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• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – November 13, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
What the Hell is all the different trading guilds? It should be all one spot to trade everything lik
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Decentralized trade has kept prices at a good level for years on console. We never had an inflation problem. If anything, all the huge gold sinks they introduced to combat PCs issues has caused prices to lower on the majority of items.
Please present more evidence for this than just asserting it.
Decentralized trade is the economy on console. It is consistently the case across both consoles that prices are low and inflation is low.
PC, through the use of add-ons, has both an easier time generating coin and centralized trade through add-ons. And it has had, until more recently, large amounts of inflation. These are the things that make it different to console.
In addition, most MMOs feature centralized trade. And they all have the same exact problem with inflation that PC has.
If the older games with centralized trade all have inflation problems that are generally accepted as normal for old games, and the old game that doesn't have it does not face these problems, then chances are strong that similar economic systems are naturally facing similar economic problems due to issues inherent to these systems.
On console, for example, some years ago we used to see rosin regularly sold at around 5k. Prior to the guild store changes they were selling at around 2.5 to 3k. Currently they are around 2k. This is a result of both mat botting, but also due to the coin sinks. Console never made as much coin as PC, as there was no lazy writ add-on.
Logically, we can also see some very obvious reasons as to why this might be the case.
Decentralized trade means that a greater number of competitors can exist in the system, just numerically. And we know that competition naturally keeps prices more competitive. That's a pretty basic concept. It's one of the many reasons monopolies aren't great.
A basic trading principle in online games is to buy low and sell high. Which leads to a few people (relative to the size of the population) buying up items for the purpose of increasing their price. Naturally, the less people that do this, the less impact it has on a market.
Your arguments don't make a solid case, just show some things that have not gone up in price. Crowns are also sold much cheaper (when that happens) on Console, but no game system helps that.
I am still not seeing the reason why letting the few benefit at the expense of the many, as the current system does, adds value. I do see many repeated assertions of that, but no firm evidence.
And your argument that console does not see the inflation you bring up on PC goes against your point. PC has the same trader system, thus it is not the existence of this trader system that limits anything.
And exactly how does the few benefit from the many? They don't. They benefit from the time and effort they put into trading. Just like players who get on the trial leader boards benefit from time and effort not from the many other players that don't make the list. It is much the same thing. The more time you spend on one aspect of the game the better you get.
People across multiple threads have given you good and logically sound reasons this system works and why going to a central system would be devastating. You disregard those answers because they don't fit into your wish to get everything you want at a low low price. Truth is a central system wouldn't give you that either. For rare items you would be paying even more because they would be easier to control.
Sure we could use some quality of life changes especially for consoles. The system though is sound and the economy is healthy. We have an engaging trading system that keeps many players in the game and active. Entire guilds are built around the trading system and there would be no benefit to removing how we trade now.
I was merely responding to the argument, not noting the likelihood of change. I understand that things are not likely to change much, unfortunately, but do continue to claim this is better is not accurate and I do oppose that claim, especially errant claims that it has kept prices down.
Note that the TTC addon can be helpful, but is far from a perfect solution and still leaves the "where the heck is it" problem with many items, even those it shows as being sold!
My question had nothing to do with whether or not a change would be made. My question was how is the few benefiting from the many.
Another question. When it comes to rare and semi rare items which system would make it harder to control the market and force price increases, a central system or a system with over 200 locations?
Prices for those items would increase. Market domination on rare items does take place in other games with a single location. And this system is better simply because it is more engaging and hasn't sacrificed the health of the economy. We have a strong economy and a system in place that is for many players why they play. So even if the actual market stability between the two systems were a was this is the superior system for the way it lets people play.
I was not arguing your point, I was just noting that some think TTC solves the problems, when even it does not.
yes, but you stated the few were benefitting from the many. I want to know how they are doing that.
The few who actively track the real price of things are benefiting from the many that do not have hours to try to find that out.
Just like those who actively run trials end up on the leader boards unlike the players that do not spend the time. The trade system has many tiers and the more time you invest the better you do just like trail runs, PvP, and other fun stuff. They are not benefiting off the many they are benefitting from the time they invest.
As I said, you support the few profiting at the expense of the many.
Hidden information is the problem. You can do well at Trials, PvP and even other areas without being in the top group. You cannot do that in the markets. Well, most people can. I will likely never do that well in PvP, though I still do some things there but I know my limits. No other game makes those areas easier. Other games remove much hidden pricing information, quite successfully.
And as I said they are not profiting at the expense of the many. You've offered nothing to support your opinion.
What hidden information? Everybody on PC has the same access to add-ons. Even without add-ons it isn't that hard to figure out prices. If you are selling an item you've not sold before check a few guild locations and see what prices items are being listed. Put some time in. Other games aren't uncovering hidden prices because there are none. They are putting everything in one spot. You have to go interact with that one spot to see the prices. In ESO the more traders you interact with the better perspective you have on pricing. It takes more time but any player can do it so no advantage goes to any one player other than the amount of time they are willing to put in.
With the add-ons prices become a little easier to predict but the prices and item availability with add-ons often isn't up to date and accurate. I rarely visit TTC and when I did I was looking for mid level green recipes so I could collect them all. I'm not in a top trade guild and never purchase items to flip but I'm still sitting on close to 80 million gold. I'm lucky that the activities I enjoy drop items other players are willing to purchase.
I've listed items that sold almost before I could list the next item and that told me I underpriced the item. I've listed items that didn't sell at all. That told me I priced it to high. I learn and adjust. It's all a matter of putting in the time.
You clearly insist upon not listening to what I am saying, so go for what you want to believe.
I know where the system has fallen far short a great many times, on both console and the PC. Many others have noted the same. You are free to ignore all of us if you wish of course.
No I am absolutely listening. I disagree with your conclusion. You've presenting nothing to offer how a few profit from many. You have mentioned several times you can't find items at a price you want to pay and base what you want to pay on what others determine to be the worth. That isn't a game problem. Players have to decide if their time or their gold is more precious to them when deciding what they are willing to pay. Whether it is in zone chat or in a trader menu it comes down to the same thing. The buyer and seller agreeing on a price.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."6 -
xilfxlegion✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Decentralized trade has kept prices at a good level for years on console. We never had an inflation problem. If anything, all the huge gold sinks they introduced to combat PCs issues has caused prices to lower on the majority of items.
Please present more evidence for this than just asserting it.
Decentralized trade is the economy on console. It is consistently the case across both consoles that prices are low and inflation is low.
PC, through the use of add-ons, has both an easier time generating coin and centralized trade through add-ons. And it has had, until more recently, large amounts of inflation. These are the things that make it different to console.
In addition, most MMOs feature centralized trade. And they all have the same exact problem with inflation that PC has.
If the older games with centralized trade all have inflation problems that are generally accepted as normal for old games, and the old game that doesn't have it does not face these problems, then chances are strong that similar economic systems are naturally facing similar economic problems due to issues inherent to these systems.
On console, for example, some years ago we used to see rosin regularly sold at around 5k. Prior to the guild store changes they were selling at around 2.5 to 3k. Currently they are around 2k. This is a result of both mat botting, but also due to the coin sinks. Console never made as much coin as PC, as there was no lazy writ add-on.
Logically, we can also see some very obvious reasons as to why this might be the case.
Decentralized trade means that a greater number of competitors can exist in the system, just numerically. And we know that competition naturally keeps prices more competitive. That's a pretty basic concept. It's one of the many reasons monopolies aren't great.
A basic trading principle in online games is to buy low and sell high. Which leads to a few people (relative to the size of the population) buying up items for the purpose of increasing their price. Naturally, the less people that do this, the less impact it has on a market.
Your arguments don't make a solid case, just show some things that have not gone up in price. Crowns are also sold much cheaper (when that happens) on Console, but no game system helps that.
I am still not seeing the reason why letting the few benefit at the expense of the many, as the current system does, adds value. I do see many repeated assertions of that, but no firm evidence.
And your argument that console does not see the inflation you bring up on PC goes against your point. PC has the same trader system, thus it is not the existence of this trader system that limits anything.
And exactly how does the few benefit from the many? They don't. They benefit from the time and effort they put into trading. Just like players who get on the trial leader boards benefit from time and effort not from the many other players that don't make the list. It is much the same thing. The more time you spend on one aspect of the game the better you get.
People across multiple threads have given you good and logically sound reasons this system works and why going to a central system would be devastating. You disregard those answers because they don't fit into your wish to get everything you want at a low low price. Truth is a central system wouldn't give you that either. For rare items you would be paying even more because they would be easier to control.
Sure we could use some quality of life changes especially for consoles. The system though is sound and the economy is healthy. We have an engaging trading system that keeps many players in the game and active. Entire guilds are built around the trading system and there would be no benefit to removing how we trade now.
I was merely responding to the argument, not noting the likelihood of change. I understand that things are not likely to change much, unfortunately, but do continue to claim this is better is not accurate and I do oppose that claim, especially errant claims that it has kept prices down.
Note that the TTC addon can be helpful, but is far from a perfect solution and still leaves the "where the heck is it" problem with many items, even those it shows as being sold!
My question had nothing to do with whether or not a change would be made. My question was how is the few benefiting from the many.
Another question. When it comes to rare and semi rare items which system would make it harder to control the market and force price increases, a central system or a system with over 200 locations?
Prices for those items would increase. Market domination on rare items does take place in other games with a single location. And this system is better simply because it is more engaging and hasn't sacrificed the health of the economy. We have a strong economy and a system in place that is for many players why they play. So even if the actual market stability between the two systems were a was this is the superior system for the way it lets people play.
I was not arguing your point, I was just noting that some think TTC solves the problems, when even it does not.
yes, but you stated the few were benefitting from the many. I want to know how they are doing that.
The few who actively track the real price of things are benefiting from the many that do not have hours to try to find that out.
Just like those who actively run trials end up on the leader boards unlike the players that do not spend the time. The trade system has many tiers and the more time you invest the better you do just like trail runs, PvP, and other fun stuff. They are not benefiting off the many they are benefitting from the time they invest.
As I said, you support the few profiting at the expense of the many.
Hidden information is the problem. You can do well at Trials, PvP and even other areas without being in the top group. You cannot do that in the markets. Well, most people can. I will likely never do that well in PvP, though I still do some things there but I know my limits. No other game makes those areas easier. Other games remove much hidden pricing information, quite successfully.
there is no hidden information and you can profit the same as everyone else profits.
everything in this game is free. everything. you just have to go get it. if you dont want to go get it then you pay the price to the person that did spend the time to go get it.
there is no few profiting from the many. there is no secret hidden cabal that controls prices --because there is thankfully no central auction house to manipulate the prices. and you can always find something cheaper -- or better yet, just go get it yourself for free.
the guild trader system has worked fine for the entire existence of this game, but there are always a few people here ( the same few people ) that constantly harp for something theyre not going to get. zos has stated there will never be an auction house. be thankful for that -- because if there was an auction house, greedy rich people like myself would control the market and it would be easy to do.9 -
GuuMoonRyoung✭✭✭✭Guild Store system is one thing I very much support. I have seen how global auction house system becomes controlled by a handful of people in other mmorpgs, glad that nonsense is not here.9
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LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.I have an ethereal crown of three spirit crows:
- On top is Grandfather spouting words of wisdom.
- On the left is Empathy who is rather naive.
- On the right is Ego who is rather greedy.
The incessant cackling is quite amusing.2 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.PC
PS4/PS54 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Y'know.... there's absolutely NO point in taking up space arguing this sort of thing.... If you don't like the way the devs' game works.... well.... there's obviously options. One of which IS NOT the devs deciding to change the way the current system works.
Again, tilting at windmills....______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Edited by ZOS_Icy on 30 August 2024 18:20______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
quinancia✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
What hidden information?4 -
xilfxlegion✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
What hidden information?
i think everyone in this thread is still trying to figure out this part, but alas, the hidden information is hidden from us8 -
xilfxlegion✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
except, the buyer determines the price. something is only worth what someone will pay for it. the current system may not work for you, but it has worked for the game since it started and it is working as intended.
which begs the question --- who is this " many of us " that you speak for ?7 -
LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
A rather incoherent reply. Any proof of the statement "(likely because they profit from such hidden information)" would be welcome.I have an ethereal crown of three spirit crows:
- On top is Grandfather spouting words of wisdom.
- On the left is Empathy who is rather naive.
- On the right is Ego who is rather greedy.
The incessant cackling is quite amusing.4 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
items that arent there are usually due to either being not worth the value to sell (most companion gear for example, i delete basically everything under purple unless i have previous sales data for it and its at least 1000g), or the items are extremely rare
in both cases, even with a global auction house, you would still be unlikely to find both items
if the item is selling for higher than your willing to pay, well simply dont pay it and keep looking, theres nothing in this game that you should be so desperate for that you would be willing to pay 10x what you think the value of the item isplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities6 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
items that arent there are usually due to either being not worth the value to sell (most companion gear for example, i delete basically everything under purple unless i have previous sales data for it and its at least 1000g), or the items are extremely rare
in both cases, even with a global auction house, you would still be unlikely to find both items
if the item is selling for higher than your willing to pay, well simply dont pay it and keep looking, theres nothing in this game that you should be so desperate for that you would be willing to pay 10x what you think the value of the item is
I put items not worth at least 2,000 gold in the guild store of a guild with no trader and list it for between 200 and 500 gold. Stuff under 1000 I list for around 100. If someone in the guild doesn't grab it I usually vendor or delete. Sometimes I put items in the guild bank but really don't want to clutter the bank inventory by depositing to much.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
items that arent there are usually due to either being not worth the value to sell (most companion gear for example, i delete basically everything under purple unless i have previous sales data for it and its at least 1000g), or the items are extremely rare
in both cases, even with a global auction house, you would still be unlikely to find both items
if the item is selling for higher than your willing to pay, well simply dont pay it and keep looking, theres nothing in this game that you should be so desperate for that you would be willing to pay 10x what you think the value of the item is
I put items not worth at least 2,000 gold in the guild store of a guild with no trader and list it for between 200 and 500 gold. Stuff under 1000 I list for around 100. If someone in the guild doesn't grab it I usually vendor or delete. Sometimes I put items in the guild bank but really don't want to clutter the bank inventory by depositing to much.
yeah not too far off from what i do, for most gear i usually just decon, unless i have sales data for it that is reasonably good
the only kind of items i usually "save" are holiday event items which i sell outside of the event (unless its an item which is just too common like the breton terrier bones)
most furnishing plans if they are under 500g ill list them in a less active guild, but if its less than 200g ill just vendor itplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »valenwood_vegan wrote: »Here we go again! See one of the dozens of other posts on this for the full discussion. Some want a central auction house, others like the guild trader system. Both have pros and cons.
Zos specifically designed, and seems to like, the guild trader system; at least past statements indicated that they were fond of it, though I don't know of anything recent; and they haven't announced plans to change it.
It keeps coming up because so many are not happy with the current system. Some clearly love it, but a fair number do not, something that is usually discounted by those who do love it.
No. It's not that some "clearly love" the current system. It's that we accept and work with it, rather than continually wishing for 'something else', more suited to our own personal preferences.
TTC is the problem; not a solution.
If TTC's recommended sales price includes the prices of UNSOLD items, then this happens:- Overpriced, but unsold items are included in the recommended pricing.
- The TTC recommended pricing is then higher than the actual sales 'average'.
- Players use this recommendation to price their goods.
- Goods then sell at this artificially higher price.
- The artificially high price then feeds into guild sales history used by other trading apps (ATT and MM)
- This artificially raises prices for sellers that don't even use TTC.
- inflation is the result
They should stop wasting their time using TTC and just make the effort to go to the various traders instead.
No, I don't like the central AH concept and the use of TTC as a surrogate is making the game worse, in my opinion.
For the past two weeks I have been playing without addons, just to experience how it is for our console cousins.
The worst part is the stupid 'total price' rather than pricing by unit.
As far as finding 'what price to sell at', I just look at what my guilds are currently selling at and determine it from that.
It's all really a moot point as trading is a dead game now. Thanks, TTC!
3 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If people are buying items at a certain price, then clearly that price is not "too high" (and all prices are artificial).
The only thing that indicates that a price is too high, is if it doesn't sell at that price, or doesn't sell quickly enough.
If TTC leads sellers to raise prices (I'm not saying it does, just for the sake of argument), and the items sell at those prices, the new prices aren't "too high", it's that the price has adjusted to supply and demand.
Also, inflation has nothing to do with inter-player trading. Inflation comes from feeding too much gold into the economy (by farming, rewards, etc. - all the ingame gold sources) and not destroying enough gold (with the single most important gold sink being the guild trader auctions). Guild trading just shifts money around, it doesn't become more (it does destroy a small amount, via listing fees). The reason for inflation, and therefore enough players being able to afford rising prices, is not player trading.Edited by Varana on 30 August 2024 09:483 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just a few observations.
First, a couple of broad concepts:
- On "hidden information" a lack of price transparency / discoverability in a market can lead to people not paying market price because they do not know what market price *is*.
- The same goes for cornering a market. You can corner a market more easily (and even by accident) if different parts of a market are highly segregated to the point most people use only the most frequented segments of a market.
Take, for example, supermarkets/grocery stores and a pack of sweets/candy. Most people get their sweets from the supermarket. They don't bother, for example, going online to look at the price they could get from a specialist sweets site. That price could be 50% of the price in the supermarket. It doesn't matter because too few people look. The prevailing price of the sweets is set by the supermarkets.
- Regarding inflation, it's not at all clear that the trading system combats inflation (and, indeed, the outcry we saw only a few weeks ago that prices had dropped from the steady rise they've been following for years rather suggests the total opposite -- that people had an expectation that prices would continue always rising and *other* changes in the game damaged that).
These topics have been discussed at length on other threads on this subject, but, as briefly as possible, applying them to ESO's trading system...
- In ESO's trading system, prices are not fully transparent / easily discoverable across the whole market. You cannot see what everyone is charging, everywhere for the same item. So unless someone devotes a lot of time in the game to literally going around from trader to trader off the beaten track -- a process that takes literally hours -- they are not going to get an accurate idea of global pricing. So there is, in that sense, hidden information that most users cannot discern.
And for those in favour of that, in favour of trading as a minigame that takes an enormous amount of time investment to "play", that's all right.
But a lot of players do *not* see trading as such and the question is where ZOS should be drawing the line. How much should trading be a transparent, backend system no different from, say, inventory management. How much should it be a distinct *gameplay*, rather than functional, element and designed around the desires of the (presumably minority of) players who see it primarily in that light.
- What happens in practice is that most players look only at the big trading centres, eg Mournhold, Vivec, and don't bother to look at other locations in the game because it is so time consuming.
So, no, you do not have a wide market which keeps prices competitive. You have a very small market from which people get pricing information -- prices are being set by a MUCH smaller number of traders than the total number of traders in the game.
Far from being difficult to manipulate, that means ESO's trading system actually ends up with a very low number of traders dictating prevailing market prices for everyone. It ends up giving sellers at those locations arguably considerably more power than they would be able to exercise with an auction house because they're not competing with all sellers, only a small subset of them -- other sellers in the game become essentially irrelevant to price setting.
I'm not saying that all players consciously exploit this, but the price you choose to charge at a trader in Mournhold influences the global price of items in the game whether you are aware of that or not. The price you choose to charge at a little trader a mile from a wayshrine in a jungle does not, because barely anyone bothers to shop there.
- On inflation, people claim that the trader bids act as gold sinks. Perhaps they do. But guilds have to raise dues of sellers in the highest profile trading locations to be able to *pay for* the bids. And sellers, to be able to pay the dues for that, have to be able to make enough gold.
The result? As bids go up in the major locations, selling prices go up. If the trading system combats any inflation at all, it combats the inflation created by the guild trader / bidding system itself. At best, it has no impact on inflation compared to what would happen with a different trading setup. At worst, it is only skimming *some* of the inflation that the trading setup *itself* brings about.Edited by Northwold on 30 August 2024 13:476 -
shadyjane62✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[snip]
Do the right thing and give us a centralized place, like maybe an Auction House to straighten things out.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 30 August 2024 18:233 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It depend on the items, some mass items like intricate jewelry I sell as it move fast even if cheap.Necrotech_Master wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »When this game was designed there were already very popular games with central auction houses and the ESO developers opted to make their own system.
I seriously doubt that they will change their unique trading system anytime soon.
Of course not. But claiming the current system is "just great" is wrong for many of us.
And to the other reply, no, it it not just the price, it is a "normal" price. Many items are either not there or 10x (or more) of what most sales go at. Meaning they are massively overpriced but the only current option. Lousy system for many of us and someone's love for it (likely because they profit from such hidden information) doesn't mean it is good for the game overall.
items that arent there are usually due to either being not worth the value to sell (most companion gear for example, i delete basically everything under purple unless i have previous sales data for it and its at least 1000g), or the items are extremely rare
in both cases, even with a global auction house, you would still be unlikely to find both items
if the item is selling for higher than your willing to pay, well simply dont pay it and keep looking, theres nothing in this game that you should be so desperate for that you would be willing to pay 10x what you think the value of the item is
I put items not worth at least 2,000 gold in the guild store of a guild with no trader and list it for between 200 and 500 gold. Stuff under 1000 I list for around 100. If someone in the guild doesn't grab it I usually vendor or delete. Sometimes I put items in the guild bank but really don't want to clutter the bank inventory by depositing to much.
Cheap motifs and blueprints I give to guild bank or have alt learn as they are more limited in number of buyers.
Fot TTC I tend to go for the lower 10% of listings, might go a bit higher if expensive and not some new blueprint who I know will be common in days.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭
The trading system in ESO was designed to be a sub-function to the social guild feature.But a lot of players do *not* see trading as such and the question is where ZOS should be drawing the line. How much should trading be a transparent, backend system no different from, say, inventory management. How much should it be a distinct *gameplay*, rather than functional, element and designed around the desires of the (presumably minority of) players who see it primarily in that light.
It was never designed to be a primary system.
Trade was supposed to be primarily and internally between Guild members, with an occasional external presence to all players.
From those two basic elements, players have created the mess that we have now e.g.:
You talk about "dues" - This is actually extortion.
The guilds demanding dues/fees/mandatory 'donations'/minimum sales; are extortionists.
Check the definition and prove to me that I'm wrong on this. Yet everyone goes along with it, as if it's a ZOS feature; it isn't.
No-one is forced to run a guild, before anyone goes down that path.
This is just laziness on the part of players; or inexperienced players taking the poor advice of misinformed players.- What happens in practice is that most players look only at the big trading centres, eg Mournhold, Vivec, and don't bother to look at other locations in the game because it is so time consuming.
One reason Mournhold is popular is that the traders are RIGHT NEXT to the wayshrine.
All popular trading locations have this feature, it isn't a coincidence.
It dosen't take much time to teleport between wayshrines...
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FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just a few observations.
First, a couple of broad concepts:
- On "hidden information" a lack of price transparency / discoverability in a market can lead to people not paying market price because they do not know what market price *is*.
(snip)
Very good summary. That would include selling at the "normal" price.
The information is not technically hidden, but is very hard to find.
I doubt many people here studied how economics worked in retail (or wholesale for that matter) prior to the Internet. Information is effectively hidden if it is not possible to find it quickly. That is how the current system works.
A player must get consumed with checking almost all guild vendors for details. TTC on the PC helps a bit, but only somewhat.
That is "hidden information" because most players want to play the game (quests, dungeons, other game activities) rather than running from guild trader to guild trader. Yes, that is "playing" but not a fun part for almost all players.
PC
PS4/PS52 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭shadyjane62 wrote: »[snip]
Do the right thing and give us a centralized place, like maybe an Auction House to straighten things out.
[edited for baiting]
an auction house will make prices go even more out of control than before
its like nobody here has played any game with a central auction house and seen the flippers and monopolies in full force
those markets absolutely suck to try to buy fromplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities5 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Welcome to ESO. This is not EverQuest or WoW. The devs here chose to go with a guild-based trading system. I do not recall the reasoning, but they clearly like how it performs after making some tweaks. In other words, as long as those same developers call the shots, there will be no central auction house. By the way, the top two people at Zenimax Online seem to have been sticking around for a while.
While I have no issues with the design in ESO and like that it is not a copy and paste of what other games have, I am in no way arguing against what they had to say, as they are entitled to their opinion. I am just explaining why this is the way it is here.
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Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭You talk about "dues" - This is actually extortion.
The guilds demanding dues/fees/mandatory 'donations'/minimum sales; are extortionists.
Check the definition and prove to me that I'm wrong on this. Yet everyone goes along with it, as if it's a ZOS feature; it isn't.
No-one is forced to run a guild, before anyone goes down that path.
I stopped paying my accountant, now she refuses to do my taxes. Extortion!
I haven't paid my membership fees for my tennis club, now they're kicking me out. Extortion!
I didn't renew my Netflix subscription, now I can't watch my series any more. Extortion!
Try suing anybody with that definition of "extortion" and see if a court will follow your logic
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Far from being difficult to manipulate, that means ESO's trading system actually ends up with a very low number of traders dictating prevailing market prices for everyone."
Even if there are only five top tier hubs (and I believe the number is higher) that means more than 25 locations giving us up to 12,500 individual players offering goods. I don't know of any guild that dictates what prices members can charge. Manipulation of prices would be difficult even among just those traders.
Looking at just the base game and locations with at least five traders all near each other we have a potential of 30,000 individual players selling in just those locations. If the trade guilds are only 1/3 capacity and active that is still 10,000 players trading. For common items such as crafting materials players probably just go for convenience and might be paying more than what they would looking around. For rare items though players might tend to look around a bit before jumping on the first price they see.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭
'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'You talk about "dues" - This is actually extortion.
The guilds demanding dues/fees/mandatory 'donations'/minimum sales; are extortionists.
Check the definition and prove to me that I'm wrong on this. Yet everyone goes along with it, as if it's a ZOS feature; it isn't.
No-one is forced to run a guild, before anyone goes down that path.
I stopped paying my accountant, now she refuses to do my taxes. Extortion!
I haven't paid my membership fees for my tennis club, now they're kicking me out. Extortion!
I didn't renew my Netflix subscription, now I can't watch my series any more. Extortion!
Try suing anybody with that definition of "extortion" and see if a court will follow your logic
Your real-world examples are bound by real-world legislation.
IRL, your accountant is a registered, incorporated entity (body corporate)for legislative purposes.
IRL, if your tennis club is collecting fees, paying bills and tax, it will be structured according to (body corporate) legislation.
IRL, you will have signed a binding contract with Netflix and the conditions are legally enforceable.
'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'
Continued membership of a guild, based on the payment of fees, is extortion by guild owners.
They use the threat of expulsion to obtain compliance.
ZOS have never set any mechanism in place to actively facilitate this.
To the best of my understanding ZOS actively chose not to have an auction house. What we should be seeing is actively social guilds, with players trading amongst themselves for modest gold income; and occasionally hiring a trader in any available location to enable sales to players that aren't members of that guild. That's how it should be working.
You may say that's delusional thinking; but it's no more or less delusional than all the references to "the market" and "normal prices" as if in-game trading in ESO is in any way comparable to any real world economy, anywhere.
We don't need; and most of us don't want an auction house. What we need is to go back to the intended system.
1 -
gamma71✭✭✭✭Running around for hours to different traders just to find something is stupid. The people that like it so much don't have anything better to do so they don't mind.5
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ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭
'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'You talk about "dues" - This is actually extortion.
The guilds demanding dues/fees/mandatory 'donations'/minimum sales; are extortionists.
Check the definition and prove to me that I'm wrong on this. Yet everyone goes along with it, as if it's a ZOS feature; it isn't.
No-one is forced to run a guild, before anyone goes down that path.
I stopped paying my accountant, now she refuses to do my taxes. Extortion!
I haven't paid my membership fees for my tennis club, now they're kicking me out. Extortion!
I didn't renew my Netflix subscription, now I can't watch my series any more. Extortion!
Try suing anybody with that definition of "extortion" and see if a court will follow your logic
Your real-world examples are bound by real-world legislation.
IRL, your accountant is a registered, incorporated entity (body corporate)for legislative purposes.
IRL, if your tennis club is collecting fees, paying bills and tax, it will be structured according to (body corporate) legislation.
IRL, you will have signed a binding contract with Netflix and the conditions are legally enforceable.
'the act of obtaining something from someone, especially money, by using force or threats'
Continued membership of a guild, based on the payment of fees, is extortion by guild owners.
They use the threat of expulsion to obtain compliance.
ZOS have never set any mechanism in place to actively facilitate this.
To the best of my understanding ZOS actively chose not to have an auction house. What we should be seeing is actively social guilds, with players trading amongst themselves for modest gold income; and occasionally hiring a trader in any available location to enable sales to players that aren't members of that guild. That's how it should be working.
You may say that's delusional thinking; but it's no more or less delusional than all the references to "the market" and "normal prices" as if in-game trading in ESO is in any way comparable to any real world economy, anywhere.
We don't need; and most of us don't want an auction house. What we need is to go back to the intended system.
I do not understand your logic. Someone created a guild and set the rules for membership. Their guild - their rules. If someone does not like to pay the membership fee, they can join another guild or start their own.
Same for guilds that say they are for RP only or for vampires/WW only.
Note, that I do not defend the practice. I would not join a guild with a fee.5
