"Elite PvP Guilds" /doom ESO

TheGrandAlliance

ESO is not an E-Sport: The concept of an "E-sport" is a mythical fantasy. What happens however, is that instead of "winning" the map and taking/holding Emperor, an "elite" guild would much rather farm AP in order to boost their ranks.

As a result... servers including ones with high populations of these "Elite" guilds never go anywhere because they upset the balance of player population. They don't never hold what they take, they don't even care about Emperor most of the time, and the "randoms" that log in are thus clueless to everything. Nobody wins because "Elite" guilds only want to fight other "Elite" guilds and could care less about the End Game to which is the purpose of PvP.

Even if they do try to win (and farm Emperor Title) they will grief the life out of "non-elite" players. It would be better if they simply did not exist in this game in the first place. I don't want a bunch of /epicfail players:

1. Running around and not telling anyone what they are doing

2. Commiting forces (servers have pop cap which makes this a problem) into suicide situations that causes the entire faction to wipe, such as taking random keeps that do not further a strategy

3. Treat everyone else on the server as "lesser humans" such as "randoms" (players not associated with elite guilds)

4. Pretend that they actually are skilled when only few of them actually are

5. Assume that VoiceChat/Teamspeak is the ONLY vaild form of in-game communication and thus anything else is trash

6. Create "farming situations"... whereas intentionally losing in order to pull aggro to a keep... thus farming the inc players for AP

7. Disrupting chats by insulting players in /zone or otherwise

8. Hostile to thier own faction... treating them like enemies instead of the rival factions

9. Refusing to help new players (or even acknowledge their existance) learn PvP


Why should you care? Do you want the game to go F2P and/or be shut down? IT will if you "ban" 95-99% of the player base; who pays the subscription fees that fund this game from PvPing, for not being "good enough". Elite guilds only serve to destroy their own enviroment... like overpopulation. Until they understand this concept they will nuke one game's PvP after another. This "griefing" will never end until the "rest of us" realize this same-faction domestic violence is occuring and thus stand up to it so.


EDIT: I got a new reason to add to list...

10. Bail a server because the player(s) in first don't want to give it up for you to emperor farm it (thus plunging server into chaos)


....looks like my server (EU DAWNBREAKER) is about to be /doom as well...

Samadhi

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

...
...
5. Assume that VoiceChat/Teamspeak is the ONLY vaild form of in-game communication and thus anything else is trash
...

What do you suggest as a comparable alternative?
Typing during PvP gets people killed.

TheGrandAlliance

Samadhi wrote: »

What do you suggest as a comparable alternative?
Typing during PvP gets people killed.

Depends on the situation yes...but typing gets no one killed it fast enough and do so out of direct combat.

Nevertheless: I am fully aware that Elite guild refuse to talk to players that do not use TS even if only on a casual basis. Making annoucements in /zone doesn't require TS... general situational warning (INC) don't require TS... the whole reasoning behind TS is simply the subversion player skill.

Players that cannot do anything ("think for themselves") and thus depend on a Raidleader to shout out everything they do is contrary to the claim of "skill" that "elite" guilds "have".

Samadhi

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

...
Nevertheless: I am fully aware that Elite guild refuse to talk to players that do not use TS even if only on a casual basis. Making annoucements in /zone doesn't require TS... general situational warning (INC) don't require TS... the whole reasoning behind TS is simply the subversion player skill.
...

Could you clarify what you mean in the bolded portion?
Are you claiming that the use of TS subverts player skill, or am I misinterpreting your statement? If it does, how does it do so?

awkwarrd

You know there is a public ESO teamspeak yes?

TheGrandAlliance

Samadhi wrote: »

Are you claiming that the use of TS subverts player skill, or am I misinterpreting your statement?

Yes. Instead of actually fighting players spend the whole time screaming at each other. I have observed some "E-sports" myself in the form of GW2 and I don't understand why, if players are so skilled, need constant screaming of commands at each other.

"Skilled players" should be able to engage in what is generally referred to as "situation awareness"... that is know health of you, party, enemies, and not have to be "screamed" or even UI'ed to its existance. Forcing people to TS simply because apparently no one knows how to play the game, subverts the player's natural ability to play.


Furthermore the noise from TS ruins the in-game sound (which supposedly "elite guilds" turn off). Here is an example:

1. A player stealth/destealth (or otherwise makes an action that generates sound) but don't know where. If you had you sound turned up (and directional audio) you could simply hear the direction that they make the sound vs screaming over the TS, "OVER HERE OVER HERE", nonsense.
2. Hearing the firing of seige: If you cannot hear anything... then instead of simply hearing the thunder of a seige weapon begin (and the wall they are hitting) players instead have to scream over the TS again.
3. Sound feedback. This game has a good soundscape: You can hear player's weapons/skills both charge-up and execution sounds. If you have sound turned off or otherwise you cannot hear the noise a enemy makes before they do it. As a result... more screaming.


Thus, as a few examples; as to the reason why TS is a bad thing, as overused as currently, and thus "subverts player skill". Thus elite guilds "forcing" player ona server to use TS or "to go home" approach ruins "True PvP" and greifs video games in general.

In a "real" battle... esp given the fantasy nature of the game: You cannot TS to each other. You probably couldn't even hear each other in a real battle. Thus, if you cannot fight without TS: You are not really skilled at all.

Genev

Speaking of, VoTF is always looking for good guilds to fight! Let us know if you are interested.

MikePaixao

So you are saying that I must be the worse player ever, seeing as my constant watching of youtube and netflix on my second monitor doesn't "qualify" as true fantasy? I don't talk to anyone in-game and I have no problem jumping into fights.

Using something like teamspeak can free up your hands from having to take the time to type commands, there is no comparison. and being in a pug team generally no one would listen anyway

if i see one of these so-called elite guilds, its pretty straight forward to figure out what they are doing... not to mention THE GAME JUST RELEASED, I heard the same type of complaints in just about every mmo release, theres always a chaos at the start, then it settles into Meta game, then eventually the better players just dominate. I can already picture your next thread of "pvp'ers with top tier gear are ruining the game"

Zerl

You'll find that majority of PVP Guilds will working towards assisting their Faction as it benefits them in the long run. The type of elitist guilds that you refer to are in general the minority, and their actions shouldn't dictate the outcome of the overall progress of the Faction (unless people are sheeping it and following them). I tend to simply ignore people who spout abuse over zone chat (pretty much the same as when I see Guilds spam in chat).

Personally, the bigger problem is those "CAPSLOCK COMMANDERS" that shout out orders that holds no benefit to the Faction whatsoever...

Prime example was this weekend, when EP had a keep that was under heavy attack (from AD) that had direct links to 2 other keeps that held ES. Captain Capslock was shouting about how Players MUST help defend a keep that was deep in DC territory and held no strategic value (whilst complain that EP was full of Noobs as he wasn't getting the help he demanded).

Myself and a few others contested his strategy and advised that the ES were more important, and (thankfully) the majority appeared to agree and moved to defend the ES. The defence was successful and we were still holding the ES when I left Cyrodiil.

Samadhi

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

...
Thus, as a few examples; as to the reason why TS is a bad thing, as overused as currently, and thus "subverts player skill". Thus elite guilds "forcing" player ona server to use TS or "to go home" approach ruins "True PvP" and greifs video games in general.
...

In a group setting, I find proper communication far more valuable than sound effects. So much so that I no longer group with people I can't adequately communicate with.

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

...
In a "real" battle... esp given the fantasy nature of the game: You cannot TS to each other. You probably couldn't even hear each other in a real battle. Thus, if you cannot fight without TS: You are not really skilled at all.

But what about the people who are seeking to PvP rather than RP?

MikePaixao wrote: »

So you are saying that I must be the worse player ever, seeing as my constant watching of youtube and netflix on my second monitor doesn't "qualify" as true fantasy? I don't talk to anyone in-game and I have no problem jumping into fights.
...

You can't be as bad as me.
I wrote this post on my second computer while letting my character auto-run between keeps on my gaming computer.

Xsorus

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

ESO is not an E-Sport: The concept of an "E-sport" is a mythical fantasy. What happens however, is that instead of "winning" the map and taking/holding Emperor, an "elite" guild would much rather farm AP in order to boost their ranks.

As a result... servers including ones with high populations of these "Elite" guilds never go anywhere because they upset the balance of player population. They don't never hold what they take, they don't even care about Emperor most of the time, and the "randoms" that log in are thus clueless to everything. Nobody wins because "Elite" guilds only want to fight other "Elite" guilds and could care less about the End Game to which is the purpose of PvP.

It would be better if they simply did not exist in this game in the first place. I don't want a bunch of /epicfail players:

1. Running around and not telling anyone what they are doing

2. Commiting forces (to which said servers have pop cap makes this a problem) into suicide situations that causes the entire faction to wipe, such as taking random keeps that do not further a strategy

3. Treat everyone else on the server as "lesser humans" such as "randoms" (players not associated with elite guilds)

4. Pretend that they actually are skilled when only few of them actually are

5. Assume that VoiceChat/Teamspeak is the ONLY vaild form of in-game communication and thus anything else is trash

6. Create "farming situations"... whereas intentionally losing in order to pull aggro to a keep... thus farming the inc players for AP

7. Disrupting chats by insulting players in /zone or otherwise

8. Hostile to thier own faction... treating them like enemies instead of the rival factions


I am tired of the so-called "Elite" guilds nuking one PvP experience after another... and this griefing will never end until the "rest of us" realize this domestic same-faction violence is occuring and thus stand up to it so...

You clearly have no idea how RvR actually works, or how the game this one is modeled after worked...

Might I suggest you go back to GW2, and run in a circle taking empty keeps on the karma train....Its clearly more suited for players like yourself.

ricozrwb17_ESO

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Are you claiming that the use of TS subverts player skill, or am I misinterpreting your statement?

Yes. Instead of actually fighting players spend the whole time screaming at each other. I have observed some "E-sports" myself in the form of GW2 and I don't understand why, if players are so skilled, need constant screaming of commands at each other.

"Skilled players" should be able to engage in what is generally referred to as "situation awareness"... that is know health of you, party, enemies, and not have to be "screamed" or even UI'ed to its existance. Forcing people to TS simply because apparently no one knows how to play the game, subverts the player's natural ability to play.


Furthermore the noise from TS ruins the in-game sound (which supposedly "elite guilds" turn off). Here is an example:

1. A player stealth/destealth (or otherwise makes an action that generates sound) but don't know where. If you had you sound turned up (and directional audio) you could simply hear the direction that they make the sound vs screaming over the TS, "OVER HERE OVER HERE", nonsense.
2. Hearing the firing of seige: If you cannot hear anything... then instead of simply hearing the thunder of a seige weapon begin (and the wall they are hitting) players instead have to scream over the TS again.
3. Sound feedback. This game has a good soundscape: You can hear player's weapons/skills both charge-up and execution sounds. If you have sound turned off or otherwise you cannot hear the noise a enemy makes before they do it. As a result... more screaming.


Thus, as a few examples; as to the reason why TS is a bad thing, as overused as currently, and thus "subverts player skill". Thus elite guilds "forcing" player ona server to use TS or "to go home" approach ruins "True PvP" and greifs video games in general.

In a "real" battle... esp given the fantasy nature of the game: You cannot TS to each other. You probably couldn't even hear each other in a real battle. Thus, if you cannot fight without TS: You are not really skilled at all.

You know its really easy to use ur own argument against you. If you have to spend time watching chat to see whats going on, how are you going to watch your surrounding thus the lack of situational awareness.

In a "real" battle... esp given the fantasy nature of the game: You cannot type to each other. You probably couldn't even see the chat box in a real battle. Thus, if you cannot fight without a chat box: You are not really skilled at all.

feldegast_92_ESO

The fun thing here is that I had a chat with OP yesterday, and he called the guild I'm in an elite guild and tried to criticize what we do, so I have a feeling that it's us he's talking about when he wrote this thread. Now for OP:s 8 list of 8 points, it's only two points that are true to a certain extent about us. For us it's number 1 and 5. Yes, we don't say everything that we're doing in zone chat (just like no one else does). And yes, we only see Teamspeak as the competitively viable option to communicate.

You seem to have a twisted generalized idea of what an elite guild is OP.

LadyChaos

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

ESO is not an E-Sport: The concept of an "E-sport" is a mythical fantasy. What happens however, is that instead of "winning" the map and taking/holding Emperor, an "elite" guild would much rather farm AP in order to boost their ranks.

As a result... servers including ones with high populations of these "Elite" guilds never go anywhere because they upset the balance of player population. They don't never hold what they take, they don't even care about Emperor most of the time, and the "randoms" that log in are thus clueless to everything. Nobody wins because "Elite" guilds only want to fight other "Elite" guilds and could care less about the End Game to which is the purpose of PvP.

It would be better if they simply did not exist in this game in the first place. I don't want a bunch of /epicfail players:

1. Running around and not telling anyone what they are doing

2. Commiting forces (to which said servers have pop cap makes this a problem) into suicide situations that causes the entire faction to wipe, such as taking random keeps that do not further a strategy

3. Treat everyone else on the server as "lesser humans" such as "randoms" (players not associated with elite guilds)

4. Pretend that they actually are skilled when only few of them actually are

5. Assume that VoiceChat/Teamspeak is the ONLY vaild form of in-game communication and thus anything else is trash

6. Create "farming situations"... whereas intentionally losing in order to pull aggro to a keep... thus farming the inc players for AP

7. Disrupting chats by insulting players in /zone or otherwise

8. Hostile to thier own faction... treating them like enemies instead of the rival factions


I am tired of the so-called "Elite" guilds nuking one PvP experience after another... and this griefing will never end until the "rest of us" realize this domestic same-faction violence is occuring and thus stand up to it so...

In GW2, our server had weekly meeting between the big guilds (and whoever felt inclined to participate), to determine our plan for the upcoming week etc. This helped make us extremely successful. We specifically pointed out and tried to enforce not alienating the "PUGs"... The GLs would pass down that type of server-wide directive via their guild and who they picked up. We squashed the elitist behavior of some (when possible) who told people to get out, or get on Voice, even some of our own higher elites in the guilds.

This was strategy as much as good sportsmanship. These same elitist guilds can also be an order restoring factor as much as strife causing. IMO, get into a guild you like and lobby for them to organize and barter relations with the servers guilds. You must be part of the system to fix the system, no one listens to an "outsider" easily.

Much like the solo players screaming in zone chat that everyone is dumb because no one followed them; If you don't invest into gaining influence with the people you want to change hey will ignore you, no matter how brilliant your concepts or plans might be.

My opinion: You cannot change any other players behaviors if you don't have influence with them. That goes for the larger groups to which they belong as well.

Imryll

I thought that the long-term plan (i.e. once a preponderance of players reach max level) was to track players to campaigns based on rank? If similarly ranked players are tracked to appropriate campaigns, this should become a non-issue.

I don't think you can make too many assumptions based on how the system functions the first couple weeks after release. Of course if ranked campaigns have gone the way of the questionnaires we were going to get to fill out saying whether we wanted to be phased with RPers or hardcore PvEers, there may be reason for concern.

Victim

You are a madman, there is so much nonsense here I find it hard to process your views. I am part of a very capable PvP guild and we hold objectives and get emperor for our faction, in fact 13 of the top 15 on the leaderboard are from my guild and when we joined this server it was bottom of the list and in 2 days we carried it to the top, it is now a night capping zerg server and we want nothing more than to get the hell out.
You strike me as one of those guys who TALK IN ALL CAPS IN ZONE CHAT TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO BECAUSE YOU ARE THE BOSS AND CONSTANTLY GET UPSET BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LISTENING TO YOU. I think you need to step back and chill out. Large scale PvP like this caters to more than just 1 type of player. You need to understand that, we do.

What this game is missing is guild tags. It would solve everything and prevent the mass exodus of good players and guilds that will come when Wildstar is released. Good guilds don't want to fight pug scrubs, they want to fight each other but it is hard to other guild and there is almost no way to spot them.

Give us guild tags and that will keep people happy.

Izkimar

I know this guild Best in Slot, they took a scroll to a bridge just so the PvP could come to them and they could farm AP. Crazy right? Here's the link.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=smHoOsOwQ9A

Yankee

Screw that, I am using some sort of voice comms when the group will.

I can barely type or barely fight, much less type and fight at the same time.

Pryda

Best in Slot, VoTf.. these guilds are ruinning my immersion.

Musou

Might as well say, it would be best if idk, 50% of player base should leave the game coz they don't type in chat and RP with other ppl. Plus the servers would be less loaded thus improving your personal gameplay. /s

Anyway, useless post is useless. In most faction vs faction games, top guilds are also the ones doing top job. Otherwise they wouldn't be top...go figure. In GW2, as a recent example, you knew exactly which guild was good, and if you did, you also knew they deserved the reputation by doing what must be done, not by being elitist ***, since if no skill, you quickly got ur ass handed to you. Similarly, a whole faction could be losing the map, even tho they typed the hell out of chat, but if 1 "elite" guild /w good commander joined the map (talking about 10-20 ppl, not a zerg), they could overturn the score in 15 min.

Izkimar

Pryda wrote: »

Best in Slot, VoTf.. these guilds are ruinning my immersion.

So much immersion killed between us all!

Asltok

Without the elite guilds it's a mass of uninformed players running around with their heads cut off, screaming at the other players over who's the campaign leader or who should be aloud to talk in zone chat.

We need them like they need the zerg.

TheGrandAlliance

ricozrwb17_ESO wrote: »

You know its really easy to use ur own argument against you. If you have to spend time watching chat to see whats going on, how are you going to watch your surrounding thus the lack of situational awareness.

In a "real" battle... esp given the fantasy nature of the game: You cannot type to each other. You probably couldn't even see the chat box in a real battle. Thus, if you cannot fight without a chat box: You are not really skilled at all.

...Thats why I am saying that the overreliance on in-game communication is bad, whether typing or voice.

In terms of reading typed messages... however it takes less then a second for most humans to read a line of text. It is like driving a car or flying a plane: Looking at the instroments. Whereas a no-sound voice chat is like flying/driving without being able to hear the engine.

TheGrandAlliance

feldegast_92_ESO wrote: »

The fun thing here is that I had a chat with OP yesterday, and he called the guild I'm in an elite guild and tried to criticize what we do, so I have a feeling that it's us he's talking about when he wrote this thread.

Well yes if that was him then yes. However my observations are based upon even beta activities, and ones on my home server Dawnbreaker and the guilds I have to deal with there. Only recently have they agreed to "negotiate" between the guilds/players on that server.

chrisub17_ESO104

This post is sad. Trashing people who simply play the game at higher level then you do.

For anyone reading this post that's not in one of these so called elite guilds. A lot of them actively recruit. Usually they just want people who are team players, even if they don't have a lot of experience, as long as they are willing to learn and play a a team.

tawok

TL:DR

Darka

My rules for myself in pvp

Have fun
Dont worry if you die, we all do.
Learn from mistakes
Try different things
Play with friends
Help new people


On a side note I use Teamspeak to chat with guild members, laugh and for in game needs
I find it works wonders for situations in pvp, I can just say what i need rather then type it out and that allows me to fight any incoming while supporting my group/situation

Taking time to type something out just to die or end up with 1232115231231help2231 reply in chat doesnt help me either

lao

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

What do you suggest as a comparable alternative?
Typing during PvP gets people killed.

Depends on the situation yes...but typing gets no one killed it fast enough and do so out of direct combat.

Nevertheless: I am fully aware that Elite guild refuse to talk to players that do not use TS even if only on a casual basis. Making annoucements in /zone doesn't require TS... general situational warning (INC) don't require TS... the whole reasoning behind TS is simply the subversion player skill.

Players that cannot do anything ("think for themselves") and thus depend on a Raidleader to shout out everything they do is contrary to the claim of "skill" that "elite" guilds "have".

id never ever invite some1 to my rvr group that cant join AND speak on ts. this doesnt even have anything to do with elitism at that point. its a matter of convienience. im not going to type or read during combat situations. especially cos there is zero valid reasons to not be on voicecom in a game. it makes it 1000 times more fun to play aswell. and yes ofc its also alot more effective as u can actually coordinate.

oh yea and TS in those "elite guilds" u talk about is nothing like u imagine. there is no raidleader giving out commands. its ppl calling out what they are doing and seeing atm so party members can act accordingly. some examples for that would be "healer on the right free", "im on the mage", using this ulti on backline", "taking big dmg", "im CC´d cant assist" etcetc the list goes on. little info like that makes a massive difference in the performance of the entire group so why would u ever not wanna use it.

so yea call me an elitist if u want but if some1 refuses to join ts then he is out.

Kingslayer

I've just been in tears laughing reading that. I am apart of one of the said EU guilds we don't trash the zergs we just slaughter the other factions. That being said we don't have any members who can't use voice. In Large scale Pvp coordination is key especially when its a small team fighting zergs much larger then they are. The Elite guilds are usually what create the big fights, I joined my campaign late last night after my guild had been to bed and we were winning yet the zerg was attacking keep arrius It was taking them 45 minutes and the outer wall was still partially standing and it wasn't because of the defenders most of EP were offline and only a few actually on.

Aneu

lao wrote: »

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

What do you suggest as a comparable alternative?
Typing during PvP gets people killed.

Depends on the situation yes...but typing gets no one killed it fast enough and do so out of direct combat.

Nevertheless: I am fully aware that Elite guild refuse to talk to players that do not use TS even if only on a casual basis. Making annoucements in /zone doesn't require TS... general situational warning (INC) don't require TS... the whole reasoning behind TS is simply the subversion player skill.

Players that cannot do anything ("think for themselves") and thus depend on a Raidleader to shout out everything they do is contrary to the claim of "skill" that "elite" guilds "have".

id never ever invite some1 to my rvr group that cant join AND speak on ts. this doesnt even have anything to do with elitism at that point. its a matter of convienience. im not going to type or read during combat situations. especially cos there is zero valid reasons to not be on voicecom in a game. it makes it 1000 times more fun to play aswell. and yes ofc its also alot more effective as u can actually coordinate.

oh yea and TS in those "elite guilds" u talk about is nothing like u imagine. there is no raidleader giving out commands. its ppl calling out what they are doing and seeing atm so party members can act accordingly. some examples for that would be "healer on the right free", "im on the mage", using this ulti on backline", "taking big dmg", "im CC´d cant assist" etcetc the list goes on. little info like that makes a massive difference in the performance of the entire group so why would u ever not wanna use it.

so yea call me an elitist if u want but if some1 refuses to join ts then he is out.

lol

TheGrandAlliance

My server (Dawnbreaker EU), and perhaps some others are starting to suffer more elitism. As players start to "win" more it gets to their heads and they become "elites". Even if you are loyal player: IF you don't do what they want they will shut you down fast.

As a result... someone who has been active from launch day can be effectivly "banned" from their own server simply given this human "follow the herd" behavior. As someone who has my own "power" I can deal with the situation. However new players don't stand a chance: If they are not elite players then they don't even want you on the server.

This is a /epicfail future for ESO PvP if allowed to continue.