Population shrinking, PLEASE do something

Elsonso · October 21

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Mavloc wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Zenimax Online Studios Is now part of Xbox, so I want to give a big piece of advice to Microsoft/Xbox executives too, if you are willing to report to them our opinions:

I only follow Xbox (and Bethesda etc.) on socials and I buy only it since the OG launch - I don't get ANY Xbox game or service ad or notification of articles since the 360 era! Instead I get tons of Nintendo and PlayStation ads thrown at me from every angle: I got more ads for Concord than for CoD on Game pass, which I didn't see at all.
I never ever got an ESO ad, and I have thousands of hours in it from 2017.

Microsoft/Xbox/Zenimax marketing is really bad IMHO. Someone need to step up their game, seriously.

Edit: before this gets deleted by a mod, this comment IS on topic, extremely even. The game desperately needs more aimed marketing investments to reach more players.

I came back to the game years ago when they released Morrowind. They didn't need to market it to me. All they had to do was create something I was actually interested in.

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

Well, Ithelia and that story wasn’t just from ZOS. Devs made it a point to say that Bethesda had a hand in all of that. So if players think it’s lore breaking, they should look at Bethesda.

No, pretty sure it was all ZOS. Bethesda signed off on it and may have providedinput, though.

Rich literally went out of his way during the Global Reveal to thank Bethesda for help and input on Ithelia and the story and painted a picture that it was more of a joint effort this time.

I interpreted that as a means to quell the "ZOS is out of control with the lore" dissent. Maybe they provided input, but I never got the impression that ZOS was doing the bidding of Bethesda. I got the impression that ZOS wanted to do it, maybe got some resistance from Bethesda, and worked out an arrangement.

gamma71 · October 21

Aurielle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

After playing Throne and Liberty, it’s so easy to see what ESO’s Game Director would need to do in order to keep the game relevant, but it’s too late.

Zenimax had until the latest round of new MMOs to innovate and they sat on their hands.

Now we’ve got great story, great gameplay, great personalization, and huge open-world PvP the likes of vanilla Cyrodiil… all from a different game.

Did I mention it’s full Crossplay?

You forgot to mention free to play. I’ll be trying it out with the official launch, for sure.

The so called free to play games seem to always cost more in the end riddled with ads and gem type currency. I do agree with the other comments but I have never played a f2p game that didn't drive me nuts with ads pay to win and blocked content under a paywall.

Nerouyn · October 22

gamma71 wrote: »

I do agree with the other comments but I have never played a f2p game that didn't drive me nuts with ads pay to win and blocked content under a paywall.

They're rare, but exist.

Warframe is often touted as the not evil example of how to monetize a f2p game. I have looked at it. I'd say that claim holds water.

jle30303 · October 22

Mavloc wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

What Ithelia essentially does is allow them to create their own dragon breaks, so they can create new lore; new stories completely separate from TES games. A whole different timeline. And once they've squeezed all the money they can out of it, they'll just kill off Ithelia, Hermaeus Mora will come in like the men in black and wipe everyone's mind, and it will be as if it never happened.

Have you actually played to the REAL end of Gold Road? The extra 3 quests (and skill points) that are only available if you've completed BOTH Gold Road and Necrom AND both their prologue quests?

That, by the way, was... an interesting decision: to have some of the actual story, in this year's paid content, gaited behind other previous paid content - you have to either buy Necrom or have ESO+ subscription, West Weald is NOT fully self-contained: merely buying West Weald on an account that doesn't have Necrom or a subscription, gives you only 2/3 of the story.

(Which suggests to me, in fact, that West Weald may have been originally in the design stage as the Q4 DLC sequel to Necrom, and it was Executive Meddling that forced it to be shifted to the next year and fleshed out to become an entire Chapter in its own right.)

vsrs_au · October 22

Mavloc wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

What Ithelia essentially does is allow them to create their own dragon breaks, so they can create new lore; new stories completely separate from TES games. A whole different timeline. And once they've squeezed all the money they can out of it, they'll just kill off Ithelia, Hermaeus Mora will come in like the men in black and wipe everyone's mind, and it will be as if it never happened.

"dragon breaks" are the ESO equivalent of time travel and alternate universes in DC/Marvel: basically a license to introduce ridiculous plot changes and get away with it. Someone popular died? No problem! Just bring in another one from an alternate universe, or retrieve them from the past. Problem solved!

OtarTheMad · October 22

Elsonso wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Mavloc wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Zenimax Online Studios Is now part of Xbox, so I want to give a big piece of advice to Microsoft/Xbox executives too, if you are willing to report to them our opinions:

I only follow Xbox (and Bethesda etc.) on socials and I buy only it since the OG launch - I don't get ANY Xbox game or service ad or notification of articles since the 360 era! Instead I get tons of Nintendo and PlayStation ads thrown at me from every angle: I got more ads for Concord than for CoD on Game pass, which I didn't see at all.
I never ever got an ESO ad, and I have thousands of hours in it from 2017.

Microsoft/Xbox/Zenimax marketing is really bad IMHO. Someone need to step up their game, seriously.

Edit: before this gets deleted by a mod, this comment IS on topic, extremely even. The game desperately needs more aimed marketing investments to reach more players.

I came back to the game years ago when they released Morrowind. They didn't need to market it to me. All they had to do was create something I was actually interested in.

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

Well, Ithelia and that story wasn’t just from ZOS. Devs made it a point to say that Bethesda had a hand in all of that. So if players think it’s lore breaking, they should look at Bethesda.

No, pretty sure it was all ZOS. Bethesda signed off on it and may have providedinput, though.

Rich literally went out of his way during the Global Reveal to thank Bethesda for help and input on Ithelia and the story and painted a picture that it was more of a joint effort this time.

I interpreted that as a means to quell the "ZOS is out of control with the lore" dissent. Maybe they provided input, but I never got the impression that ZOS was doing the bidding of Bethesda. I got the impression that ZOS wanted to do it, maybe got some resistance from Bethesda, and worked out an arrangement.

I don't know because a lot of us players know that ZOS goes to Bethesda with pretty much everything and they need an okay to move forward so any sort of "ZOS is nuts" for the Ithelia move would be shut down quick by "Bethesda must have allowed it." So for Rich to take the time to mention Bethesda, which I am not sure they've done in a Global Reveal, tells me that Bethesda had a heavy say in what happened or at the very least it was a 50/50 share between both.

Elsonso · October 22

jle30303 wrote: »

Mavloc wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

What Ithelia essentially does is allow them to create their own dragon breaks, so they can create new lore; new stories completely separate from TES games. A whole different timeline. And once they've squeezed all the money they can out of it, they'll just kill off Ithelia, Hermaeus Mora will come in like the men in black and wipe everyone's mind, and it will be as if it never happened.

Have you actually played to the REAL end of Gold Road? The extra 3 quests (and skill points) that are only available if you've completed BOTH Gold Road and Necrom AND both their prologue quests?

I dunno about the player you asked, but I did the extended quests for the Necrom and Gold Road faithful. I remember the outcome, but I am fuzzy on the steps to get there. I can remember really good books* that I read when I was a teenager in enough detail that I can't re-read them. I did Gold Road 6 months ago.

(* Stories printed on paper and arranged in a convenient package. Does not require batteries or internet connection. )

jle30303 wrote: »

That, by the way, was... an interesting decision: to have some of the actual story, in this year's paid content, gaited behind other previous paid content - you have to either buy Necrom or have ESO+ subscription, West Weald is NOT fully self-contained: merely buying West Weald on an account that doesn't have Necrom or a subscription, gives you only 2/3 of the story.

(Which suggests to me, in fact, that West Weald may have been originally in the design stage as the Q4 DLC sequel to Necrom, and it was Executive Meddling that forced it to be shifted to the next year and fleshed out to become an entire Chapter in its own right.)

The Ithelia story does not feel like it is tied to West Weald. It feels like there was another story there, possibly including the Bosmer, and Ithelia was added in over the top. The Bosmer king was more of a distracting side show. Or... maybe it was Ithelia that was the distracting side show.

Meh. Maybe it was always intended to be concluded in the Chapter and it is just the writing that makes it feel like it was added after the fact. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ravensilver · October 22

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.

Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.

Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.

Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.

I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.

So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...

Aurielle · October 22

Nerouyn wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

I do agree with the other comments but I have never played a f2p game that didn't drive me nuts with ads pay to win and blocked content under a paywall.

They're rare, but exist.

Warframe is often touted as the not evil example of how to monetize a f2p game. I have looked at it. I'd say that claim holds water.

I used to play Warframe a lot (not really sure why I stopped, TBH — I think it’s because I can only handle playing one MMO at a time) and can confirm that it is absolutely one of the best, least predatory F2P games out there. I still ended up spending a bunch of money on the game because FashionFrame is the real endgame, and I was too lazy to farm platinum the hard way. You can 100% play that game entirely F2P though. No blocked gameplay content whatsoever. There are ways to boost your progress via the store, of course, but doing so completely defeats the whole purpose of that game’s grind. The grind IS the purpose. If you took your card out to bypass it, all you would be left with to do in game is stand around in crowded population hubs to show off your “drip” (and you can do that anyway). There’s no real advantage in that game to maxing out your builds as fast as possible. The game “has” PVP in the sense that it’s an option, but barely anyone does it. People who say ESO’s PVP population is small have never seen Warframe’s…

SkaiFaith · October 22

While I appreciate people having already shared here the link to the "Massive lag" thread, I think it's worth reporting here this other thread too, even if it's created by Zos themselves:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/660783/feedback-on-console-environmental-sustainability-features/p1
Many valid opinions here too that reflect the sentiment of players, both leaving or continuing to play but in frustration.

Elsonso · October 22

Ravensilver wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.

Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.

Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.

Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.

I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.

So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...

I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.

The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.

They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.

alternatelder · October 22

jle30303 wrote: »

Mavloc wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

What Ithelia essentially does is allow them to create their own dragon breaks, so they can create new lore; new stories completely separate from TES games. A whole different timeline. And once they've squeezed all the money they can out of it, they'll just kill off Ithelia, Hermaeus Mora will come in like the men in black and wipe everyone's mind, and it will be as if it never happened.

Have you actually played to the REAL end of Gold Road? The extra 3 quests (and skill points) that are only available if you've completed BOTH Gold Road and Necrom AND both their prologue quests?

That, by the way, was... an interesting decision: to have some of the actual story, in this year's paid content, gaited behind other previous paid content - you have to either buy Necrom or have ESO+ subscription, West Weald is NOT fully self-contained: merely buying West Weald on an account that doesn't have Necrom or a subscription, gives you only 2/3 of the story.

(Which suggests to me, in fact, that West Weald may have been originally in the design stage as the Q4 DLC sequel to Necrom, and it was Executive Meddling that forced it to be shifted to the next year and fleshed out to become an entire Chapter in its own right.)

It's not a new concept to continue the story into another chapter. Morrowind to Summerset are connected. I actually prefer a larger storyline stretched out from year to year.

Four_Fingers · October 22

I really don't know how people can judge what is lore or not, given the Daedric Prince's ability to meddle in it and make things forgotten.

Elsonso · October 22

Four_Fingers wrote: »

I really don't know how people can judge what is lore or not, given the Daedric Prince's ability to meddle in it and make things forgotten.

Seems to me that making the Daedric Princes all powerful gods elevates them too high.

Cooperharley · October 22

alternatelder wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

Mavloc wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.

What Ithelia essentially does is allow them to create their own dragon breaks, so they can create new lore; new stories completely separate from TES games. A whole different timeline. And once they've squeezed all the money they can out of it, they'll just kill off Ithelia, Hermaeus Mora will come in like the men in black and wipe everyone's mind, and it will be as if it never happened.

Have you actually played to the REAL end of Gold Road? The extra 3 quests (and skill points) that are only available if you've completed BOTH Gold Road and Necrom AND both their prologue quests?

That, by the way, was... an interesting decision: to have some of the actual story, in this year's paid content, gaited behind other previous paid content - you have to either buy Necrom or have ESO+ subscription, West Weald is NOT fully self-contained: merely buying West Weald on an account that doesn't have Necrom or a subscription, gives you only 2/3 of the story.

(Which suggests to me, in fact, that West Weald may have been originally in the design stage as the Q4 DLC sequel to Necrom, and it was Executive Meddling that forced it to be shifted to the next year and fleshed out to become an entire Chapter in its own right.)

It's not a new concept to continue the story into another chapter. Morrowind to Summerset are connected. I actually prefer a larger storyline stretched out from year to year.

Well that story arc was good - we had solid dialogue options, the story was interesting and not TOO predictable AND we didn't seem like an absolute dunce when talking to other NPCs. The stories nowadays are 100% predictable, we look and sound extremely dumb, and it's just gotten unimaginative and rushed unfortunately. The story telling needs a big facelift and ZOS needs to not play it so safe every year. Outside of a new locale and a system we may or may not like, nothing changes too much.

ElderOfTamriel · October 22

Weird that inflation still is going on even further then. Theoretically: Less people equals less items available, equals higher price.

Elsonso · October 22

ElderOfTamriel wrote: »

Weird that inflation still is going on even further then. Theoretically: Less people equals less items available, equals higher price.

Fewer people looking for items, too. If prices are rising, there is probably more demand than supply.

Mavloc · October 22

Well, support hasn't gotten back to me on buying a Tel Galen home, so enjoy your game guys. I'm out.

AngryPenguin · October 22

Elsonso wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.

Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.

Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.

Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.

I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.

So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...

I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.

The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.

They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.

Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)

Jaraal · October 22

Ravensilver wrote: »

The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation).

It wasn't removed, just unstickied and allowed to fall off the front page.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512076/february-2020-furnishing-limit-status-update/p1

Elsonso · October 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.

Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.

Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.

Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.

I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.

So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...

I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.

The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.

They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.

Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)

Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.

My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.

Nerouyn · October 22

Mavloc wrote: »

Well, support hasn't gotten back to me on buying a Tel Galen home, so enjoy your game guys. I'm out.

I don't know if you saw my reply to your earlier post but officially support no longer allow purchase of homes outside of sale periods.

The fact that I'll probably have to wait another year or two to get the only house I really want is a big negative for me in the should I jump back into ESO now or not question.

Nerouyn · October 22

Aurielle wrote: »

I used to play Warframe a lot (not really sure why I stopped, TBH — I think it’s because I can only handle playing one MMO at a time) and can confirm that it is absolutely one of the best, least predatory F2P games out there.

I only started playing it quite recently (for me) a few years back. Stopped when I hit the long mission string you get permanently locked in until you complete it. And unfortunately you have to complete it or can't play the game's real end-game content.

Boring arse (for me) content I would avoid given the choice. Which I think was the developer's intent. To force players to love game content most wouldn't and don't choose to play.

Aurielle wrote: »

There are ways to boost your progress via the store, of course, but doing so completely defeats the whole purpose of that game’s grind. The grind IS the purpose.

I think I understand what you're saying here but I'd put it differently.

Warframe's gameplay (mostly) is intrinsically rewarding, i.e. fun, so the work-for-it-factor isn't actually a grind.

It's a proper game.

Except for that one mission string, for my tastes.

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 22

Today my eso plus ran out, since there is nothing to play anymore for me, on PS EU nothing interesting since i have archived everything i could in pvp and pve and the people i played with are on throne and liberty or stopped completely, i dont care about the craft bag limitations no more.

But the fact you have to pay with real money for inventory space is another story anyway

Nerouyn · October 22

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

But the fact you have to pay with real money for inventory space is another story anyway

I've played about half of my time subscribed and half not. Super poor.

Though annoying it is possible to play without the double bank space and the infinite crafting bag, but requires one of the auto banker addons, and preferably also the banker assistant.

During the year there are typically multiple free ESO plus promotional events. Log in during one to load all of your stashed crafting materials into the crafting bag.

reazea · October 23

Elsonso wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.

Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.

Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.

Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.

I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.

So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...

I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.

The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.

They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.

Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)

Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.

My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.

Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.

Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?

alternatelder · October 23

reazea wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.

Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.

Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.

Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.

I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.

So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...

I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.

The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.

They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.

Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)

Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.

My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.

Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.

Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?

No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.

Rkindaleft · October 23

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Today my eso plus ran out, since there is nothing to play anymore for me, on PS EU nothing interesting since i have archived everything i could in pvp and pve and the people i played with are on throne and liberty or stopped completely, i dont care about the craft bag limitations no more.

But the fact you have to pay with real money for inventory space is another story anyway

I was subbed since like 2017 all the way to Gold Road release when I finally ended it because I realised I was paying a service for a game that wasn't working correctly.

For the past few months where I haven't had access to a craft bag I don't even open most of my mail anymore because I don't want to have to deal with the inventory management headache which is causing me to log in even less, etc.

I'm in 2 progs on the same days, and most of the group members don't even log in anymore outside of those times, its log in, have a laggy instance (with DCs!) for 2 hours, log off until the next raid day, almost nobody is happy and so many people are already fed up entirely, I'd say for most teams at the moment it's roster prog galore, people are dropping like flies and there's hardly anyone left to replace them.

Nerouyn · October 23

reazea wrote: »

Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.

Since players can also engage in combat from day 1, that would rule out combat as an end-game activity.

Dungeons are also easily accessible on a first day of play. So that rules that out too.

PvP? Same again.

End-game is whatever floats players' boats once they've reached max level and completed all of the story content.

Housing and fashion? Sure. Obviously.

Pelanora · October 23

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes, but that is mainly being driven by Live Service greed, I think. Someone wants piles of cash to fill their pools with and live services are the golden path. MMOs are on that path, so naturally, they get investment. Not all of them succeed, The live service market demands constant player engagement to fuel the pool filling machines. Investors need engagement to be high so that when their pool is filled, they can start filling another one.

More seriously, I do think that the success of a few MMOs, maybe ESO among them, has prompted a "me too" attitude. That can lead to studios tossing their hat in the ring, or in the case of a few Korean games, the Western market ring. When enough of them fail, the studios that are just in it for the quick cash will back off and do something else.

World of Warcraft was an unparalleled and undisputed colossal success whose performance swiftly eclipsed their quite modest targets for the game.

Elder Scrolls Online's degree of success is unknown. As a privately owned company they have never been required to publish subscription numbers. Most MMOs are operated by publicly owned (i.e. on the stock market) companies and are legally required to regularly publicly report financial details like this.

I think ESO had been surviving on Skyrim money. For the sake of protecting the valuable Elder Scrolls intellectual property, Bethesda would have good motivation to keep the game alive and well supported, where other developers and MMOs would have been sold off or closed down.

Now that ESO is owned by the publicly owned Microsoft we may see subscription numbers soon. On the other hand, Microsoft would likely be even more keen to protect the Elder Scrolls IP for the sake of potential future earnings. I doubt they'd shut it down.

Elsonso wrote: »

I think they know what is wrong, and are incrementally trying different ideas to see what sticks. The ESO player population is not uniform. Not everyone wants PVP, dungeons, trials, veteran content, housing, card games, arenas, and stories, but some players want one or more of those things and may be completely disinterested in all the rest. I won't get into which of those things are more popular, simply because we don't know.

The question I have is what they are doing to minimize annoying players into leaving. They seem to do that. A lot.

Experimentation is a possibility and could be in the mix but I see a clear direction in most of their incremental baby steps which makes me think that in most cases they do know what they should have done and are moving in that direction.

But you're right. Players don't all necessarily see the same or would appreciate either that direction or what the game is on its way to that.

Personally I think they spectacularly dropped the ball on mods.

Zenimax's attempt to translate the immense value added by mods in the single player game Elder Scrolls games was to give players a barely functional UI and irritations like dreadful inventory management, and then leave it to modders to fix them.

I'm not fooled by that and I doubt anyone else is either.

What they should have done is create an online equivalent of eg. Skyrim with decently priced rentable servers and allow the full breadth of mods, with the obvious limitation of prohibiting IP infringement, so no turning the game into a Lord of The Rings fest.

Personally I wouldn't change much. Love the world and its lore. I'd play on a server which simply got rid of classes, ultimates (I don't like cooldown abilities and these are indirectly effectively that), and gave us less irritating inventory management and maybe a little more housing freedom. I'd also nix "weaving" and probably many dungeon mechanics.

But everyone with any niggling thing they don't like about the game could still enjoy and most importantly from the business's perspective pay for it, without the developers needing to settle on a single design which maximises the numbers of players pleased and minimises the number displeased.

Having been through a "merger of equals" between two Fortune 250's which became a textbook corporate raid, I've become sensitive to the side-channel signals when these things happen. At the recent anniversary event, right after the merger, it felt like Rich Lambert was making a bigger deal about how much money the game has made than would have made sense within the context of speaking to an audience of fans. It seemed to me that he was justifying their existence publicly for the sake of Bethesda's/ZOS's new Microsoft overlords. In my total "WAG" estimation, I think ESO has about 40K daily players across all platforms. WoW has literally 10 times that number. Heck, WoW Classic has twice that number alone. Now, ESO may be making lots of money, but "lots of money" isn't the goal. Companies like Microsoft are pushed by their investors to make ALL THE MONEY, and with player counts now at 2018 levels, I'm starting to worry.

I agree with all of this very much, bang on I think.........apart from the Microsoft money part. Obvs noone sustains a loss maker, but Microsoft got into buying games because they said they see gaming companies driving innovation. That's what they're chasing from the companies they buy.

I thought given this it was very interesting we were surveyed on whether we thought west weald was innovative. On the face of it a strange question after all.