Should they nerv the Sorcerer Teleport

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

Travail wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
Think your confusing what this so called "FOO" strategy is. Using Bolt escape doesn't win any fights, and most definitely is not "First Order Optimal" which IMO is a unnecessarily complicated term, the common English word for that is "Easy" or the expression "User Friendly". The context is the easy strategy gives a player high power for low skill... Bolt doesn't do that at all. I've literally encountered 1 Sorc who used Bolt during a fight and the guy was incredibly skilled in timing the stun and being vigilant about staying just out of melee yet making it tough to target him at range. Using Bolt to run from a fight is not in any way winning any fights, using it to win fights takes a very skilled player. This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Of course it does, in a game where having 1 person in a group survive is vastly better than having the full group die.

As I've stated, over and over again, having 1 person get away and lay down a forward camp is definitely, 100%, more advantageous than that one person maybe landing one additional killing blow before dying.

Retreat is a VALID TACTIC, and often the right tactic. To say that retreating is never a good strategy is to completely fail to understand warfare. Your definition of "power" is too narrow.

-Travail.

Your literally describing a fight a group just LOST. The Sorc is now running away with Bolt and paying 7500 AP to plant a camp because they lost. The winners aren't dead and waiting to respawn, they're waving bye and saying better luck next time. If it was a "FOO" strategy you'd be describing a scenario that this losing team would have won. Maybe next time they'll bring DK spamming Dark Talons and Standards, because he actually has a "FOO" strategy.

Again, no one is dying to Bolt. Handy after you've already lost to avoid dying, but also as I mentioned I can chase them down because I've built for speed. I don't always win the race but I tend to be satisfied enough with having already won the fight.

Once more with the killing. It's almost as if you define terminology to suit your point of view. Call it whatever you want. If it's not a FOO strategy, then it's just a skill with too much output for effort\accessibility.

Obscure · May 2014

No

@Still_Mind
There's important context being garbled, particularly when saying a skill is overpowered. Running away does not meet any win conditions in the whole of the game design. Test it yourself, you can spam Bolt all day, you will not win a single fight doing so, but to compare your test to an actually no-skill-thrill strategy, go spam Dark Talons enough and you'll kill everything in 8m, I.E. satisfying the win condition of "they died, I didn't". The entire premise of calling Bolt spam a "FOO" strategy is unfounded (and IMHO the acronymn is needless to begin with...I find it to be silly).

In the context of speed/disengage/GTFO Bolt Escape is in fact the best skill to do that in the game. In that context, and that context alone, the skill can be measured against other options to determine whether or not it is excessively powerful or other options are simply underpowered. That said, judging by the volume of ways counter play can be applied, to include the option of just running them down with the proper build strategy, I see no direct mechanical imbalance. The only legitimate argument to be made is the significance of needing Stamina for just about everything leaving the Stamina based spec at a disadvantage that magicka spec's don't have to contend with, particularly when it comes to running away vs bolting away.

If you can't win with it, there's good odds it's not OP. Conversely if you can't catch a fast target, they're just plain faster than you: get faster or just get used to being slow.

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Do you realize that you are saying that it's OK to need specific builds, gear and action bar loadouts just to counter 1 slot on the skill bar, which has enough overall utility to be present anyway most of the time?

Also, as I said before, I don't want it nerfed considerably. I want it to be less spammable. Hell, I'm all for making its initial use even cheaper, but with heavily progressing costs of subsequent casts. It's a skill designed to create distance in combat, not a limited-warranty jail-free card.

Reevster · May 2014

No

I wish they would nerf all these stupid polls.

dracobains_ESO · May 2014

No

Having a poll on whether pancakes are better than waffles is only stupid to those who don't care about waffles and pancakes. Everything is relative but there is nobody forcing you to read something you don't care about let alone respond to it. So what does that say...?

Obscure · May 2014

No

@Still_Mind‌
I absolutely believe countering a strategy should require counter strategy. Being fast is not the goal of my build, yet it is one of the aspects involved in my build strategy. Bolt Escape and one particularly insanely fast Nightblade Vampire player actually inspired me to do so. I knew fast targets would be prevalent and that I'd need to consider that to be effective with my build strategy. I needed to adapt and I did so, I expect others to be required to do the same or fail to be as effective as my build in that scenario. I don't think every other DK in the game should be able to catch a Bolt Sorc as well as I do without building to do so, hell maybe they can do better, but that'd be because they have built a better strategy than mine to do it.

But hey, just in the spirit of weird let's make up our own nonsense acronym just for the sake of it: First Order Optimal Strategy Response Order Dynamic Against Haste or FOOS RO DAH. Take the easiest method to respond to a target, particularly one that is fast, then apply it: 1) Stop them. 2) Be faster than them. 3) Stand there and wave goodbye.

Maybe now that it has a silly and completely unnecessary acronym it'll have more merit...though I'm not going to bet on it. Just try to build to counter it if it's what you feel would benefit your build. If a Nerf hits it, then builds like mine will catch it all of the time rather than some of the time, and my build isn't even the fastest there is. Just a DK doing DK stuffs.

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind‌
If a Nerf hits it, then builds like mine will catch it all of the time rather than some of the time, and my build isn't even the fastest there is. Just a DK doing DK stuffs.

It always comes down to individual player adaptability. What is being discussed here is the weight and functionality of a singular skill within a strategy. Too much for too little is what it comes down to.

Halrloprillalar · May 2014

I haven't seen something special about it

How is this a serious thread?

You think BE is broken??? You must play a DK. #sorrynotsorry

BE is not a "I win button"
It's a "*** *** I need to get out of this ***" button that doesn't always work in our favor. It's nice and awesome because not many others get it, but it's hardly "OP"

Now, talons going through CC immune and stacking banners.... yea. Shut up.

I'm all for balancing things, but you should start with the most broken, and it's not BE.

Travail · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
There's important context being garbled, particularly when saying a skill is overpowered. Running away does not meet any win conditions in the whole of the game design. Test it yourself, you can spam Bolt all day, you will not win a single fight doing so, but to compare your test to an actually no-skill-thrill strategy, go spam Dark Talons enough and you'll kill everything in 8m, I.E. satisfying the win condition of "they died, I didn't". The entire premise of calling Bolt spam a "FOO" strategy is unfounded (and IMHO the acronymn is needless to begin with...I find it to be silly).

In the context of speed/disengage/GTFO Bolt Escape is in fact the best skill to do that in the game. In that context, and that context alone, the skill can be measured against other options to determine whether or not it is excessively powerful or other options are simply underpowered. That said, judging by the volume of ways counter play can be applied, to include the option of just running them down with the proper build strategy, I see no direct mechanical imbalance. The only legitimate argument to be made is the significance of needing Stamina for just about everything leaving the Stamina based spec at a disadvantage that magicka spec's don't have to contend with, particularly when it comes to running away vs bolting away.

If you can't win with it, there's good odds it's not OP. Conversely if you can't catch a fast target, they're just plain faster than you: get faster or just get used to being slow.

As I said, your definition of power is too narrow. Every good, organized PvP group has someone who runs away when the tables are turning on them, in order to return and rez their whole group on the spot, instead of forcing everyone to run back from a regular spawn point.

If this doesn't add power, why do organized PvP groups do it? Why do other groups spend time camping dead bodies to try to stop this from happening? Because it's a good tactic, that's why.

In a gigantic PvP arena where domination of the map is what counts as "winning", it's not very smart to define winning by how many kills you managed to accumulate. In objective PvP, you can contribute to a win without landing a single killing blow.

-Travail.

Obscure · May 2014

No

@Still_Mind
Yes, Bolt Escape is the best way to run away. It's not however the only way and the options available to compete with it require build strategy. Its Skill vs No Skill, Pro vs Joe, Noob vs Veteran. Giving players an easy way to compete with a competent player in terms of speed is healthy for the game. Triggers good players to learn to counter and build to counter, giving validity to builds that would otherwise not be considered optimal within the meta game. If players can't get away with Bolt Escape, they will not use it. Little to no use means little to no metric to determine optimizing for speed, I.E. no Bolt prevalence, no way to know if your fast enough to chase down a Bolter. Speed would lose meaning in the meta, and the aquired skill and strategy to catch a Bolt spammer goes wherever files go when they're deleted.

However I will agree with the argument, in terms of specialization for Magicka vs Stamina, the game is heavily weighted in favor of Magicka use. Builds can use it for damage, for healing, for buffing, for CC, for mobility, and suffer none of the draw backs that presents to a build that uses Stamina for those things (and enjoy greater cost reduction than is possible for Stamina). In that regard I feel the the balance between build resource specialization for Magicka versus that same specialization into Stamina needs to be addressed. Perhaps something like the more points put into Stamina the cheaper the cost of things like CC breaking, Sneaking, Sprinting, and Dodging should become (deliberately left out Blocking and Bashing...they're actually a bit too inexpensive as is IMO). Perhaps even making all of those things that consume stamina (instead of just sprinting, dodging, and sneaking) cheaper to do in medium armor will give more viability to Stamina specializations. Suffice it to say that's an actual problem with the mechanics underlying the difficulty in dealing with Bolt spamming, but isn't specific to Bolt Escape.

@Travail‌
The way that general "power" (as used in the terms like "underpowered" and "overpowered") should ever be defined is relative to a win condition established by the game design (killing something, earning something, be rewarded something, are all examples of a "win condition"). Bolt Escape, in regard to the win conditions of ESO, isn't wining the player anything, especially by itself. The tactic of running away when the group is losing to later return to rez (or set a camp to allow them to rez) is not constrained to Bolt Escape, and does not present any condition in which it in specific would be overpowered. This strategy is used in PvP because it's the quickest way to get back into the fight (a fight you just lost mind you) and isn't a strategy only Bolt spammers can use.

Travail · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

@Travail‌
The way that general "power" (as used in the terms like "underpowered" and "overpowered") should ever be defined is relative to a win condition established by the game design (killing something, earning something, be rewarded something, are all examples of a "win condition"). Bolt Escape, in regard to the win conditions of ESO, isn't wining the player anything, especially by itself. The tactic of running away when the group is losing to later return to rez (or set a camp to allow them to rez) is not constrained to Bolt Escape, and does not present any condition in which it in specific would be overpowered. This strategy is used in PvP because it's the quickest way to get back into the fight (a fight you just lost mind you) and isn't a strategy only Bolt spammers can use.

So, just because Bolt Escape isn't the only escape tool, means it can't be overpowered? Talons isn't the only root in the game. Guess we can't ever call it overpowered. Bash isn't the only way to deal melee damage. Damn, now I guess I can't comment on that, either. What exactly can I comment on, using your logic? I can't think of anything.

Your logical argument is a fallacy. If Bolt Escape offers the "best" tool, among similar tools, for executing a specific tactic (as you admit it does in the first line of your previous post) then there's obviously a possibility that it might, in fact, be overpowered.

And again, I have to state the retreating isn't losing. Dying isn't even losing. That's only your definition of losing. I guess you've never heard of losing a battle to win the war. How many players die in an effort to assault a keep? How many die in an effort to defend it? If their side succeeds, did they "lose" because they died? Nope, because dying in a team setting can sometimes be necessary. Everyone knows that SOME of us will die as we try to storm through an open gate, or a broken wall, or across a guarded bridge. But we charge in anyway, because so long as enough of us make it through, we'll succeed. "Enough" can be a lot less than 100%.

Likewise, retreat can be a valid tactic, sometimes even an amazing tactic. If a Bolt Escaping Sorc can lure 10 people into chasing him, he's just distracted 10x his own weight in enemies from the main battle. If you're telling me that doesn't offer his team an advantage... again, I'll repeat that your definition of power is far too narrow.

Some of the best builds in PvP don't kill a thing. We've seen this in every MMO which features organized PvP, and ESO is no exception.

-Travail.

Obscure · May 2014

No

@Travail
Your removing context and presenting your own. Everything can be made a logical fallacy when deliberately removed from context. Bolt Escape is not the only option, correct. This does not have any direct correlation to whether or not it can be overpowered. Determining the power of anything must be directly compared to its other options, and the options designed to counter it. I've already expressed that notion:

Obscure wrote: »

In the context of speed/disengage/GTFO Bolt Escape is in fact the best skill to do that in the game. In that context, and that context alone, the skill can be measured against other options to determine whether or not it is excessively powerful or other options are simply underpowered.

To say Bolt Escape is Overpowered you cannot do so without comparing it to the power of similar options. You'll never find balance for anything if you compare it to a condition it is not designed to meet, which in Bolt Escape's case is escape not victory. You also cannot balance any skill for "the war" you can only ever balance for "the battle"; the concept of "losing the battle but winning the war" does not apply to a skill or even class balancing. Yes players will die to take a keep, and that is not at all relevant to the balance or imbalance of Bolt Escape.

Retreat is losing, it's why we have capture points. Dying is losing, its why we have hit points. Those are the failure conditions set by the game design, and they aren't up for debate or opinion. You die, you lost. You run away, you lost. Simple. Those failure conditions can be deemed "for a greater good" as part of a strategy, but that does not at all make them any less failure conditions. You said it yourself:

Travail wrote: »

I guess you've never heard of losing a battle to win the war.

Key there is LOSING a battle. You LOST. Winning the war because you lost only means your loss was not in vain...whether you had to Bolt spam away or die on the field, you lost.

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

Key there is LOSING a battle. You LOST. Winning the war because you lost only means your loss was not in vain...whether you had to Bolt spam away or die on the field, you lost.

Never played chess, have you?

Obscure · May 2014

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Key there is LOSING a battle. You LOST. Winning the war because you lost only means your loss was not in vain...whether you had to Bolt spam away or die on the field, you lost.

Never played chess, have you?

Sacrificing your bishop to take the queen with your knight doesn't change the fact that you lost your bishop.

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Key there is LOSING a battle. You LOST. Winning the war because you lost only means your loss was not in vain...whether you had to Bolt spam away or die on the field, you lost.

Never played chess, have you?

Sacrificing your bishop to take the queen with your knight doesn't change the fact that you lost your bishop.

All that matters is that the board is mine.

Obscure · May 2014

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Key there is LOSING a battle. You LOST. Winning the war because you lost only means your loss was not in vain...whether you had to Bolt spam away or die on the field, you lost.

Never played chess, have you?

Sacrificing your bishop to take the queen with your knight doesn't change the fact that you lost your bishop.

All that matters is that the board is mine.

Never played chess, have you? Every pawn matters.

The games mechanics are built on wins and losses that over a long enough time compound to victory or defeat. Skill balance does not account for coordinated player strategy in the balancing of skills, they are separate mechanics. Retreat is defeat, death is defeat. Using a loss to strategize a win has absolutely no relevance to skill balance. The ability to win or lose a fight and the player skill required in doing so is all that skills can be balanced for. Retreat or death can be an acceptable loss in the name of a future win, but it's still a loss that was determined by skill balance and the win/loss conditions set by the game design.

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Point still stands. All that matters is that the board is mine. Even if what we are discussing may not be an intended sacrifice to draw out\expose the enemy, in chess, once you've sacrificed a pawn, or a bishop, it's gone. Here, the figures you've sacrificed have a forward camp failsafe, set up by the person who managed to escape.

Also, I appreciate your attempt to derail the discussion in an attempt to lead us to a conclusion that a single person escaping is irrelevant in the greater picture in PvP content, but that's simply not so. A failsafe strategy available is as important than a winning strategy.

Ruddertail · May 2014

No

Not until talons and shield bash get nerfed because as it is now it's our only escape.

ForTheRealm · May 2014

Yes

Ruddertail wrote: »

Not until talons and shield bash get nerfed because as it is now it's our only escape.

Bash - gets nerfed as of patch 1.1.1...
Talons - do the same thing as other classes: Immovable, Rapid Maneuver, ...

Obscure · May 2014

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

Point still stands. All that matters is that the board is mine. Even if what we are discussing may not be an intended sacrifice to draw out\expose the enemy, in chess, once you've sacrificed a pawn, or a bishop, it's gone. Here, the figures you've sacrificed have a forward camp failsafe, set up by the person who managed to escape.

Point is still without merit. Last I checkedForward Camps aren't part of Bolt Escapes mechanics. Hell they aren't even exclusive to Sorcerers. Pretty sure anyone can buy them and place them, and I'm pretty sure they don't have to wait until after they lost a fight to run away and do so.

Still_Mind wrote: »

Also, I appreciate your attempt to derail the discussion in an attempt to lead us to a conclusion that a single person escaping is irrelevant in the greater picture in PvP content, but that's simply not so. A failsafe strategy available is as important than a winning strategy.

It was you who brought up the notion and fixated on it. Citing it as a reason to Nerf a skill that has nothing to do with that concept. I contested the notion with reason and logic, because the "greater picture" is irrelevant to the right now of mechanical skill balance. Though you persist to suggest it is so, and now state my disagreement with that is derailment of the discussion. That just seems like biased hypocrisy.

Ruddertail · May 2014

No

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Ruddertail wrote: »

Not until talons and shield bash get nerfed because as it is now it's our only escape.

Bash - gets nerfed as of patch 1.1.1...
Talons - do the same thing as other classes: Immovable, Rapid Maneuver, ...

And die in the talons, because those skills don't affect them?

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

It was you who brought up the notion and fixated on it. Citing it as a reason to Nerf a skill that has nothing to do with that concept. I contested the notion with reason and logic, because the "greater picture" is irrelevant to the right now of mechanical skill balance. Though you persist to suggest it is so, and now state my disagreement with that is derailment of the discussion. That just seems like biased hypocrisy.

これは皮肉なことです

My original point was that this skill does not need drastic nerfs, it needs slight tweaks to make it less spammable. And, judging by how fiercely some people defend it against even the notion of such mild changes, lead me to believe that this truly is a crutch. A FOO strategy that has too much impact for too little effort, and they're not giving it up without a fight.

Obscure · May 2014

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

It was you who brought up the notion and fixated on it. Citing it as a reason to Nerf a skill that has nothing to do with that concept. I contested the notion with reason and logic, because the "greater picture" is irrelevant to the right now of mechanical skill balance. Though you persist to suggest it is so, and now state my disagreement with that is derailment of the discussion. That just seems like biased hypocrisy.

これは皮肉なことです

I'm glad we've established you no longer desire to have a meaningful discussion on the subject of Bolt Escape. I'll take your trolling as you conceding.

...the real irony is that I understand.

NordJitsu · May 2014

No

So far, Bolt Escape is over powered because:

1. Immovable
2. Forward Camps
3. I Didn't Get My Kill
4. I don't want to change my build to counter things
5. Chess

This stuff is gold. Keep it coming guys, I'm dying over here.

Therium104 · May 2014

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

How is this a serious thread?

You think BE is broken??? You must play a DK. #sorrynotsorry

BE is not a "I win button"
It's a "*** *** I need to get out of this ***" button that doesn't always work in our favor. It's nice and awesome because not many others get it, but it's hardly "OP"

Now, talons going through CC immune and stacking banners.... yea. Shut up.

I'm all for balancing things, but you should start with the most broken, and it's not BE.

Step back as second. How is a mass of unkillable sorcs zapping around a battlefield good for the game.

Also, if bolt escape means you lost and is irrelevant then when it is nerfed I am sure none of you will care. If it does not matter then stop complaining.

This thread is stupid because we have a grossly OP ability being defended. This ability will get nerfed. It has to. The good news is that it apparently sucks and is horrible so all the sorcs will not care.

Right?

Still_Mind · May 2014

Yes

NordJitsu wrote: »

So far, Bolt Escape is over powered because:

1. Immovable
2. Forward Camps
3. I Didn't Get My Kill
4. I don't want to change my build to counter things
5. Chess

This stuff is gold. Keep it coming guys, I'm dying over here.

Yes, one should build an entire character to specifically counter one skill. Makes perfect sense.

Hold on to that crutch, my friend. Winter is coming. If not in 1.1, then likely soon after.

Therium104 · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

So far, Bolt Escape is over powered because:

1. Immovable
2. Forward Camps
3. I Didn't Get My Kill
4. I don't want to change my build to counter things
5. Chess

This stuff is gold. Keep it coming guys, I'm dying over here.

Lol. If the ability (BE) is so horrible then I am sure you will not care when it is nerfed. Obviously, an army of unkillable sorcs zapping around the pvp battlefield is balanced. Right, General Patton?

Come on dude. Your comments are gold. Lol. Keep it coming sorcs.

vicNBitis · May 2014

I think Sorcerers are OP but it is nice to see a bunch of DK-OPness-defenders crying about something else being OP. OK, it's a lot nicer than nice! Will hate it once Bolt is nerfed(it will be) and DKs go back to being completely useless on the board.

eNumbra · May 2014

Yes

They nerfed elusive mist so yes; and I readily admit that it's out of nothing more than spite that I feel this way.

crislevin · May 2014

No

why don't we start a thread asking if a skill needs to be nerfed, for EACH skill?