ZOS, Massive Spike in Ping/LAG in Recent Days - What Gives?

Onomog

LaintalAy wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

These issues are WELL outside the "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" .

Or they would be if there were any industry standards.

I think the standard for the industry is whatever they can get away with. /shrug

twev

Onomog wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

These issues are WELL outside the "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" .

Or they would be if there were any industry standards.

I think the standard for the industry is whatever they can get away with. /shrug

I was going to say: "whatever a player base will put up with", depending on whether a company counts on retaining players, or just replacing players who get tired of bad performance with a stream of newer players who haven't been schooled, yet.

You're all free to draw your own conclusions as to which end of the balance we're at, at this point in the life of the game.

Coo_PnT

I think ZoS knows this well enough, but the longer this situation continues, the more people will leave ESO. I am one of those who love this ESO and hope it will improve.

thinkaboutit

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Hold on a second, can you please elaborate on your statement? Are you saying the team is not sure it's on YOUR end or OUR end?

dk_dunkirk

DinoZavr wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin thank you for keeping communication alive

in my humble understanding:
- freezes are caused by the Zenimax load balancers, which do not have enough buffers and lose packets
- lags are overloaded servers lacking CPU capacity
- disconnects have two reasons: the major one is load balancers do not have sufficient buffers to service the entire amount of connections from online players, the minor one is the code unable to relocate players from one location to another or poor backend server interconnections (derived from the fact connection is often broken because of teleporting from one zone/house to another)
Being "bundled" together these different issues (and many other issues like bugs) form the Gordian Knot of ESO hard to diagnose and fix.
Issues need man-hours and budget to be fought and, eventually, resolved. Plus intent, motivation and skills to proceed with them fixes attempts.

What do you base *any* of this on? When has ZOS ever talked about their load balancers, CPU "capacity," or buffer counts and sizes? Unless I missing something significant, ZOS would never comment on such things.

dk_dunkirk

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

When multiple people get dropped in a run, that seems like a "you" problem. When multiple people in the trial suddenly rubber-band for several seconds at the same time, that's definitely a "you" problem. You say different factors are outside of your influence, but that's not really true. Even if the problem isn't your core networking code, or the addition of a layer of AI filtering, or anything else in the code base -- even if it is due to some deep routing or caching issue from various providers -- you can and should be able to identify these issues, and fix or work around them. Like the Twilight Zone, YOU control the horizontal AND the vertical. You guys get to make the calls and choices that make up the entire stack.

I despise the notion that the game is some mysterious magical tower at this point, that can't be questioned or inspected, and that we're just going to have to live with it now, because it's too hard to fix. I love programming because code never does anything except precisely what you've told it to do, and when it doesn't work like you think, it's because you didn't understand what you thought you were telling it to do. And even if it's a bug at the very lowest level, down in a kernel driver, all the tools to find and fix the problem are at your disposal.

One thing I am positive of: if there were a third-party boogey man here -- say, an Akami thing or a Cloudflare thing or Windows update thing or a Steam thing -- you'd throw that thing under the bus in a heartbeat, and there's been none of that. Not even a whisper. That's telling.

LadyGP

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

When multiple people get dropped in a run, that seems like a "you" problem. When multiple people in the trial suddenly rubber-band for several seconds at the same time, that's definitely a "you" problem. You say different factors are outside of your influence, but that's not really true. Even if the problem isn't your core networking code, or the addition of a layer of AI filtering, or anything else in the code base -- even if it is due to some deep routing or caching issue from various providers -- you can and should be able to identify these issues, and fix or work around them. Like the Twilight Zone, YOU control the horizontal AND the vertical. You guys get to make the calls and choices that make up the entire stack.

I despise the notion that the game is some mysterious magical tower at this point, that can't be questioned or inspected, and that we're just going to have to live with it now, because it's too hard to fix. I love programming because code never does anything except precisely what you've told it to do, and when it doesn't work like you think, it's because you didn't understand what you thought you were telling it to do. And even if it's a bug at the very lowest level, down in a kernel driver, all the tools to find and fix the problem are at your disposal.

One thing I am positive of: if there were a third-party boogey man here -- say, an Akami thing or a Cloudflare thing or Windows update thing or a Steam thing -- you'd throw that thing under the bus in a heartbeat, and there's been none of that. Not even a whisper. That's telling.

As a software dev myself I feel this deep in my soul. This. Is. It.

Coo_PnT

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

When multiple people get dropped in a run, that seems like a "you" problem. When multiple people in the trial suddenly rubber-band for several seconds at the same time, that's definitely a "you" problem. You say different factors are outside of your influence, but that's not really true. Even if the problem isn't your core networking code, or the addition of a layer of AI filtering, or anything else in the code base -- even if it is due to some deep routing or caching issue from various providers -- you can and should be able to identify these issues, and fix or work around them. Like the Twilight Zone, YOU control the horizontal AND the vertical. You guys get to make the calls and choices that make up the entire stack.

I despise the notion that the game is some mysterious magical tower at this point, that can't be questioned or inspected, and that we're just going to have to live with it now, because it's too hard to fix. I love programming because code never does anything except precisely what you've told it to do, and when it doesn't work like you think, it's because you didn't understand what you thought you were telling it to do. And even if it's a bug at the very lowest level, down in a kernel driver, all the tools to find and fix the problem are at your disposal.

One thing I am positive of: if there were a third-party boogey man here -- say, an Akami thing or a Cloudflare thing or Windows update thing or a Steam thing -- you'd throw that thing under the bus in a heartbeat, and there's been none of that. Not even a whisper. That's telling.

I am a normal person, not an expert, so please explain briefly. Is this a problem that can be solved by us players? Or is it a problem on the ZoS side? Is there anything an individual can do?

thinkaboutit

I am a network engineer by trade and this is definitely a network/infra problem.

LadyGP

Coo_PnT wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

When multiple people get dropped in a run, that seems like a "you" problem. When multiple people in the trial suddenly rubber-band for several seconds at the same time, that's definitely a "you" problem. You say different factors are outside of your influence, but that's not really true. Even if the problem isn't your core networking code, or the addition of a layer of AI filtering, or anything else in the code base -- even if it is due to some deep routing or caching issue from various providers -- you can and should be able to identify these issues, and fix or work around them. Like the Twilight Zone, YOU control the horizontal AND the vertical. You guys get to make the calls and choices that make up the entire stack.

I despise the notion that the game is some mysterious magical tower at this point, that can't be questioned or inspected, and that we're just going to have to live with it now, because it's too hard to fix. I love programming because code never does anything except precisely what you've told it to do, and when it doesn't work like you think, it's because you didn't understand what you thought you were telling it to do. And even if it's a bug at the very lowest level, down in a kernel driver, all the tools to find and fix the problem are at your disposal.

One thing I am positive of: if there were a third-party boogey man here -- say, an Akami thing or a Cloudflare thing or Windows update thing or a Steam thing -- you'd throw that thing under the bus in a heartbeat, and there's been none of that. Not even a whisper. That's telling.

I am a normal person, not an expert, so please explain briefly. Is this a problem that can be solved by us players? Or is it a problem on the ZoS side? Is there anything an individual can do?

This is 100% an issue on ZoS infa side.

The only thing that has been mentioned that slightly improves the issue on our side is using a VPN to play. When I played I would use Kansas and Seattle and that would sometimes work. Other times it made it even worse. Overall, I'd say a VPN brought my crashes down from 5-10 an hour to about 2 an hour. Still... unacceptable for a game.

LadyGP

thinkaboutit wrote: »

I am a network engineer by trade and this is definitely a network/infra problem.

This.

Coo_PnT

thinkaboutit wrote: »

I am a network engineer by trade and this is definitely a network/infra problem.

Thank you very much.

Dojohoda

Just after logging in and whilst looking at the atrocious endeavor choices, I got the 'ole "an error occurred" smackdown.
THIS WAS SO FUN that it didn't bother logging back into that account.

Coo_PnT

LadyGP wrote: »

Coo_PnT wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

When multiple people get dropped in a run, that seems like a "you" problem. When multiple people in the trial suddenly rubber-band for several seconds at the same time, that's definitely a "you" problem. You say different factors are outside of your influence, but that's not really true. Even if the problem isn't your core networking code, or the addition of a layer of AI filtering, or anything else in the code base -- even if it is due to some deep routing or caching issue from various providers -- you can and should be able to identify these issues, and fix or work around them. Like the Twilight Zone, YOU control the horizontal AND the vertical. You guys get to make the calls and choices that make up the entire stack.

I despise the notion that the game is some mysterious magical tower at this point, that can't be questioned or inspected, and that we're just going to have to live with it now, because it's too hard to fix. I love programming because code never does anything except precisely what you've told it to do, and when it doesn't work like you think, it's because you didn't understand what you thought you were telling it to do. And even if it's a bug at the very lowest level, down in a kernel driver, all the tools to find and fix the problem are at your disposal.

One thing I am positive of: if there were a third-party boogey man here -- say, an Akami thing or a Cloudflare thing or Windows update thing or a Steam thing -- you'd throw that thing under the bus in a heartbeat, and there's been none of that. Not even a whisper. That's telling.

I am a normal person, not an expert, so please explain briefly. Is this a problem that can be solved by us players? Or is it a problem on the ZoS side? Is there anything an individual can do?

This is 100% an issue on ZoS infa side.

The only thing that has been mentioned that slightly improves the issue on our side is using a VPN to play. When I played I would use Kansas and Seattle and that would sometimes work. Other times it made it even worse. Overall, I'd say a VPN brought my crashes down from 5-10 an hour to about 2 an hour. Still... unacceptable for a game.

Dear LadyGP-san
I know you have been working hard for months now. Thank you so very, very much.

thinkaboutit

Give us a technical POC to work with there's plenty of people here from the endgame and PvP community that would work with ya'll in real-time. Let's stop playing the blame/plausible deniability game and get this resolved together...

SkaiFaith

LadyGP wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

XBOX EU - After today's maintenance I finally logged in at first try and been able to remain in game without disconnections for a couple of hours. To be fair I just did housing and trading, so nothing intense, and I still got worried during a long loading screen to my house, but at the moment it seems better for me. I'll see in the coming days.
Btw still no fix on consoles' broken new features, but that's a whole other thread.

Fingers crossed it's fixed for you!!!!

Aaand it's not XD - it degraded quickly, today some issues have returned.
I get long loading screens when visiting other players' homes.
I got out of my Alinor home and I couldn't mount, Isobel didn't load, I could only walk/run. It sorted itself out after about 15 seconds.
Infinite Archive did occasionally lag.

I'm not touching PvP for sure.
Still hope things get better one day...

GlassHalfFull

@ZOS_Kevin thank you for your recent communication.

I have only 15 days left on my quarterly subscription, and during the past few months of this issue I have been looking for a response which at least minimally encourages me to continue the renewal.

This response, while welcome, was not encouraging.

LadyGP

Coo_PnT wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Coo_PnT wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

When multiple people get dropped in a run, that seems like a "you" problem. When multiple people in the trial suddenly rubber-band for several seconds at the same time, that's definitely a "you" problem. You say different factors are outside of your influence, but that's not really true. Even if the problem isn't your core networking code, or the addition of a layer of AI filtering, or anything else in the code base -- even if it is due to some deep routing or caching issue from various providers -- you can and should be able to identify these issues, and fix or work around them. Like the Twilight Zone, YOU control the horizontal AND the vertical. You guys get to make the calls and choices that make up the entire stack.

I despise the notion that the game is some mysterious magical tower at this point, that can't be questioned or inspected, and that we're just going to have to live with it now, because it's too hard to fix. I love programming because code never does anything except precisely what you've told it to do, and when it doesn't work like you think, it's because you didn't understand what you thought you were telling it to do. And even if it's a bug at the very lowest level, down in a kernel driver, all the tools to find and fix the problem are at your disposal.

One thing I am positive of: if there were a third-party boogey man here -- say, an Akami thing or a Cloudflare thing or Windows update thing or a Steam thing -- you'd throw that thing under the bus in a heartbeat, and there's been none of that. Not even a whisper. That's telling.

I am a normal person, not an expert, so please explain briefly. Is this a problem that can be solved by us players? Or is it a problem on the ZoS side? Is there anything an individual can do?

This is 100% an issue on ZoS infa side.

The only thing that has been mentioned that slightly improves the issue on our side is using a VPN to play. When I played I would use Kansas and Seattle and that would sometimes work. Other times it made it even worse. Overall, I'd say a VPN brought my crashes down from 5-10 an hour to about 2 an hour. Still... unacceptable for a game.

Dear LadyGP-san
I know you have been working hard for months now. Thank you so very, very much.

Of course! I've moved over to Thrones and Liberty and it's been amazing to be immersed in a game for literally hours with ZERO performance issues.

I'll keep coming back here and doing anything/everything I can to get attention to this issue. I know how frustrating it is and some aren't going to move to a different game so anything I can do to help... I'll help.

That includes working with technical POC if ZoS ever decides to take some legit action on this issue aside from passing blame.

Nharimlur_Finor

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we wanted to provide you with a small update. As many of you know, overall performance in any online game can be affected by a variety of different factors, many of which are outside of our influence. We do have ways of mitigating those outside influence situations as they arise. We have also been investigating whether there may be more than the normal "order-of-business-for-an-online-game" happening lately.

As we continue to monitor your feedback and investigate game performance, when we make back-end adjustments in the future we will check in with you to gauge whether you are seeing improvements. Thank you for your continued patience and feedback – please keep it coming. Specific details including what type of performance issues you experienced (high ping, rubber-banding, disconnect, etc.), the time of day you experienced a game performance issue, and where you were in the game, is especially helpful.

Oof size: huge.

You guys know exactly when this started. You know the patch that started the problems. You can look at the changes that went in then, and work backwards to find the problem. I wouldn't say it's programming 101, but it's probably not more than 202.

Pelanora

Tandor wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

This thread started on May 7th. So we're coming up on 5 months of a major annoyance that LITERALLY everyone playing the game is experiencing. Lag, disconnects, rubber-banding : these are kind of a big deal for an online game, aren't they? At least, I would have thought so.

Not to diminish the importance for those who do suffer the problems, but it's simply not the case that everyone is suffering them, far from it. That's probably why it's so difficult for ZOS to track it down, they may be unable to recreate it at their end. It seems to be a combination of where you play from (i.e. how you route your connection to the servers) and what content you do (i.e. PvP - especially Cyrodiil - and competitive PvE). Some say it is beginning to affect overland content but I've never experienced that myself.

I have. Skills not firing, shuddering visuals. And lately sound lag separate from the visuals, which is new.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off-topic posts. While we understand that you may have interest in other games, this forum was created to talk about ESO. For further posts, we ask that you keep things more ESO related.

Thank you for your understanding.

tincanman

Pelanora wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

This thread started on May 7th. So we're coming up on 5 months of a major annoyance that LITERALLY everyone playing the game is experiencing. Lag, disconnects, rubber-banding : these are kind of a big deal for an online game, aren't they? At least, I would have thought so.

Not to diminish the importance for those who do suffer the problems, but it's simply not the case that everyone is suffering them, far from it. That's probably why it's so difficult for ZOS to track it down, they may be unable to recreate it at their end. It seems to be a combination of where you play from (i.e. how you route your connection to the servers) and what content you do (i.e. PvP - especially Cyrodiil - and competitive PvE). Some say it is beginning to affect overland content but I've never experienced that myself.

....And lately sound lag separate from the visuals, which is new....

I have same thing going on for some months now but assumed it was a driver issue. Maybe not...

Took a break from eso and came back to "unable to connect" errors, endless load screens at character selection with attendant disconnects. Oddly, the game will seem to be ok: no lag spike, freezing, stuttering etc then suddenly -disconnect- with the "unable to connect to server" error.

pcna

tincanman

Given we're at 65 pages and several months of this thread (not to mention the countless years of poor performance preceding this) I have to wonder if anyone has tried switching it off and on again?

/s

tincanman

Or hitting it with a large piece of wood. repeatedly?

/s

tincanman

Or, perhaps, tried the Charm of Making:

Anál nathrach, orth’ bháis’s bethad, do chél dénmha.

/s

LadyGP

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off-topic posts. While we understand that you may have interest in other games, this forum was created to talk about ESO. For further posts, we ask that you keep things more ESO related.

Thank you for your understanding.

-________________- There were comparisons between ESO and Tomatoes & Lettuce. Over moderating is real on these forums.

Theist_VII

LadyGP wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off-topic posts. While we understand that you may have interest in other games, this forum was created to talk about ESO. For further posts, we ask that you keep things more ESO related.

Thank you for your understanding.

-________________- There were comparisons between ESO and Tomatoes & Lettuce. Over moderating is real on these forums.

Such a good thing, Tomatoes & Lettuce.

They have yet to betray me, while the response Kevin gave to us reeks of it, it’s easy to echo a blame made from a higher up onto your consumers because it is an omission of guilt, but the burden is on Zenimax, make no mistake. When you’re working with Tomatoes & Lettuce, you have consistency, and always get what you signed up for, and occasionally, you will find the bacon.

LadyGP

Theist_VII wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off-topic posts. While we understand that you may have interest in other games, this forum was created to talk about ESO. For further posts, we ask that you keep things more ESO related.

Thank you for your understanding.

-________________- There were comparisons between ESO and Tomatoes & Lettuce. Over moderating is real on these forums.

Such a good thing, Tomatoes & Lettuce.

They have yet to betray me, while the response Kevin gave to us reeks of it, it’s easy to echo a blame made from a higher up onto your consumers because it is an omission of guilt, but the burden is on Zenimax, make no mistake. When you’re working with Tomatoes & Lettuce, you have consistency, and always get what you signed up for, and occasionally, you will find the bacon.

Bingo.

Now I'm hungry for a T&L with a side of bacon.

LadyGP

tincanman wrote: »

Given we're at 65 pages and several months of this thread (not to mention the countless years of poor performance preceding this) I have to wonder if anyone has tried switching it off and on again?

/s

To be honest... prior to the rubber banding issues.... performance was best the first day post servers being restarted. It would always go downhill with each passing day.

Now it's just rubber banding regardless of where we are in the maintenance schedule.

LadyGP

Xandreia_ wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off-topic posts. While we understand that you may have interest in other games, this forum was created to talk about ESO. For further posts, we ask that you keep things more ESO related.

Thank you for your understanding.

-________________- There were comparisons between ESO and Tomatoes & Lettuce. Over moderating is real on these forums.

[snip]

It isn't worth it!!!! lol.

[edited to remove quote]