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Should they nerv the Sorcerer Teleport
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Obscure✭✭✭✭✭NoPrudent fix is nerfing light armor, and rebalancing everything that consumes Stamina. Being able to spam everything magicka based for extremely low cost with no draw backs is a disease eating away at the core of the game mechanics.
ESO meta-game motto: "If you aren't running light, you aren't running right."Edited by Obscure on 21 May 2014 18:220 -
Ruddertail✭✭✭NoPrudent fix is nerfing light armor, and rebalancing everything that consumes Stamina. Being able to spam everything magicka based for extremely low cost with no draw backs is a disease eating away at the core of the game mechanics.
ESO meta-game motto: "If you aren't running light, you aren't running right."
The thing is, this is exactly what all sorcerer class abilities are built around. Without the light armor bonuses, we won't be very relevant in PvE content, unless given heavy damage buffs, which would just cause other problems.
It's more that stamina skills and heavy armor need a serious buff and certain magicka abilities need a nerf. Light armor is just fine.Edited by Ruddertail on 21 May 2014 19:370 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoPrudent fix is nerfing light armor, and rebalancing everything that consumes Stamina. Being able to spam everything magicka based for extremely low cost with no draw backs is a disease eating away at the core of the game mechanics.
ESO meta-game motto: "If you aren't running light, you aren't running right."
@Obscure
Medium Armor is pretty darn powerful already. There's plenty of good Dual Wield and Bow builds out there, just not a whole ton of people running them.
The only armor that needs a definite buff is Heavy imo.1 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭NoPrudent fix is nerfing light armor, and rebalancing everything that consumes Stamina. Being able to spam everything magicka based for extremely low cost with no draw backs is a disease eating away at the core of the game mechanics.
ESO meta-game motto: "If you aren't running light, you aren't running right."
@Obscure
Medium Armor is pretty darn powerful already. There's plenty of good Dual Wield and Bow builds out there, just not a whole ton of people running them.
The only armor that needs a definite buff is Heavy imo.
Not quite as powerful as you might think, but at no fault of the skill line, it's fairly well balanced. Light Armor however is not very balanced considering unlike the other two it offers significant cost reduction to skills. Skills among which there are options that can improve armor and spell resist to values far surpassing those of heavy armor.
Consider what happens when you spam anything magicka based, but just for the sake of staying on topic let's use Bolt Escape. You can use Bolt as many times as you'd like and the only opportunity cost is you run out of magicka and can't use other Magicka skills. For the sake of argument let's say a skill called "Super Speed Dash" was mechanically identical to Bolt Escape, but used Stamina instead. The costs in resources at base are identical but not only can Bolt be reduced 21% cheaper, the opportunity cost for Super Speed Dash is vastly more significant. Unlike Magicka, when you run out of Stamina you no longer have the ability to block, to bash, to sneak, to dodge, or to CC break; you lose the ability to use all of the other mundane uses of Stamina. There are absolutely zero mundane uses for Magicka, and it can be made 21% more affordable than is mechanically possible for Stamina.
This concept is what has driven the meta game into the state it's in, and even if they removed the cost reduction from light armor, Magicka would still be the better spec since you can do everything with it (Damage, Heal, CC, Mobility, Buffs, etc.) without any of the draw backs that using Stamina for those things presents (not really any Stamina heals though). Hence why everything that consumes Stamina, mundane and skills, needs to be rebalanced. Soon enough there will be few who decide not to wear all light or mostly light simply because it's a superior specialization.1 -
Ruddertail✭✭✭NoThere are too many extremely expensive magicka spells. Sorcerers wouldn't even be able to DPS without the light armor reduction. It's not light armor that's the problem, it's that the other two are less powerful. If anything, they should make more mundane class abilities stamina-based (such as a lot of what DKs use) and also buff the other two armor lines.
Also, if I use up all my magicka for Bolt Escape I can no longer heal or DPS. That's kind of a big deal.0 -
Therium104✭✭✭I think Sorcerers are OP but it is nice to see a bunch of DK-OPness-defenders crying about something else being OP. OK, it's a lot nicer than nice! Will hate it once Bolt is nerfed(it will be) and DKs go back to being completely useless on the board.
Whiners are not necessarily class dependent. They complain no matter what. NBs currently have the highest concentration of tears but this is the same story for all games. Rogue type classes attract the bottom feeders due to the ninja effect. They want to be superhero ninjas, man. Come on. A ninja would own you. Balance. Like if a ninja did not own you the game must be broke.
The devs are insane not to nerf escape bolt. Lol. I cannot believe it is actually being defended.0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭NoRuddertail wrote: »There are too many extremely expensive magicka spells. Sorcerers wouldn't even be able to DPS without the light armor reduction. It's not light armor that's the problem, it's that the other two are less powerful. If anything, they should make more mundane class abilities stamina-based (such as a lot of what DKs use) and also buff the other two armor lines.
Also, if I use up all my magicka for Bolt Escape I can no longer heal or DPS. That's kind of a big deal.
Let's not confuse mundane uses of Stamina with skills. When I say mundane I mean the stuff everyone has to use regardless of class and skill choice. No matter what you call them be it mundane, standard, common, basic, etc. they should not be confused with class skills.
As far as making more skills Stamina based we're only making the problem worse by doing so. The opportunity cost of using Stamina as a primary stat for a build currently prevents the usage of that specialization to the magnitude of a Magicka specialization. Spam Whirling Blade until your tapped out and not only can you no longer use Stamina skills, you also can't block, dodge, or bash interrupt an incoming CC, nor be able to break it once it unavoidably hits you, nor be able to sprint away after its duration. Spam Impulse until your tapped out of Magicka and the only problem you have is you can't use any more Magicka skills. The costs are unequal, so meta gamer builds use few if any Stamina consuming skills. The reduction to Magicka cost with light armor is icing on the cake. Not only is a Magicka spec more viable by default since you can spam without the concerns of a Stamina spec, but you can do it by consuming less Magicka per skill than Stamina can.
These stacking Magicka cost reductions from light armor throw out the entire point of high base cost skills since the reduction is % based, I.E. the higher the base cost the greater the reduction. It's a mechanical deficiency in the game design that is showcased by numerous builds soloing end game content posted on YouTube. The common denominator? Stacking reduction in cost to both Magicka and Ultimate skills. It's discouraging build versatility in end game PvE, and is plaguing PvP with "Class X OP cuz they spam Y!". Kill it at its root, and all of that goes away...kill it with fire.1 -
Travail✭✭✭YesSo far, Bolt Escape is over powered because:
1. Immovable
2. Forward Camps
3. I Didn't Get My Kill
4. I don't want to change my build to counter things
5. Chess
This stuff is gold. Keep it coming guys, I'm dying over here.
And Bolt Escape isn't overpowered because:
1. All that matters is 1v1 character balance, in a game where PvP consists mostly of large group skirmishes and the capturing of objectives.
I think that about sums up the arguments on the other side.Prudent fix is nerfing light armor, and rebalancing everything that consumes Stamina. Being able to spam everything magicka based for extremely low cost with no draw backs is a disease eating away at the core of the game mechanics.
ESO meta-game motto: "If you aren't running light, you aren't running right."
@Obscure
Medium Armor is pretty darn powerful already. There's plenty of good Dual Wield and Bow builds out there, just not a whole ton of people running them.
The only armor that needs a definite buff is Heavy imo.
Not quite as powerful as you might think, but at no fault of the skill line, it's fairly well balanced. Light Armor however is not very balanced considering unlike the other two it offers significant cost reduction to skills. Skills among which there are options that can improve armor and spell resist to values far surpassing those of heavy armor.
Consider what happens when you spam anything magicka based, but just for the sake of staying on topic let's use Bolt Escape. You can use Bolt as many times as you'd like and the only opportunity cost is you run out of magicka and can't use other Magicka skills. For the sake of argument let's say a skill called "Super Speed Dash" was mechanically identical to Bolt Escape, but used Stamina instead. The costs in resources at base are identical but not only can Bolt be reduced 21% cheaper, the opportunity cost for Super Speed Dash is vastly more significant. Unlike Magicka, when you run out of Stamina you no longer have the ability to block, to bash, to sneak, to dodge, or to CC break; you lose the ability to use all of the other mundane uses of Stamina. There are absolutely zero mundane uses for Magicka, and it can be made 21% more affordable than is mechanically possible for Stamina.
This concept is what has driven the meta game into the state it's in, and even if they removed the cost reduction from light armor, Magicka would still be the better spec since you can do everything with it (Damage, Heal, CC, Mobility, Buffs, etc.) without any of the draw backs that using Stamina for those things presents (not really any Stamina heals though). Hence why everything that consumes Stamina, mundane and skills, needs to be rebalanced. Soon enough there will be few who decide not to wear all light or mostly light simply because it's a superior specialization.
I'd be perfectly happy if the first step in this whole process was addressing light armor perks/passives/set bonuses, before resorting to nerfing individual skills.
Unfortunately, that might be a bit of a pipe dream. If the choice is between waiting a year for an overhaul of light armor or having multiple individual skills -including Bolt Escape- adjusted over the next 3-4 months, we might have to settle for the latter.
-Travail.www.obsidianbrotherhood.com0 -
charley222✭✭✭✭Yesteleporting spam spam spam spam spam spam no ending
just any sence also faster of my mount , how too kill teleporter spamer,i have any clue Edited by charley222 on 22 May 2014 11:59the wall of the covenant0 -
seeing that you have no idea what you are talking about I will inform you. ability aoe in this game have a 6 target cap; although powerful, bat swarm cant achieve your hyperbole of killing a whole zerg. dont forget that the people who do take on a group larger that themselves leverage all their magica and stamina as well (usually with more aoes), they dont just stand there doing nothing while letting the bats do ALL the work. and lets also not forget that it has been rebalanced and cant be spammed. there was a time that it could be cast to often.bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »NO!!!! when you played console games in your youth, did you call and demand the creator to nerf a boss you couldnt beat? no? then play the game and learn to counter it!!!!
Apples vs. Oranges; FIGHT!!!!!!
If there was a boss I couldn't beat that was designed in a halfway fair way, it was all on me. However, if they made the first boss literally impossible to beat....yea, I'd have probably called...
Right now, teleporting away and making it impossible to catch them is BS. The Vamp ulti is also broken, but lets not complain that it can solo kill an entire zerg in 10 seconds because I didn't call the developer of a different game for making a hard boss...
imbalanced is imbalanced.
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NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No@Obscure
Maybe getting slightly off topic now, but what you just mentioned isn't a problem with the armor types. If its a problem, its a problem with the mechanics of resource management in the game.
Instead of changing anything about the armor types, they could change it so that dodge, block, ect. drew from a separate pool.
Since I doubt that is going to happen, they should add a cost reduction for Stamina skills to medium. Specifically, just expand the Athletics skill to also include a 2% stamina ability cost reduction per piece of medium armor slotted.
The reduction to the cost of Sneak, Sprint, and Dodge as well as the increase in Stamina regen already act as an indirect cost reduction though. Since you're spending less of your Stam on all of those other things, you've got more Stam for your weapon abilities.
A Light Armor build by comparison (or heavy) is gimping itself by using Stam skills. Those skills cost stamina that is more precious to them, since all those other actions are more expensive for Light and Heavy users (roll, dodge, sneak, sprint) and they regen stam more slowly.0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Noadd a cooldown to gap closers, then I have no problem with add a cooldown to BE.0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Noadd a cooldown to gap closers, then I have no problem with add a cooldown to BE.
No cool downs on any skills at all. Doesn't fit this game.
K?
Thanks.1 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoStill_Mind wrote: »
sure, then
if they increase gap closer cost proportionally to the BE, I am fine with it.
and in general
if they make it more difficult to use BE, the gap closer should be proportionally more difficult to use.
its only fair.Edited by crislevin on 22 May 2014 18:030 -
Still_Mind✭✭✭Yes
Are you implying that, cast for cast, Bolt is weaker than gap-closers?Still_Mind wrote: »
sure, then
if they increase gap closer cost proportionally to the BE, I am fine with it.
and in general
if they make it more difficult to use BE, the gap closer should be proportionally more difficult to use.
its only fair.
If this were the case, this topic wouldn't even be here.Edited by Still_Mind on 22 May 2014 18:40"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoStill_Mind wrote: »
Are you implying that, cast for cast, Bolt is weaker than gap-closers?Still_Mind wrote: »
sure, then
if they increase gap closer cost proportionally to the BE, I am fine with it.
and in general
if they make it more difficult to use BE, the gap closer should be proportionally more difficult to use.
its only fair.
If this were the case, this topic wouldn't even be here.
gap closer/lengthner is not about damage number, its about battle field strategy.0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭YesI think this ability along with many others from other classes to reduce their spammyness need a cooldown of some duration on them. nothing too long, maybe 5 seconds til you can cast it again.
I've seen way too many specific skills in the game get spammed to death because of their obvious greater usefulness over other skills. Not enough balance.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 22 May 2014 18:450 -
Still_Mind✭✭✭Yes
Wasn't talking about damage.Still_Mind wrote: »
Are you implying that, cast for cast, Bolt is weaker than gap-closers?Still_Mind wrote: »
sure, then
if they increase gap closer cost proportionally to the BE, I am fine with it.
and in general
if they make it more difficult to use BE, the gap closer should be proportionally more difficult to use.
its only fair.
If this were the case, this topic wouldn't even be here.
gap closer/lengthner is not about damage number, its about battle field strategy.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoStill_Mind wrote: »Wasn't talking about damage.
so what were you talking about? one meant to kill, one meant to escape, would you rather die or let your opponent run away?
not to mention, in a fair, long fight, after some cast of spells, a sorc would be lucky to use two BE.
Only time a sorc can use 5-6 BE in a roll, is when OPPONENT sneak on him first with a gap closer.Edited by crislevin on 22 May 2014 19:020 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoStill_Mind wrote: »
Are you implying that, cast for cast, Bolt is weaker than gap-closers?Still_Mind wrote: »
sure, then
if they increase gap closer cost proportionally to the BE, I am fine with it.
and in general
if they make it more difficult to use BE, the gap closer should be proportionally more difficult to use.
its only fair.
If this were the case, this topic wouldn't even be here.
Gap closers counter BE.
I watched my buddy cast Invasion 6 times to catch up with a Sorc who cast it 6 times. He caught and killed him.0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No@Still_Mind
To be clear he's not my buddy, though that video does show that the counter works perfectly.
I'm talking about something a guildie did yesterday.0 -
Still_Mind✭✭✭Yes
Well, I linked the thread because I agree with the points made. BE is perfectly fine as a skill used in a fight to create distance. I'd actually be in favour of buffing it for this very purpose (like reduce cost). However, its out-of-combat (or, should I say, get-out-of-combat) applications do need to be discouraged - that is my firm belief.@Still_Mind
To be clear he's not my buddy, though that video does show that the counter works perfectly.
I'm talking about something a guildie did yesterday."I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭No@Obscure
Maybe getting slightly off topic now, but what you just mentioned isn't a problem with the armor types. If its a problem, its a problem with the mechanics of resource management in the game.
Instead of changing anything about the armor types, they could change it so that dodge, block, ect. drew from a separate pool.
Since I doubt that is going to happen, they should add a cost reduction for Stamina skills to medium. Specifically, just expand the Athletics skill to also include a 2% stamina ability cost reduction per piece of medium armor slotted.
The reduction to the cost of Sneak, Sprint, and Dodge as well as the increase in Stamina regen already act as an indirect cost reduction though. Since you're spending less of your Stam on all of those other things, you've got more Stam for your weapon abilities.
A Light Armor build by comparison (or heavy) is gimping itself by using Stam skills. Those skills cost stamina that is more precious to them, since all those other actions are more expensive for Light and Heavy users (roll, dodge, sneak, sprint) and they regen stam more slow.
I'm not sure I follow. The problem of excessive skill spam isn't present in the resources and base skill costs, most skills are fairly well balanced in those terms (awkwardly enough except for Bolt Escape and it's arbitrary regen penalty), it only appears when cost reduction is involved. That said % based cost reduction that bypasses the designed restriction of expensive skills is simply a part of Light Armor. Medium Armor is fine (though I dare say a touch overpowered when stacked with Vampire passives), Heavy Armor needs some serious love, and Light Armor just dominates the meta game. The reasons are % based reductions to skills (and % based bypasses) with no draw back in spamming. The spamming mind you is of skills that should be used intelligently or situationally, but cost reduction is enabling players to pretty much use them whenever they damn well please (ex: Impulse spamming a single target. Why? Cuz Y DA FAQ not?).
We don't want players cost reducing expensive Stamina skills and spamming those as well. Skill Spam is just unhealthy, could you imagine Flying Blade 21% cost reduced on top of jewelry and skill line cost reduction? It'd be ***. But even as *** as that is it still presents the draw back Magicka skill spam doesn't present: loss of the use of mundane abilities. Even if the Light Armor and Medium Armor passives were identical for their relative resources (which I really don't ever want lol), the Magicka spec doesn't have the same opportunity cost draw backs of the Stamina spec.
Now a separate pool would present a new problem within the meta that I've debated with myself on a couple occasions. If every mundane thing we use Stamina for is moved to this new independent pool, let's call it Energy for simplification, we suddenly have removed the importance of Stamina from the current Magicka builds entirely. Now Stamina-less builds exist in a game where Magicka is simply the more resource economic option due to the light armor % cost reduction, and enjoys more build versatility since more skills in the game use Magicka than Stamina. It gets even worse once we consider Energy cost reductions now exist creating another resource to exploit.
Suffice it to say I have no effin' clue how to rebalance Stamina consuming skills, maybe a few unrefined ideas, but each has its flaws. Cost reduction? Enabling spamming. Damage increase? Incentive for spamming. I just can't win. The only somewhat reasonable idea I've had is if every Stamina skill line had a specific mundane ability passive like what One Handed + Shield already has for blocking and bashing. Let's say bow not only made you sprint faster after a dodge, but also made dodge distances longer and cost less.
Anyhow I'm getting off topic, but changes to stacking cost reduction in Magicka would absolutely effect Bolt spam (and Talon spam and Impulse spam and Dark Cloak spam etc., etc., etc.) but not in a way that will directly Nerf the skill(s). Not that there's anything wrong with it as it is currently, skilled players make extremely good use of Stamina specs to catch a Bolt Sorc (I do it on the regular), but it requires a risk/reward ratio the Bolter (and every other Magicka skill spammers) doesn't have to concern themselves with. I can catch you but if you're smart you know my Stamina pool looks a lot like your Magicka pool during that chase so if you decide to stun-n-run I'm SOL. Smart vs Smart the Magicka specialized build trumps the Stamina specialized build. Outside of a narrow build scope that uses equal parts of both pools (like my build), there's not much a Stamina specialized player can do that a Magicka specialized player can't do better, and without the risks.Edited by Obscure on 23 May 2014 02:210 -
Still_Mind✭✭✭Yes
One of the core issues of the game. Stamina utility takes too much of a toll for it not to have access to cost reduction mechanics (aside the semi-broken feat cost reduction jewelry), comparable to the broad array of sources for magicka cost reduction.there's not much a Stamina specialized player can do that a Magicka specialized player can't do better, and without the risks.
Not even mentioning that Magicka skills are, on the average, both, more powerful and more cost-efficient than Stamina.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭NoStill_Mind wrote: »
One of the core issues of the game. Stamina utility takes too much of a toll for it not to have access to cost reduction mechanics (aside the semi-broken feat cost reduction jewelry), comparable to the broad array of sources for magicka cost reduction.there's not much a Stamina specialized player can do that a Magicka specialized player can't do better, and without the risks.
Not even mentioning that Magicka skills are, on the average, both, more powerful and more cost-efficient than Stamina.
I can understand the game design reasoning probably looked great on paper to avoid creating an imbalance of over specialization in Stamina. Unfortunately meta gamers have been crunching the numbers in much more complex game mechanics for a very long time, and if the scale is tipped even slightly in one direction then that's the more optimal choice. For ESO that means Light Armor and Magicka skill spam be it Bolt, Talons, Impulse, or WTFE, and conserving Stamina for it's mundane uses.
Combating all Magicka skill spam is the real answer to pretty much every one of these skill Nerf threads (Ultimate spam is a similar problem with a similar % based cost reduction contributing to it), and 21% of that problem comes from Evocation:
Ex: Bolt Escape
Base Cost: 392
Unholy Knowledge Reduction: -5%
Light Armor Reduction: -21%
Seducer Crafted Set: -3%
Breton Racial Reduction: -3%
15 Reduced Spell Cost Jewelry (x3): -45
(392 - 32% = 267)
(267 - 45 = 222)
Total Cost Reduction: roughly -43%
note: the higher the cost the greater the reduction
(maybe someone should check my math and how I assume stacking is additive)
Just turns the game into a spam gallery when everything on your bar you pay roughly 43% less to cast, and the only consequences are you can't cast anymore when you run dry... you can still sneak, sprint, dodge, block, bash, and CC break. By the by I didn't even mention 15 Reduced Spell Cost isn't even the best you can enchant. And I feel I should point out to the random readers that this is not a problem with Bolt Escape, it's a problem with stacking cost reduction so players can spam any Magicka ability which happens to include, but is in no way limited to, Bolt Escape.
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Cheatingdeath23✭✭✭Still_Mind wrote: »
One of the core issues of the game. Stamina utility takes too much of a toll for it not to have access to cost reduction mechanics (aside the semi-broken feat cost reduction jewelry), comparable to the broad array of sources for magicka cost reduction.there's not much a Stamina specialized player can do that a Magicka specialized player can't do better, and without the risks.
Not even mentioning that Magicka skills are, on the average, both, more powerful and more cost-efficient than Stamina.
This is interesting... wondering if maybe they could shift some of the things into the magicka category.
I'm thinking dodging and sprinting remains stamina, but CC break could become a magicka based activity instead.
Mix it up a bit, they would have to tweak animations but then it becomes a drain on both and you can't simply compartmentalize.0