Don't put a 6 man target cap on AOE for pvp

dalgrimar

Guys, Cuddler is right.
I did a proper test on Pulsar/Elemental Ring in splindleclutch pulling 10+ spiders and max amount of targets Pulsar/Elemenal Ring hitted was 6!
As Pulsar is the nr2 abbility used for organized groups zerg busting big zergs next of dk banner wich wont get a cap i think, nothing will really change tbh.
I would post a picture but its to much time to take picture when all mobs are alive still.
Annyway, if people could test some more to be 100% sure please do it!
You can do it with the freshly made simple addon called AoE Cap Results

RaZaddha

Cuddler wrote: »

It turns out the majority of heals already have the cap, not just damaging abilities. Nobody cared about it before, and the poll shows that 99%+ of the players still don't care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHwbrXNfbNM

Every MMO has a bunch of vocal crybabies who are not interested in facts, but are always ready to throw a tantrum, start petitions, and threaten cancellations over a perceived removal of their overpowered candy.

The main blame for driving ESO crybabies into hysteria lies firmly with the PTS testers who started spreading misinformation. Apparently, they did not even bother to test the same abilities on live. Didn't these testers also have a chance to test the game on PTS for months before release?

I for one hope ZOS does not listen to the tiny vocal minority and do what is right for game balance.

Doesn't change the fact that now that everyone knows theres a AoE cap on live we will see turtling groups doing the same thing the zerg does on GW2.

Feidam

Keystone.Jones wrote: »

LatinLegacy wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

LatinLegacy wrote: »

Well I wouldn't be a Rank 10 vet on Wabbajack if I didn't take PvP seriously. Hell, been doing it since the days of Meridian 59 so yes, I take it very seriously. As for stacking in giant balls, go for it. They'll be the morons that will be dropped from a few well placed fire treb/ballista hits. You also won't be a very effective zerg if your stacked in a " giant ball " when on the offensive. As already mentioned, the PvP will improve greatly since bad players will no longer be able to run into crowds & spam AOE's until they fall & take 30+ players with them. Try harder man, I've been doing this for almost 18 years. This was & is a needed change.

Aka, this guy is a zerging nub, therefor it won't effect him, because he'll be the one zerging.

Actually, I'm an ambush Nightblade. The only AOE skill that I have slotted is Lotus Fan which I happen to not use as an AOE ability. All of my other skills including my ultimate, harvest soul, are single target skills. If I happen to be a part of a large group that is pushing, I am the almost always the one that is firing a siege at a keep or I am stealth at an enemy entrance getting the drop on reinforcements as they enter the keep. You don't have to take my word for it but I do have a publicly available Photobucket album of TESO SS's that will back up my play style claims . That or I can bring in a bunch of Wabbajack vets that I run with to post in this thread to really put you down :P

The thing you don't understand is...with an AOE cap EVERYBODY will stand in a MASSIVE tight group of people and your single target spec will mean NOTHING.

I hope that is clear to you.

Honestly, Siege will solve that little problem rather nicely.

I really don't think this is as big a change as you all think it is. Most abilities already have the cap. I know from personal tests that the resto aoe Grand healing only hits 6 people and my lingering ritual hits 5 plus me for 6. My destruction staff elemental ring only hits 6 too.

Kingslayer

One thing i know which will be on the fix list is lightning flood but that hits like a wet noodle

Diamond_10

Diamond_10 wrote: »

Im VERY VERY surprised if they go ahead with this.
ESO Staff go ask Matt Firor how daoc would have turned out with aoe caps.

Worst idea ever if you cap aoe, and will doom this game before it even starts.

I actually changed my mind on my own statement. Due to their being no hard interrupts in this game, i think an aoe cap is absolutely necessary, and will also make single target builds more viable.

moXrox

/TALONS
/IMPULSE
/BAT SWARM

NO thank you, not with this no-skill "elite" tactic which people use currently in pvp and mow down enemies.

AoE needs a change for sure, if not with a cap than something else.

But these mentioned AoE combos currently are a joke.....

Alestair

I got an idea, Remove the perma root/stun/AOE from VR10's that kill a whole army... Might as well call them Gods or something

moXrox

RaZaddha wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

It turns out the majority of heals already have the cap, not just damaging abilities. Nobody cared about it before, and the poll shows that 99%+ of the players still don't care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHwbrXNfbNM

Every MMO has a bunch of vocal crybabies who are not interested in facts, but are always ready to throw a tantrum, start petitions, and threaten cancellations over a perceived removal of their overpowered candy.

The main blame for driving ESO crybabies into hysteria lies firmly with the PTS testers who started spreading misinformation. Apparently, they did not even bother to test the same abilities on live. Didn't these testers also have a chance to test the game on PTS for months before release?

I for one hope ZOS does not listen to the tiny vocal minority and do what is right for game balance.

Doesn't change the fact that now that everyone knows theres a AoE cap on live we will see turtling groups doing the same thing the zerg does on GW2.

Probably 90% of them are GW2 players used to massive AoE spamming pvp, GW2 is just very AoE heavy.

What they dont get is that actually the siege weapons in ESO dont have an AoE cap, nah they want their overpowered and easy candy instead of using an organized strategy. Siege weaposn which are very usefull and play a big part in ESO pvp wheras in GW2 they play only a minor role.

Like I wrote above the current AoE combos people use to mow down enemies i.e. /Talons/Impulse/Batswarm are way too strong and need an urgent fix. The most powerfull attacks are the most easy ones and thats just plain wrong.

And yes, the video shows that actually healing had already a cap....they are silent about this.

RaZaddha

moXrox wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

It turns out the majority of heals already have the cap, not just damaging abilities. Nobody cared about it before, and the poll shows that 99%+ of the players still don't care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHwbrXNfbNM

Every MMO has a bunch of vocal crybabies who are not interested in facts, but are always ready to throw a tantrum, start petitions, and threaten cancellations over a perceived removal of their overpowered candy.

The main blame for driving ESO crybabies into hysteria lies firmly with the PTS testers who started spreading misinformation. Apparently, they did not even bother to test the same abilities on live. Didn't these testers also have a chance to test the game on PTS for months before release?

I for one hope ZOS does not listen to the tiny vocal minority and do what is right for game balance.

Doesn't change the fact that now that everyone knows theres a AoE cap on live we will see turtling groups doing the same thing the zerg does on GW2.

Probably 90% of them are GW2 players used to massive AoE spamming pvp, GW2 is just very AoE heavy.

What they dont get is that actually the siege weapons in ESO dont have an AoE cap, nah they want their overpowered and easy candy instead of using an organized strategy. Siege weaposn which are very usefull and play a big part in ESO pvp wheras in GW2 they play only a minor role.

Like I wrote above the current AoE combos people use to mow down enemies i.e. /Talons/Impulse/Batswarm are way too strong and need an urgent fix. The most powerfull attacks are the most easy ones and thats just plain wrong.

And yes, the video shows that actually healing had already a cap....they are silent about this.

Siege? The only useful siege would be oil on the ground and it's usefulness is not so great since in the open field you can simply walk away or stand on top of it and CC whoever is using it. Ballistas? Catapults? Too slow, you can only get one shot before the zerg walks and stands on top of your siege. Theres no OP Arrow Carts here, siege is only useful for hitting other siege or for long distances, which becomes useles since the enemy is turtling up on you and you can't do anything to stop them.

Try to take a defended objective on GW2 without siege, try to stand on a AC for a few seconds. You haven't played much GW2 if you think siege is only a "minor role".

Talons/Impulse/Batswarm are indeed *** and OP, but if these abilites are fixed and nothing else changes we will have turtling everywhere. In general it's still safer to stand clumped up rather than spread out.

makkon

ZOS, put aoe cap! or remove aoe from all!
make this game more brain used - not just spam aoe

Daendur

I think there should be "single target spells" , "multi target spells" and "area of effect spells".

• Single target = hit 1 target.
• Multi target = hit a given number of targets (and here you have a cap)
• Area of Effect = hit an area.
  - There should not be a target limit.
  - Area should be static and do not move with the caster.
  - GTAoEs could be channeling abilities or DoTs
  - PBAoEs should only be direct damage abilities or preventing the caster from moving while channeling.

Every type of spell (single, multi, area) can be ranged or melee.

Then you tweak the damage/effects of various abilities.

xentek_ESO

RivenVII wrote: »

Please vote in the poll here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap

Make our voices heard!

Done.

Samadhi

Daendur wrote: »

I think there should be "single target spells" , "multi target spells" and "area of effect spells".

• Single target = hit 1 target.
• Multi target = hit a given number of targets (and here you have a cap)
• Area of Effect = hit an area.
  - There should not be a target limit.
  - Area should be static and do not move with the caster.
  - GTAoEs could be channeling abilities or DoTs
  - PBAoEs should only be direct damage abilities or preventing the caster from moving while channeling.

Every type of spell (single, multi, area) can be ranged or melee.

Then you tweak the damage/effects of various abilities.

I like this idea as a reasonable replacement.

I just can't get behind an idea where the counter to an Area being Effected by a skill is to pile as many people into that Area as possible, rather than encourage them to tactically retreat from that Area to more effective fighting positions.

"The enemy is going to be detonating explosives at this location; we need as many of you as possible to group together in this location to mitigate damage."
"But sir, wouldn't it make more sense if we all spread out so that the explosives don't hit us at all? That seems more tactical."
"...You get in that *** area of effect with the rest of the *** zerg right *** now."

Kiash

Will be cancelling after I finish the PvE story line if this AoE cap change goes through. Sorry ZOS, love the game but AoE caps destroy RvR style PvP. It made GW2 a terrible karma train zerg fest.

Really sad that AoE caps are even considering in a PvP heavy game.

Kingslayer

I guess the list got forgotten then......

BrassRazoo

AoE caps sound like a great idea.
At least they are fixing something.

Rotherhans

The AOE caps in GW2 is what killed the RvR there for me.

It´s just a boring Zergfest and ZMax seems to be working hard on emulating it.
I hope they will reconsider, but I know they won´t.

galiumb16_ESO

moXrox wrote: »

/TALONS
/IMPULSE
/BAT SWARM

NO thank you, not with this no-skill "elite" tactic which people use currently in pvp and mow down enemies.

AoE needs a change for sure, if not with a cap than something else.

But these mentioned AoE combos currently are a joke.....

Seriously, learn to dodge. Learn to counter bomb. Learn to use silence. Learn better positioning. Learn to not ball up.

There is so many, many tools available to counter the above, and yet folks have no interest in learning to use them, they just focus on the fact that they stood there and got owned, because they did not react properly.

What really annoys me about the discussion. Is that zerglings will cry loud about how they got owned by AoE bomb, but they never appreciate how often they zerg down that same group in most other situations. We do not cry about it, we just keep adjusting our setups and builds to better get out of those situations.

TheGrandAlliance

scorpo46b16_ESO wrote: »

you will destroy or hurt badly pvp in this game one of the reasons my guild chose this game was because it was possible to zerg bust through superior tactics.

this will just empower zergs and be the first of more changes to come that dumb the game down and force pvpers to have to wait for the next game again.

people will just run around in tight defensive massive clumps and only die to larger clumps just like GW2

Every game that does this target cap BS kills its PvP

Mates... only exploiters think that AoE cap shouldn't be there. One VR10vamp vrs a zerg is crazy.


Only ones complaing about this are the vamp exploiters. NO need for them here.

Greysun

Ok let me phrase it like this,
You and 3 friends come upon a bridge, on that bridge is man with a grenade pin pulled spoon grasped tightly,
of the 4 of you
3 have a knife, 1 has a nice scoped rifle and experience using it.
do you
A. send the guys with the knives in 1 by 1 so only 1 may day or get lucky and kill hte guy and absorb the blow
B. send all three guys with knives
C. Sit back and laugh as your buddy with the rifle takes out the dummy and you go on your merry way.

Aoe is like a grenade, it is meant to do severe damage over an immediate area, its not a missile, or a rifle or even a bomb which does massive damage over an area. you get to close to the grenade you should take damage rather 1 guy or 30. what your asking for is to nerf an item to allow those 3 guys a chance to go in together sit by(not on) a grenade and no one die and potentially 2 of the three not be injured at all.

TheGrandAlliance

@Greysun‌

What your forgetting is that the more people you have there the more of the "shock" is being absorbed. AoE's are not unlimited power... they have "energy" and cannot hit unlimited targets.

The ones "closest to the blast" would take most of damage leaving ones behind with less. What you are saying isn't a realistic comparision... Case in point "Boston Bomber": Not everyone died with the "AoE" range.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

@Greysun‌

What your forgetting is that the more people you have there the more of the "shock" is being absorbed. AoE's are not unlimited power... they have "energy" and cannot hit unlimited targets.

The ones "closest to the blast" would take most of damage leaving ones behind with less. What you are saying isn't a realistic comparision... Case in point "Boston Bomber": Not everyone died with the "AoE" range.

Just because you have 30 people around you you wouldn't sit on a grenade. You are supposed to scatter when people drop 30 AoE on you, not stack tighter and pray your healers don't run out of magicka.

prana33b14_ESO

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

The ones "closest to the blast" would take most of damage leaving ones behind with less. What you are saying isn't a realistic comparision... Case in point "Boston Bomber": Not everyone died with the "AoE" range.

And the grenade stopping after hitting 6 people is?

Varivox9

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

scorpo46b16_ESO wrote: »

you will destroy or hurt badly pvp in this game one of the reasons my guild chose this game was because it was possible to zerg bust through superior tactics.

this will just empower zergs and be the first of more changes to come that dumb the game down and force pvpers to have to wait for the next game again.

people will just run around in tight defensive massive clumps and only die to larger clumps just like GW2

Every game that does this target cap BS kills its PvP

Mates... only exploiters think that AoE cap shouldn't be there. One VR10vamp vrs a zerg is crazy.


Only ones complaing about this are the vamp exploiters. NO need for them here.

Sorry, what?

I don't think that 99% of the people against an AoE cap because they want to keep the vamp skill as is. Vamp is abused (currently, with the right sets/passives, it is possible to use that ulti as long as you want as the cost is roughly 10 ulti, mistform making you very hard to kill while the ulti heals you). Vamp is, in its' current form, OP. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ALL THE OTHER AOE IS OP. If I use lightning flood, for example, it is easy to dodge, doesn't make me invincible, and you can easily see the big red "do not stand here" circle. It does very little damage as is. So why does one skill being OP (and an apparent inability for people to realize that the vamp ulti does no damage if you RUN AWAY.) mean that all AoE is OP? If I lay down a giant lava field that will hit anyone in the obvious "do not stand here" area, the proper tactic is to move out of that area. However, if I lay down that same lava field (again, obvious "do not stand here" sign) but it caps at 6 players, well, the damage is completely negated if the entire zerg stands in it as it does far less damage to an entire group since it is spread out to everyone. With the second tactic, fights will come down to who has more people (aka, what we see in GW2).

Nerf Vamp Ulti. I am 100% for that. Just don't nerf every other skill because that one skill is OP.

I think that the 2h charge ability is OP as it is a 100% crit chance, please nerf Bound Armour now!!!!!

frwinters_ESO

Brugun wrote: »

PLEASE DO NOT SET AOE CAP TO 6. If someone casts an AoE on a group of 7 players, then all seven should be hit. Whatever number of people in that AREA should be hit. That's the point of Area of Effect, to hit all players in the area. If ZOS implements the AoE cap that is being tested on PTS, then it may be a deal breaker for PvP for me. This is one of the biggest reasons ESO AvA > Gw2 WvW

OMG its already capped at 6! always has been. the developer have just put out an explanation here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/89420/area-of-effect-abilities-maximum-target-cap-clarification#latest

Its not a big game breaking deal, they are changing like 5 abilities and that's it.

Next topic please!

RaZaddha

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

Brugun wrote: »

PLEASE DO NOT SET AOE CAP TO 6. If someone casts an AoE on a group of 7 players, then all seven should be hit. Whatever number of people in that AREA should be hit. That's the point of Area of Effect, to hit all players in the area. If ZOS implements the AoE cap that is being tested on PTS, then it may be a deal breaker for PvP for me. This is one of the biggest reasons ESO AvA > Gw2 WvW

OMG its already capped at 6! always has been. the developer have just put out an explanation here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/89420/area-of-effect-abilities-maximum-target-cap-clarification#latest

Its not a big game breaking deal, they are changing like 5 abilities and that's it.

Next topic please!

That has already been clarified a long time ago, the issue is not that they are capping, the issue is nobody knew there was a cap and now the new meta is turtling around like GW2

TheGrandAlliance

RaZaddha wrote: »

That has already been clarified a long time ago, the issue is not that they are capping, the issue is nobody knew there was a cap and now the new meta is turtling around like GW2

They think this yes... but GW2/ESO 2 different games. "turtling around" won't work just because they have aoe caps.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

That has already been clarified a long time ago, the issue is not that they are capping, the issue is nobody knew there was a cap and now the new meta is turtling around like GW2

They think this yes... but GW2/ESO 2 different games. "turtling around" won't work just because they have aoe caps.

Turtling is easy and works: http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4091868
Without AoE caps you can't simply outheal all AoE damage if you clump up.

Gravord

Aoe cap is horrible idea and still hoping it wont go live.
And putting target limit on area abilites its far from any logic.

Ivyrosh

Hey there,
As former DAoC/WAR/GW2 player I'm also incredible worried about those changes.
With Atropos' post contradicting the Devs statement(s) the whole thing seems even more awkard.

But given the fact that the Devs are struggling to manage their priorities at the moment and/or maybe even encountering (serious) problems regarding the overall design of the game, it might be incredible contra-productive to repeat the same arguments over and over again (without actually making suggestions on how to possibly deal with this problem).
Not that those arguments; mostly comparisons and examples, would'nt be legitimate - in fact, those arguments are even more than that - but afterall it leaves them with nothing more than a bajillion pages of expressed anger and repetitions.
I would really like to see all of you, who seem to really care about the game to come up with ideas, to maybe give them that little push into the "right" direction.
And hereby, it doesn't really matter how insane some those ideas might end up being. As with all things, as more people do actually contribute to finding a solution rather than predicting obvious consequences, as better the actual result could end up being.
Furthermore, trying to reach them with some kind of compromise would be worth trying i feel.

---

A probably rather pityful attempt::
I apologize if the following has already been suggested - I had no time to read the entire thread yet. ._.
However, if it's down to actual issues with the design of the game; problems with mechanics and balance, you could probably try to get rid of the cap entirely but introduce some kind of diminishing returns.

Say, the AoE's hitting EVERYONE, but their damage is based on the distance to the center of the AoE - equal to how a cap would basicly work.
So you would, if executed correctly, not just fix the issue with the cap per se, but also introduce a whole new level of depth - in my opinion that is, of course.
Leading to small groups still being capable of engaging Zergs but also require them to actively work with CC's to trap their foes in the best possible way.

Even though, Soft-CC might have to get looked at (e.g.: (just naming it specifically since it's the most discussed ability of that type at the moment) Talons).

---

I do not intend to offend anyone with this, but:
On a sidenote, it is incredible saddening to witness the gaming community as a whole slowly losing respect, patience, constructiveness and the overall ability to see Devs as actual human beings; furthermore the possible consequences of overly negative criticism - human beings tend to work better if they do not feel like... well you probably know what i mean.
Human beings simply tend to mess things up from time to time.
Showing them what they did wrong is absolutly okay - if it's done in a civil manner so that people not feel bad about themself, but about what they did.
- and furthermore learn from their mistakes.

On the other hand, I of course do unterstand all the frustration, I do feel the same way.
It is mostly down to really basic, trivial and seemingly easy fixable issues (e.g.: flow of information/overall handling of the relationship between player and Dev Team; priorities in terms of fixing bugs; ...) - and maybe because of that, twice as frustrating.
Regardless, this game is barely older than a month and (if I'm not wrong) Zenimax' first attempt of pulling off an MMO. So giving them time - as revolting as it might sound for you, the paying customer - is a necessity to aquire the game we hoped and came for.

However, I really want to thank everyone contributing to this very special discussion (across almost the entire forums), as it can indeed serve as a milestone for the future of this game in terms of cooperation between developers and players. This, your, initiative really shows me, and most likely the Dev Team, that the game and its community can evolve in a very certain way. One, that probably makes it a worthy spiritual successor to DAoC.

I do apologize, should I have messed up grammar or spelling, english isn't my native language. ._.
Aswell as I do apologize for the Wall-of-Text-of-Death-of-"Why did i even read that mess?".

Greetings,
Ivyin


EDIT: On the topic of information flow, priorities and mechanics:

Regarding you, the reader:
I apologize for the absurd amount of words and the fact that this EDIT does add even more, including offtopic.

Regarding Zenimax:
I really hope the following does not sound demanding, given that i can only imagine how incredible stressful your work is at the moment.

Information flow:
Please consider to briefly summarizing once or twice a week, or every two weeks, what you are working on and what is coming next.

Priorities:
Please do reconsider your priorities in terms of fixing bugs and producing new content.
Aswell as the internal priorities of bugs.

Introduce a hotfix system at best, delivering one or two (minor) fixes once per week.

It might sound harsh, and I do - once more - apologize, but those little things will have a significant impact on the stress you are suffering from at the moment, aswell as the frustration of players and the way they are expressing this frustration on the forums and other websites.
The magnitude of that impact, as harsh and probably offending as it sounds - it is not intended to but almost impossible to avoid -, will probably get you to /facepalm yourself to near-death.

Mechanics:
Introduce a priority-targetting for the auto-targetting heals - in order to refine the combat system; its depth and overall integrity,
Maybe, even introduce some kind of (special) workaround for AoE Heals.

This will help small groups to engage larger ones, probably even with the planned AoE cap in place.