Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

He could, and people could, but not in a full damage build. That's the big difference. Other classes would have to sacrifice major damage to heal through that kind of DPS. Sorc doesn't need to with Hardened Ward buff because the higher you stack max mag, the bigger the shield and heal, and also your damage. An 8-9k DPS build will have a ton of DoTs, which normal heals won't be able to heal through, but Hardened Ward can.

Accepted - but that's what I mean with "that value alone" is not the hole picture.
We have to see how much damage he is doing while having 6,2K HPS. BTW you were able to outheal his damage - I guess without ward? Not sure...

StaticWave wrote: »

Right, that was my original request, but I have changed my opinion on that after testing further on the live server with lower max mag builds.

ok - accepted as well

StaticWave wrote: »

HPS will honestly not change that much

Thats what I try to point out

StaticWave wrote: »

1) The Sorc will have to cast several wards until the HoT brings him out of execute range, which means more sustain is needed, which will prevent the Sorc from constantly doing 5k DPS without trying, and that's happening right now lol.

2) Spamming ward while waiting for the HoT to bring him out of execute range means the Sorc needs to play more carefully instead of tanking the damage and then getting a free out of jail card with Ward. There's actual counterplay and rewards good Sorcs with higher shield uptime

I'm totally fine with that!

I just don't want to go healthSorc again - it's so much more fun as magSorc and I don't want that this will ruined again...
So - if they want to nerf it - go for a HoT pls

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

My friend tanked 6.2k DPS in a 6 minute 20s duel vs my maximum damage build, and still didn't break a sweat:

My damage:



His healing per second:



This was done with no Vigor on his part, and only 52k max mag. Shield is fine right?

Ok so I want to keep an open mind here and your point looks interesting.

Do you have for comparison what it looks like when you're fighting another class and how much they can tank or their healing per second?

And I'm speaking with say a maxed out build on the other class to the same tune as your friend. I'm not asking you to convince me but if you're going to present an example I wouldn't mind some context. And I believe you keep a lot of this data around so maybe it would help to see actual numbers on how far from the norm of each or a few of the classes this change is.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

We hate stalemate right? Why give Sorc special treatment because it hasn't gotten buffs? Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Stalemate is an issue yes and the specific interaction of ward + battle spirit + scaling off max mag with a health cap only has its own thing to be sorted.
But to counter your question about why should we give sorc special treatment:
Why should we specifically target sorcs temporary health ability and not any of the other classes temporary health abilities?

If we are to tone down hardened ward such that it has a total "temporary health" capacity of say 12k in PvP, then why are we also not asking for the same thing to be done with offering, coag, HtD, Polar, RF, etc.

Why single out sorc only for finally catching up to what the other classes have been given as defensive/healing/temporary health tools and try to put sorc down again without also putting down all the other broken overtuned heals that are currently in the game and giving us our current tank/stalemate meta.

Even at 39k max mag, I am still extremely tanky because of the burst heal on Ward combined with Vigor, Surge, and Blood Magic procs. The solution would be to either turn the burst heal into a HoT over 4-5 seconds, or reducing the burst heal value to 5% of max mag.

Taking your example of a 39k mag sorc with ward + vigor + surge + blood magic, that would net equivalent healing that other classes have such as:
- a 35k health warden with polar (not complete max health stacked but more than minimum 30k) + vines + lotus (excluding vigor)
- a NB with siphoning (passive component only) + offering + refreshing path (excluding vigor)
- a DK with ash cloud + coag + cauterize (excluding vigor/battle roar)
- a plar with ritual + HtD + rune + bubble
- a necro with RF + mender + vigor + scythe
- an Arc with runespite + runemend + runic defense (which is a massive heal that rivals max health polars that is on a 20 second set and forget timer that heals you automatically should you fall below 50% within that 20s duration).

All of these healing combinations the other classes have, all have their own benefits just like the sorc combo in your example:
- Sorc gets major brutality/sorcery + healing on damage + temporary bonus health
- Warden gets a bonus passive HoT on a heal that scales much higher than what I have listed + major prophecy/savagery burst heal on end (vines) + 10% max health
- NB gets passive and block-castable instant sustain + healing on damage (easier to proc than sorc) + a lot of free movement speed + ulti gen
- DK gets what is essentially a 15s set and forget periodic burst heal + execute scaling healing + double bar major prophecy/savagery + the biggest snare in the game (70%) + stam return
- Plar gets cleanse + sustain + armor buff + 40% snare
- Necro gets bonus resistances + unique mitigation
- Arc gets what is arguably one of the best set and forget burst heals in the game that also immobilizes enemies or grants CC immunity, generates crux (that buffs their whole kit) + grants a HoT or generates ultimate

This is unmorphed with only 30k health, on a health scaling heal, Arc typically sits at 40k+ as base

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Evasiveness is not a good enough reason to keep sorcs temporary health (i.e. healing/shielding) abilities below the other classes anymore.

Any class can run vamp (in fact this is encouraged/mandatory with current undeath iteration) and slot mist form (blood mist is also another 20s DoT/HoT fyi combining mobility + healing + damage + vamp passives into 1 bar slot) or slot RaT or any of the many, easily accessible and globally available, movement speed options in the game currently to be able to teleport or sprint around with very high mobility and evasiveness.

1v1's are also not a good indicator of precisely how strong in the overall state of the game something is unless it literally 1 shots with 1 button press and nothing else. Every defensive tool is currently overtuned in a 1v1 environment, it's part of the reason for the tank meta we are currently in. 1v1 is good at saying yes, this ability is, in some way, too strong, but that does not say specifically how overtuned it is for every other form of PvP or when compared to what are the functionally equivalent abilities of the other classes.

Polar wardens, Arcanists, cloakblades, coag dks, bubble plars are prime examples of why 1v1 is not the best way to determine just how overpowered something is (as a defensive tool).
1v1 you aren't killing a polar warden unless they go afk and even then they'll probably live long enough to come back and heal up again. You're also not killing a DK or a cloaking NB that actually knows how to do more than just cloak and the only way a plar is dying 1v1 is if a NB straight up one shots them with 120+ ulti crit incap into crit MR.

So far the only real "unkillable" sorcs that I have seen in PvP are players that, quite frankly, would make even current necro look S+ tier if they actually bothered to put time into the bottom classes like necro and even they get killed if there are even a few good players who know what they are doing and have actual damage. 99% of the rest of the sorcs (the majority of the player base) are still very much killable and, quite frankly, fairly easy to kill since they just aren't at that same level of skill. The remaining 1% are typically just tanks that don't really pose much of a threat outside of going afk and can be simply ignored.

dinokstrunz

We all knew this was going to be way too strong. ZoS as usual didn't listen to feedback. Sorc was already in a really strong position prior to U41.

Zabagad

dinokstrunz wrote: »

We all knew this was going to be way too strong. ZoS as usual didn't listen to feedback. Sorc was already in a really strong position prior to U41.

Maybe Proc-Stam/Hybrid melee Sorc but no-pet magSorc not.

Turtle_Bot

lmao this is ridiculous, just watched 2 good players dueling outside nikel for a solid 5 mins, DK vs Sorc, ended in a stalemate, the DK was constantly on the offensive and easily outhealing the sorcs damage. Kiting wasn't an issue for the DK to keep up with either so it's not like the sorc could just evade the DK the whole time and folks keep trying to claim hardened ward is the only overtuned "burst heal" in the game...

Like I said, if we are going to address hardened ward for being too strong and contributing to the tank/stalemate meta, then lets address ALL of the heals/temporary health abilities in the game, since all of them are just as overtuned/obnoxious when built for it.

Major_Toughness

Zabagad wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

We all knew this was going to be way too strong. ZoS as usual didn't listen to feedback. Sorc was already in a really strong position prior to U41.

Maybe Proc-Stam/Hybrid melee Sorc but no-pet magSorc not.

Yes it was.

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Thank you for putting more to the point in exactly what I wanted to get across.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

We hate stalemate right? Why give Sorc special treatment because it hasn't gotten buffs? Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Stalemate is an issue yes and the specific interaction of ward + battle spirit + scaling off max mag with a health cap only has its own thing to be sorted.
But to counter your question about why should we give sorc special treatment:
Why should we specifically target sorcs temporary health ability and not any of the other classes temporary health abilities?

If we are to tone down hardened ward such that it has a total "temporary health" capacity of say 12k in PvP, then why are we also not asking for the same thing to be done with offering, coag, HtD, Polar, RF, etc.

Why single out sorc only for finally catching up to what the other classes have been given as defensive/healing/temporary health tools and try to put sorc down again without also putting down all the other broken overtuned heals that are currently in the game and giving us our current tank/stalemate meta.

Even at 39k max mag, I am still extremely tanky because of the burst heal on Ward combined with Vigor, Surge, and Blood Magic procs. The solution would be to either turn the burst heal into a HoT over 4-5 seconds, or reducing the burst heal value to 5% of max mag.

Taking your example of a 39k mag sorc with ward + vigor + surge + blood magic, that would net equivalent healing that other classes have such as:
- a 35k health warden with polar (not complete max health stacked but more than minimum 30k) + vines + lotus (excluding vigor)
- a NB with siphoning (passive component only) + offering + refreshing path (excluding vigor)
- a DK with ash cloud + coag + cauterize (excluding vigor/battle roar)
- a plar with ritual + HtD + rune + bubble
- a necro with RF + mender + vigor + scythe
- an Arc with runespite + runemend + runic defense (which is a massive heal that rivals max health polars that is on a 20 second set and forget timer that heals you automatically should you fall below 50% within that 20s duration).

All of these healing combinations the other classes have, all have their own benefits just like the sorc combo in your example:
- Sorc gets major brutality/sorcery + healing on damage + temporary bonus health
- Warden gets a bonus passive HoT on a heal that scales much higher than what I have listed + major prophecy/savagery burst heal on end (vines) + 10% max health
- NB gets passive and block-castable instant sustain + healing on damage (easier to proc than sorc) + a lot of free movement speed + ulti gen
- DK gets what is essentially a 15s set and forget periodic burst heal + execute scaling healing + double bar major prophecy/savagery + the biggest snare in the game (70%) + stam return
- Plar gets cleanse + sustain + armor buff + 40% snare
- Necro gets bonus resistances + unique mitigation
- Arc gets what is arguably one of the best set and forget burst heals in the game that also immobilizes enemies or grants CC immunity, generates crux (that buffs their whole kit) + grants a HoT or generates ultimate

This is unmorphed with only 30k health, on a health scaling heal, Arc typically sits at 40k+ as base

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Evasiveness is not a good enough reason to keep sorcs temporary health (i.e. healing/shielding) abilities below the other classes anymore.

Any class can run vamp (in fact this is encouraged/mandatory with current undeath iteration) and slot mist form (blood mist is also another 20s DoT/HoT fyi combining mobility + healing + damage + vamp passives into 1 bar slot) or slot RaT or any of the many, easily accessible and globally available, movement speed options in the game currently to be able to teleport or sprint around with very high mobility and evasiveness.

1v1's are also not a good indicator of precisely how strong in the overall state of the game something is unless it literally 1 shots with 1 button press and nothing else. Every defensive tool is currently overtuned in a 1v1 environment, it's part of the reason for the tank meta we are currently in. 1v1 is good at saying yes, this ability is, in some way, too strong, but that does not say specifically how overtuned it is for every other form of PvP or when compared to what are the functionally equivalent abilities of the other classes.

Polar wardens, Arcanists, cloakblades, coag dks, bubble plars are prime examples of why 1v1 is not the best way to determine just how overpowered something is (as a defensive tool).
1v1 you aren't killing a polar warden unless they go afk and even then they'll probably live long enough to come back and heal up again. You're also not killing a DK or a cloaking NB that actually knows how to do more than just cloak and the only way a plar is dying 1v1 is if a NB straight up one shots them with 120+ ulti crit incap into crit MR.

So far the only real "unkillable" sorcs that I have seen in PvP are players that, quite frankly, would make even current necro look S+ tier if they actually bothered to put time into the bottom classes like necro and even they get killed if there are even a few good players who know what they are doing and have actual damage. 99% of the rest of the sorcs (the majority of the player base) are still very much killable and, quite frankly, fairly easy to kill since they just aren't at that same level of skill. The remaining 1% are typically just tanks that don't really pose much of a threat outside of going afk and can be simply ignored.

And they should. I never said other burst heals shouldnt be nerfed lol. I’m not sure why you think otherwise, especially after many of my previous comments talking about NB.

I have a problem with people clearly ignoring how easy it is for mag sorc to stack 50k+ mag, which with Bastion provides a 13.5k shield and an 8k burst heal tooltip.

Why are you using the 30-40k mag argument? Nobody here is gimping themselves by stacking 30-40k mag. Let’s not pretend they aren’t stacking 50k-55k-60k mag. It’s a disingenuous argument to assume people are playing fair on Sorc when they could go the easy route and stack 59k max mag in Crafty/Rally, which btw provides 27k spell resist/24k phys resist, 3k crit resist, 59k mag, and 30k hp. Let’s not pretend people aren’t running that lol.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

We hate stalemate right? Why give Sorc special treatment because it hasn't gotten buffs? Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Stalemate is an issue yes and the specific interaction of ward + battle spirit + scaling off max mag with a health cap only has its own thing to be sorted.
But to counter your question about why should we give sorc special treatment:
Why should we specifically target sorcs temporary health ability and not any of the other classes temporary health abilities?

If we are to tone down hardened ward such that it has a total "temporary health" capacity of say 12k in PvP, then why are we also not asking for the same thing to be done with offering, coag, HtD, Polar, RF, etc.

Why single out sorc only for finally catching up to what the other classes have been given as defensive/healing/temporary health tools and try to put sorc down again without also putting down all the other broken overtuned heals that are currently in the game and giving us our current tank/stalemate meta.

Even at 39k max mag, I am still extremely tanky because of the burst heal on Ward combined with Vigor, Surge, and Blood Magic procs. The solution would be to either turn the burst heal into a HoT over 4-5 seconds, or reducing the burst heal value to 5% of max mag.

Taking your example of a 39k mag sorc with ward + vigor + surge + blood magic, that would net equivalent healing that other classes have such as:
- a 35k health warden with polar (not complete max health stacked but more than minimum 30k) + vines + lotus (excluding vigor)
- a NB with siphoning (passive component only) + offering + refreshing path (excluding vigor)
- a DK with ash cloud + coag + cauterize (excluding vigor/battle roar)
- a plar with ritual + HtD + rune + bubble
- a necro with RF + mender + vigor + scythe
- an Arc with runespite + runemend + runic defense (which is a massive heal that rivals max health polars that is on a 20 second set and forget timer that heals you automatically should you fall below 50% within that 20s duration).

All of these healing combinations the other classes have, all have their own benefits just like the sorc combo in your example:
- Sorc gets major brutality/sorcery + healing on damage + temporary bonus health
- Warden gets a bonus passive HoT on a heal that scales much higher than what I have listed + major prophecy/savagery burst heal on end (vines) + 10% max health
- NB gets passive and block-castable instant sustain + healing on damage (easier to proc than sorc) + a lot of free movement speed + ulti gen
- DK gets what is essentially a 15s set and forget periodic burst heal + execute scaling healing + double bar major prophecy/savagery + the biggest snare in the game (70%) + stam return
- Plar gets cleanse + sustain + armor buff + 40% snare
- Necro gets bonus resistances + unique mitigation
- Arc gets what is arguably one of the best set and forget burst heals in the game that also immobilizes enemies or grants CC immunity, generates crux (that buffs their whole kit) + grants a HoT or generates ultimate

This is unmorphed with only 30k health, on a health scaling heal, Arc typically sits at 40k+ as base

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Evasiveness is not a good enough reason to keep sorcs temporary health (i.e. healing/shielding) abilities below the other classes anymore.

Any class can run vamp (in fact this is encouraged/mandatory with current undeath iteration) and slot mist form (blood mist is also another 20s DoT/HoT fyi combining mobility + healing + damage + vamp passives into 1 bar slot) or slot RaT or any of the many, easily accessible and globally available, movement speed options in the game currently to be able to teleport or sprint around with very high mobility and evasiveness.

1v1's are also not a good indicator of precisely how strong in the overall state of the game something is unless it literally 1 shots with 1 button press and nothing else. Every defensive tool is currently overtuned in a 1v1 environment, it's part of the reason for the tank meta we are currently in. 1v1 is good at saying yes, this ability is, in some way, too strong, but that does not say specifically how overtuned it is for every other form of PvP or when compared to what are the functionally equivalent abilities of the other classes.

Polar wardens, Arcanists, cloakblades, coag dks, bubble plars are prime examples of why 1v1 is not the best way to determine just how overpowered something is (as a defensive tool).
1v1 you aren't killing a polar warden unless they go afk and even then they'll probably live long enough to come back and heal up again. You're also not killing a DK or a cloaking NB that actually knows how to do more than just cloak and the only way a plar is dying 1v1 is if a NB straight up one shots them with 120+ ulti crit incap into crit MR.

So far the only real "unkillable" sorcs that I have seen in PvP are players that, quite frankly, would make even current necro look S+ tier if they actually bothered to put time into the bottom classes like necro and even they get killed if there are even a few good players who know what they are doing and have actual damage. 99% of the rest of the sorcs (the majority of the player base) are still very much killable and, quite frankly, fairly easy to kill since they just aren't at that same level of skill. The remaining 1% are typically just tanks that don't really pose much of a threat outside of going afk and can be simply ignored.

And they should. I never said other burst heals shouldnt be nerfed lol. I’m not sure why you think otherwise, especially after many of my previous comments talking about NB.

I have a problem with people clearly ignoring how easy it is for mag sorc to stack 50k+ mag, which with Bastion provides a 13.5k shield and an 8k burst heal tooltip.

Why are you using the 30-40k mag argument? Nobody here is gimping themselves by stacking 30-40k mag. Let’s not pretend they aren’t stacking 50k-55k-60k mag. It’s a disingenuous argument to assume people are playing fair on Sorc when they could go the easy route and stack 59k max mag in Crafty/Rally, which btw provides 27k spell resist/24k phys resist, 3k crit resist, 59k mag, and 30k hp. Let’s not pretend people aren’t running that lol.

But that's the point of what we're saying. Generally speaking nobody is ignoring it. We're not even saying you're going incorrect at all. It just doesn't really matter in the context of the game as a whole while you continue to focus on just one thing in a vacuum.

Nobody can really disagree with you on what sorc is at the moment. Some of us just don't agree that it's all that special when looking at the game as a whole which you have to because otherwise we could then make several micro arguments about this or that but it's just noise at that point and frankly just addressing symptoms of the bigger issues.

Sure be passionate about your thoughts on sorc but maybe acknowledge the reality that this is barely special when you look at the rest of what players are dealing with

One of the reasons I can think of to not acknowledge these things is if you want or feel that this argument needs more weight than it really has and that's ok but don't expect that others won't chime in on the things you aren't talking about that are still just as important to the argument

Jsmalls

@StaticWave @Turtle_Bot

I cannot agree more with what Turtle_Bot said, hence my statement of not 100% broken.

You said you can block cast ward earlier and of course you can, but the first 15k damage from it is a waste of stamina / magicka from blocking because it provides no mitigation yet still drains resources. So sure if you're anticipating 20k damage between block casting it sure blocking might help, but otherwise you're wasting your sustain for nothing. I didn't understand what you said about suppressing DoTs with ward up? Can you clarify, to my knowledge ward takes all damage since the change to make sure status effects procs on shields many moons ago.

Going back to the important stuff.

Let's be consistent. Once again ALL classes healing needs adjustment not just this most recent hardened ward change.

You quoted a Sorc tanking 6.2k DPS but what was their damage output? I think you put most of your 4k dueling hours in many moons ago and dealing with 6k DPS while it is a lot it can EASILY be done as long as you're mainly defensive and likely have less than 2-3k DPS from your side of things.

But you said it shouldn't be able to be done in full damage gear. Which it wasn't.... It was done stacking what did you say 60k~ Magicka? That's not a full damage build. It's not using damage procs, it's not using crit damage, its not stacking crit chance. Stat stacking is the worst multiplier to provide to damage output. That's why so many classes run 25k primary stat and put everything into weapon damage, crit chance, and crit damage because it's better.

And if you have 60k magicka and decent recoveries then your weapon damage is lacking, which means you can't use proc damage sets because they ONLY scale on weapon damage.

At the end of the day I don't disagree that Ward and all other healing is too strong. But sacrifices are being made to hit those max stacks (even putting on crafty is a damage loss because there are better options).

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

We hate stalemate right? Why give Sorc special treatment because it hasn't gotten buffs? Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Stalemate is an issue yes and the specific interaction of ward + battle spirit + scaling off max mag with a health cap only has its own thing to be sorted.
But to counter your question about why should we give sorc special treatment:
Why should we specifically target sorcs temporary health ability and not any of the other classes temporary health abilities?

If we are to tone down hardened ward such that it has a total "temporary health" capacity of say 12k in PvP, then why are we also not asking for the same thing to be done with offering, coag, HtD, Polar, RF, etc.

Why single out sorc only for finally catching up to what the other classes have been given as defensive/healing/temporary health tools and try to put sorc down again without also putting down all the other broken overtuned heals that are currently in the game and giving us our current tank/stalemate meta.

Even at 39k max mag, I am still extremely tanky because of the burst heal on Ward combined with Vigor, Surge, and Blood Magic procs. The solution would be to either turn the burst heal into a HoT over 4-5 seconds, or reducing the burst heal value to 5% of max mag.

Taking your example of a 39k mag sorc with ward + vigor + surge + blood magic, that would net equivalent healing that other classes have such as:
- a 35k health warden with polar (not complete max health stacked but more than minimum 30k) + vines + lotus (excluding vigor)
- a NB with siphoning (passive component only) + offering + refreshing path (excluding vigor)
- a DK with ash cloud + coag + cauterize (excluding vigor/battle roar)
- a plar with ritual + HtD + rune + bubble
- a necro with RF + mender + vigor + scythe
- an Arc with runespite + runemend + runic defense (which is a massive heal that rivals max health polars that is on a 20 second set and forget timer that heals you automatically should you fall below 50% within that 20s duration).

All of these healing combinations the other classes have, all have their own benefits just like the sorc combo in your example:
- Sorc gets major brutality/sorcery + healing on damage + temporary bonus health
- Warden gets a bonus passive HoT on a heal that scales much higher than what I have listed + major prophecy/savagery burst heal on end (vines) + 10% max health
- NB gets passive and block-castable instant sustain + healing on damage (easier to proc than sorc) + a lot of free movement speed + ulti gen
- DK gets what is essentially a 15s set and forget periodic burst heal + execute scaling healing + double bar major prophecy/savagery + the biggest snare in the game (70%) + stam return
- Plar gets cleanse + sustain + armor buff + 40% snare
- Necro gets bonus resistances + unique mitigation
- Arc gets what is arguably one of the best set and forget burst heals in the game that also immobilizes enemies or grants CC immunity, generates crux (that buffs their whole kit) + grants a HoT or generates ultimate

This is unmorphed with only 30k health, on a health scaling heal, Arc typically sits at 40k+ as base

This is why I (and many others) are having an issue with your tunnel vision on Hardened Ward specifically, even though we all actually agree with you that it is overtuned with the right max mag stacking build.

Yes, we agree with you that Hardened ward when max mag stacked to the extreme is an issue, but so are all the other burst heals (and healing in general) in this game when their scaling stats are stacked out the whazoo, hence why we are in the current tank meta that we are in and that tank meta isn't going away anytime soon.

So if we are going to try and get 1 of these abilities nerfed, then ALL OF THEM should be nerfed to the same level and at the same time too. As you said:

Let's keep some consistency here shall we?

Evasiveness is not a good enough reason to keep sorcs temporary health (i.e. healing/shielding) abilities below the other classes anymore.

Any class can run vamp (in fact this is encouraged/mandatory with current undeath iteration) and slot mist form (blood mist is also another 20s DoT/HoT fyi combining mobility + healing + damage + vamp passives into 1 bar slot) or slot RaT or any of the many, easily accessible and globally available, movement speed options in the game currently to be able to teleport or sprint around with very high mobility and evasiveness.

1v1's are also not a good indicator of precisely how strong in the overall state of the game something is unless it literally 1 shots with 1 button press and nothing else. Every defensive tool is currently overtuned in a 1v1 environment, it's part of the reason for the tank meta we are currently in. 1v1 is good at saying yes, this ability is, in some way, too strong, but that does not say specifically how overtuned it is for every other form of PvP or when compared to what are the functionally equivalent abilities of the other classes.

Polar wardens, Arcanists, cloakblades, coag dks, bubble plars are prime examples of why 1v1 is not the best way to determine just how overpowered something is (as a defensive tool).
1v1 you aren't killing a polar warden unless they go afk and even then they'll probably live long enough to come back and heal up again. You're also not killing a DK or a cloaking NB that actually knows how to do more than just cloak and the only way a plar is dying 1v1 is if a NB straight up one shots them with 120+ ulti crit incap into crit MR.

So far the only real "unkillable" sorcs that I have seen in PvP are players that, quite frankly, would make even current necro look S+ tier if they actually bothered to put time into the bottom classes like necro and even they get killed if there are even a few good players who know what they are doing and have actual damage. 99% of the rest of the sorcs (the majority of the player base) are still very much killable and, quite frankly, fairly easy to kill since they just aren't at that same level of skill. The remaining 1% are typically just tanks that don't really pose much of a threat outside of going afk and can be simply ignored.

And they should. I never said other burst heals shouldnt be nerfed lol. I’m not sure why you think otherwise, especially after many of my previous comments talking about NB.

I have a problem with people clearly ignoring how easy it is for mag sorc to stack 50k+ mag, which with Bastion provides a 13.5k shield and an 8k burst heal tooltip.

Why are you using the 30-40k mag argument? Nobody here is gimping themselves by stacking 30-40k mag. Let’s not pretend they aren’t stacking 50k-55k-60k mag. It’s a disingenuous argument to assume people are playing fair on Sorc when they could go the easy route and stack 59k max mag in Crafty/Rally, which btw provides 27k spell resist/24k phys resist, 3k crit resist, 59k mag, and 30k hp. Let’s not pretend people aren’t running that lol.

Why do I bring up the 30-40k mag? It's because I am running such a build that has 39k mag (42k with DDF stacks).

It has just over a 10k shield and an approx 4k heal. That's 14k total which is well within the norm for what a burst heal should be. It's nothing busted, but it works for me. Reworking or reducing the heal/shield will only serve to destroy other build options for magsorc while leaving mag stacking in a still very strong spot because the mag can still be stacked.

Stacking mag being so easy is why I suggested the rework to BA. Make it harder to stack that much max mag and most won't do it, especially if the payoff is also not going to be as good. Reducing potential max mag directly hits that 1 build while allowing it to function at a more reasonable level while not harming other builds

Theignson

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

Bushido2513

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

You said you can block cast ward earlier and of course you can, but the first 15k damage from it is a waste of stamina / magicka from blocking because it provides no mitigation yet still drains resources. So sure if you're anticipating 20k damage between block casting it sure blocking might help, but otherwise you're wasting your sustain for nothing.

@Jsmalls

The first 15k isn't a waste of stamina/magicka though, because you're blocking the stun from an ultimate/offbalance, which is when people set up their burst to 1 shot you. The guy I've been using in the screenshot to demonstrate my point, the only times I've managed to kill him were when he didn't block my Dawnbreaker.

Jsmalls wrote: »

I didn't understand what you said about suppressing DoTs with ward up? Can you clarify, to my knowledge ward takes all damage since the change to make sure status effects procs on shields many moons ago.

It's not suppressing the DoTs. It's acting as a buffer for your burst heal to do the actual work.

Let's say a NB has 2 HoTs, each ticking for 1.5k hp/s for a total of 3k hp/s. He's fighting a DK which stacks 4 DoT instances that tick for 1.5k hp/2s, totaling 6k hp/2s.

Let's say the DK gets the NB to 15% HP, and the NB starts spamming Healthy Offering with a 18k tooltip, which is about 8.5k
non crit and ~14k crit in PvP. The NB's HoTs will be canceled by the DoTs, so his health won't budge. He now has to block cast Healthy Offering and hope for a crit heal. He's also getting hit by LA + Whip, which let's say has a combined value of 10k ( 2k light attack and 8k Whip). Ice staff blocking mitigates ~60% of that, so that's 4k damage when blocked.

So that burst heal of 8.5k tooltip now heals for 4.5k effective HP because 4k of that is canceled by the DK's direct attacks, and the HoTs are also canceled by DoTs. The only way for this NB to go from 15% HP to 100% is if he gets a lucky 14k crit heal, which may or may not happen.

In contrast, Sorc with a 50k mag pool gets a 13k shield and a 3k non crit heal in PvP. It mitigates the 6k ticks of DoTs, leaving 7k worth of shield left. The DK does the same combo, and since shields don't get block mitigation, it will eat the full value of the shield.

If you didn't block cast the shield, you would lose 3k HP because 10k damage - 7k shield = 3k HP lost. But since your burst heal also heals for 3k, you would end up canceling out the combo. If you did block cast, then the block mitigation (since shield is usually on non ice staff/snb weapons) will mitigate 50% of that 3k damage. You end up healing for 1.5k HP because 3k heal - 1.5k dmg = 1.5k heal.

Now the thing is, the NB has 2 HoTs running in combination with Healthy Offering, while the Sorc is only using Ward. I could also include Crit Surge procs, Vigor (if they slot it), and Blood Magic procs (which shield stamsorc uses). Sorc healing WILL outperform NB healing by a large margin if we factor that into the equation.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

Going back to the important stuff.

Let's be consistent. Once again ALL classes healing needs adjustment not just this most recent hardened ward change.

You quoted a Sorc tanking 6.2k DPS but what was their damage output? I think you put most of your 4k dueling hours in many moons ago and dealing with 6k DPS while it is a lot it can EASILY be done as long as you're mainly defensive and likely have less than 2-3k DPS from your side of things.

But you said it shouldn't be able to be done in full damage gear. Which it wasn't.... It was done stacking what did you say 60k~ Magicka? That's not a full damage build. It's not using damage procs, it's not using crit damage, its not stacking crit chance. Stat stacking is the worst multiplier to provide to damage output. That's why so many classes run 25k primary stat and put everything into weapon damage, crit chance, and crit damage because it's better.

And if you have 60k magicka and decent recoveries then your weapon damage is lacking, which means you can't use proc damage sets because they ONLY scale on weapon damage.

At the end of the day I don't disagree that Ward and all other healing is too strong. But sacrifices are being made to hit those max stacks (even putting on crafty is a damage loss because there are better options).

1) My friend did not have 2-3k DPS lol. He did 4.5-5k sustained DPS in a Dizzy Swing, Cfrag, Curse melee build. Numbers were around 10-11k frag, 9k curse, and 8k dizzy. I also have 26k resistance and 3.4k crit resist. I recorded all my fights too, btw.

2) He has not died to a single pressure build yet, which includes my build in the screenshot that can deal up to 6.2k DPS, a Kynmarcher/ET DK, a Relequen bowsorc that did 7k DPS, and a Warden that also did around 6k DPS. All of that done without Rallying Cry or Vigor, just straight shield spamming at 52k max mag.

3) You don't need procs on magsorc. It has plenty of damage

4) You want to stack spell damage? Sure man let's do it. Here you go:






Will you look at that! I got 6.4k spell damage with 50k max mag, 31k HP, 24.7k stam, 1.6k regen of each, ~17-18k pen, 40% crit rate, & 92% crit dmg. Also have 2.9k crit resist, 27k spell resist, 24k phys resist too!

Yea sorry, you can't convince me that this is ok lol.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

And if you have 60k magicka and decent recoveries then your weapon damage is lacking, which means you can't use proc damage sets because they ONLY scale on weapon damage.
.

Want to see something else?




I only got 58.8k max mag, but hey at least I got 6.1k SD and 94% crit dmg right? Sounds really fair right?

StaticWave

While we're at it, why not just slot SSC on it too since we can streak 10 times in a row?




Dang man, 55k mag, 6.7k spell damage, Major Berserk, and a 20k Curse tooltip:



Idk man, this looks "balanced" to me lmaoo

StaticWave

Maybe this will suit you better since Clever Alc has a lower uptime:





56k max mag and 6.1k spell dmg, with 2.2k mag recovery, 1.3k stam recovery, and a good resists for a light armor build just because we can!

Want a proc build too? Sure thing!




51.7k mag, 26.6k stam, 6.1k wd, less sustain required since we run stam spammable, and 30k hp in mDW/Vate/Rally build.

I'm sorry but this is a joke lol. I can use any build right now and still get 50k+ mag and high spell damage.

KlauthWarthog

This game is broken beyond repair.

Theignson

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

StaticWave

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

They’ll just say “Sorc is now on par with other classes” lol..

I know for a fact if you had hopped on another class with the same level of experience as you have on Sorc, you would’ve died instantly.

Sorc is better than other classes right now. It’s the new NB.

Bushido2513

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

Thanks for the details, I'm still waiting to see how this all shakes out but for now it looks like it's very strong indeed. Though I now wonder how many of those kills were sorcs?

If you're getting kills but not killing any sorcs that's kind of interesting!

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

They’ll just say “Sorc is now on par with other classes” lol..

I know for a fact if you had hopped on another class with the same level of experience as you have on Sorc, you would’ve died instantly.

Sorc is better than other classes right now. It’s the new NB.

Actually this depends on other factors. Some people are just naturally better with certain classes even if they don't have the experience.

NB is very powerful and I'm an experienced player but I'm mediocre or less most of the time on NB because I don't enjoy playing it.

So when you say another class it would really depend on the build, how inclined someone is to a class and what kind of people they are fighting/ fighting around.

So is sorc better than other classes?

Yes of course it is because every class is better than another class other than necro, no news there.

And NB was the new NB when it only had dk to compare to. Sorc compares to DK, Arcanist, NB, and plar to some degree. All of which are fairly strong.

Point is, this needs more time to bake before we can really say what's what.

SkaraMinoc

One of my bash builds has 32k health, 45k magicka, 24k stamina with 1500 mag/sta recovery and 30k armor. I lose some bash damage running Crafty Alfiq but Power Slam gets a boost from the nearly 20000 extra MaxStat value that I wouldn't normally have. It's not my best bash build but the fact that it's viable is kind of silly.

taugrim

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

They’ll just say “Sorc is now on par with other classes” lol..

I know for a fact if you had hopped on another class with the same level of experience as you have on Sorc, you would’ve died instantly.

Sorc is better than other classes right now. It’s the new NB.

So when you say another class it would really depend on the build, how inclined someone is to a class and what kind of people they are fighting/ fighting around.

So is sorc better than other classes?

Yes of course it is because every class is better than another class other than necro, no news there.

And NB was the new NB when it only had dk to compare to. Sorc compares to DK, Arcanist, NB, and plar to some degree. All of which are fairly strong.

Point is, this needs more time to bake before we can really say what's what.

This is a poor excuse advocating for inaction.

It took me all of 3 BGs in high MMR the first evening after the patch dropped to realize how massively broken sorc shielding is in PVP. It's faceroll easy to survive by activating 1 skill.

Activating a shield requires no skill. You just press a key. It completely shuts down your opponent. There is no counter play.

Also, if you're comparing to those other classes:
1. DK doesn't have the mobility that Sorc does
2. Arc doesn't have the mobility that Sorc does (and please don't cite that goofy teleport class skill as being comparable to Streak)
3. NB doesn't have the mobility that Sorc does. It has stealth, but stealth's counterplay is stealth detect skills / pots
4. Plar? Plar shouldn't even be on this list. No one complains about the class being imbalanced. The only thing that stands out about it is the ranged execute, which is great if you can get an opponent down to 25% HP or less, which the rest of the class kit isn't that strong to do

Right now, Sorc has not only by far the best mobility skill in the game, they have ludicrous shielding on top of that.

Reginald_leBlem

Let sorc have some fun for once

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

They’ll just say “Sorc is now on par with other classes” lol..

I know for a fact if you had hopped on another class with the same level of experience as you have on Sorc, you would’ve died instantly.

Sorc is better than other classes right now. It’s the new NB.

Actually this depends on other factors. Some people are just naturally better with certain classes even if they don't have the experience.

NB is very powerful and I'm an experienced player but I'm mediocre or less most of the time on NB because I don't enjoy playing it.

So when you say another class it would really depend on the build, how inclined someone is to a class and what kind of people they are fighting/ fighting around.

So is sorc better than other classes?

Yes of course it is because every class is better than another class other than necro, no news there.

And NB was the new NB when it only had dk to compare to. Sorc compares to DK, Arcanist, NB, and plar to some degree. All of which are fairly strong.

Point is, this needs more time to bake before we can really say what's what.

No we don’t need more time Bushido. It’s a ridiculous thing to say.

When Dark Convergence/Plaguebreak went live, it didn’t take “more time to bake” for people to see the sets are broken. Literally 1 hour of PvP was enough.

So why do we have to wait 3 months to see whether Sorc is broken or not when there are people in this thread who rarely played their Sorc but can face tank other classes and get kills?

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

Stats look cool man, if were trying to see who has the biggest tooltip, but half of those don't work in practice, most of those would have major sustain issues and we're throwing on buffs that probably wouldn't work for that class. For example...

I get it Khajit is meta for that crit damage but really need that Breton cost reduction / High elf passive to sustain those damage shields. You're popping those every like 3 gcds on average at 3800~ a pop on khajit? So average that to 7500 magicka every 3 ticks of recovery. Needing something like 2500 active recovery for JUST the ward.

Axes are cool for stats (high weapon damage and crit damage) but most Mag Sorcs are ranged and benefit from the mobility of streak to use their ranged kit as an advantage, so lightning staff with less weapon damage and no crit damage.

Is that minor force I see added? Dark deal is cool don't get me wrong, but that 10 second timer and a cast time is ROUGH, plus that's more you're taking away from the magicka sustain needed to keep popping those shields.

As someone who uses a stamina spammable (crushing weapon / inner beast) 1400 recovery ain't enough. I struggle with 2k at times when I'm really on the offensive or in group play.

And I'm assuming we're throwing BS champion star buffs in there (I could be wrong but a lot of these numbers look over inflated though)? I would never pick stat sheet 150 weapon damage over 6% increased damage, or recovery from the red tree over damage mitigation, once again stat sheet warrior versus actual build.

But I don't disagree stacking magicka has never been easier with mage light, bound aegis, and the new passive 10% increase (Granted you're losing 2 bar slots). 50k is NOT hard to achieve. But like you said 50k is a 13-14k ward (with bastion so you're taking more damage by not taking other mitigation stars) and a 4k actual heal, but that isn't completely out of line.... 15k heals are not uncommon for a reactive defense option and that health doesn't disappear in 6 seconds. So balance wise "temporary health" needs to considered when deciding what a correct balance value should be (which once again I'm not disagreeing that it shouldn't be adjusted).

It's the 60k magicka setups that offer 15-16k wards and 5k actual heals that are on the upper edge of the problem. But I truly think those setups are gimped on damage to be as defensive as they are. Regardless 20k "health" per cast is very strong.

Bushido2513

taugrim wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I'm not too good with my MagSorc, only AR25. Since my original was a melee DK, I was too prone to get in melee range and I was squishy, so I'd die.

However, last night I took my Magsorc into Zerodil and didn't die once. I hate to say it but Magsorc went from one of the most challenging class almost to easy mode with this change.

So when you say you didn't die what did you survive? A 12 man running negate and dc, 3 hard hitting NBs, one dk and two hard hitting bow builds, a large bomb with 3 vs procs?

Also when you didn't die was it to copious streak usage?

And lastly did you get many kills in group or on your own?

I ask all this because there's a difference in not dying and not dying while getting solo kills. As well as a difference in not dying and just getting out of there because a lot of classes and builds can currently do this with relative ease so I'm curious

I was solo. I survived several keep battles where EP was over run and I was surrounded by hoardes of opposing faction. Normally I would have been blown to bits but the hardened ward kept me alive even in close quarters several times, even in melee range. I think I had 44 kills and 0 deaths before maintenance. Like I said I am not an expert sorc by any means. I will say it is fun to play sorc now, but OP builds are always fun...for a little while at least

They’ll just say “Sorc is now on par with other classes” lol..

I know for a fact if you had hopped on another class with the same level of experience as you have on Sorc, you would’ve died instantly.

Sorc is better than other classes right now. It’s the new NB.

So when you say another class it would really depend on the build, how inclined someone is to a class and what kind of people they are fighting/ fighting around.

So is sorc better than other classes?

Yes of course it is because every class is better than another class other than necro, no news there.

And NB was the new NB when it only had dk to compare to. Sorc compares to DK, Arcanist, NB, and plar to some degree. All of which are fairly strong.

Point is, this needs more time to bake before we can really say what's what.

This is a poor excuse advocating for inaction.

It took me all of 3 BGs in high MMR the first evening after the patch dropped to realize how massively broken sorc shielding is in PVP. It's faceroll easy to survive by activating 1 skill.

Activating a shield requires no skill. You just press a key. It completely shuts down your opponent. There is no counter play.

Also, if you're comparing to those other classes:
1. DK doesn't have the mobility that Sorc does
2. Arc doesn't have the mobility that Sorc does (and please don't cite that goofy teleport class skill as being comparable to Streak)
3. NB doesn't have the mobility that Sorc does. It has stealth, but stealth's counterplay is stealth detect skills / pots
4. Plar? Plar shouldn't even be on this list. No one complains about the class being imbalanced. The only thing that stands out about it is the ranged execute, which is great if you can get an opponent down to 25% HP or less, which the rest of the class kit isn't that strong to do

Right now, Sorc has not only by far the best mobility skill in the game, they have ludicrous shielding on top of that.

I respect that to you right now it feels like a certain kind of situation and there's always two types of people, those that see it and react and those that want to be patient about it. Both types have a chance to be right. So maybe you're right and this is just as bad as people think it is.

For me I'd rather see how the community reacts past the first few days which is usually where you get the people who are all revved up and ready to swing hard in one direction or the other. I'd rather see people comment on this after the fanfare has cooled down. Doesn't mean I'll be any more right for doing so, just that I don't see much value in choosing to say the world is on fire because of this change.

Also it's not that I'm just waiting for people to calm down and have another look but I'm also waiting to see how people might change their builds up to deal with sorc as it is.

I don't rely on static or static's friends, or any other portion of the community because it's a big community with a lot of people out there so I'd like to give it time to observe.

Now that's not to say that I disagree that it's busted in the 1v1, because I do generally speaking agree. It's just that this game isn't about the 1v1 per the direction of zos so it's not really relevant to the bigger picture of the game as a whole.