Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513

HiImRex wrote: »

@StaticWave was going to log in today and play a couple BGs but thanks for dissuading me lol

For everyone else making useless arguments about max mag vs. full damage, this is a pvp forum no?

You can't go full damage build in pvp unless you're zerging with tons of support because you'll die instantly. Unless your can get 90% of the damage while becoming the tankiest build in the game atm

end of discussion.

That's not exactly true as it depends on where you play, your definition of fun, etc. I mean you'll die, everyone does but if you're good with offense you can make it your defense. You'll of course have to hump every tree, wall, etc but it's possible to make full damage work. I'm not saying that many can, just that it's not impossible just to clear.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The archetype I see most commonly used is something like Chudan/Alfiq/Wretched/DDF or Roksa/Alfiq/Rallying/DDF. There are probably better sets than Alfiq but it's convenient and does the job for the average player. This archetype can be tuned a variety of ways and is more than capable of dealing threatening levels of ranged damage (was seeing 11k Overloads from this sort of Sorc yesterday) while face tanking multiples thanks to one single spammable skill.

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

Ehhhh here's the thing though, a skill slot is a skill slot, you still need a couple of skill slots to make ward work. I don't want to mess around with editor but I do wonder if you just built each class to whatever spec would be considered usable and only put the heal on the bar how ward would compare to the others. So if Vigor in a slot makes a heal work and I have to use aegis and inner light to make my heal work then we're both giving up slots.

Edit,

I do see the GCD issue though I would argue that you can't just look at the healing that a class does to identify how that class is or isn't strong when everything else is taken into account.

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die. So if what we're calling unkillable is just actually hard to kill I'm still pointing my finger at other classes that the same can be said of and asking what about these guys?

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

I realized that the tooltip I gave for full spell damage was without berserker proc so it was missing a solid 500 spell damage. And this was without a mythic entirely, and because of the set choices it was I believe 6 light 1 heavy (war maiden and rally are both light). So feel like the 17k tooltip is a bit low. Had likely 21k with the typical sharpened and light armor 8k penetration for the spell damage setup I listed. (Went back and checked 21.5k without minor sorcery which is 18% higher than the magicka setup and well above 20% with minor sorcery) Probably just because of set choices, and being that Balorgh isn't proc'd for the tooltip, but 17k with SSC just seems REALLY low, is this all done with the build editor? I try to do all mine in game. For example my crafty, Hrothgar open world setup has over a 16k curse...

That being said 47k magicka is by no means an overpowered ward. That's what a 11-12k ward and 6k tooltip heal? If anything Rallying cry crit resistance is carrying any survivability that setup has because a 15k "temporary health" is not "overpowered". It's also definitely NOT a stacked magicka setup. The one I gave an example tooltip of was quite literally 63k stacked magicka and had a higher tooltip than your "spell damage" setup.

But yes we all know rallying cry is overtuned and needs a nerf as well... But it's also not a pure damage setup with it's crit chance, magicka bonus, and crit resist it's definitely a hybrid damage defense set. That being said it's the most overpowered set in the game so I get why it's included in both your setups (and my spell damage one as well).

Alchimiste1

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Yeah, lets put a cooldown on offering!?
Maybe ramping cost to shadowy too?!

I am perfectly OK with a rampant cost on cloak. In fact, I have advocated for such a change in the past.
You do understand Im not saying put a cooldown on being able to cast ward, right? just the secondary burst heal that's attached to it.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die.

1) you spent pages and pages telling us that 1v1 doesn't matter then showed us a dueling video

2) said video has "broken mag sorc" in the title and shows Jensen easily beating players he previously traded with

3) everything else has already been said

IncultaWolf

I have been face tanking dragonknights on my 28k hp magsorc. Yes the shields are overtuned.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die.

1) you spent pages and pages telling us that 1v1 doesn't matter then showed us a dueling video

2) said video has "broken mag sorc" in the title and shows Jensen easily beating players he previously traded with

3) everything else has already been said

1 Yes I don't think 1v1 matters in the bigger context of the target audience for ESO these days but it's more useful in showing that the class does die which is what people were saying didn't happen in a 1v1. Something can be irrelevant in one context and relevant in another.

2 I'm pretty sure the title was part truth and part joke when you read the description. Yes he seems to have won more than previously but in the notes he states that he lost a good amount of matches as well. So yeah very strong but not unkillable

HowlKimchi

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The archetype I see most commonly used is something like Chudan/Alfiq/Wretched/DDF or Roksa/Alfiq/Rallying/DDF. There are probably better sets than Alfiq but it's convenient and does the job for the average player. This archetype can be tuned a variety of ways and is more than capable of dealing threatening levels of ranged damage (was seeing 11k Overloads from this sort of Sorc yesterday) while face tanking multiples thanks to one single spammable skill.

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

Ehhhh here's the thing though, a skill slot is a skill slot, you still need a couple of skill slots to make ward work.

I think it's worth pointing out that you just need to hit 1 skill and that's your complete defensive rotation already. AND it's on the front bar. The other skill slots you're mentioning (magelight on the same bar as the ward, and aegis on any bar) are just passive skills that don't need a cooldown to be wasted on them.

That does wonders for keeping up pressure or mobility if you only have to spend 1 cooldown for your defensive rotation. The other end of the spectrum are magcros who have to hit like 3/4 skills for their defensive rotation. That's a difference of two cooldowns. When the magcro and magsorc do a defensive rotation at the same time, the sorc has already casted curse and ele sus on the cro by the time the cro finishes casting his burst heal into ghost into vigor.

Of course, that's a 1v1 example. In a 1vX context, you can ward into dodgeroll, and then you have enough breathing room to streak through the crowd, or LOS, frag down the 20k hp archer at the back.

Honestly, I'm using a sorc now and it's been a blast because of how easy it is to survive and get kills. Sorc was my first class before I moved to magblades some x years ago and it's probably a case of "the grass is greener on the other side" but I do feel much stronger with my sorc which I haven't even theorycrafted and min/maxed as much as my magblade. Bar space is a problem though. I don't like having to run chudan but it seems the most optimal to have a slot for aegis ward.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die.

1) you spent pages and pages telling us that 1v1 doesn't matter then showed us a dueling video

2) said video has "broken mag sorc" in the title and shows Jensen easily beating players he previously traded with

3) everything else has already been said

HTM puts "INSANE", "BROKEN", "GODLIKE" and "UNKILLABLE" in all of his video titles as well, even for necro, of which he made a video about, barely a week ago, that then goes on to show him soloing vet DLC dungeons, DLC world bosses, etc. By the logic of your point 2) that means that Necro is broken as well. Please try and just stick to the actual discussion instead of trying to bait and switch things up with stupid gotcha attempts.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The archetype I see most commonly used is something like Chudan/Alfiq/Wretched/DDF or Roksa/Alfiq/Rallying/DDF. There are probably better sets than Alfiq but it's convenient and does the job for the average player. This archetype can be tuned a variety of ways and is more than capable of dealing threatening levels of ranged damage (was seeing 11k Overloads from this sort of Sorc yesterday) while face tanking multiples thanks to one single spammable skill.

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

Ehhhh here's the thing though, a skill slot is a skill slot, you still need a couple of skill slots to make ward work. I don't want to mess around with editor but I do wonder if you just built each class to whatever spec would be considered usable and only put the heal on the bar how ward would compare to the others. So if Vigor in a slot makes a heal work and I have to use aegis and inner light to make my heal work then we're both giving up slots.

Edit,

I do see the GCD issue though I would argue that you can't just look at the healing that a class does to identify how that class is or isn't strong when everything else is taken into account.

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die. So if what we're calling unkillable is just actually hard to kill I'm still pointing my finger at other classes that the same can be said of and asking what about these guys?

You do realize that other classes can still be killed in 2 ways right? Pressure and burst. MagSorc with 50k+ mag can only be killed in 1 way, which is having enough burst to 100-0 them in 1 GCD.

So I don't think you're making a fair argument about other classes, especially when I've stated multiple times in this thread that magSorc is tanking up to 9k DPS, which will kill literally every other class.

So imagine fighting a class that only has 1 sure way of killing. Don't you think good players on that class already know that? Don't you think they aren't going to block cast more, keep shield up more, etc. to prevent you from 1-shotting them? That's what we've been trying to tell you and other people who are defending Ward.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die.

1) you spent pages and pages telling us that 1v1 doesn't matter then showed us a dueling video

2) said video has "broken mag sorc" in the title and shows Jensen easily beating players he previously traded with

3) everything else has already been said

1 Yes I don't think 1v1 matters in the bigger context of the target audience for ESO these days but it's more useful in showing that the class does die which is what people were saying didn't happen in a 1v1. Something can be irrelevant in one context and relevant in another.

2 I'm pretty sure the title was part truth and part joke when you read the description. Yes he seems to have won more than previously but in the notes he states that he lost a good amount of matches as well. So yeah very strong but not unkillable

1) It's also useful in showing that the class doesn't die in the hands of an already good player, and increases the survivability of an average player to a greater extent.

2) He's not as good of a magsorc as other magsorc mains, like @MetallicMonk. Monk would have been unkillable in that same build because he has better mechanics.

Other people here, like @IncultaWolf, who mains necro, hopped on a Sorc recently and was tanking several people by himself in BGs, where you can't even use Bastion CP.

So I'm pretty sure there's more than enough evidence to tell you this ability needs adjustment. All other arguments favoring this skill just don't seem that convincing to me. Yes, we all know other classes can also survive really well, but they have opportunity costs and GCD problems. This class just does it with 1 skill.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is what most people defending Ward don't get.

They don't seem to get PvP dps numbers, GCDs, bar slots, or the concept of opportunity cost in general.

I don't think it's worth trying to explain, but it's definitely worth continuing to post evidence of how broken Ward is.

Unfortunately I don't think they do either. I remember 1-2 people here shrugging off tanking 6k DPS like it's a normal thing lol. I don't think people understand how much 6k DPS is in a PvP setting. That amount of DPS will kill pretty much everybody here unless they purposely build to face tank that kind of damage, and it's only achievable on a few classes that are inherently tanky.

GCDs and opportunity cost is also a huge factor too. Why NB is so effective with their offensive rotation is due to Merciless Resolve hitting so hard it replaces 2 burst skills on another class, and Major Resolve being a passive. That's 2 GCDs freed up to spam more Concealed Weapon, which also translates to better DPS over the course of a longer fight.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There was a chart at one point around peak Oakensoul that really demonstrated how the opportunity cost of not having to buff made a cyclical impact. Yet somehow then, people still would focus on peak numbers that will just support their argument rather than look at the entire picture. I doubt it will change here

Yea, not having to keep up buffs is a huge thing. Most builds will have several buffs to keep up, like Major Resolve, Major Brutality, Minor Resolve, etc. Having them all become a passive is huge, as it allows the player to spend all those GCDs to being offensive or defensive. It's the same reason why classes with Major/Minor buffs as a slotted passive are much more efficient than classes without.

Case in point: A Warden with Minor Berserk when slotting Bird of Prey and Major + Minor Breach has a much more efficient offensive rotation than say, a Sorc with Minor Berserk when activating Dark Conversion and Major Breach when activating Ele Sus. That's 2 GCDs already wasted to apply a buff/debuff. The Warden has already used 2 spammables with Deep Fissure about to go off by the time the Sorc applies Curse.

Bushido2513

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The archetype I see most commonly used is something like Chudan/Alfiq/Wretched/DDF or Roksa/Alfiq/Rallying/DDF. There are probably better sets than Alfiq but it's convenient and does the job for the average player. This archetype can be tuned a variety of ways and is more than capable of dealing threatening levels of ranged damage (was seeing 11k Overloads from this sort of Sorc yesterday) while face tanking multiples thanks to one single spammable skill.

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

Ehhhh here's the thing though, a skill slot is a skill slot, you still need a couple of skill slots to make ward work.

I think it's worth pointing out that you just need to hit 1 skill and that's your complete defensive rotation already. AND it's on the front bar. The other skill slots you're mentioning (magelight on the same bar as the ward, and aegis on any bar) are just passive skills that don't need a cooldown to be wasted on them.

That does wonders for keeping up pressure or mobility if you only have to spend 1 cooldown for your defensive rotation. The other end of the spectrum are magcros who have to hit like 3/4 skills for their defensive rotation. That's a difference of two cooldowns. When the magcro and magsorc do a defensive rotation at the same time, the sorc has already casted curse and ele sus on the cro by the time the cro finishes casting his burst heal into ghost into vigor.

Of course, that's a 1v1 example. In a 1vX context, you can ward into dodgeroll, and then you have enough breathing room to streak through the crowd, or LOS, frag down the 20k hp archer at the back.

Honestly, I'm using a sorc now and it's been a blast because of how easy it is to survive and get kills. Sorc was my first class before I moved to magblades some x years ago and it's probably a case of "the grass is greener on the other side" but I do feel much stronger with my sorc which I haven't even theorycrafted and min/maxed as much as my magblade. Bar space is a problem though. I don't like having to run chudan but it seems the most optimal to have a slot for aegis ward.

You're correct that there is a GCD advantage there in terms of healing though I'm not sure I could say the same on damage. Also sometimes I think it's easy to assume or feel that everyone will run the meta but that's not always true. I myself don't plan to run it even if it is more powerful that the build I'll be using being that being off meta and still effective is a challenge I still enjoy about the game. There will also still be bad sorcs, people that don't know how to build a sorc in most exploitative way, people who just don't enjoy sorc gameplay, etc.

I've seen some people do the most admirable things on other classes that I just either don't have the interest in or the ability to master easily. Again, not saying the ward isn't very strong, just not sure it's going to be a big deal over time. Fun for now though!

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The archetype I see most commonly used is something like Chudan/Alfiq/Wretched/DDF or Roksa/Alfiq/Rallying/DDF. There are probably better sets than Alfiq but it's convenient and does the job for the average player. This archetype can be tuned a variety of ways and is more than capable of dealing threatening levels of ranged damage (was seeing 11k Overloads from this sort of Sorc yesterday) while face tanking multiples thanks to one single spammable skill.

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

Ehhhh here's the thing though, a skill slot is a skill slot, you still need a couple of skill slots to make ward work. I don't want to mess around with editor but I do wonder if you just built each class to whatever spec would be considered usable and only put the heal on the bar how ward would compare to the others. So if Vigor in a slot makes a heal work and I have to use aegis and inner light to make my heal work then we're both giving up slots.

Edit,

I do see the GCD issue though I would argue that you can't just look at the healing that a class does to identify how that class is or isn't strong when everything else is taken into account.

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die. So if what we're calling unkillable is just actually hard to kill I'm still pointing my finger at other classes that the same can be said of and asking what about these guys?

You do realize that other classes can still be killed in 2 ways right? Pressure and burst. MagSorc with 50k+ mag can only be killed in 1 way, which is having enough burst to 100-0 them in 1 GCD.

So I don't think you're making a fair argument about other classes, especially when I've stated multiple times in this thread that magSorc is tanking up to 9k DPS, which will kill literally every other class.

So imagine fighting a class that only has 1 sure way of killing. Don't you think good players on that class already know that? Don't you think they aren't going to block cast more, keep shield up more, etc. to prevent you from 1-shotting them? That's what we've been trying to tell you and other people who are defending Ward.

So in this game we've always had the thing where a good player can take something common or op and do crazy things with it. But all players aren't good players and all players don't always run best in slot. Also too generally speaking everyone just gangs up on targets as needed so while what you're saying could apply to 1v1 I'd say it's not going to be as much of a problem in gvg, Arcanist would be my example of that.

I mean honestly that's a lot of the fight that I have with Arcanist, fought one today or last night for like 10 minutes or so. Usually I just move on because I know better but for some reason I engaged and had to see it through. I did eventually kill him but more so due to luck of timing and resource exhaustion and probably that person just getting tired and making a mistake.

Ok so you keep bringing up raw numbers and that's not what a fight is. I mean for sure it's a metric but it's not the whole story of the fight. Again I'm not saying ward isn't strong or that some people that know how aren't abusing it. I believe both of those things are true, I just believe that other classes can keep up with it as a whole and we've seen it in the reports here. People have said they are harder to kill but as long as I have problems killing other classes I think that's somewhat fair.

My biggest point is that we can't take the most optimal configuration and assume that's what every single player will use. Honestly if they did I think you'll see an even faster drop off of sorc activity. People will have fun with it for a bit but I bet you'll see people going back to their favorite class or just another class to switch it up.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

To my point I'll cite that HeyJensen video and his comments which show that sorcs still can die.

1) you spent pages and pages telling us that 1v1 doesn't matter then showed us a dueling video

2) said video has "broken mag sorc" in the title and shows Jensen easily beating players he previously traded with

3) everything else has already been said

1 Yes I don't think 1v1 matters in the bigger context of the target audience for ESO these days but it's more useful in showing that the class does die which is what people were saying didn't happen in a 1v1. Something can be irrelevant in one context and relevant in another.

2 I'm pretty sure the title was part truth and part joke when you read the description. Yes he seems to have won more than previously but in the notes he states that he lost a good amount of matches as well. So yeah very strong but not unkillable

1) It's also useful in showing that the class doesn't die in the hands of an already good player, and increases the survivability of an average player to a greater extent.

2) He's not as good of a magsorc as other magsorc mains, like @MetallicMonk. Monk would have been unkillable in that same build because he has better mechanics.

Other people here, like @IncultaWolf, who mains necro, hopped on a Sorc recently and was tanking several people by himself in BGs, where you can't even use Bastion CP.

So I'm pretty sure there's more than enough evidence to tell you this ability needs adjustment. All other arguments favoring this skill just don't seem that convincing to me. Yes, we all know other classes can also survive really well, but they have opportunity costs and GCD problems. This class just does it with 1 skill.

Well yes you will have our outliers but we have to think of the change in the bigger picture of understanding how many mediocre players are still out there that will die to better players. Yes they will live a little longer but they won't be unkillable at all. Likewise some will be unkillable while killing several. Still it as we all know, there are more mediocre or bad players out there than phenomenal players by far. Sometimes I meet arcanist that I can pretty much two tap even though it's one of the easiest classes to tank up on.

So yes if everyone was for example intermediate players with sorc that knew to copy and past on the best in slot build then yes I'd probably be more concerned about things. But I've also literally watched people get tired of being only able to play one op build. I think it's the hot topic right now but that it'll die down and I would totally be ok with a very slight adjustment to the heal

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok so you keep bringing up raw numbers and that's not what a fight is. I mean for sure it's a metric but it's not the whole story of the fight.

But it is. This is why I said some of you don't understand what PvP DPS means. See, you play from console, and there aren't addons like CMX that record information of an entire fight, so I understand why you undermine this aspect of PvP.

9k DPS in a PvP fight is HUGE. I cannot stress this enough. You typically see this number in these scenarios:

1) You get 1-shotted in 3 seconds from the time the fight starts
2) You get parsed by a PvEr

The typical high pressure builds you see in PvP, like mDW/Vate/Maarselok, or Asylum/Relequen/Kjalnar, don't do 9k DPS. At best, they do 6.5k - 7k, and that's really pushing it (no defense, full damage). Most of you won't survive for 20 seconds against those builds.

So when I said a max mag Sorc can face tank 9k DPS with 1 skill, I'm not joking. It's doing that with 1 ability too.

So before we can have an objective discussion, you guys need to understand this first.

Zabagad

Just for your information - I cannot upload pics as well - forum seems to struggle since 2 days...

StaticWave wrote: »

especially when I've stated multiple times in this thread that magSorc is tanking up to 9k DPS, which will kill literally every other class.

StaticWave wrote:

9k DPS in a PvP fight is HUGE. I cannot stress this enough.

As you already know - I'm struggeling with this HPS argument a lot.
I miss always the other side (who is doing that damage) and how much damage this build is doing.

But even more - what is HPS in CMX? I'm not sure - is overhealing includet? I don't think so.
And then HPS would be only big, if enough health has lost.

Next point is - resistence.
If somebody has 50K resistence and the sorc has 16K and both use a vigor with the same tooltip - would the HPS be the same? I don't think so.

As I said - I'm not sure - I trust your experience and I ask!

Anyway
I guess enough ppl came to the conclusion Hardened Ward is to strong.
I accept this as a medium sorc who couldn't test it on the PTS for PvP (Cyro was empty and I don't do duells) - but I had the same feeling during my PvE tests where I always do WBs and dragons in southern elsweyr.
Now on live I'm much stronger in Cyro for sure - but honestly I can't judge if I'm now more in the right spot, because before I had many fights were I had the feeling, that I was clearly better, but could be happy to survive without any chance to win against some builds.
And in addition I changed a lot to my U40 build and can't say how much is coming from the ward, how much from the new bound - how much, because I stack mag and not health - how much, because I play different mystic.....

back to Anyway

My biggest concern is now, that ZOS is not doing crazzy swings like they always do.
Any chance that we all - try to find a healthy change and stop talking about other classes OP as well?
Even NBs are calling us OP now and I'm tired of reading and discussing this.
I guess the rumours will increase and the chance that ZOS is otherwise doing overnerfs.

So - let's stop this senseless back and forth and look for a solution in the right spot. MAYBE ZOS will listen and not doing their own overnerf....?

So far I can remember these suggestions:

- Make a HoT
- Make a shield only if you have X% health and make a heal instead if below Y%
- Make a "every X seconds condition on the heal"
- sure there were more - would be nice if we put all together

My own idea is I guess a bit like the second one - but not floating and more static:
Increse U40 ward by 10% (of the U41 max resource clause) and add the remaining 5% as the heal.
Or make 7% each or whatever values you would think make sence.

I know - the chance that ZOS will listen to feedback is low, but I would like to get an end of the actual discussion - it's senseless in my opinion.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Please try and just stick to the actual discussion instead of trying to bait and switch things up with stupid gotcha attempts.

The video contradicts Bushido's own point and instead is further evidence of Ward's disproportionate impact on sorc performance. I'm familiar with fighting Jensen. Either he's been training in the hyperbolic time chamber, or there's been a massive buff to his main class that has him suddenly destroying players he used to be on even ground with.

Being punished for mistakes in his losses does not prove anything about Ward. Everything requires skill. Nobody is saying Ward makes you a literally unkillable god sorc. Look again at the fights where he used it properly against equal skill players (on other classes or specs) who he would normally trade with. The fights are no longer even close.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok so you keep bringing up raw numbers and that's not what a fight is. I mean for sure it's a metric but it's not the whole story of the fight.

But it is. This is why I said some of you don't understand what PvP DPS means. See, you play from console, and there aren't addons like CMX that record information of an entire fight, so I understand why you undermine this aspect of PvP.

9k DPS in a PvP fight is HUGE. I cannot stress this enough. You typically see this number in these scenarios:

1) You get 1-shotted in 3 seconds from the time the fight starts
2) You get parsed by a PvEr

The typical high pressure builds you see in PvP, like mDW/Vate/Maarselok, or Asylum/Relequen/Kjalnar, don't do 9k DPS. At best, they do 6.5k - 7k, and that's really pushing it (no defense, full damage). Most of you won't survive for 20 seconds against those builds.

So when I said a max mag Sorc can face tank 9k DPS with 1 skill, I'm not joking. It's doing that with 1 ability too.

So before we can have an objective discussion, you guys need to understand this first.

So I see your point about how this matters. Also I see that you're stressing the point that this is because of changes to one skill, there is no debate that's clear.

So I don't have cmx or anything like that to go off of but I can go off my years of in-game experience.

Yes you can say hey it's being done with one skill and I get that but generally speaking for me it's the same net result as when I fight other classes I can't kill and who can't kill me. Yes the player on the other side may be using more gcds to achieve the same effect but honestly I won't see that exactly, I'll just see this person who I can't kill and who can't kill me. Now I've been in that place many times and generally you walk away or wait till your or their faction comes along to play tie breaker.

By your math this build can tank a lot of damage and will do a good amount of damage. For me this was a lot of fights with Procanist which is probably why I look at this as not too big a deal.

But ok I think I really see where we diverge and I respect where you are coming from. For me since I don't duel this issue doesn't affect me and since I'm happy to walk away from a fight or wait till the numbers are on my side if the enemy is that tanky then I'm also not bothered. Also most damage from one person can't kill me or at least I can get away most times so even if there were multiple sorcs with high damage ranged attacks I stand a good chance of escaping. This change will actually make sure of that to some degree.

These are just practices I developed over time with how the game has gone farther and farther off track so that I'm not ever too bothered by changes.

From where you're coming from I can totally see how this would be an issue. Honestly since it wouldn't affect me either way I hope you get the changes you're looking for but I've also can personally say that what you're describing doesn't seem too bad to me given the state of the game.

But I'm also the same guy that would probably take this as a challenge to create a high health Warden with sword and board ult and ice shield just to see how it would work against a bunch of sorcs.

So maybe it's just that I'm letting the game be what it is and looking for the fun in that while also not always being concerned about that competitive aspect which has been ruined for a longgggg time now.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Please try and just stick to the actual discussion instead of trying to bait and switch things up with stupid gotcha attempts.

The video contradicts Bushido's own point and instead is further evidence of Ward's disproportionate impact on sorc performance. I'm familiar with fighting Jensen. Either he's been training in the hyperbolic time chamber, or there's been a massive buff to his main class that has him suddenly destroying players he used to be on even ground with.

Being punished for mistakes in his losses does not prove anything about Ward. Everything requires skill. Nobody is saying Ward makes you a literally unkillable god sorc. Look again at the fights where he used it properly against equal skill players (on other classes or specs) who he would normally trade with. The fights are no longer even close.

Well I have multiple points but overall I'm saying that I think in gvg which is to me the most intended pvp experience that this change is strong but not too far out of line with what others are doing, again when considered in gvg not 1v1.

That point is separate from what was shown in the video which was not gvg content but was still interesting in evaluating 1v1 which is what others have talked about a lot here. So what you're seeing is me taking about two different aspects of pvp with the latter being brought up because others are bringing it up. But yes I can talk about something in one context while it's not exactly relevant to the other context.

This isn't an easy subject for these exact reasons. Different people are going to care about different aspects that are affected by this change. While we can't please everyone, we can have discussions about how we feel the change is or isn't good relative to our perspectives.

So fine nobody is saying literally unkillable but it is strong and the conversation is then about is it too strong and if so by how much.

That's where different types of pvp come in. In dueling it's at its strongest so I see why people feel a kind of way about that. In gvg open world people are still saying it's strong but I also haven't heard as much feedback as I'd like just yet but that's just my preference.

I'm ok if it gets nerfed, I've just been saying there are a few burst heal scenarios that exist that need to be looked at as well at the same time.

Why start with one class instead of looking at them all?

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why start with one class instead of looking at them all?

1) this is a thread about sorcs

2) the devs appropriately nerf outliers before they rework entire systems

3) it has been explained to you more than enough why Ward is a severe outlier

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why start with one class instead of looking at them all?

1) this is a thread about sorcs

2) the devs appropriately nerf outliers before they rework entire systems

3) it has been explained to you more than enough why Ward is a severe outlier

Point 1 and 3 are fair point 2 is questionable because they have reworked entire systems which resulted in a nerfs in the name of standardization. Also and more importantly, they do whatever they like so asking for anything has just as much chance as asking for one thing so I figure why not go for the whole thing

I'm ok with an adjustment on ward that puts it in line with the tankiness of other classes for sure. Get me to Arcanist levels and I'll be just fine

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why start with one class instead of looking at them all?

1) this is a thread about sorcs

2) the devs appropriately nerf outliers before they rework entire systems

3) it has been explained to you more than enough why Ward is a severe outlier

Point 1 and 3 are fair point 2 is questionable because they have reworked entire systems which resulted in a nerfs in the name of standardization. Also and more importantly, they do whatever they like so asking for anything has just as much chance as asking for one thing so I figure why not go for the whole thing

I'm ok with an adjustment on ward that puts it in line with the tankiness of other classes for sure. Get me to Arcanist levels and I'll be just fine

now why would they do that when arcanist has nowhere near the offensive kit that magsorc does ?

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why start with one class instead of looking at them all?

1) this is a thread about sorcs

2) the devs appropriately nerf outliers before they rework entire systems

3) it has been explained to you more than enough why Ward is a severe outlier

Point 1 and 3 are fair point 2 is questionable because they have reworked entire systems which resulted in a nerfs in the name of standardization. Also and more importantly, they do whatever they like so asking for anything has just as much chance as asking for one thing so I figure why not go for the whole thing

I'm ok with an adjustment on ward that puts it in line with the tankiness of other classes for sure. Get me to Arcanist levels and I'll be just fine

now why would they do that when arcanist has nowhere near the offensive kit that magsorc does ?

That's actually a good point as I haven't seen how Arcanist is doing post masters change. That being said I've seen some Arcanist with good damage via procs and I'm not discounting their ability to get kills even if it's just because of procs and their ability to efficiently drain your stam.

But ok back away from Arcanist and I'll take really any level of healing that achieves the same level of recovery other classes are enjoying at the moment.

Again you should know I'm taking this from the perspective of this being the buff we're getting after a long time vs what we asked for so I'm just going to make the most of it but no I'm not looking for it to be op in the sense that it's too easy to play and less rewarding.

Also this is in light of the sorc hit and run argument being only so valid these days. You can take the heal back right now if everyone can stop having easy access to movement speed. But since that's not happening I think the ability to take a beating being a little easier sounds fair.

Alchimiste1

yeah, but other class don't have the mobility or the innate damage that msorc has. It doesn't make sense (in terms of balance) to allow them to be as tanky or say have a burst heal as strong as polar/healthy/coag. Msorc had been a hard class to play but I don't think its actually been bad.

J18696

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

yeah, but other class don't have the mobility or the innate damage that msorc has. It doesn't make sense (in terms of balance) to allow them to be as tanky or say have a burst heal as strong as polar/healthy/coag. Msorc had been a hard class to play but I don't think its actually been bad.

This sums up alot of my major issues with ward in its current state sorc has some of the best dmg in the game and mobility and we just gave it potentially the strongest single defensive ability in the game ontop of it all that also scales off the classes own offence

Players with a high technical skill level and good understanding of mechanics essentially have no weaknesses on this class now if played at a high level

TechMaybeHic

Oddly enough, when I see sorcs die, its usually because they are trying to streak around over keep their shield heal going

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

yeah, but other class don't have the mobility or the innate damage that msorc has. It doesn't make sense (in terms of balance) to allow them to be as tanky or say have a burst heal as strong as polar/healthy/coag. Msorc had been a hard class to play but I don't think its actually been bad.

No it's not a bad class at all, I really enjoy it to be honest because it is technical.

Seriously though if other classes lack mobility how do they keep catching up to me even after multiple streaks and when I have movement speed of my own?

I'll give you ranged damage potential but I'd also trade the heal for being a true king of movement speed again.

hesobad

Mag sorc was completely fine without the heal, adding the heal is so remarkably stupid. ZOS devs are so lost when it comes to PvP balance

Bushido2513

J18696 wrote: »

Players with a high technical skill level and good understanding of mechanics essentially have no weaknesses on this class now if played at a high level

Wait is this a NB thread now?

Jokes aside I do agree this changes a lot at a high level but also what percentage of players really operate at that level? Probably way more mediocre sorcs enjoying the buff to be honest and they might more so need it though I do agree the values need a slight tweak