Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513

Zabagad wrote: »

I thought only the animation - but maybe you are right and it was just another call of a function with a smaller value as the variable...

Well what really clued me in is that you can hear it's the same sound as the bird heal. I believe you're right in that there is a small animation as well but yeah definitely reused code. Probably the quick and dirty solution someone came up with. To turn it into a hot would require new code I'd guess since they probably wouldn't want to take the sound and animation from other hots like rapid regen and so forth. Again could be wrong but zos has reused many many assets over the years so this wouldn't be out of the realm of what they might do or have done.

StaticWave

@Zabagad And FYI, before the buff to Ward I've been surviving up to 4k DPS without a burst heal. It's very doable on Sorc and works for the majority of situations. The only times when you really need a burst heal is when fighting a cancer DoT build or being ganked from stealth. In those 2 scenarios you need a burst heal.

I don't think turning the burst heal into a HoT is going to make Sorc just as strong. Sure they can still survive high DPS, but it's much harder for them to get out of execute range now, and that's mainly what I want. There's supposed to be counterplay for shield (harder to get out of execute range). The burst heal on Ward completely removed that aspect. You have to literally 100-0 a Sorc before they can cast their first Ward or they will just reset the fight. Ward currently performs well vs burst AND pressure, and there's practically zero reliable counterplay. Turning the burst heal into a HoT will reintroduce 1 counterplay and imo that's balanced.

Turtle_Bot

Zabagad wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

For me it looks like that we could get a really nice sorc situation if ZOS were doing both:
1) make the heal over time on ward
+
2) Change +8% maxMag on BA to major crit buffs on both bars
that we “all” here could live with?

For what's it worth, I can not live with this.
Can't it be another skill that fullfills this solemn duty? I like Aegis as it is, and I like Magelight as it is, too. I begged for 8 years for Aegis to finally become good for Magsorc, and it took 3, or 4? reworks until the skill was finally worth it. This sudden crusade against magicka, after having been a dead stat for years now, is very unbecoming. I will never agree to the destruction of build variety.

Bound Aegis could get a more interesting and more universally useful active effect though (maybe major crit buffs for 20 seconds?), but the passive effects are fine as they are. Maybe tanks would be upset, but I never once used the active component on a pve tank build, and I have tanked nearly everything there is.

First: Your quote is wrong - it wasn't necrotech who wrote this.

So - can you please explain why you like magelight?
I hate it - and I hate that I have to slot it (or my potion is bound to crit) and then I have the crit buff+the extra mag only on one bar.
First - this forces me to put the ward on the same bar. (build variety)
Second - My maxMag is different on the bars which comes with some negative problems - for example if I start the fight on the other bar or after I swap to that bar when the mag is only at ~90%. This often shrinks my build variety too.
Third: How often have you detect someone with the skill itself? I can clearly say that you need really much luck and in a mean it's much much to expensive for this small radius. So I never use it unless I have no other option available - are on 100% mag and have a "feeling" or are bored. I guess I have never detected somebody - maybe 1-2 times since the patch where they "buffed" it from 6m to 8m.... (~U37?)

Then - the BA change was suggested by Turtle(?) to dampen the maximum mag problem.
BA would be still good for magSorcs and I guess that it would be still a standard skill on magSorcs in PvP. (~80-90%)
If they put major crit buffs on any other skill, sorc would be buffed even further and the idea was to change the max mag problem (curse) with a (kiss) on the other site to get one "free" skillslot. (and this opens even more build variety)

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is secretly a nerf Sorc suggestion disguised as a buff Sorc one. And this has been a suggestion from a lot of people, but is definitely an out of touch consideration for what a Mag Sorc would actually want.

I don't think that it was "secretly" a nerf Sorc suggestion. It was clearly explained, that this would lead to much less max Mag stacking (-8% and -7%) - with the benefit of a free slot. So sure it was not "what a Mag Sorc would actually want" - it was an compromise to the "nerf ward" discussion.
Btw: When Turtle mentioned it the first time, I wasn't in favour of it myself and if I remember correctly he was using an or between that and the HoT solution and it was just me with an and.

If there wouldn't be the possible PvE tanks, I would like the idea of:
+X% mag, minor protection, minor resolve, and a used active major Prophecy/Savagery for a cheaper price.
(X <= 8; to be discussed)
So you could still slot both BA+mageLight, but we could get a free slot if we want.
But I guess there are (many?) tanks out there which use the active part?
I never used it (on will )...

The BA change from max stats to prophecy/savagery was originally put forward by @MashmalloMan iirc. But, as @Zabagad has stated, my caveat for supporting that particular change to BA, would only be, IF zos refuses to adjust ward's burst heal into a HoT, (i.e. it's 1 OR the other, not both), since making both changes would indeed be a big nerf to magsorc.

One of the other reasons I liked the idea of that change to BA a lot is that it would allow all sorcs to get the most out of both morphs depending on which role they want to be (DPS or tank), instead of trying to pigeonhole the mag morph for tanking and the stam morph for DPS.

The other idea I have seen for adjusting BA that is kind of a middle ground would be to reduce the stats on BA/morphs from 8% to 5%, but both morphs grant both mag and stam instead of just one or the other, then also having armaments grant a small unique bonus to crit chance (1% to 1.5%) per active dagger (similar to spec bow stacks but its crit chance instead of weapon/spell damage) to reinforce it as the DPS morph where as aegis is the tanking morph with its minor resolve and minor protection. This reduces the peak max stats while also hybridizing both morphs of the skill for all sorcs to get the most benefit out of their chosen morph to suit their chosen role.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still stand by the solution to turn that burst heal into a HoT. Something like "if no pets are affected, you will heal for X amount over 5 seconds. This effect persists when your shield is removed". That X amount could be the current burst heal but over 5 seconds. That same 16k shield with a 9k burst heal tooltip will now heal for 500 every second over 5s, and when you spam it, you refresh the first tick and can turn it into a small 1k "burst heal", similar to how spamming Vigor can force 2 ticks to happen in the same GCD. It rewards you for preemptively using the shield, and also gives ppl the chance to kill you if you don't keep up your shield and get low.

wb

Like I said, I'm in favour of this solution - but like I also said, you can still make videos/posts with "Sorc is doing 8+K HPS".
(Yes I know the burst would be gone - it's just a friendly side slash towards your way to prove "ward OP"... )

Lol, they are doing 8k HPS in a damage build.

It's easy to survive 8k HPS if you build for it. It's not easy to survive 8k HPS if you don't build for it. Not many classes can survive that kind of damage unless they purposely build for it. Sorc is doing 8k HPS in a damage build. That's the issue you aren't understanding.

We could go on and on but can you name me 1 spec with the capability to tank 7k DPS while having high damage, high mobility, and high sustain? Templar has to sit in Rune + Ritual to tank 7k DPS. Warden has to build 50k HP with Polar Wind to tank 7k DPS. Meanwhile magsorc is chilling with 55k max mag and can tank 7k DPS, or Streak 10x in a row if they want to. There's no debate here.

You going too in depth to prove me and @xylena_lazarow about how we can "cheese" the CMX data is factually wrong. All my data has been taken from duels and I've shown several screenshots of my Sorc tanking 7k DPS from a DK in an actual fight. I could run into the same DK in Cyrodiil or BG and it wouldn't make a difference. Heck, I could even Streak 10x in a row and reset the fight at will since I'm no longer bound by the dueling radius restriction. Can a Warden or Templar reset the fight like that with their kit? Certainly not. They have to slot Mist Form and even then they can't use it 10x in a row lol.

Looks like you missed my point completely again - all I tried to say is - HoT or Heal - your HPS will stay (almost) the same. (and we had exactly the same discussion over a month ago - where you missed it as well before you understood the point)
Edit: It was more then 2 month ago - starting with #58 until in #61 you said: "HPS will honestly not change that much, but 2 things will happen for sure:"

(Edit the next part because it wasn't exactly what I tried to say:)
And no - I never tried to say you cheese data (even I dislike some parts) - I just did that for Xylena 86%-Healing-Percent-Screenshot.
And it wasn't a cheese claim either - it was just to show that this particular claim didn't make sense and didn't show what she was thinking.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

The issue isn't just the high max mag. It's a combination of high max mag, high shield value, high burst heal value, and sustain from having a high mag pool.

The 60k max mag build can reach a 16k shield tooltip. If you lower the HP cap to 60% like previously, then the cap for shield is still 18k. Even at 50%, or a 15k shield cap, the change is negligible. A magsorc with 14k shield and Rallying Cry can survive just as well as a magsorc with 16k shield and no Rallying Cry, and I would argue they can survive better. Nothing will get fixed until that burst heal is gone unfortunately.

I still stand by the solution to turn that burst heal into a HoT. Something like "if no pets are affected, you will heal for X amount over 5 seconds. This effect persists when your shield is removed". That X amount could be the current burst heal but over 5 seconds. That same 16k shield with a 9k burst heal tooltip will now heal for 500 every second over 5s, and when you spam it, you refresh the first tick and can turn it into a small 1k "burst heal", similar to how spamming Vigor can force 2 ticks to happen in the same GCD. It rewards you for preemptively using the shield, and also gives ppl the chance to kill you if you don't keep up your shield and get low.

I generally believe that compensatory buffs should follow nerfs. So when the "burst" heal (gods, I just can't grasp how 4k heal is supposed to be a burst heal, but alas) gets turned into a HoT, say over 5 seconds, then the total value should increase as a consequence.

No one expects this to be the size of vigor, but recovering 7.5% of your magicka as health over 5 seconds, is too minute.

I will say though that this does not sound unfair at all. "Forcing" Magsorcs to shield up and then Streak to get pressure off of them to let the HoT work to the same effect as the "burst" heal currently does, sounds like healthy and logical design. So I will pledge once again, that I am for this, if done properly. Especially when 1 tick of healing is granted immediately upon use, as suggested by you.

I just detest healing spam of any kind. Ward is not meant to be spammed. It's meant to give you a bolster so that you may attack freely for a few moments. I almost think that 1s penalty should be placed on burst skills like this, that their cost increases when spammed unreasonably.

Dracane

Zabagad wrote: »

First: Your quote is wrong - it wasn't necrotech who wrote this.

So - can you please explain why you like magelight?
I hate it - and I hate that I have to slot it (or my potion is bound to crit) and then I have the crit buff+the extra mag only on one bar.
First - this forces me to put the ward on the same bar. (build variety)
Second - My maxMag is different on the bars which comes with some negative problems - for example if I start the fight on the other bar or after I swap to that bar when the mag is only at ~90%. This often shrinks my build variety too.
Third: How often have you detect someone with the skill itself? I can clearly say that you need really much luck and in a mean it's much much to expensive for this small radius. So I never use it unless I have no other option available - are on 100% mag and have a "feeling" or are bored. I guess I have never detected somebody - maybe 1-2 times since the patch where they "buffed" it from 6m to 8m.... (~U37?)

Then - the BA change was suggested by Turtle(?) to dampen the maximum mag problem.
BA would be still good for magSorcs and I guess that it would be still a standard skill on magSorcs in PvP. (~80-90%)
If they put major crit buffs on any other skill, sorc would be buffed even further and the idea was to change the max mag problem (curse) with a (kiss) on the other site to get one "free" skillslot. (and this opens even more build variety)

You are right, Magelight is unreliable and expensive. I can't claim to always catch someone with it, but it's better than being completely helpless. (sightless)

Ressource desyncing has always been an issue, but this could be solved by allowing Magelight to work on either bar. ZoS have demonstrated that they have the ability to do this. We just have to petition for it.

There is nothing otherwise wrong with Magelight. It's a very good skill to have for all magicka builds, and a radius increase could be issued as well. But we won't get the skill improved by being childish about it, and refusing to use it because it is oh so limiting.

Dracane

Zabagad wrote: »

Sure they can still survive high DPS, but it's much harder for them to get out of execute range now, and that's mainly what I want. There's supposed to be counterplay for shield (harder to get out of execute range).

Have to agree there. This is my gripe with ward as well.
Though this is still primarily a 1v1 issue. Vs. more than one competent opponent, it's really not too strong.

I see no solution that would satisfy both worlds. Making Ward so weak that it can barely keep up against 1 opponent would be the end for many Sorc builds, because at least for me, I rarely find myself in equal fights. It's always outnumbered, by a large margin. I still think that this takes priority over 1v1s, because they should almost never happen in most pvp content.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still stand by the solution to turn that burst heal into a HoT. Something like "if no pets are affected, you will heal for X amount over 5 seconds. This effect persists when your shield is removed". That X amount could be the current burst heal but over 5 seconds. That same 16k shield with a 9k burst heal tooltip will now heal for 500 every second over 5s, and when you spam it, you refresh the first tick and can turn it into a small 1k "burst heal", similar to how spamming Vigor can force 2 ticks to happen in the same GCD. It rewards you for preemptively using the shield, and also gives ppl the chance to kill you if you don't keep up your shield and get low.

wb

Like I said, I'm in favour of this solution - but like I also said, you can still make videos/posts with "Sorc is doing 8+K HPS".
(Yes I know the burst would be gone - it's just a friendly side slash towards your way to prove "ward OP"... )

Lol, they are doing 8k HPS in a damage build.

It's easy to survive 8k HPS if you build for it. It's not easy to survive 8k HPS if you don't build for it. Not many classes can survive that kind of damage unless they purposely build for it. Sorc is doing 8k HPS in a damage build. That's the issue you aren't understanding.

We could go on and on but can you name me 1 spec with the capability to tank 7k DPS while having high damage, high mobility, and high sustain? Templar has to sit in Rune + Ritual to tank 7k DPS. Warden has to build 50k HP with Polar Wind to tank 7k DPS. Meanwhile magsorc is chilling with 55k max mag and can tank 7k DPS, or Streak 10x in a row if they want to. There's no debate here.

You going too in depth to prove me and @xylena_lazarow about how we can "cheese" the CMX data is factually wrong. All my data has been taken from duels and I've shown several screenshots of my Sorc tanking 7k DPS from a DK in an actual fight. I could run into the same DK in Cyrodiil or BG and it wouldn't make a difference. Heck, I could even Streak 10x in a row and reset the fight at will since I'm no longer bound by the dueling radius restriction. Can a Warden or Templar reset the fight like that with their kit? Certainly not. They have to slot Mist Form and even then they can't use it 10x in a row lol.

So ok let me say that your views in my opinion are part truths and part situational observations.

First I want to say that I don't believe the intent was to say that you cheesed the cmx data but more so in my opinion to show that the cmx data can vary far from the example you showed depending on factors. So I wouldn't say your data is inaccurate or manipulated on purpose but just that there's a range and not just the one point you presented.

That being said I don't think there's much to be argued about the numbers you presented. They are what they are in that given scenario. I've just always said that this doesn't extrapolate to the whole of the pvp experience.

Let's say ok we have a sorc that can tank damage while dealing out good damage while being elusive. In a vacuum this does indeed represent a very strong position. But the thing is as you said, other classes can build to mitigate the sorcs damage, and yes we have a tank meta. So my thought is yes the sorc hits hard and can run away but if a lot out there can mitigate the damage then yes it leads to stalemates that then require ganging up but if it also isn't leading to unfair deaths and maybe even a longer more interesting fight then that has to be looked at too in whatever value it has to the pvp community.

While you may not be into it, there are those that prefer a fight where they can trade blows, have someone to chase, and just purely not die. Is this competitive or balanced, no not really, but it's sometimes more enjoyable than a competitive setting where you are instantly shown how inadequate your skills are and just have to get good as they say.

I think your approach does take a look at what would feel fun and balanced for you but that it isn't really addressing the community as a whole and what might be fun for different types of players.

Your cmx represents the outcome of someone that has played the game for a while, might be looking for a competitive outcome, and who is using a proper build.

This reminds me of the difference I experience in pve in playing with an optimized raid group vs a fun run group. The optimized group gets upset if you didn't bring the right build/skills and you aren't playing towards perfection. The fun run group just doesn't really get upset about much of anything and is just happy to laugh and play the game. There's no right way to play a video game so both groups are fine doing their thing but you run into some interesting discussions / arguments when the groups try to mix and bring in their way of doing things to the other group.



I feel like here you have an agenda with where you want ward to end up in overall pvp but I just question if your cmx data and views take into account the casual perspective and how they may care less about numbers and more about just being able to trade blows and not die, or get revenge with the help of buddies if they do die, etc?

xylena_lazarow

Zabagad wrote: »

it was just to show that this particular claim didn't make sense and didn't show what she was thinking.

Is there a way I can demonstrate more clearly? Is there a language barrier?

Bushido2513 wrote: »

views take into account the casual perspective

Want to talk about what it's like for a casual PvPer to have to fight against Sorcs?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I feel like here you have an agenda with where you want ward to end up in overall pvp but I just question if your cmx data and views take into account the casual perspective and how they may care less about numbers and more about just being able to trade blows and not die, or get revenge with the help of buddies if they do die, etc?

My counter argument is do you think a casual player is going to have any chance of fighting a magsorc?

Let’s be honest here. Ward currently only has 1 counter and that’s perfectly executing a 100-0 combo with perfect timing. That counter also works on literally every class, so is it really a class specific counter anymore? Also, do we honestly think a casual player is going to pull that off consistently? Do we honestly think a casual player can even survive the first volley of cfrag + spammable + curse to actually use any of their offensive skills?

The casuals I see don’t fight magsorcs. They get bodied by them. If that magsorc is also a casual player, then chances are they will sit behind their group with Mages Fury ready to explode someone. I don’t expect any casual player to jump into the enemy team, kill a magsorc, and get out unscathed. Even experienced players like myself still wouldn’t take that risk unless he’s a high value target and we know for sure we have an escape option.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

it was just to show that this particular claim didn't make sense and didn't show what she was thinking.

Is there a way I can demonstrate more clearly? Is there a language barrier?

Bushido2513 wrote: »

views take into account the casual perspective

Want to talk about what it's like for a casual PvPer to have to fight against Sorcs?

So casuals are encouraged to group up honestly. Usually as a casual you get exploded by a good player then naturally learn to stay closer to your team, group, heals, etc. You also tend to build tanky so that you don't get blown up, or you run nightblade, or ask a friend to heal for you etc.

I have friends that are casuals and mid range so I'm somewhat familiar in how their dynamic goes vs mine.

I build optimized for being solo and having to heal myself for instance where they build for a group where they will get off heals and cover fire. So our cmx would look different because they might not even try to or remember to heal them selves on the regular. And these types of players should be accounted for in any reasoning on how ward affects pvp as a whole.

Also for the record I think for a casual pretty much any class can be terrible to face.

The sorc is going to blow you away with curse overloads and what not.

The plar will get you with a beam or meteor javelin beam

NB will just global you out of nowhere

Arcanist will sap resources and kill you with some damage on top

Dk will hit you like a truck with whips that take almost half your health while you're locked down

Warden will hit you with the out of nowhere timed stun and damage combo.



Basically sorc is deadly but to a casual death can come in many flavors of they stray away so I don't see a sorc v casual as too special of a condition.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I feel like here you have an agenda with where you want ward to end up in overall pvp but I just question if your cmx data and views take into account the casual perspective and how they may care less about numbers and more about just being able to trade blows and not die, or get revenge with the help of buddies if they do die, etc?

My counter argument is do you think a casual player is going to have any chance of fighting a magsorc?

Let’s be honest here. Ward currently only has 1 counter and that’s perfectly executing a 100-0 combo with perfect timing. That counter also works on literally every class, so is it really a class specific counter anymore? Also, do we honestly think a casual player is going to pull that off consistently? Do we honestly think a casual player can even survive the first volley of cfrag + spammable + curse to actually use any of their offensive skills?

The casuals I see don’t fight magsorcs. They get bodied by them. If that magsorc is also a casual player, then chances are they will sit behind their group with Mages Fury ready to explode someone. I don’t expect any casual player to jump into the enemy team, kill a magsorc, and get out unscathed. Even experienced players like myself still wouldn’t take that risk unless he’s a high value target and we know for sure we have an escape option.

See my other post and do understand this is from me playing with friends that are casuals. They usually just default to builds and classes that are highly survivable and they don't mind grouping up to kill someone at all.

Yes I blow up casuals all the time but having said the above I can also describe several fights when I go to kill a casual and they are too tanky, have a friend in stealth or are happy to wait for their faction to come along and turn the tables then chase me. Your cmx data doesn't account for the idea that people have no problem ganging up, especially casuals.

I think of it like this. With Arcanist ZOS made sales and people got to play out the power fantasy of being very hard to kill and sometimes getting a death blow or just being one of the last ones standing. I personally didn't quit the game, I just understood that if I wanted to kill that Arcanist I'd need help or to move to another target. I think casuals somewhat tend to catch on to the same idea.

I think a lot of your descriptions trend towards 1v1 and while yes that's a thing , it doesn't take into account the more common xvx and xv1 scenarios.

This is funny to me because I on the regular live out the reality that I as a solo player can RARELY get an undisturbed 1v1 open world. So to me your talking about this from such a 1v1 imbalanced scenario doesn't track because unless you're dueling any 1v1 usually becomes an xv1 open world.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So casuals are encouraged to group up honestly.

Ironically an eloquent defense of 1vX being a valid part of PvP that does NOT hurt casual play! Not what I was expecting. Well played. Coincidentally, an unrelated thread just popped up regarding casual PvPers going up against Sorcs.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

I will say though that this does not sound unfair at all. "Forcing" Magsorcs to shield up and then Streak to get pressure off of them to let the HoT work to the same effect as the "burst" heal currently does, sounds like healthy and logical design.

@Dracane pretty sure we have badly misunderstood each other, because this is exactly what I keep trying to say lol. Glad to see others explained it better than I did.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So casuals are encouraged to group up honestly.

Ironically an eloquent defense of 1vX being a valid part of PvP that does NOT hurt casual play! Not what I was expecting. Well played. Coincidentally, an unrelated thread just popped up regarding casual PvPers going up against Sorcs.

To be fair they could also be talking about Arcanist but the funny thing is that in both cases if a casual is having a hard time killing them their best bet is going to be to bring numbers.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave
@xylena_lazarow

This was just a no sweat duel between me and a buddy. We both don't have perma sustain setups and just have high damage stuff on so our DPS comes in waves.

Dampen is roughly 20% weaker than hardened from what I was seeing (old Hardened Ward). But I was keeping up with his 4-4.5k DPS with it, so I'm sure I was handling 4800-5500+ DPS last patch with Hardened.

Every single fight Dampen is sitting around 80% of my total HPS. Ward used to be 80-85% of my HPS every fight.

So I'm not really sure what's the concern about Ward being the vast majority of the HPS in this patch? That hasn't changed.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave
@xylena_lazarow

This was just a no sweat duel between me and a buddy. We both don't have perma sustain setups and just have high damage stuff on so our DPS comes in waves.

Dampen is roughly 20% weaker than hardened from what I was seeing (old Hardened Ward). But I was keeping up with his 4-4.5k DPS with it, so I'm sure I was handling 4800-5500+ DPS last patch with Hardened.

Every single fight Dampen is sitting around 80% of my total HPS. Ward used to be 80-85% of my HPS every fight.

So I'm not really sure what's the concern about Ward being the vast majority of the HPS in this patch? That hasn't changed.

I think my argument isn’t how 1 skill contributes to the majority of someone’s HPS. That’s @xylena_lazarow ’s argument.

My argument is:

1) Why is Ward allowing players to survive 7k+ DPS? That has never been the case for magsorc up until now. I duel in Stormhaven a lot and I have yet to see a single magsorc last patch tank 7k DPS with just Ward

2) Why is Ward contributing more compared to other burst heals even if you still stack multiple HoTs and use them consistently?

I’ve shown in my screenshot of a Cyrodiil fight that Ward did 30% of my HPS, with the burst heal doing 10%. All while other HoTs are rolling so I’m not intentionally cheesing Ward’s HPS. Can you replicate that burst heal HPS on another class?

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

1. But I think that's the whole thing, Ward takes more damage in general than other forms of defense. Take that same 7k against a Sorc and it's 6k or less against another player (depending if bastion is slotted). Because less damage is being block mitigated and a Sorc wants you to damage their shield so they will be less inclined to dodge roll with it up.

2. I feel like you said that wasn't your argument but then this point is stating exactly that. Ward has ALWAYS had the largest contribution for HPS. And I know no one is saying Ward was a problem last update. It's the interaction of going over your health and being a consistent value every cast. It's going to contribute more.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your second point.

Zabagad

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

it was just to show that this particular claim didn't make sense and didn't show what she was thinking.

Is there a way I can demonstrate more clearly? Is there a language barrier?

It's always possible that the language barrier could be a problem when talking to me, but in this case: no.
And even though I was on the verge of trying it again, long and wide, and this time also taking up your suggestion and taking the cmx shots in cyro, I am extremely grateful to @Jsmalls that he has just prepared the topic again anyway:

Jsmalls wrote: »

Every single fight Dampen is sitting around 80% of my total HPS. Ward used to be 80-85% of my HPS every fight.
So I'm not really sure what's the concern about Ward being the vast majority of the HPS in this patch? That hasn't changed.

(This saves me so much time - ty very much @Jsmalls )

I think now there are no more excuses for you - either you accept that your 86% example says nothing, or the problem lies with you....

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

1. But I think that's the whole thing, Ward takes more damage in general than other forms of defense. Take that same 7k against a Sorc and it's 6k or less against another player (depending if bastion is slotted). Because less damage is being block mitigated and a Sorc wants you to damage their shield so they will be less inclined to dodge roll with it up.

2. I feel like you said that wasn't your argument but then this point is stating exactly that. Ward has ALWAYS had the largest contribution for HPS. And I know no one is saying Ward was a problem last update. It's the interaction of going over your health and being a consistent value every cast. It's going to contribute more.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your second point.

@Jsmalls

1) Right, but that also means you don’t have to block cast or dodge roll as much and can conserve stamina. It’s a tradeoff that is also a benefit for magsorc.

Did you know a simple light attack + spammable + bash combo drains stamina twice in 1 GCD? That's right, there are 3 instances of damage and block cooldown is around 0.25s. Assuming your block cost is 900 on ice staff, that's 1800 stamina/magicka every second if your opponent does a simple light attack bash weave rotation.

So if you want to make a fair comparison, then let's use that into consideration as well. Blocking for 1 second drains 1800 stam, and potentially 1.5k more if you cut off your stam sustain right when it ticks.

Then let's also consider the reduced movement speed while blocking. Nobody is going to block cast when they get zerged, as that's asking to die. They may tap block at most, but most of the time they are sprinting away to the nearest LoS.

2) My argument was Ward is doing way more than any burst heal in the game. People have been using the argument that "Ward is now on par with other burst heal and is balanced", but that's factually not true. I've proven that Ward is in fact better than other burst heals because it allows you to soak up damage before your actual HP does, and also allows you to heal up if you get low. It does 2 things in 1 skill, which no other burst heal is capable of.

This isn't even an argument. If you play both stam and mag then you will see exactly what I'm talking about. If you only play mag, then it's really hard to explain to you why Ward is currently better than other burst heals. And I'm saying this to everyone who only mains magsorc too. Please play a stam class for a day and let me know if everything I said is true.

xylena_lazarow

@Jsmalls thanks! For context, what was your own dps? Doesn't have to be full breakdown, just total.

It would seem from these numbers that you have no trouble surviving relatively high damage without a burst heal, and that max mag scaling shields are strong on their own without a healing component. This supports my earlier assertion that the buffs to Sorc's mag pool via better passives and better stat sets have been sufficient to revitalize the MagSorc archetype, and that adding a large burst heal on top of an already strong shield is simply unnecessary.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Jsmalls thanks! For context, what was your own dps? Doesn't have to be full breakdown, just total.

It would seem from these numbers that you have no trouble surviving relatively high damage without a burst heal, and that max mag scaling shields are strong on their own without a healing component. This supports my earlier assertion that the buffs to Sorc's mag pool via better passives and better stat sets have been sufficient to revitalize the MagSorc archetype, and that adding a large burst heal on top of an already strong shield is simply unnecessary.

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies. Yes if all players run a build like jsmalls, have jsmalls skills, and get into fights similar to the one jsmalls tested then sure make a blanket statement. The truth is that this isn't the case so from this we can only tell that in some scenarios a player can survive but then we need to know how likely those scenarios are vs other scenarios.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Jsmalls thanks! For context, what was your own dps? Doesn't have to be full breakdown, just total.

It would seem from these numbers that you have no trouble surviving relatively high damage without a burst heal, and that max mag scaling shields are strong on their own without a healing component. This supports my earlier assertion that the buffs to Sorc's mag pool via better passives and better stat sets have been sufficient to revitalize the MagSorc archetype, and that adding a large burst heal on top of an already strong shield is simply unnecessary.

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies. Yes if all players run a build like jsmalls, have jsmalls skills, and get into fights similar to the one jsmalls tested then sure make a blanket statement. The truth is that this isn't the case so from this we can only tell that in some scenarios a player can survive but then we need to know how likely those scenarios are vs other scenarios.

No we don’t. Ward is overperforming and needs to be turned into a HoT. Idk why you argue just for the sake of arguing lol

jaws343

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

1. But I think that's the whole thing, Ward takes more damage in general than other forms of defense. Take that same 7k against a Sorc and it's 6k or less against another player (depending if bastion is slotted). Because less damage is being block mitigated and a Sorc wants you to damage their shield so they will be less inclined to dodge roll with it up.

2. I feel like you said that wasn't your argument but then this point is stating exactly that. Ward has ALWAYS had the largest contribution for HPS. And I know no one is saying Ward was a problem last update. It's the interaction of going over your health and being a consistent value every cast. It's going to contribute more.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your second point.

@Jsmalls

1) Right, but that also means you don’t have to block cast or dodge roll as much and can conserve stamina. It’s a tradeoff that is also a benefit for magsorc.

Did you know a simple light attack + spammable + bash combo drains stamina twice in 1 GCD? That's right, there are 3 instances of damage and block cooldown is around 0.25s. Assuming your block cost is 900 on ice staff, that's 1800 stamina/magicka every second if your opponent does a simple light attack bash weave rotation.

So if you want to make a fair comparison, then let's use that into consideration as well. Blocking for 1 second drains 1800 stam, and potentially 1.5k more if you cut off your stam sustain right when it ticks.

Then let's also consider the reduced movement speed while blocking. Nobody is going to block cast when they get zerged, as that's asking to die. They may tap block at most, but most of the time they are sprinting away to the nearest LoS.

2) My argument was Ward is doing way more than any burst heal in the game. People have been using the argument that "Ward is now on par with other burst heal and is balanced", but that's factually not true. I've proven that Ward is in fact better than other burst heals because it allows you to soak up damage before your actual HP does, and also allows you to heal up if you get low. It does 2 things in 1 skill, which no other burst heal is capable of.

This isn't even an argument. If you play both stam and mag then you will see exactly what I'm talking about. If you only play mag, then it's really hard to explain to you why Ward is currently better than other burst heals. And I'm saying this to everyone who only mains magsorc too. Please play a stam class for a day and let me know if everything I said is true.

Coming back into this from an offhand comment on like page 1 or 2. I think the general issue with Ward last patch was that it is effectively the worst defensive tool at low health. It just does not actually function once you are in execute because every non-sorc execute tool is pretty much a one shot, through shield. Relying on a HOT to get you out of execute has never been reliable underneath ward.

Especially when classes with reliable burst heals can go from execute to full health immediately. Then they have a full health bar of buffer to get defensive. Sorcs have been at an extreme disadvantage at low health. Even streaking can kill you at low health since it does not prevent attacks, especially if your streak doesn't stun the opponent using an execute.

The burst heal on Ward has been a game changer in that regard. No longer is fighting a templar a death sentence once you hit 30-40% health. Sorcs finally have a compliment to the shield itself that manages to "scale" with opponents and get actual health out of the danger zone it a reasonable amount of time.

I also think it is a bit misleading with the healing numbers shown. How much of that fight were you actually in a situation where the burst heal saved you and how much of the fights are you in a situation where the burst heal is just topping things off. I think that is an important distinction. HOTs are great at topping you off, keeping you at full health, especially under a shield if you keep the shield up. So spamming Ward at 90% health is functionally no different than a HOT, with the added problem of draining your mag to do so. The burst heal is getting you out of execute, which a HOT just doesn't have the juice to do with the amount of damage most classes can put out.

So, I don't think removing the burst heal is a good idea. However, I wouldn't be opposed to implementing a 2 second cooldown on the heal at its current power levels. Make it function like a HOT, but keep it in place as a burst. Allows you to get out of execute, like every other class, but discourages spamming it.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

Coming back into this from an offhand comment on like page 1 or 2. I think the general issue with Ward last patch was that it is effectively the worst defensive tool at low health. It just does not actually function once you are in execute because every non-sorc execute tool is pretty much a one shot, through shield. Relying on a HOT to get you out of execute has never been reliable underneath ward.

Especially when classes with reliable burst heals can go from execute to full health immediately. Then they have a full health bar of buffer to get defensive. Sorcs have been at an extreme disadvantage at low health. Even streaking can kill you at low health since it does not prevent attacks, especially if your streak doesn't stun the opponent using an execute.

The burst heal on Ward has been a game changer in that regard. No longer is fighting a templar a death sentence once you hit 30-40% health. Sorcs finally have a compliment to the shield itself that manages to "scale" with opponents and get actual health out of the danger zone it a reasonable amount of time.

I also think it is a bit misleading with the healing numbers shown. How much of that fight were you actually in a situation where the burst heal saved you and how much of the fights are you in a situation where the burst heal is just topping things off. I think that is an important distinction. HOTs are great at topping you off, keeping you at full health, especially under a shield if you keep the shield up. So spamming Ward at 90% health is functionally no different than a HOT, with the added problem of draining your mag to do so. The burst heal is getting you out of execute, which a HOT just doesn't have the juice to do with the amount of damage most classes can put out.

So, I don't think removing the burst heal is a good idea. However, I wouldn't be opposed to implementing a 2 second cooldown on the heal at its current power levels. Make it function like a HOT, but keep it in place as a burst. Allows you to get out of execute, like every other class, but discourages spamming it.

Ward was not good last patch, but it’s also not balanced this patch. There is a thin little line between making Ward balanced and completely breaking it.

Take this 1vX video I’ve posted several times on this thread:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8?si=Ed6K1ouS6oVlUpHa

Then check the CMX data from that fight:



I used Ward 10 times that fight. The burst heal part did 10.4% of my HPS. The shield part did 20.6%. That’s a total of 31% HPS from casting 1 skill.

On a 36k HP build with HP scaling Ward, it’s acting as both a pseudo “HoT” and a burst heal. 2 functions for the cost of 1 bar slot. The only other comparable burst heal is Polar Wind. You could argue that Polar Wind is more busted, but you need to stack upwards of 45-46k max HP. At that HP, Ward is also busted lol.

Can Coag do that? Can Offering do that? Can HotD do that? I can’t think of a burst heal other than Polar Wind that helps you mitigate DoTs while also providing a burst heal if you get low. At least with a Polar Wind Warden you know it’s sacrificing damage or sustain to get that tooltip. I’m not sacrificing anything on my sorc. I have 36k HP, 28k mag, 36k stam, 1.3k mag regen, 1.3k stam regen, essence thief, 26k armor back bar, 6k WD, 20k pen, 100% crit dmg, and 35% crit rate. There is no shot you’re stam or mag checking me unless you zerg me down.

If the goal is to make magsorc playable, then why make it overpowered? Magsorc currently has everything. Tankiness, sustain, damage, elusiveness, range advantage. Why do we insist that it’s ok?

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

If the goal is to make magsorc playable, then why make it overpowered? Magsorc currently has everything. Tankiness, sustain, damage, elusiveness, range advantage. Why do we insist that it’s ok?

@Jsmalls just (unintentionally) proved you can survive 5k dps with only Dampen Magicka, no burst heal needed.

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

Every Sorc main should pick up an Arcanist and fight a MagSorc with it.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

She provided a more in-depth analysis earlier ITT somehwere. But if you look at this thread as a whole, it's got pretty good representation of casual and competitive players, different playstyles and classes, different regions and servers. That's why each individual account is worthwhile, they add up.

DaisyRay

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.