different ways, only 1 class has a gap closer/creator that does not require a target. That creates an imbalance, take a look at the skills that each of the classes get, there is crossover for everything.
True. Also true only one class has access to perma stealth, to banner, to spammable self heal and the list could go on. Now if what you are asking is to remove the classes altogether and simply allow everyone to use any skill from any tree i agree with that but if you are saying "remove this from sorc but leave my <insert class name> untouched" then go troll somewhere else.
You provide a misleading information, sir:
- NB stealth is not permanent (2,5 sec)...
- DK banner is an ultimate ability, so it can be spammed rather on specific occasion...
- Every class has some kind of tools for healing, e.g. Sorc has Dark Conversion, Twilight Matriarch...
I can hardly find any other ability comparable to Bolt Escape which can break roots, can be used to stun or effectively escape - it is like a swiss army scissor tool.
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Niffo✭✭✭popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »True. Also true only one class has access to perma stealth, to banner, to spammable self heal and the list could go on. Now if what you are asking is to remove the classes altogether and simply allow everyone to use any skill from any tree i agree with that but if you are saying "remove this from sorc but leave my <insert class name> untouched" then go troll somewhere else.
Every class has stealth, you press ctrl and you go into stealth, do you mean invisibility? because you can get that with potions. Banner? yeah only one class has a banner which is an ultimate that gives defensive and offensive bonuses, like say Negate Magic, or are you being as specific as possible with your examples? All classes have self healing options, 2 classes have healing that be used on allies, 2 classes have healing only for themselves, are you seeing the pattern here? Do you want me to go through all of the skills?0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also just gonna redirect to keep discussion in the same place:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95433/eso-dojo-ep-1-countering-bolt-escape#latest
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allexpro✭it arleady cost alot of magicka i dont know why people still crying about bolt of escape, you spam it sometime to get out of trouble but you losing all of your magicka and cant defence yourself. And if you are arleady in fight and you have like 30% you cant go far or do something. And think that sorcers have low def and hp and they are casters that should stay far from enemy. all that i did see in this thread is -
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