What the Hell is all the different trading guilds? It should be all one spot to trade everything lik

TaSheen

gamma71 wrote: »

Running around for hours to different traders just to find something is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

*laughing* Yeah, very true. I have unlimited time, but I do NOT choose to chase crap around the traders on the map. If I can't find it at a reasonable (for me) price in Vivec, I do without.

kargen27

gamma71 wrote: »

Running around for hours to different traders just to find something is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

Here is the funny thing about that.
Running around for hours taking different keeps just to get AP is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.
Same thing with doing trials, undaunted dailies, crafting, decorating homes and other activities could also be said. People enjoy the game in different ways.
So we could just cut to the chase and say running around for hours playing ESO is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

Ph1p

LaintalAy wrote: »

'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'
Your real-world examples are bound by real-world legislation.

IRL, your accountant is a registered, incorporated entity (body corporate)for legislative purposes.
IRL, if your tennis club is collecting fees, paying bills and tax, it will be structured according to (body corporate) legislation.
IRL, you will have signed a binding contract with Netflix and the conditions are legally enforceable.

'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'
Continued membership of a guild, based on the payment of fees, is extortion by guild owners.
They use the threat of expulsion to obtain compliance.

I refused to contribute to a group project, now the team is threatening to drop my name from the report. Extortion!
I never volunteer to be the designated driver, now my friends are threatening to exclude me from bar nights. Extortion!
I don't follow the builds set by the raid leader of my progression group, now he's threatening to kick me from it. Extortion!

There, no connection to real-world legislation whatsoever. Notice what sets these examples and the guild membership one apart from actual extortion? The threat only comes after YOU break the rules first. Your action, your consequences.

Rowjoh

Until a well known online shopping outlet named after a big South American river takes over the trading world, our trading system better reflects real life, which I feel is always better for immersion.

Idelise

I think I'd prefer an easy way to shop from one source (especially since some sources will be locked for people unless they have ESO+ and the latest chapter) than immersion. And I RP.

The current system is just a massive waste of time.

mook-eb16_ESO

Did someone mention ttc in this thread, I couldn't be bothered to spend ages reading it. I never had to run around for hours to find something open the the Tamriel Trade Centre webpage, find what you want go ther buy it. What's so hard? If the item is somewhere you don't have access (dlc) then ask someone in your guild if they will buy it and send it to you. Very easy to find a guild that will help lots of nice players in the game, a lot are no pressure and very helpful

Horny_Poney

Console players disagree

xilfxlegion

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Just a few observations.

First, a couple of broad concepts:

- On "hidden information" a lack of price transparency / discoverability in a market can lead to people not paying market price because they do not know what market price *is*.

(snip)

Very good summary. That would include selling at the "normal" price.

The information is not technically hidden, but is very hard to find.

I doubt many people here studied how economics worked in retail (or wholesale for that matter) prior to the Internet. Information is effectively hidden if it is not possible to find it quickly. That is how the current system works.

A player must get consumed with checking almost all guild vendors for details. TTC on the PC helps a bit, but only somewhat.

That is "hidden information" because most players want to play the game (quests, dungeons, other game activities) rather than running from guild trader to guild trader. Yes, that is "playing" but not a fun part for almost all players.

at any time in any zone a player can ask the average price of anything in chat - there is nothing hidden about it.
i have been in retail and wholesale since 1989. if you want the best price on anything - you call around. but businesses have the option to advertise in real life, unlike this game. either way, nothing is hidden.

and again-- ANYTHING you want in this game is absolutely free if you just go get it -- if you do not want to go get it then you pay someone else to go get it.

mook-eb16_ESO

Horny_Poney wrote: »

Console players disagree

Yes unfortunately. Which makes guilds even more important on that platform. However, Since Tamriel has expanded so much it is probably something that Zos needs to address at some point. I'm sure it could be economically viable for Zos to integrate a service into ES0+ or one of payment in crowns that facilities searching traders from a central point/npc.

BlueRaven

Once again I feel the need to point out it is probably impossible to implement a central ah system in eso. And this constant discussion about it is basically pointless.

Wow and (I think) FF do not have a central ah open to everyone. They have a central ah open to the people of that particular server or linked servers. If you are not part of that server (group) you can’t buy nor even see the items posted there.

ESO has one mega server that is sharded. A central ah in ESO would have to place the same limitations of usage as cyrodiil currently does on that area.
That means just as cyrodiil is broken up into different servers, so would a central ah. Just as cyrodiil has wait times for being “full” so would ah server stores. And with people playing the (now super easy) flip game on those servers, the wait times will be particularly long.

I get it, people are opposed to joining guilds. But really most guilds leave you alone, and you can turn off guild chat so you can do your own thing. It’s not that bad.

Pevey

"It's not that bad" is not really a sentiment that's compatible with truly enjoyable game design.

I think having a decentralized trading structure where you have to go to different cities has pros and cons versus AH. I'm pretty indifferent on that front. But I loathe that trading in ESO is tied to guilds. People have turned that into a raffle-infested begging-for-donations (on PC) or demanding-dues (on console) mess that many people are just sick of.

Northwold

BlueRaven wrote: »

I get it, people are opposed to joining guilds. But really most guilds leave you alone, and you can turn off guild chat so you can do your own thing. It’s not that bad.

I don't think it is just people being opposed to guilds. Some people want a central search. Some people are opposed to guilds. They are not necessarily the same people and they are not the same issue.

In my case, while I see problems with the way guild traders have been set up from the perspective of price transparency and market distortions (which I've written about at length to try to address commonly raised points in these discussions -- eg the suggestion that the guild trader system combats inflation better, which I suspect is untenable), I do see advantages to the current system. Eg the charm of stumbling across that unexpected bargain off the beaten track, etc.

So my personal objection is to the guild membership selling gate (note on inflation that the very fact of having a selling, but not a buying, gate most likely actively fuels inflation by causing players to create in game money to buy things rather than circulating money that was already there by selling things). But my objection is NOT because I'm "scared" of guilds, as some contributors here seem to imagine. Simply because I do not want to be dealing with a player administered system.

I play casually. If I want to sell something, I want to be able to log in and sell something. Not to be able to log in, search for a guild, apply to join, wait a few days, sell something and then continuously faff around as guilds kick people, change their rules, etc. I'm not interested in that and simply will not engage with that. I have other priorities for my leisure time.

For people like me, who refuse to engage with a played-administered selling gate, the game's trading system can either ignore them, or accommodate them.

That could be by an auction house, or by other means that allow for players to trade without guild membership without fundamentally changing the character of the guild trader system. I've talked in the past about "pauper" traders -- traders with NPCs spread about the world just like the guild traders, administered by the game, not players, with heavy restrictions eg of higher fees and fewer selling slots, that would allow non-guild players to participate in the game's economy but not trigger a flight to the exit for those players who do want to engage with guilds.

There are similar halfway house compromises conceivable for the searching for items problem. Eg regional searches, searches that throw up a randomised slice of results rather than showing the entirety of available goods everywhere.

Ultimately, as always, it boils down to what ZOS wants the trading system to be *for*. Is it a functional, backend system that plugs all players into the player economy? Is it a guild recruitment device? Is it a system designed primarily for players who want to make trading their full-time gameplay, and if so, how much functionality is ZOS prepared to sacrifice from trading compared to other MMOs to that end?

It's a judgment call on the purpose of trading as a system, and views on that, and where on the spectrum the trading system should properly be positioned, are going to vary.

BlueRaven

Pevey wrote: »

"It's not that bad" is not really a sentiment that's compatible with truly enjoyable game design.

I think having a decentralized trading structure where you have to go to different cities has pros and cons versus AH. I'm pretty indifferent on that front. But I loathe that trading in ESO is tied to guilds. People have turned that into a raffle-infested begging-for-donations (on PC) or demanding-dues (on console) mess that many people are just sick of.

Join a no dues trade guild, and turn guild chat off. Simple.

But the guilds I am in are really nice. My 55 and older guild is super fun and never has auctions or dues. They run house tours and do organized wb runs.

Pevey

BlueRaven wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

"It's not that bad" is not really a sentiment that's compatible with truly enjoyable game design.

I think having a decentralized trading structure where you have to go to different cities has pros and cons versus AH. I'm pretty indifferent on that front. But I loathe that trading in ESO is tied to guilds. People have turned that into a raffle-infested begging-for-donations (on PC) or demanding-dues (on console) mess that many people are just sick of.

Join a no dues trade guild, and turn guild chat off. Simple.

But the guilds I am in are really nice. My 55 and older guild is super fun and never has auctions or dues. They run house tours and do organized wb runs.

I'm in a no dues PvE guild that never sends mail or MOTD updates and has a pretty good location. It's funded mostly with gold the officers get from doing carries. But this is pretty rare and took a while to find. The guild trader system is still a really terrible experience for many players. And it's completely unnecessary. Guilds should have nothing to do with trading.

Twohothardware

The guild trader system we have now is nothing more than a large gold sink and it’s the same handful of guilds that control the prime trader locations.

A central auction house would work much better for the general player base. It would eliminate the running around searching dozens of traders to locate an item or compare prices, everything would be priced more competitively, your items would sell much faster, and no more weekly guild fees.

Pevey

Very few people frequent these forums, but this video and the comments on it give some insight that many people do not like how trading is set up in ESO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec4cJGe-mG0

They either manage to get along without it, or they stop playing altogether. Either is sad, because "trading" (not to other players, but as an RP concept) is an important part of Elder Scrolls. Skyrim had a whole speech skill line with much of it focused on interactions with merchants.

There is lots of room for an expansion that focuses on trade. Whatever your views on the current market correction going on in ESO, it's clear that there is lots of interest in it. It's possible to make improvements to trade in ESO without throwing out the whole current system or moving to an auction house.

The East Empire Company exists in the time of ESO, and while they may be somewhat dormant because they don't have a stable Emperor to protect their monopolies, that opens a space for an interesting story and possibly even a skill line in ESO (maybe passives only like Dark Brotherhood) related to trading, both to vendors and to other players. Maybe a guild quest line that makes you a chartered member of the Company, but first you have to help them get permission to set up shop in various areas (since they don't currently have the blanket protection of the Emperor's authority).

One possible scenario would be a system you unlock where as you progress the questline you earn the ability to sell items in the East Empire market/warehouse in each area, starting with the smaller outlying areas first, building up to the major cities. The caveat is the your charter only gives you a limited number of sell slots in each location, maybe 1 in the smallest locations and up to 3-5 in the largest locations. Maybe the taxes/fees on items sold this way are higher. Or start higher, at 10%, but could be reduced to as low as 7% with 3 skill points into a passive in the skill line, matching the guild trader take.

In my view, anything like this would be an interesting alternative route to player-run guilds, but still decentralized and avoids an auction house. But because players would unlock the ability to list in different cities, but with relatively small limits on each location, there would be more thought as to what to list where. I think over time it might become common to list certain types of items in different locations, making it a little bit easier to shop around to find things on console, but still not one central location. The EE marketplace in each location could even have an armorer, provisioner, etc. to represent different categories. So you're not going from guild trader to guild trader, but from category to category.

A new trading expansion could also exists alongside the guild trader system, but would make it optional. People should join guilds because they want to, not because they have to in order to trade with other players.

TaSheen

I have lots of gold.... crafting writs over 7 years on all my girls (12-18) the first year, then just on mains. I don't have a lot to spend it on. I don't need the trading system thankfully. And the only guild I ever use is Beam Me Up.

Nharimlur_Finor

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I do not understand your logic. Someone created a guild and set the rules for membership. Their guild - their rules. If someone does not like to pay the membership fee, they can join another guild or start their own.
Same for guilds that say they are for RP only or for vampires/WW only.

Note, that I do not defend the practice. I would not join a guild with a fee.

I accept most of that.
I don't agree that I should have to pay in-game funds or engage in slavery to be a guild member.

ESO_player123

LaintalAy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I do not understand your logic. Someone created a guild and set the rules for membership. Their guild - their rules. If someone does not like to pay the membership fee, they can join another guild or start their own.
Same for guilds that say they are for RP only or for vampires/WW only.

Note, that I do not defend the practice. I would not join a guild with a fee.

I accept most of that.
I don't agree that I should have to pay in-game funds or engage in slavery to be a guild member.

But you should not have to do it. Just join a guild that does not require a fee.

spartaxoxo

LaintalAy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I do not understand your logic. Someone created a guild and set the rules for membership. Their guild - their rules. If someone does not like to pay the membership fee, they can join another guild or start their own.
Same for guilds that say they are for RP only or for vampires/WW only.

Note, that I do not defend the practice. I would not join a guild with a fee.

I accept most of that.
I don't agree that I should have to pay in-game funds or engage in slavery to be a guild member.

Slavery? All guilds are voluntary.

And just join one without dues then

Nharimlur_Finor

Ph1p wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'
Your real-world examples are bound by real-world legislation.

IRL, your accountant is a registered, incorporated entity (body corporate)for legislative purposes.
IRL, if your tennis club is collecting fees, paying bills and tax, it will be structured according to (body corporate) legislation.
IRL, you will have signed a binding contract with Netflix and the conditions are legally enforceable.

'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'
Continued membership of a guild, based on the payment of fees, is extortion by guild owners.
They use the threat of expulsion to obtain compliance.

I refused to contribute to a group project, now the team is threatening to drop my name from the report. Extortion!
I never volunteer to be the designated driver, now my friends are threatening to exclude me from bar nights. Extortion!
I don't follow the builds set by the raid leader of my progression group, now he's threatening to kick me from it. Extortion!

There, no connection to real-world legislation whatsoever. Notice what sets these examples and the guild membership one apart from actual extortion? The threat only comes after YOU break the rules first. Your action, your consequences.

Your first two examples ARE covered by law. Your employment contract and PCA laws.
Your third example is bullying, not extortion. Some jurisdictions now have laws for that too.
If you threaten people after they break the rules, sure that isn't extortion. It's illogical though.

The point remains that acceptance into a guild should not be based on the payment of a fee.
Guilds are supposed to be about players with similar goals grouping together to achieve them.

Trading guilds were supposed to be about achieving the goal of people providing trade as a specific function.

FlopsyPrince

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

[snip]

Do the right thing and give us a centralized place, like maybe an Auction House to straighten things out.

[edited for baiting]

an auction house will make prices go even more out of control than before

its like nobody here has played any game with a central auction house and seen the flippers and monopolies in full force

those markets absolutely suck to try to buy from

This is asserted over and over with NO EVIDENCE! A central market has pros and cons, but at least you can find things and know what they can sell for. But we don't even have that information in another format with the guild trader system.

Imagine buying your groceries and clothes using the guild trader model in real life. It would be much more costly! Why would someone think that prices are kept down in a game in the same type of model?

FlopsyPrince

kargen27 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

Running around for hours to different traders just to find something is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

Here is the funny thing about that.
Running around for hours taking different keeps just to get AP is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.
Same thing with doing trials, undaunted dailies, crafting, decorating homes and other activities could also be said. People enjoy the game in different ways.
So we could just cut to the chase and say running around for hours playing ESO is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

False argument. You are playing the game in those other examples. While running around to traders is playing the game, no MMO starts on running around to traders while MMOs do start on the other things you note!

Pevey

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I do not understand your logic. Someone created a guild and set the rules for membership. Their guild - their rules. If someone does not like to pay the membership fee, they can join another guild or start their own.
Same for guilds that say they are for RP only or for vampires/WW only.

Note, that I do not defend the practice. I would not join a guild with a fee.

I accept most of that.
I don't agree that I should have to pay in-game funds or engage in slavery to be a guild member.

Slavery? All guilds are voluntary.

And just join one without dues then

Even trade guilds with no dues will spam you with notifications about their lotteries/raffles and literally beg for donations. Aside from the fact that some people avoid any and all gambling for personal reasons, some of us just find it all really distasteful. Trading should not be locked behind this nonsense.

I'm not at all against guilds. I'm in five PVE guilds, and none of them do this (thankfully!). Two of them happen to have a trader, one in a pretty bad location and one in a decent one. So I am lucky. But the system is absurd. There is a ton of room for improvement.

spartaxoxo

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Imagine buying your groceries and clothes using the guild trader model in real life. It would be much more costly! Why would someone think that prices are kept down in a game in the same type of model?

Assuming the ability to source goods and cost to receive those goods are the same for all businesses....

You will have lower prices if there's a bunch of competing stores than a single store in town.

Edit:
Evidence has been presented.

The factually lower prices of console vs PC, that inflation is true across all games with a centralized system, the general MMO practice of "buy low and sell high" being harder on console, while it's significantly easier on PC or those other games, and the basic economic idea of competition leading to lower prices.

You've rejected that evidence as compelling to you, which fair enough, but it was asked for and given.

FlopsyPrince

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Imagine buying your groceries and clothes using the guild trader model in real life. It would be much more costly! Why would someone think that prices are kept down in a game in the same type of model?

Assuming the ability to source goods and cost to receive those goods are the same for all businesses....

You will have lower prices if there's a bunch of competing stores than a single store in town.

Edit:
Evidence has been presented.

The factually lower prices of console vs PC, that inflation is true across all games with a centralized system, the general MMO practice of "buy low and sell high" being harder on console, while it's significantly easier on PC or those other games, and the basic economic idea of competition leading to lower prices.

You've rejected that evidence as compelling to you, which fair enough, but it was asked for and given.

It is not just competition that pushes prices down, it is scale and the ability to participate in that competition. You do not have that true competition in ESO because you (as a player) cannot truly price things comparatively without a LOT of time NOT DOING other things that are likely a higher priority.

spartaxoxo

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Imagine buying your groceries and clothes using the guild trader model in real life. It would be much more costly! Why would someone think that prices are kept down in a game in the same type of model?

Assuming the ability to source goods and cost to receive those goods are the same for all businesses....

You will have lower prices if there's a bunch of competing stores than a single store in town.

Edit:
Evidence has been presented.

The factually lower prices of console vs PC, that inflation is true across all games with a centralized system, the general MMO practice of "buy low and sell high" being harder on console, while it's significantly easier on PC or those other games, and the basic economic idea of competition leading to lower prices.

You've rejected that evidence as compelling to you, which fair enough, but it was asked for and given.

It is not just competition that pushes prices down, it is scale and the ability to participate in that competition. You do not have that true competition in ESO because you (as a player) cannot truly price things comparatively without a LOT of time NOT DOING other things that are likely a higher priority.

Speak for yourself. Many players manage to price things comparatively without a lot of effort. I don't need to have the best price on the server, I just need to have the best price in my location because I'm in a good spot. And I just need to beat the capital prices significantly when I'm in a bad one.

It doesn't take me long to price things at all and I am NOT a high end trader nor do I use add-ons as a console player. It's very easy.

It's easy for me to know the generally good prices. It's hard for me to buy things for flipping without a lot of effort. Which is why I don't do it. I have previously known people who have though and they are far richer than me. I still make enough coin though that I can buy all my needs and all but the most expensive, luxurious of wants. And that is good enough for me as a casual trader.

kargen27

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

Running around for hours to different traders just to find something is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

Here is the funny thing about that.
Running around for hours taking different keeps just to get AP is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.
Same thing with doing trials, undaunted dailies, crafting, decorating homes and other activities could also be said. People enjoy the game in different ways.
So we could just cut to the chase and say running around for hours playing ESO is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.

False argument. You are playing the game in those other examples. While running around to traders is playing the game, no MMO starts on running around to traders while MMOs do start on the other things you note!

Trading is something you can do in ESO on day one. PvP isn't available until level 10. Pledges are unlocked at level 45. I think you will find in other games you can start buying and selling almost instantly as well limited not by game time but resources you have available.
What other game says hey do whatever you want in the game except buy and sell goods until you reach a higher level? I think New World tried it to stop farming bots but it didn't work.

ESO_player123

Pevey wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I do not understand your logic. Someone created a guild and set the rules for membership. Their guild - their rules. If someone does not like to pay the membership fee, they can join another guild or start their own.
Same for guilds that say they are for RP only or for vampires/WW only.

Note, that I do not defend the practice. I would not join a guild with a fee.

I accept most of that.
I don't agree that I should have to pay in-game funds or engage in slavery to be a guild member.

Slavery? All guilds are voluntary.

And just join one without dues then

Even trade guilds with no dues will spam you with notifications about their lotteries/raffles and literally beg for donations. Aside from the fact that some people avoid any and all gambling for personal reasons, some of us just find it all really distasteful. Trading should not be locked behind this nonsense.

I'm not at all against guilds. I'm in five PVE guilds, and none of them do this (thankfully!). Two of them happen to have a trader, one in a pretty bad location and one in a decent one. So I am lucky. But the system is absurd. There is a ton of room for improvement.

Then may be start you own trading guild that does not require any fees and does not do raffles/does not beg for donations?

Again, I'm not defending the practice (and I'm not a member of any guild), but it seems that it's a lot of effort/money to support a trading guild and get a trader.

FlopsyPrince

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Imagine buying your groceries and clothes using the guild trader model in real life. It would be much more costly! Why would someone think that prices are kept down in a game in the same type of model?

Assuming the ability to source goods and cost to receive those goods are the same for all businesses....

You will have lower prices if there's a bunch of competing stores than a single store in town.

Edit:
Evidence has been presented.

The factually lower prices of console vs PC, that inflation is true across all games with a centralized system, the general MMO practice of "buy low and sell high" being harder on console, while it's significantly easier on PC or those other games, and the basic economic idea of competition leading to lower prices.

You've rejected that evidence as compelling to you, which fair enough, but it was asked for and given.

It is not just competition that pushes prices down, it is scale and the ability to participate in that competition. You do not have that true competition in ESO because you (as a player) cannot truly price things comparatively without a LOT of time NOT DOING other things that are likely a higher priority.

Speak for yourself. Many players manage to price things comparatively without a lot of effort. I don't need to have the best price on the server, I just need to have the best price in my location because I'm in a good spot. And I just need to beat the capital prices significantly when I'm in a bad one.

It doesn't take me long to price things at all and I am NOT a high end trader nor do I use add-ons as a console player. It's very easy.

It's easy for me to know the generally good prices. It's hard for me to buy things for flipping without a lot of effort. Which is why I don't do it. I have previously known people who have though and they are far richer than me. I still make enough coin though that I can buy all my needs and all but the most expensive, luxurious of wants. And that is good enough for me as a casual trader.

Name 1 MMO that has the primary/base feature of "run from trader to trader for great gameplay. I bet you can't name one, at least one that truly fits.

You may do well enough with your pricing, but you are still guessing and most of us still do not find that part interesting. I guess (on console) based on how much the same item is being sold by my 5 guilds, but that is not a good measure and may or may not sell things nor get me a reasonable price if they do sell. It is a crap shoot. I may win sometimes, but I am much more likely to use, just like playing dice.

This goes back to the hidden information I noted much earlier on. It is not completely hidden, but it takes a lot of effort to really find the reasonable value (either to buy or sell) for anything not in the norm.