Where is the fun, skill or challenge in this?

bantad87

LadyChaos wrote: »

Players gotta start embracing their death and uttter humiliation a little more IMO to enjoy PvP. It's supposed to be hard and frustrating so that when you win a 1v1, a keep, a small skirmish, it is GLORIOUS!

I remember the details of the first time I won 1v1 out in the world trying to trek across the land to catch up to my party... I had lost every single other one ever and expected to die this time but I pulled up my skirts and let loose my lightning... the world was going black around the edges, I couldn't find him he was bobbing and weaving, and it was just a matter of my lightning form ticking one more time before he got me that I was the one who got to get to the big battle field.

Until you are the one who is the seasoned battle veteran, you should be the one who loses .. a lot... and then some more...
It makes getting there feel like an accomplishment you paid for in a lot of your own blood and tears, not just a time sink that you got for getting to level 10.

---

Magischzwei wrote: »

And yes, it is chaotic. Battle is chaos.

QFE

Except experience in ESO PvP is not required to dominate, nor is stepping into Cyrodiil. Just go PvE to VR10, grind some gear, and go dominate.

I certainly understand the desire of players to become stronger as they play, but good pvpers do not need the advantage of gear or higher stats to dominate. Domination in PvP should be the result of experience gained through combat, build diversity, and player skill + positioning.

There's a reason that performance enhancing substances are banned in professional sports; it cheapens the level of competition. Anyone who defends stat advantages in MMOs as a part of competitive PvP is cheapening the entire competition.

Is it an MMO, and is that a traditional aspect of MMOs? Yes; but that doesn't mean ESO has to follow that ideology.

bantad87

Cydone wrote: »

Thevenin wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

To the bolded, I haven't heard of this being a bug. Do you have a link to an official statement for this being a bug?? Cause if there isn't, then it's just conjecture and would make reaching VR10 essentially worthless. I highly doubt it's a bug and should they scale me down, after putting in this many hours grinding out the veteran levels, I'd probably quit or take a long break from the game. I'd imagine a lot of players would feel the same way.

Allow me to rephrase your thoughts :

Cydone wrote: »

My satisfaction comes from steamrolling people who don't have the lack of life I revealed by rushing through 300+ hours of content within 2 weeks. I loathe competition, and will leave if my superiority is removed or downgraded. Players who take interest to the content of this game instead of skipping everything, or who simply don't play 8h/day should get crushed by my mighty no-lifeness, no matter their skill, teamwork or numbers. My team of idiots and I wish to keep slapping everyone else out of this game despite our deep lack of teamwork and skill, exploiting the *** out of every single broken mechanism while laughing at their crushing defeats on vent. I do know that within six months, this game will be down to a few thousands of active PvP players, mainly teams of *** like mine which will avoid fighting and create drama as soon as they realize they don't have 10x the stats of everyone else anymore. But I don't really care, because by then we'll get bored of this game and hop on a new one to ruin it like a swarm of neckbearded flies.

Sorry if you think that time invested in a game shouldn't be rewarded. If you don't put in the same effort as I have, over time, leveling your toon, why the hell should you be rewarded the same as me? And as others have stated, people below veteran ranks CAN and DO take out veterans. Hell I did it before I reached veteran level. At least for ppl that were below VR6. Now, I wasn't winning EVERY fight, but I was winning.

MMO's will ALWAYS be an investment in time. If you can't invest time like others can you shouldn't be rewarded the same.....for essentially NOT doing anything. It's just like saying,"I know I just started this job and that other guy has been here for a while, makes more money than I do and has a better position within the company.....but I should be getting the same rewards as him even though I haven't yet put worth the same effort as he has."

Lol, what a ridiculous fallacy. If someone pays the same money, or more, than you, why should they be prevented from reasonable success?

This whole idea that MMOs are "supposed" to be time sinks or time investments is such a straw man argument. MMOs don't have to be time sinks, they could just be fun to play, easy to succeed in, and competitive in PvP. Its obvious that Game Devs make them time sinks to keep you paying and playing as long as possible, but it is possible to just create a fun game. Sadly, players don't seem to want these types of games, instead they want to be masochistic. Lol.

Sadly, its my opinion that players like you propagate this system because they're afraid of fair, balanced PvP, and they're afraid casuals will be better than them...like skill in a video game actually matters. Even when I played Aion hardcore after I ETS'd from the Army and went to college, I didn't need advantages to beat people. It makes me feel like players who defend stat/gear advantages need those advantages to be successful. Just my 2 cents.

Cydone

bantad87 wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

Thevenin wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

To the bolded, I haven't heard of this being a bug. Do you have a link to an official statement for this being a bug?? Cause if there isn't, then it's just conjecture and would make reaching VR10 essentially worthless. I highly doubt it's a bug and should they scale me down, after putting in this many hours grinding out the veteran levels, I'd probably quit or take a long break from the game. I'd imagine a lot of players would feel the same way.

Allow me to rephrase your thoughts :

Cydone wrote: »

My satisfaction comes from steamrolling people who don't have the lack of life I revealed by rushing through 300+ hours of content within 2 weeks. I loathe competition, and will leave if my superiority is removed or downgraded. Players who take interest to the content of this game instead of skipping everything, or who simply don't play 8h/day should get crushed by my mighty no-lifeness, no matter their skill, teamwork or numbers. My team of idiots and I wish to keep slapping everyone else out of this game despite our deep lack of teamwork and skill, exploiting the *** out of every single broken mechanism while laughing at their crushing defeats on vent. I do know that within six months, this game will be down to a few thousands of active PvP players, mainly teams of *** like mine which will avoid fighting and create drama as soon as they realize they don't have 10x the stats of everyone else anymore. But I don't really care, because by then we'll get bored of this game and hop on a new one to ruin it like a swarm of neckbearded flies.

Sorry if you think that time invested in a game shouldn't be rewarded. If you don't put in the same effort as I have, over time, leveling your toon, why the hell should you be rewarded the same as me? And as others have stated, people below veteran ranks CAN and DO take out veterans. Hell I did it before I reached veteran level. At least for ppl that were below VR6. Now, I wasn't winning EVERY fight, but I was winning.

MMO's will ALWAYS be an investment in time. If you can't invest time like others can you shouldn't be rewarded the same.....for essentially NOT doing anything. It's just like saying,"I know I just started this job and that other guy has been here for a while, makes more money than I do and has a better position within the company.....but I should be getting the same rewards as him even though I haven't yet put worth the same effort as he has."

Lol, what a ridiculous fallacy. If someone pays the same money, or more, than you, why should they be prevented from reasonable success?

This whole idea that MMOs are "supposed" to be time sinks or time investments is such a straw man argument. MMOs don't have to be time sinks, they could just be fun to play, easy to succeed in, and competitive in PvP. Its obvious that Game Devs make them time sinks to keep you paying and playing as long as possible, but it is possible to just create a fun game. Sadly, players don't seem to want these types of games, instead they want to be masochistic. Lol.

Sadly, its my opinion that players like you propagate this system because they're afraid of fair, balanced PvP, and they're afraid casuals will be better than them...like skill in a video game actually matters. Even when I played Aion hardcore after I ETS'd from the Army and went to college, I didn't need advantages to beat people. It makes me feel like players who defend stat/gear advantages need those advantages to be successful. Just my 2 cents.

I am NOT afraid of a fair and balanced fight, so long as the person I'm fighting against has put worth the effort to be at that balanced plateau. And you pay money to have ACCESS to the game, the same as me. Your money doesn't buy you the ability to equal to everyone else, without putting in the time. The games that do give this are widely considered to have the worst pvp, in regards to balancing. See SW:TOR. They have a bolster system and separate warzones for certain levels(10-29, 30-54 and 55), but to MOST of the ppl that play MMO's for pvp, it's widely considered to be the most unbalanced pvp they will experience.

I am all for people being equal in this MMO, if they are willing to put worth the effort to be there. I am NOT for ppl who want something for nothing.....ESPECIALLY when that something makes my time and effort completely meaningless.

Bunk

sSolutionSs wrote: »

I saw 2 vr2+ take on 30 non vets like it was a walk in the park.

yeah I saw 2 VRs take on 20 thousand non vets it was pretty nuts

bantad87

I am NOT afraid of a fair and balanced fight, so long as the person I'm fighting against has put worth the effort to be at that balanced plateau. And you pay money to have ACCESS to the game, the same as me. Your money doesn't buy you the ability to equal to everyone else, without putting in the time. The games that do give this are widely considered to have the worst pvp, in regards to balancing. See SW:TOR. They have a bolster system and separate warzones for certain levels(10-29, 30-54 and 55), but to MOST of the ppl that play MMO's for pvp, it's widely considered to be the most unbalanced pvp they will experience.

I am all for people being equal in this MMO, if they are willing to put worth the effort to be there. I am NOT for ppl who want something for nothing.....ESPECIALLY when that something makes my time and effort completely meaningless.

Let me rephrase that; I didn't mean that people should be handed everything on a platter, trust me, I'm aware of what paying for the license to the game entails.

My argument isn't that everyone should be given the best gear free, but rather that stat imbalanced games are not competitive in the slightest, and those who defend this system are, in my opinion, propagating the system because they feel like time investment should give them an advantage.

Truly competitive games deliberately avoid systems with stat advantages because they destroy any semblance of true, fair competition. Games like Halo, BF4, GW2. Yes, you can unlock new equipment that is built different ways that allow for build diversity, but theoretically, any gear is equal to other gear.

In games like this, time investment opens up more gear, which isn't better, but allows for a character to change specializations or play different roles.

When I played MMOs super hardcore (Aion, Swtor, GW2, Rift) I had a lot of friends who were amazing players, and most certainly did not need statistical gear advantages to win, yet they still defend this system. My main question is, where is your sense of competitive spirit? How do you feel a sense of accomplishment when your gear/stat advantage wins a fight for you? Competition is always based on a fair platform, and if there is no platform for fairness, why even compete? There's no sense of gratification.

When I fight in jiu jitau tournaments, I don't want to be a black belt against a white belt. There's no satisfaction in choking out someone with no chance. In any sport you've ever player in, have you ever felt satisfaction from beating someone 10 years younger than you? The answer is no, because they don't have a chance. The real question then, is why do we defend this system in gaming?

Cydone

bantad87 wrote: »

I am NOT afraid of a fair and balanced fight, so long as the person I'm fighting against has put worth the effort to be at that balanced plateau. And you pay money to have ACCESS to the game, the same as me. Your money doesn't buy you the ability to equal to everyone else, without putting in the time. The games that do give this are widely considered to have the worst pvp, in regards to balancing. See SW:TOR. They have a bolster system and separate warzones for certain levels(10-29, 30-54 and 55), but to MOST of the ppl that play MMO's for pvp, it's widely considered to be the most unbalanced pvp they will experience.

I am all for people being equal in this MMO, if they are willing to put worth the effort to be there. I am NOT for ppl who want something for nothing.....ESPECIALLY when that something makes my time and effort completely meaningless.

Let me rephrase that; I didn't mean that people should be handed everything on a platter, trust me, I'm aware of what paying for the license to the game entails.

My argument isn't that everyone should be given the best gear free, but rather that stat imbalanced games are not competitive in the slightest, and those who defend this system are, in my opinion, propagating the system because they feel like time investment should give them an advantage.

Truly competitive games deliberately avoid systems with stat advantages because they destroy any semblance of true, fair competition. Games like Halo, BF4, GW2. Yes, you can unlock new equipment that is built different ways that allow for build diversity, but theoretically, any gear is equal to other gear.

In games like this, time investment opens up more gear, which isn't better, but allows for a character to change specializations or play different roles.

When I played MMOs super hardcore (Aion, Swtor, GW2, Rift) I had a lot of friends who were amazing players, and most certainly did not need statistical gear advantages to win, yet they still defend this system. My main question is, where is your sense of competitive spirit? How do you feel a sense of accomplishment when your gear/stat advantage wins a fight for you? Competition is always based on a fair platform, and if there is no platform for fairness, why even compete? There's no sense of gratification.

When I fight in jiu jitau tournaments, I don't want to be a black belt against a white belt. There's no satisfaction in choking out someone with no chance. In any sport you've ever player in, have you ever felt satisfaction from beating someone 10 years younger than you? The answer is no, because they don't have a chance. The real question then, is why do we defend this system in gaming?

You're trying to make it seem as though this really matters, until you reach around VR8 or above. It' doesn't. You can kill veteran players as a none veteran player. I enjoy killing someone in any situation, but more so when I know we are evenly balanced, with BOTH parties having earned that balance by investing the time to get there. If you don't want to get killed by someone higher level than you, then don't enter the damn pvp zone until you think you're able to compete. OR, come on in, fight against us terrible meany veteran ranked players. You may actually get better, if you're tail doesn't turn white and runs to the forums because someone has invested 50+ more hours in the game than you, is higher level and killed you.

The way the system is now, if the soft players would stop spending so much time complaining about how their lvl 20 whatever can't beat a VR10, they might actually become better at their class, in pvp. Practice makes perfect. PvP isn't any different. Where any idiot can tell you perfection is unobtainable, it doesn't diminish the fact that when put in such a situation, it's possible for ppl at a current disadvantage to become used to the competition, become better at judging what encounters to enter and which ones not to. And become better pvpers once they get to that level/gear plateau.

And, you ARE asking for ppl to be given something for nothing. My time investment in my character has garnered me certain stat bonuses for my character. You are essentially asking that everyone be given this, in order to make for a more balanced PvP gameplay experience. Now, that may be balanced for the lower lvl player(it's not cause they can take out VR players, I know, I've done it!), but it renders my investment in time meaningless because they are given the same thing that I have spent mindless hours trying to get. And they are getting it for really nothing, other than purchasing a game license. How is that fair and balanced for me? Or other vets? It's not! It's giving something for nothing.

Morridune

Magischzwei wrote: »

It should not be possible for high level players to farm lowies.

Just remove Cryodil already and add some BGs with level instancing.

idk i farmed 4 vet's rank2-5 with a friend other day and filled up half my bag we're both below lvl 30 we died a few times they died more its about how you play lvl seems to only give slight advantages as far as i've seen. i'll also point out there was a lvl11 player who kick my ass several times later on so im not making out im some uber badass, just that if you take the time to learn the game and develop you're play style and teamwork current way pvp is run is far more rewarding than any other mmo i have played or seen

bantad87

You're trying to make it seem as though this really matters, until you reach around VR8 or above. It' doesn't. You can kill veteran players as a none veteran player. I enjoy killing someone in any situation, but more so when I know we are evenly balanced, with BOTH parties having earned that balance by investing the time to get there. If you don't want to get killed by someone higher level than you, then don't enter the damn pvp zone until you think you're able to compete. OR, come on in, fight against us terrible meany veteran ranked players. You may actually get better, if you're tail doesn't turn white and runs to the forums because someone has invested 50+ more hours in the game than you, is higher level and killed you.

The way the system is now, if the soft players would stop spending so much time complaining about how their lvl 20 whatever can't beat a VR10, they might actually become better at their class, in pvp. Practice makes perfect. PvP isn't any different. Where any idiot can tell you perfection is unobtainable, it doesn't diminish the fact that when put in such a situation, it's possible for ppl at a current disadvantage to become used to the competition, become better at judging what encounters to enter and which ones not to. And become better pvpers once they get to that level/gear plateau.

And, you ARE asking for ppl to be given something for nothing. My time investment in my character has garnered me certain stat bonuses for my character. You are essentially asking that everyone be given this, in order to make for a more balanced PvP gameplay experience. Now, that may be balanced for the lower lvl player(it's not cause they can take out VR players, I know, I've done it!), but it renders my investment in time meaningless because they are given the same thing that I have spent mindless hours trying to get. And they are getting it for really nothing, other than purchasing a game license. How is that fair and balanced for me? Or other vets? It's not! It's giving something for nothing.

Lol, I'm just going to agree to disagree because this is a fundamental difference in philosophy. You believe your time investment should give you an advantage. I don't feel like my time advantage should give me a statistical advantage, I believe it should open extra diversity options - like access to different skills and builds. That's an advantage in itself. You don't think access to more skills and a more diverse range of customizable skill/attribute points is enough of an advantage?

I'm not threatened by a level 10 because the skill line differences are immense, and I can customize my build. You shouldn't need any more advantage than that, and your PvP experience. The fact that you want more of an advantage only tells me that you either 1) don't want challenging, competitive PvP across the board and just want to dominate and/or 2) you're insecure in your PvP skills and are threatened by the idea of equalized PvP. I'm a VR, and I want more equalized PvP. Thats my stance.

scave

You know what I love about open-ended, large-scale, objective based mmorpg pvp like this?

If you want to be a name you really have to earn it. It cuts down the 'google-a-build' scrubs who expect instareward because they searched the ultimate skillcycle faceroll.

If you want to criticise the game level it at the flawed game mechanics that aid *** faceroll, and not prevent it.

lao

Magischzwei wrote: »

I see now that pvp here is only intended for those above 50 already.

proper pvp yes and it would be delusional to assume anything else.

Harming

bantad87 wrote: »

I am NOT afraid of a fair and balanced fight, so long as the person I'm fighting against has put worth the effort to be at that balanced plateau. And you pay money to have ACCESS to the game, the same as me. Your money doesn't buy you the ability to equal to everyone else, without putting in the time. The games that do give this are widely considered to have the worst pvp, in regards to balancing. See SW:TOR. They have a bolster system and separate warzones for certain levels(10-29, 30-54 and 55), but to MOST of the ppl that play MMO's for pvp, it's widely considered to be the most unbalanced pvp they will experience.

I am all for people being equal in this MMO, if they are willing to put worth the effort to be there. I am NOT for ppl who want something for nothing.....ESPECIALLY when that something makes my time and effort completely meaningless.

Let me rephrase that; I didn't mean that people should be handed everything on a platter, trust me, I'm aware of what paying for the license to the game entails.

My argument isn't that everyone should be given the best gear free, but rather that stat imbalanced games are not competitive in the slightest, and those who defend this system are, in my opinion, propagating the system because they feel like time investment should give them an advantage.

Truly competitive games deliberately avoid systems with stat advantages because they destroy any semblance of true, fair competition. Games like Halo, BF4, GW2. Yes, you can unlock new equipment that is built different ways that allow for build diversity, but theoretically, any gear is equal to other gear.

In games like this, time investment opens up more gear, which isn't better, but allows for a character to change specializations or play different roles.

When I played MMOs super hardcore (Aion, Swtor, GW2, Rift) I had a lot of friends who were amazing players, and most certainly did not need statistical gear advantages to win, yet they still defend this system. My main question is, where is your sense of competitive spirit? How do you feel a sense of accomplishment when your gear/stat advantage wins a fight for you? Competition is always based on a fair platform, and if there is no platform for fairness, why even compete? There's no sense of gratification.

When I fight in jiu jitau tournaments, I don't want to be a black belt against a white belt. There's no satisfaction in choking out someone with no chance. In any sport you've ever player in, have you ever felt satisfaction from beating someone 10 years younger than you? The answer is no, because they don't have a chance. The real question then, is why do we defend this system in gaming?

Seems to me like you enjoy an MOBA or FPS game over an MMO.
Lol and Dota are both free.
Mmos are about gearing. It's a pretty simple concept. Put in the time to have the most advantage.
As long as everyone maxes at the same spot, there's no reason that the lazy people can't get there as well.
~Harming

bantad87

MMO just stands for massively multiplayer online game, no one said it has to be about gearing...lol. Most are though, so that's what the genre is known for. I don't like MOBAs or FPS really. I just disagree that MMOs need to be about gearing and grinding, but I have no problem doing either.

I just like equalized PvP, my PvE can be as grindy as they want (I did play Aion for over 3 years). Its just a fundamental competitive ideology I hold, competition should be fair for all competitors; either through bracketing or bolstering.

I've played MMOs enough, and hardcore enough, to know most don't agree with that philosophy. I'm just throwing my 2 cents, lol.

apterous

anyone tried soul magic ultimate out yet, i can do 1566 damage with it. that's pretty much almost 1hit.

apterous

Harming wrote: »

Mmos are about gearing. It's a pretty simple concept. Put in the time to have the most advantage.
As long as everyone maxes at the same spot, there's no reason that the lazy people can't get there as well.
~Harming

***. certain types of mmos are about gearing. not all. i'm getting sick of this grinding and gearing type of ***. go back to wow. plz.