"Elite PvP Guilds" /doom ESO

Gaudrath

It's not "your" genre. Never was, never will be. You "pro" PvPers are a very small minority of the playerbase. So from ZOS' point of view, which is the only one that really matters as far as this game is concerned, it is your kind who is "nonfactor".

You could all leave tomorrow, and nobody would even notice it. Actually, with that kind of attitude, the game might even improve a little. If all the casuals left, the game would be belly up within a month.

And for the love of god, don't drag poor Einstein into this.

lao

Gaudrath wrote: »

It's not "your" genre. Never was, never will be. You "pro" PvPers are a very small minority of the playerbase. So from ZOS' point of view, which is the only one that really matters as far as this game is concerned, it is your kind who is "nonfactor".

You could all leave tomorrow, and nobody would even notice it. Actually, with that kind of attitude, the game might even improve a little. If all the casuals left, the game would be belly up within a month.

And for the love of god, don't drag poor Einstein into this.

1) we werent always a small minority. infact we were the standard 10-15 years ago. it was your kind that came later and acted like if u own the genre. so yeah, ur just some unwanted guests, thats it. now get out.

2) if we all left there would be no1 u could look up to, there would be no1 u could be jealous of. there would be no1 u could hate on. there would be no1 you could try to be like.

in short, u would get bored even faster than u do anyways and hop to the next game even faster than u already do and the game would die even faster. you need us more than ur capable to understand. we however, dont need you. we were fine before you were here and we´ll be fine when ur gone. infact we will be alot better off when ur gone cos then developers could actually make proper games again instead of the jokes they called mmos during the last decade.

3) i knew einstein would be way too high level for you to comprehend. sry that i tried melting ur one dimensional peanut err i mean brain.

Gaudrath

1) Well, you're not standard anymore. You're obsolete. And nobody cares. You're out, the new crowd is in. Way of the world. By the way, I was gaming when MMOs were called MUDs, how about you?

2) Friend, I do have a life, a job and a family, really doubtful I'd draw my inspiration from PvP "pros". Also, as it happens, I do coding for a living, so it is kinda hard for me to be jealous of someone who learned how to press <10 keys on their keyboard. I press them all the time too, but in much more complex combinations, you know.
And don't know about others, but I stopped hating on random internet strangers a long time ago. That's stressful, don't need it.

2.5) If developers only had immature "hardcore" PvPers to sell their games to, the industry would be quickly relocated back to their parents' garages.

3) Oh come on now, you'll get this thread locked, and it's so much fun.

lao

Gaudrath wrote: »

1) Well, you're not standard anymore. You're obsolete. And nobody cares. You're out, the new crowd is in. Way of the world. By the way, I was gaming when MMOs were called MUDs, how about you?

2) Friend, I do have a life, a job and a family, really doubtful I'd draw my inspiration from PvP "pros". Also, as it happens, I do coding for a living, so it is kinda hard for me to be jealous of someone who learned how to press <10 keys on their keyboard. I press them all the time too, but in much more complex combinations, you know.
And don't know about others, but I stopped hating on random internet strangers a long time ago. That's stressful, don't need it.

2.5) If developers only had immature "hardcore" PvPers to sell their games to, the industry would be quickly relocated back to their parents' garages.

3) Oh come on now, you'll get this thread locked, and it's so much fun.

1) and u call me ignorant. game, set and match right here. kkthxbye u wont be missed.

2) so much denial hahah. if what u say was even the slightest bit true this thread wouldnt even exist. btw im a coder too (well atleast uni said i am, not working with that boring crap anymore tho(sys administration > code monkeys)) so im good at gaming and coding. damn i must be amazing. im however not sure how this is relevant.
also ur hating right now, son.

2.5) would still be better off than what it is right now lol. atleast it would still be worth playing the few games there are.

3) dont care, pointless discussion anyways. you kids will never get to the point where your´re good enough to understand.

ZOS_CatK

Hello everyone!

While we absolutely welcome and endorse guild discussions on our forums, we wish to remind you that these are to be done politely and constructively. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please familiarize yourself with our Forum Rules and adhere to them any time you make a post. You can find them here: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/60843/community-rules
Thank you.

RaZaddha

lao wrote: »

Gaudrath wrote: »

1) Well, you're not standard anymore. You're obsolete. And nobody cares. You're out, the new crowd is in. Way of the world. By the way, I was gaming when MMOs were called MUDs, how about you?

2) Friend, I do have a life, a job and a family, really doubtful I'd draw my inspiration from PvP "pros". Also, as it happens, I do coding for a living, so it is kinda hard for me to be jealous of someone who learned how to press <10 keys on their keyboard. I press them all the time too, but in much more complex combinations, you know.
And don't know about others, but I stopped hating on random internet strangers a long time ago. That's stressful, don't need it.

2.5) If developers only had immature "hardcore" PvPers to sell their games to, the industry would be quickly relocated back to their parents' garages.

3) Oh come on now, you'll get this thread locked, and it's so much fun.

1) and u call me ignorant. game, set and match right here. kkthxbye u wont be missed.

2) so much denial hahah. if what u say was even the slightest bit true this thread wouldnt even exist. btw im a coder too (well atleast uni said i am, not working with that boring crap anymore tho(sys administration > code monkeys)) so im good at gaming and coding. damn i must be amazing. im however not sure how this is relevant.
also ur hating right now, son.

2.5) would still be better off than what it is right now lol. atleast it would still be worth playing the few games there are.

3) dont care, pointless discussion anyways. you kids will never get to the point where your´re good enough to understand.

So, whats your motives for even posting on this forum? All I have seen you do is rant on every post, you have no respect for anyone and you don't care about anything but your own restricted playstyle. Do you have a personal crusade or something to try to put down every single player you "deem casual"? Is your only motive for posting to complain about how this game isn't hardcore enough and how casuals ruin everything? Is this your personality in real life or are you just being a *** in here because you are anonymous? Trash talking everyone you meet that doesn't follow your personal standards? Making assumptions based on no real evidence? You know what they say when you make assumptions?

No, I'm not a zergling, I left GW2 due to how mind numbing boring the combat became not even roaming/scouting satisfied me anymore due to abuse of FOTM builds, I'm also one of the vocal voices against AoE caps on this forum because of how it decreases skill ceiling, how turtle wars is completely unfun. Maybe you should think before you assume something and offend someone, it just makes you look dumb.

Btw, this thread only started because GrandAlliance wears a tinfoil hat.

lao

RaZaddha wrote: »

lao wrote: »

Gaudrath wrote: »

1) Well, you're not standard anymore. You're obsolete. And nobody cares. You're out, the new crowd is in. Way of the world. By the way, I was gaming when MMOs were called MUDs, how about you?

2) Friend, I do have a life, a job and a family, really doubtful I'd draw my inspiration from PvP "pros". Also, as it happens, I do coding for a living, so it is kinda hard for me to be jealous of someone who learned how to press <10 keys on their keyboard. I press them all the time too, but in much more complex combinations, you know.
And don't know about others, but I stopped hating on random internet strangers a long time ago. That's stressful, don't need it.

2.5) If developers only had immature "hardcore" PvPers to sell their games to, the industry would be quickly relocated back to their parents' garages.

3) Oh come on now, you'll get this thread locked, and it's so much fun.

1) and u call me ignorant. game, set and match right here. kkthxbye u wont be missed.

2) so much denial hahah. if what u say was even the slightest bit true this thread wouldnt even exist. btw im a coder too (well atleast uni said i am, not working with that boring crap anymore tho(sys administration > code monkeys)) so im good at gaming and coding. damn i must be amazing. im however not sure how this is relevant.
also ur hating right now, son.

2.5) would still be better off than what it is right now lol. atleast it would still be worth playing the few games there are.

3) dont care, pointless discussion anyways. you kids will never get to the point where your´re good enough to understand.

So, whats your motives for even posting on this forum? All I have seen you do is rant on every post, you have no respect for anyone and you don't care about anything but your own restricted playstyle. Do you have a personal crusade or something to try to put down every single player you "deem casual"? Is your only motive for posting to complain about how this game isn't hardcore enough and how casuals ruin everything? Is this your personality in real life or are you just being a *** in here because you are anonymous? Trash talking everyone you meet that doesn't follow your personal standards? Making assumptions based on no real evidence? You know what they say when you make assumptions?

No, I'm not a zergling, I left GW2 due to how mind numbing boring the combat became not even roaming/scouting satisfied me anymore due to abuse of FOTM builds, I'm also one of the vocal voices against AoE caps on this forum because of how it decreases skill ceiling, how turtle wars is completely unfun. Maybe you should think before you assume something and offend someone, it just makes you look dumb.

Btw, this thread only started because GrandAlliance wears a tinfoil hat.

i thought i made my motives clear already. fine ill try one last time.

CAREFUL very very long post inc.

my motive is to put this game on the right track before its too late. the problem with the game´s pvp is that its fundamentally flawed by design. it will never work and no amount of balance patches can change that. it is flawed cos developers dont listen to ppl that know what they talking about anymore. they listen to what the casual crowd wants because they aim at those as their primary target group.

this is the first major mistake and the root to all other mistakes beeing made throughout the development process. ive said in beta already that the system we have now is bound to fail and only a complete remake of the entire pvp can fix this.

yes believe it or not, it is literally that bad. what baffles me about it is that this exact same thing has happened countless times in the past already. warhammer, swtor, gw2 and now eso just to name a few examples. they all failed for the exact same reason (tho gw2 and eso take the failing to a new level of awful.)

it is very vital that u get the next thing into ur head. u cannot under no circumstances ever design an mmo in a way so it pleases the masses because what u get then is a dumbed down boring simple crap version of combat that is no fun at all to anyone remotely good and only fun for a very short time to everyone else.

now the casuals dont have the experience to realize this (until they are bored and quit themself) thats why u get fanboys defending the game in its current state. they simply arent bored yet cos they can kill something for once cos the game is easy and not challenging but they will get bored very soon for that very same reason.

they had good intentions for the game when they designed it but their solution to important matters is extremely poor. lets go through an example.

it was advertized that it would be possible to win outnumbered in this game and it is true. the problem is the way u win outnumbered in this game is entirely wrong. this is not a personal opinion this is a fact and ill explain why.

how eso does it.

eso is heavily centered around stacking aoes in order to kill big zergs. having no real CC immunity makes it possible to just have a couple of DK´s spam talons while sorcs can just stack aoes on them. add a supernova here and there to make it even easier. yes u can roll out of talons true but since there is no immunity for it u will just get instantly talon´d again. rince repeat until ur out of stamina or dead. this system works beautyfully to kill massive zergs with very little numbers. the problem is, it takes absolutely zero skill whatsoever. there is no challenge in doing that and therefor it gets boring really fast.

how it should be done.

what u want instead is an actual REAL CC system with long duration mezzes/roots and long, and this is very important, SEPERATE immunities for both CC types. this makes good players able to juggle CC´s and also stops ppl from blindly aoeing into huge clumps of ppl cos it would break the CC. it also adds another huge skillfactor cos ur CCer actually needs to land those aoe mezzes before the opponent does. also aoe mezz and aoe root should be on different chars. both have to be ranged spells aswell. also there needs to be some kind of single target cure mezz on ONE class.
in addition to that u want a REAL interupt system. that means EVERY spell/skill/light attack/whatever will cause an interupt on EVERY spell ur trying to cast. there cant be any uninteruptable spells AT ALL. there also has to be a timer of 3-5 secs before u can cast again. best solution would be to make it 3 secs but make it reset if u try casting too early which would make it 5 secs. that way ppl would have to dedicate some attention to actually interupt casts. it would again add a huge skill element cos then ur positioning would actually really matter.
ppl who suck at positioning will just die without getting a single spell off and thats how it should be.

onto the next major flaw in the design.

a total of 12 spells available in combat at a time? 12?! like srsly? and that is only in theory. sometimes ull want the same spell available to you in both weapon sets and lets not even take laggy weapon switch or toggle abilities like leeching strikes into account. there is literally no way to ever make a that heavily limited combat system fun, let alone challenging or god forbid, competitive. that whole concept needs to be thrown into the trashbin and some real quickbars need to be introduced. there is no salvation for the current system.

thats just the most important flaws in the combat system. lets look at cyrodiil itself now.

the whole pvp is objective based. that is absolutely terrible design and bound to bore ppl no matter if hardcore players or casuals very fast. infact its already happening. how they could not forsee this is beyond the world of reason.

now lets remove all objectives and have skirmishes all day u ask? yes could work but no u can have objectives. they cannot be the center of the action tho. look at DAoC if u wanna see a good example on how to introduce objectives into pvp. they should fill a specific role that in no way is relevant to every day business in pvp. the focus MUST be on roaming pvp if u wanna keep ppl entertained for a long time.

next issue - 24 ppl groups

like srsly whoever came up with the idea to have a group cap of 24 - lay down that crack pipe bro. make it 5 or maybe 8 but not more than that. u dont wanna encourage zerging in ANY WAY. reason for that? well, simple, the more ppl u have in ur group the less ur own performance effects the outcome of a fight. this leads to ppl getting bored fast. really not much to add to that. everyone who has played a pvp game for more than an hour should know this.

next flaw - stealth for everyone

thats actually a pretty big one. it encourages camping over roaming. only NB should be able to stealth. really that simple.

another (smaller) issue - mounts

simple, get rid of them. instead introduce a class with an out of combat running speed buff that works for your GROUP. note: GROUP not every frikkin ally in the area.


maybe u can see a pattern. every single of those flawed mechanics are flawed because the developers tried to please the masses. every class is build in a jack of all trades way. proof: every class is viable solo. while this might not be directly related to group play it is a really really bad thing. it means that every class can sort of fill every role which reduces the amount of teamwork needed dramatically. classes need to be more specific to fill one roll in a group. maybe 2 roles heal+CCer in one class works well together f.e. that class however shouldnt be able to do any significant dmg.


i wanna mention one more flaw in the game design (there is many many more but im tired of typing )

synergys

eso has them but they are implemented in a really stupid way. run into an aoe and press x? like cmon, can it be anymore braindead then that? what u wanna do instead for example is debuff nukes. 1 guy has lets say a fire debuff - he calls out a target and debuffs it then the next guy starts nuking it with fire dmg. the difference between a debuffed nuke and an undebuffed nuke has to be significant. like atleast twice the dmg or more. undebuffed nukes shouldnt drop anything in any reasonable time which makes coordinated debuffing a nessecarity.

those are just the flawed core mechanics that will mean doom for this game in the near future. if those were fixed it would guarantee the game to live for a very long time tho cos the potential is all there. the engine is pretty solid. melee feels like ur actually hitting something (this is actually a huge issue in alot of mmos like WoW, warhammer,tera, just to name a few that screwed it up royally), no GCD and therefor spammable nukes. all that makes for a solid base. everything else would just be minor adjustments but with the current flaws ive mentioned above the game wont survive its first year.

Gaudrath

Your entire post is a huge digression, but let's indulge it.

You cannot design a mass PvP game that is zerg-proof. Can't be done. If you allow players to combine their numbers in any way, they will do it until the point of saturation. They will literally crash the server if allowed. They will do it even if they know what's going to happen.

Then you mention hard AoE CC - well, now you made a game where everyone is perma-stunned all the time because each zerg brought 20 guys for each CC type. At least you can roll out of talons.

"Real" interrupts? So the player who fires the first shot wins. Nice design there. It would work especially well with class specific stealth. You know what stealth allows you to do? Fire the first shot. And now you have given that exclusively to one class.

Please don't be a game designer.

Plus, *everything* you mentioned has been tried in one game or another and everything failed. Because players love to stack. The other side has three guys? We'll bring five. Now they saw that and brought another ten. So we call our side to bring another twenty.

And soon we have a blob fight.

Remove objectives and make skirmishing the primary goal in Cyrodiil? You think that people won't zerg together and just blob it out in the open field?

The only thing I can think of is to introduce an element of chaos to reduce the effectiveness of zergs. Meaning AoE skills are extremely expensive and situational and 90% of the skills are single-target only. Eve Online has something like that, but the problem in that game is the extremely advanced targetting and fleet coordination system, which allows huge fleets to stay organized.

Remove that and zergs start to be counter productive. Introduce friendly fire on top of that and zergs become self-destructive. FF would solve the AoE problem as well - you could even have extremely powerful AoE spells - but people would think twice before casting Fire Storm or Huge Fireball if it meant they could accidentally wipe a dozen of their own guys.

And the reason the above will never happen? Money. As I said, "old school" PvPers are an obsolete minority. They don't pay the bills. They don't make the game run. They are a niche crowd and AAA titles never cater to niche crowds because they can't afford it.

And *none* of the above is any justification to treat other players like trash that's taking up space in "your" genre. Your genre is history.

Nidwin

Lao is looking for a DaoC 2 so I can understand he's a bit disappointed with TESO's RvR.

Here in TESO they opted for a different kind of gameplay and combat system.

No group skills but faction wide impact of aoe skills. It's a different approach where positioning becomes more important and you can't just ask your Healer/Support to do his/her stuff 100ft from the action.

Short CC with short immunity timers. I would prefer to have longer immunity timers but let's see how it goes.

No cooldowns on skills and that was actually welcomed by a large part of the player base. Less skills available but spamable, except ult's. Both systems works for me and both are fun to play.

At the moment aoe damage dump is the flavor of the month, flavor of the first month. As expected and seen in most PvP/RvR games at launch. This because of bugs/flaws and because it's the easiest mode of game play. Let's wait and see till the bugs are fixed and the assist melee trains start to roll out.
It's always like that. Ez-mode first efficiency later on.
Everyone can charge (pounce) and I've already seen plenty of Marauders using TE, called DK's here. This favors the mdps trains normally.

Circle Jerking Zergs won't work here as the map is way too big and there are way too many keeps/objectives to take/defend. Zerg, alas Thar Bus, can only move as fast as it's slowest elements. Spreading out is going the way to go.

lao

Gaudrath wrote: »

Your entire post is a huge digression, but let's indulge it.

You cannot design a mass PvP game that is zerg-proof. Can't be done. If you allow players to combine their numbers in any way, they will do it until the point of saturation. They will literally crash the server if allowed. They will do it even if they know what's going to happen.

Then you mention hard AoE CC - well, now you made a game where everyone is perma-stunned all the time because each zerg brought 20 guys for each CC type. At least you can roll out of talons.

"Real" interrupts? So the player who fires the first shot wins. Nice design there. It would work especially well with class specific stealth. You know what stealth allows you to do? Fire the first shot. And now you have given that exclusively to one class.

Please don't be a game designer.

Plus, *everything* you mentioned has been tried in one game or another and everything failed. Because players love to stack. The other side has three guys? We'll bring five. Now they saw that and brought another ten. So we call our side to bring another twenty.

And soon we have a blob fight.

Remove objectives and make skirmishing the primary goal in Cyrodiil? You think that people won't zerg together and just blob it out in the open field?

The only thing I can think of is to introduce an element of chaos to reduce the effectiveness of zergs. Meaning AoE skills are extremely expensive and situational and 90% of the skills are single-target only. Eve Online has something like that, but the problem in that game is the extremely advanced targetting and fleet coordination system, which allows huge fleets to stay organized.

Remove that and zergs start to be counter productive. Introduce friendly fire on top of that and zergs become self-destructive. FF would solve the AoE problem as well - you could even have extremely powerful AoE spells - but people would think twice before casting Fire Storm or Huge Fireball if it meant they could accidentally wipe a dozen of their own guys.

And the reason the above will never happen? Money. As I said, "old school" PvPers are an obsolete minority. They don't pay the bills. They don't make the game run. They are a niche crowd and AAA titles never cater to niche crowds because they can't afford it.

And *none* of the above is any justification to treat other players like trash that's taking up space in "your" genre. Your genre is history.

oh dear. please never post again. ur so extremely far off reality im not even gonna bother to explain to you where u went wrong. just be silent. seriously i mean it..

if even reading is beyond ur realm of comprehension then there is seriously no point discussing anything with you. this is not a flame or a personal insult that is simply a fact and that can be seen by anyone who is capable of understanding the written word.

srsly how can anyone wonder why i dislike casuals after a reply like that? as i said the problem is not that ppl are casual. the problem is that alot of them have the mental capability of that guy. stubborn, clueless and even reading gives him trouble. and thats the type of player developers design games for and then ppl wonder why they all fail.

Gaudrath

Haha, that's your argument? "Ur stoopid"? Come on, I expect more creativity from my trolls, you have to try harder!

kedz54

So doing what you like on a game you pay for = e-sports? GTFO.

lao

Gaudrath wrote: »

Haha, that's your argument? "Ur stoopid"? Come on, I expect more creativity from my trolls, you have to try harder!

ive explained what is wrong with the game. u didnt understand/didnt want to understand/lack the intellect to understand. u can pick one. i have no intentions talking to a brick wall and therefor im done talking to you.

Gaudrath

lao wrote: »

Gaudrath wrote: »

Haha, that's your argument? "Ur stoopid"? Come on, I expect more creativity from my trolls, you have to try harder!

ive explained what is wrong with the game. u didnt understand/didnt want to understand/lack the intellect to understand. u can pick one. i have no intentions talking to a brick wall and therefor im done talking to you.

Heh, you lack even the basic understanding of game production and design. You can't design a game for yourself and totally disregard everyone who isn't like you.

Your ideas would result in a totally unplayable mess.

And when faced with counter arguments you resort to ad hominem and then bolt. But it's ok, run away. You do sound like you can only dish it out.

TheGrandAlliance

Just to clarify for everone: This Thread is about "elite" guilds who disrespect non-elite guilds/players. This results in almost all of them so my engagement is broad. However... it is in theory possible for "elite" guilds to respect "the casuals" and thus not all "elite guilds" are evil.


...From observation on the EU side (which historically is always "edgeier") at least 95% of elite guilds violate what I stated in the OP.

I am not an elite. I can/do (like at launch) play like one... it isn't I am not skilled. However I refuse to call myself one or claim to be "elite" irregardless of my skill. I desire to have all players, playing together and not just "elite vs casual" situations.


Cyrodiil was not supposed to be an "elite" zone. It was (as described by developers) to be a zone that mixed PvP, PvE from a early Level (10). However with the power that Vet (esp VR10) ranks have it has forced this "balance" to be destroyed. "Casuals" cannot PvE or engage in "lesser" PvP for the resulting /flame they will get for "occuping space". This either forces them onto "dead" servers or to leave all together.


It is clear that this game isn't DAoC: The "elites" who are trying to continue to push the game development in this direction will never win. Eventually most of them will leave out of /ragequit actions. Where will this leave PvP for "the rest of us"?


Better. All we have to do is wait.

Gunsang

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Just to clarify for everone: This Thread is about "elite" guilds who disrespect non-elite guilds. This results in almost all of them so my engagement is broad. However it is in theory possible for "elite" guilds to respect "the casuals" and thus not all "elite guilds" are evil.


...However from observation on EU side (which historically is always "edgeier") at least 95% of elite guilds violate what I stated in the OP.

I am not an elite. I can/do (like at launch) play like one... it isn't I am not skilled. However I refuse to call myself one or claim to be "elite" irregardless of my skill. I desire to have all players, playing together and not just "elite vs casual" situations.


Cyrodil was not supposed to be an "elite" zone. It was (as described by developers) to be a zone that mixed PvP, PvE from a early lvl. However with the power that vet (esp VR10) ranks have it has forced this "balance" to be destroyed. "Casuals" cannot PvE or engage in "lesser" PvP for the resulting /flame they will get for "occuping space". This either forces them onto "dead" servers or to leave all together.


It is clear that this game isn't DAoC. Therefore the "elites" who are trying to continue to push the game development in this direction will never win. Eventually most of them will leave out of /ragequit actions. Where will this leave PvP for "the rest of us"?


Better. All we have to do is wait.

This. This so much. Thank you. I need to get a napkin to wipe the tears from my face. This was so beautiful.

Patience is a wonderful virtue to have. I can definitely wait them out knowing how worth the trouble it'll be.

TheGrandAlliance

@Gunsang‌

/bow

Kolur

Yes. Instead of actually fighting players spend the whole time screaming at each other. I have observed some "E-sports" myself in the form of GW2 and I don't understand why, if players are so skilled, need constant screaming of commands at each other.

"Skilled players" should be able to engage in what is generally referred to as "situation awareness"... that is know health of you, party, enemies, and not have to be "screamed" or even UI'ed to its existance. Forcing people to TS simply because apparently no one knows how to play the game, subverts the player's natural ability to play.


Furthermore the noise from TS ruins the in-game sound (which supposedly "elite guilds" turn off). Here is an example:

1. A player stealth/destealth (or otherwise makes an action that generates sound) but don't know where. If you had you sound turned up (and directional audio) you could simply hear the direction that they make the sound vs screaming over the TS, "OVER HERE OVER HERE", nonsense.
2. Hearing the firing of seige: If you cannot hear anything... then instead of simply hearing the thunder of a seige weapon begin (and the wall they are hitting) players instead have to scream over the TS again.
3. Sound feedback. This game has a good soundscape: You can hear player's weapons/skills both charge-up and execution sounds. If you have sound turned off or otherwise you cannot hear the noise a enemy makes before they do it. As a result... more screaming.

[/quote]

1st off, Stealth dedection pots & Magelight. No one can ever sneak into sound range If u use those....

2nd How exactly do u target call If u need to type each name?
If u dont target call. atleast 50% will be on different target.
Resulting In a group of veterans wiping you.
Which is propably why around 50% of your /zone or forum things Is
bashing on Veterans. simply cause you cannot win them.
If u had a target caller. Then you would just target call each 1.
And they die instantly. If I see Zebo, or any other Emperor.
I place my Backlash & call out his name. few sec later. I call out another name and it dies aswell.

3rd. No one screams on TS. That's what *** think It sounds like. What It actually Is, (depends on which night It is, Casual, Hilarious,Hardcore) In my guild.)
On casual, we just PvP with dedication while chatting.
On Hilarious we're just joking around on TS while ganking, practising our formations, & taking scrolls Into rivers to laugh for an hour of AD / DC jumping Into water only to die by our hand.
And then, the hardcore nights. those times It's just quiet. we stay stacked.
And I call out N,W,S,E depending on where we move. then I call out targets and they die.


No one ever screams that'd be *** and I'd mute his client If he'd continue doing so for long.
Noise from TS? There's no noise, If u got noise, then u either got children on your TS. or don't know how to set up sound settings.

Situation awerness.
Now I've got a great Situation awareness. But I could never know every single detail about each and every member In my raid.
If 1 of the 30-50 guys needs stamina. I wont know that, If he tells me tho.
I can boost his stamina regen. If 1 of my men gets hit by oil and I don't see It.
He dies, If he's on TS. he'd have known not to move there. And he'd be inside Purge range.

Kolur

So here's 1 thing I'd like to know. @TheGrandAlliance

Here's a text book example. Answer honestly from your perspective as Raidleader of non-TS3 non-Veteran rank.

Your group of 24 people. All picked from /zone. Only 2 of them are Veteran ranks.
1 Is V1 and other Is V10.

Gets ganked by 5 VR10's
1 Emperor. he's a DK Vampire spammer. (I know It's nerfed but lets pretend ^^)
1 Templar healer. with Barrier & Retreating Maneuver.
2 DK tanks. with SoM
1 Sorc blink escaper with Negate Magica Ultimate & Caltrops.

Your group was a bit split, and they came In from behind. First guy Is dead.
And 2nd Is being killed but no one knows cause he can't tell you.

Boom, action. How do you deal with it?
Cause considering how much you whine about Veterans being OP on forums & /z
I'd say you've dealt with simular situations before. And gotten wiped. easily & often

While a proper guild. Would have.

1# Not been spread.

2# 1st guy to get attacked would've said so. he'd propably die. But we'd have already turned around and engaged b4 2nd guy was even targeted.

3# we would place Backlash on Emperor. pop Negate on them. DK rushes in and
uses Talons & SoM If It's up. Then other Sorc pops Atronach AoE stun on them.

4# We dps the hell out of them during that. from range. Spamming Backlash,
Silver bolts, Fire dmg. and Sorc would be spamming Whirl wind to charge up another Negate quickly.

5# We backlash onto the higher lvl DK tank. and It's down quickly. Same with other DK.

6# We take out Healer.

7# Sorc will spam blink escape. But we spam Charges & Ranged CC.
Sometimes they get a way. Some times not. either way Organized guilds don't lose to this kind of things. While pugs/unorganized guilds do.

Made It in simple explained steps. It goes alot smoother In PvP itself
As in,

'Behind us. 5 guys'
Backlash on Zebo,
more deeps on Zebo guys.
Focus Yacal now.
Gj, Backlash on the other DK take him out.
Now the healer. he's knocked down.
Sorc to the south CC quickly.
Meh whatever, continue taking scroll to NE.

^The 7 steps as they go on TS3.^


Want to know what's really killing ESO?
It's not Elite guilds. It's ***. *** that cry on forums,
everytime they couldn't win someone In PvP
''Waah waah, I couldn't 1v1 a V10 when I was lvl 10... Nerf this, nerf that.
Make Veterans useless, Waah waaah''

Damnit kids, I wont call the Whambulance for you.
I'll get it for you personally and drive you over.

Kolur

Ahh, just wanted to say thanks for a great laugh.
After reading OP and being like
O.o'' *This guy doesn't know anything about MMO's does he?

Then reading comments I was like
xD *Now those guys know what their talking about'

Thx for fun laughs. And goodluck to Ya'll on the battlefield tonight fellow
''evil guilds that use communications!''

TheGrandAlliance

In the event you don't know Kolur... he is on my server. In fact I brought his guild to Dawnbreaker when I was also in his guild on the first week. He wanted to go another server btw. IF you end up in his guild... be advised: He will kick you and fast if he doesn't like you.


...in either case the scenario you presented is meaningless... IF I was commanding a force of non VR10s in theory I would loose 100% of the time. Any attack on them should be predicted by a skilled group of VR10s who just AoE spam the world out of everyone.

If I was holding a keep however... it may be possible to wipe them inside the inner walls depending on the keep strucutre. With some oiling from above and the abilty to spam CC that should be effective when combined with NPCs. Deploying seige NPCs would also help.


In terms of the TS arguement... the steps you listed should be "obvious": TS isn't required to make that 7 step process of yours happen if you have been playing together beforehand.



Furthermore... as being guilty yourself: The point of this thread is the hate that is placed on non-elite players. You yourself on our server complain about "the randoms and how they shouldn't even be on our server". Furthermore you kick people out of your guild like it is on style. If non-elite players are gonna be treated like this... why would they continue playing ESO?


And then when that happens... Who is gonna fund your /eliteromp KOlur?... Apparently you and your guild that is who... maybe the 1% of player population who is elite. Sub>F2P>Shut Down. Instead of "hating" you should make yourself useful and help everyone get better... not just the ones you deem "worthy".

johansson.davidb16_ESO

What an awesome thread!

Best checklist ever:

1. Running around and not telling anyone what they are doing

Check! - You don't want the whole maps come to your location. You have to fight in multiple locations, the random mindless zerg only gathers to one spot. By NOT telling the zone what you are doing, the mindless zerg might keep wiping on that keep while you get some real work done.

I also don't like to type in games anymore, I did enough of that in EverQuest. It's 2014, our internet connections can handle voice communication. I also don't talk to peasants. I have people to do that for me.

It takes dedication and effort to run a proper guild, from it's leadership as well as it's membership. We work for us, we don't work for you. Guild > Friends > Realm.


2. Commiting forces (servers have pop cap which makes this a problem) into suicide situations that causes the entire faction to wipe, such as taking random keeps that do not further a strategy

We will commit our forces to where we deem we will gain the most. First as a guild, second as a realm or "alliance". We have 15 years of experience of doing this on a competitive level, you do not. It is very likely we are right and you are wrong.


3. Treat everyone else on the server as "lesser humans" such as "randoms" (players not associated with elite guilds)

That is because you are "randoms". If you belonged to a guild which was easy to communicate with or work with, you would no longer be a "random", then you would be a part of a team. Many of us often work with the other guilds out there, because you can communicate, plan, divide and conquer. You also know that if X guild says "We will assault Keep", then they will actually assault the keep, and keep assaulting it until we are done. "Randoms" cannot be relied upon, so why work with them in the first place?


4. Pretend that they actually are skilled when only few of them actually are

It takes IMMENSE skill to do proper group fighting. While duelling or klicking buttons the fastest is not the most required skill, battlefield awareness and reaction time is. You can spot "bad" group players miles away. It is a skill and it is hard to acquire. We've had a few recruits over the years and despite very high ambition, a surprisingly large amount just cannot learn, even when trying their best.


5. Assume that VoiceChat/Teamspeak is the ONLY vaild form of in-game communication and thus anything else is trash

It is the ONLY valid form of in-game communication in a "combat" situation. If you have time to type you are doing it wrong. Your entire focus must be on what is happening on the screen, pushing your skills, moving and listening. Short command and acknowledgments on voice comm is the only thing you will have time or focus for.


6. Create "farming situations"... whereas intentionally losing in order to pull aggro to a keep... thus farming the inc players for AP

Not only that, but often we will intentionally lose a keep to let the enemies build morale, so more come out so we can have better fights. It is not healthy to dominate too much if there is noone on the other side that will keep coming back, IE, and "elite guild" that just simply do not give up.


7. Disrupting chats by insulting players in /zone or otherwise
To be perfectly honest, in nearly all situations I see this happen from any of my members, it is when they are trolling someone who is being an ass. While we are all very very old and most of the time act in a very decent manner, sometimes you just cannot stop yourself.


8. Hostile to thier own faction... treating them like enemies instead of the rival factions

If I could I would fight my own faction as well. More kills would be awesome. I could also discipline my own troops by PKing them if they didn't behave. I miss Lineage 2 =(.


9. Refusing to help new players (or even acknowledge their existance) learn PvP
The other day I invited a level 20 guy to our warband and he came on our Teamspeak. He was told to not push buttons, just keep up, listen and follow. The only thing he said after an hour following us was in a whisper to me "Holy F."

TheGrandAlliance

...now I got a new reason: Leave Server because leaders don't want to let you emp farm

TheGrandAlliance

..................