Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Dracane

Jsmalls wrote: »

With the size increase and a HoT I think Ward would be in a better place versus last patch, though I would prefer better interaction with the class as a whole without commitment of two additional bar slots. I'm okay with keeping bound aegis slotted, but wish major Prophecy/Savagery was added to the class kit (such a big let down for scribing to have not included this in a better way).

I agree. Though Magelight never bothered me, because reasons for slotting it are more than that bit of magicka or prophecy. Potions provide that anyway. Be it detection potion or alliance draught; which is all I use. The detection part of magelight is easily forgotten in this Nightblade infested meta. I contemplate upscaling to Radiant Magelight for that purpose and sacrifice 5% magicka.

Still, they generally have to look at class buffs and debuff. I think every class should cover the most pressing of them. Every class should have major breach as well. Major breach on Curse as suggested by you would be an immense improvement.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

wish major Prophecy/Savagery was added to the class kit (such a big let down for scribing to have not included this in a better way).

For real, much as I dislike the Ward heal, I'm still gonna demand buffs for Sorc regarding major crit chance. Sure running Inner Light and Bound Aegis makes you powerful, but it also gives you fewer things to do, resulting in a spec that's extremely strong but rigid in build and playstyle (less fun). I'd say that's a big reason you don't see more MagSorcs.

StamSorc at least can get major crit chance from the DW knife throw, hopefully the skill is adequate to replace either Twin Slashes or Whirling Blades on my DW bar. I don't know why they are so stingy with major crit, running dead bar slots or weird pots sucks, this one really should've also been on at least the Soul skills that seem to get everything else.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

what's your end goal here?

Get ZOS to notice that Ward is screwing up the competitive end of PvP and rebalance it. Obviously players who do not engage in PvP in this manner are going to have a harder time understanding why exactly Ward is so broken, I have done my best to communicate this, but at the end of the day, it's like we're playing two different games.

Ok honestly that makes a lot of sense in that I understand your goal.

This game has continued to move farther and farther away from competitive PVP over the years. This is something I wish wasn't true but it seems pretty obvious that ZOS is prioritizing sales over improving pvp.

Personally I've just reduced my playtime and just look at the game as more for just random fun then something I can invest in getting better at.

If it would lead to a series of changes regarding competitive balance then I would easily vote for having ward reverted, nerfed, or changed but I don't see that happening based on the direction of the last year or so.

Good luck to you though!

Jsmalls

Dracane wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

With the size increase and a HoT I think Ward would be in a better place versus last patch, though I would prefer better interaction with the class as a whole without commitment of two additional bar slots. I'm okay with keeping bound aegis slotted, but wish major Prophecy/Savagery was added to the class kit (such a big let down for scribing to have not included this in a better way).

I agree. Though Magelight never bothered me, because reasons for slotting it are more than that bit of magicka or prophecy. Potions provide that anyway. Be it detection potion or alliance draught; which is all I use. The detection part of magelight is easily forgotten in this Nightblade infested meta. I contemplate upscaling to Radiant Magelight for that purpose and sacrifice 5% magicka.

Still, they generally have to look at class buffs and debuff. I think every class should cover the most pressing of them. Every class should have major breach as well. Major breach on Curse as suggested by you would be an immense improvement.

@Dracane

Yeah but because potion buffs aren't hybridized it's either one major crit buff or the other. My spammable is stamina along with hurricane, rest of my kit is magicka. Running crit pots would be super inefficient for me so kind of trapped into Magelight (it's not even on the same Bar as ward for me so double whammy would love to drop this ability).

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

Status effect chance can easily go on the apprentice, which would match lore wise as it's an affinity for magic (status effects).

Then if there was a possibility for stamina, magicka, and dual prophecy/savagery as a potion (Dragonthorn, Lady Smock, Columbine)... Would line up to minor heroism pots (5 piece set bonus offered in a line of the potion) as equivalent to Shalk exoskeleton versus Toothrow or Treasure Hunter. Perfectly balanced.

This would help a couple classes.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok honestly that makes a lot of sense in that I understand your goal.

Thanks. I think there exists a way Ward could be adjusted to remain forgiving to casual Sorc players without messing up competitive. The devs can figure that out.

For what it's worth, even on Sorc, the volume of incoming ranged spam damage (particularly ranged proc spam) in group engagements is pressuring our defensive toolkits a lot more than in the past. It's not that anything is hitting harder, it's that we're getting hit more frequently from safe zergers firing and forgetting. So it's understandable that someone would get a bit uneasy at the idea of giving up defensive power in this meta. Scribing can help!

Dracane

Jsmalls wrote: »

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

We really do. Potions are so outdated and limiting; they could either use a reform, or new plants could be added to the normal pool of plants that fill all those holes.

And I suppose I still don't understand this whole hybdridization things? I was told that all your skills just take the higher of whatever stat you have. So all your skills, no matter if physical or magical, will take the higher of your crit rate, magicka or stamina, and spell and weapon damage.

Is that not right?

Jsmalls

Dracane wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

We really do. Potions are so outdated and limiting; they could either use a reform, or new plants could be added to the normal pool of plants that fill all those holes.

And I suppose I still don't understand this whole hybdridization things? I was told that all your skills just take the higher of whatever stat you have. So all your skills, no matter if physical or magical, will take the higher of your crit rate, magicka or stamina, and spell and weapon damage.

Is that not right?

Honestly I assumed if the ability was based on stamina it used weapon crit and vice versa for spell crit.

I could definitely be wrong though, my only parses have both minor/major prophecy and savagery. Definitely something I can look into though.

Dracane

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

We really do. Potions are so outdated and limiting; they could either use a reform, or new plants could be added to the normal pool of plants that fill all those holes.

And I suppose I still don't understand this whole hybdridization things? I was told that all your skills just take the higher of whatever stat you have. So all your skills, no matter if physical or magical, will take the higher of your crit rate, magicka or stamina, and spell and weapon damage.

Is that not right?

Honestly I assumed if the ability was based on stamina it used weapon crit and vice versa for spell crit.

I could definitely be wrong though, my only parses have both minor/major prophecy and savagery. Definitely something I can look into though.

I would anticipate your findings with fervor.
It's only what I heard, and what would make sense to me if hybridization work should be complete. Feel free to contact me.

Necrotech_Master

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

We really do. Potions are so outdated and limiting; they could either use a reform, or new plants could be added to the normal pool of plants that fill all those holes.

And I suppose I still don't understand this whole hybdridization things? I was told that all your skills just take the higher of whatever stat you have. So all your skills, no matter if physical or magical, will take the higher of your crit rate, magicka or stamina, and spell and weapon damage.

Is that not right?

Honestly I assumed if the ability was based on stamina it used weapon crit and vice versa for spell crit.

I could definitely be wrong though, my only parses have both minor/major prophecy and savagery. Definitely something I can look into though.

as far as i was aware that was the point of hybridization, your skills always scale off the highest of your stats

so if your only getting 1 crit buff (say weapon crit), and your weapon crit is higher than spell crit, thats what all your skills should be using

thats how it already works for classes that have a passive that provide 1 dmg buff, like DK can provide minor brutality for the extra weapon dmg, but it still scales all their mag skills

same with templar and minor sorcery (minor spell dmg buff)

i think NB also give the minor savagery (weapon crit) and still benefit on mag skills

so i would think that might be a reason why pots were never "hybridized" because they dont know what to fill in on all of the redundant pots

it would be more effective for a NB to use a weapon crit pot for example than a spell crit pot, but if your stats are equal then it wont matter

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Ok honestly that makes a lot of sense in that I understand your goal.

Thanks. I think there exists a way Ward could be adjusted to remain forgiving to casual Sorc players without messing up competitive. The devs can figure that out.

For what it's worth, even on Sorc, the volume of incoming ranged spam damage (particularly ranged proc spam) in group engagements is pressuring our defensive toolkits a lot more than in the past. It's not that anything is hitting harder, it's that we're getting hit more frequently from safe zergers firing and forgetting. So it's understandable that someone would get a bit uneasy at the idea of giving up defensive power in this meta. Scribing can help!

Honestly before this patch I was already hard to kill with fairly good damage. It's pretty easy to not die with a good build and situational awareness.

The problem is this game now has a lot of offensive and defensive procs and healing is out of control. But it's more appealing and easier to sell by ZOS standards vs just making the game more balanced and about skilled gameplay.


This change may very well be over performing but it also makes mag sorc a bit more accessible. The values could be tweaked I suppose but overall I feel like it just matches the state of the game at the moment.

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

We really do. Potions are so outdated and limiting; they could either use a reform, or new plants could be added to the normal pool of plants that fill all those holes.

And I suppose I still don't understand this whole hybdridization things? I was told that all your skills just take the higher of whatever stat you have. So all your skills, no matter if physical or magical, will take the higher of your crit rate, magicka or stamina, and spell and weapon damage.

Is that not right?

Honestly I assumed if the ability was based on stamina it used weapon crit and vice versa for spell crit.

I could definitely be wrong though, my only parses have both minor/major prophecy and savagery. Definitely something I can look into though.

It does work based on whichever is higher, the main conflict with sorcerer (and by extension NB) is in the passives, sorcerer provides minor prophecy (spell crit) so you would want to run the spell crit potion, but if you are using a stamina spammable, you also want stam restore and currently there is no potion that does spell crit + stam restore (let alone one that does both + a bonus effect). It's the same but backwards for NB as they provide minor savagery (weapon crit) but there's no potion that does weapon crit + restore magicka.

What it all boils down to is that Hybridization was only half finished in ESO then left untouched, so there remains too many small but impactful things that need to be hybridized to catch up.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

What we really need is a rework of the mundus stones and alchemy mats to rebalance them around hybridization.

We really do. Potions are so outdated and limiting; they could either use a reform, or new plants could be added to the normal pool of plants that fill all those holes.

And I suppose I still don't understand this whole hybdridization things? I was told that all your skills just take the higher of whatever stat you have. So all your skills, no matter if physical or magical, will take the higher of your crit rate, magicka or stamina, and spell and weapon damage.

Is that not right?

Honestly I assumed if the ability was based on stamina it used weapon crit and vice versa for spell crit.

I could definitely be wrong though, my only parses have both minor/major prophecy and savagery. Definitely something I can look into though.

It does work based on whichever is higher, the main conflict with sorcerer (and by extension NB) is in the passives, sorcerer provides minor prophecy (spell crit) so you would want to run the spell crit potion, but if you are using a stamina spammable, you also want stam restore and currently there is no potion that does spell crit + stam restore (let alone one that does both + a bonus effect). It's the same but backwards for NB as they provide minor savagery (weapon crit) but there's no potion that does weapon crit + restore magicka.

What it all boils down to is that Hybridization was only half finished in ESO then left untouched, so there remains too many small but impactful things that need to be hybridized to catch up.

As a stamsorc I basically have to use spell crit potion for Major Prophecy. Kinda sucks tbh cause I'm permanently losing out on 7k stam and ~300 stam regen every 45s lol

Zabagad

At least we all agree to that "only half finished hybridization"
I also always struggle with the same problems that have been described in the last ~10 posts here.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I'm not sure how much the lack of Battle Spirit skews things, soloing resources on an empty camp like Blackreach has been my go-to for testing PvP numbers if I don't want to have to deal with other players.

I'm pretty sure that values would be a bit differnet, but in our example I'm sure too that you can get dampen > 86% if you precast it early enough. But - next time I try out that way too.

For me it looks like that we could get a really nice sorc situation if ZOS were doing both:
1) make the heal over time on ward
+
2) Change +8% maxMag on BA to major crit buffs on both bars
that we “all” here could live with?

I would be more then happy, because that would fit my playstyle even better (extreme ward precaster) and I like every slot I can use for something to experiment with. Especially with scribbing coming.
And I really don't like magelight at all, because it's only on one bar and the detection is a waste of resources.

Zabagad

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all

Can you provide the data for this? Thanks.

Another poster here showed there was a trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc, although they said it would not be statistically significant until a full cycle of data had been collected (so next week maybe).

Anecdotally, myself and others note that Sorc has become significantly more popular among the competitive crowd, with whole teams of Sorcs in BGs as noted by someone earlier ITT.

There is no accurate data that can be provided by players on any of these accounts. When are hearing in this thread from like .1 percent of the player base so please keep that in mind when even multiple people say they are seeing it one way and others see different.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Nobody other than ZOS has evidence of really anything when it comes to how this change is or isn't effecting PVP as a whole for the positive or negative. Cmx data and player recountings are just anecdotal in this case

No wonder that I disagree
I do my statistics since almost 2 years for a reason (Not just to waste my time)

First of all - In theory ZOS should ofc be able to get the best data.
But I highly doubt they're looking at that data - at least not for PvP in the last 2 years.
If they did, there's no way they could think 3% Necros vs 28% NB could somehow be fair...

With my experience in statistics I trust that my data are close enough to the real population.
There is one better method - but it needs more people which are all playing enough every month and share tha data.
At the same time even the worse methods showing quite the same results and I did many many plausibility checks for the method.
I get my data now always in the same way to prevent any bias.
I was validating the method in the first 6 month in many complicated ways - like top200 or top101-200 or top100 per alliance.
But this "easier" way was good enough and not sig different to the more complicated tries.
At the same time I see quite bigger jumps between the 4 campaigns [EU/NA]*[Grey/Black] and often bigger jumps from one month to the other in campaign A - but the opposite jump in camp B.
So the Top100 are not always the same ppl (I manually checked that in the first 6 month too) - but at the end when I put all together over 2-3 campaings of the patch, they are surprisingly robust and stable.
(The better method would be btw faster and wouldn't need 2-3 month which I need with this method to be confident to say: it's significant now)

So I know very well the limitations but as well I know how robust this method is at the same time.

Sure - it's only PC CP Cyro (I would be happy to get data from xbox/PS) and I can't say anything about duells and BGs.
Sure - there is an over/under estimation possible, but there is no reason for me to believe that this would change much over the years. So this over/under estimation should be quite the same in U35 as today and in the furture.
So assuming my 28% NB in U41 is an underestimate( because there are a lot of NB just waiting for a gank) and the real value is 30%, or if it's an overestimate (because all bombers with a lot of AP reach the top 100 easier than other classes) and the real value is 26% - this over/underestimation should be quite constant over the patches. (I know it could change, but I don't want to go too deep here)
So the difference over time should be quite accurate to the real swings and imo it doesn't even matter if the real population is 26, 28 oder 30%.
The only thing that matters is that you can see the gap to other classes and how much a value falls or rises with a new patch.

As I've said somewhere before - as a magSorc main, I trusted my data at U35 to see evidence that the Sorc was in poor condition and thus I still trust my data that the Sorc population has increased significantly (and by a substantial amount) since U41.
(Which btw imo is clearly to see as well and somehow logic too)

TechMaybeHic

I kind of find it odd that my UESP Build editor tool tip shows lower than my in game. Like over 3k lower with the Cyrodiil check mark checked than I actually get. Can't find anything I'm missing, let alone 3k worth. Usually if anything, values are slightly higher on there as the buffs are selected that might be up, yet are not always practical in game

Bushido2513

Zabagad wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all

Can you provide the data for this? Thanks.

Another poster here showed there was a trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc, although they said it would not be statistically significant until a full cycle of data had been collected (so next week maybe).

Anecdotally, myself and others note that Sorc has become significantly more popular among the competitive crowd, with whole teams of Sorcs in BGs as noted by someone earlier ITT.

There is no accurate data that can be provided by players on any of these accounts. When are hearing in this thread from like .1 percent of the player base so please keep that in mind when even multiple people say they are seeing it one way and others see different.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Nobody other than ZOS has evidence of really anything when it comes to how this change is or isn't effecting PVP as a whole for the positive or negative. Cmx data and player recountings are just anecdotal in this case

No wonder that I disagree
I do my statistics since almost 2 years for a reason (Not just to waste my time)

First of all - In theory ZOS should ofc be able to get the best data.
But I highly doubt they're looking at that data - at least not for PvP in the last 2 years.
If they did, there's no way they could think 3% Necros vs 28% NB could somehow be fair...

With my experience in statistics I trust that my data are close enough to the real population.
There is one better method - but it needs more people which are all playing enough every month and share tha data.
At the same time even the worse methods showing quite the same results and I did many many plausibility checks for the method.
I get my data now always in the same way to prevent any bias.
I was validating the method in the first 6 month in many complicated ways - like top200 or top101-200 or top100 per alliance.
But this "easier" way was good enough and not sig different to the more complicated tries.
At the same time I see quite bigger jumps between the 4 campaigns [EU/NA]*[Grey/Black] and often bigger jumps from one month to the other in campaign A - but the opposite jump in camp B.
So the Top100 are not always the same ppl (I manually checked that in the first 6 month too) - but at the end when I put all together over 2-3 campaings of the patch, they are surprisingly robust and stable.
(The better method would be btw faster and wouldn't need 2-3 month which I need with this method to be confident to say: it's significant now)

So I know very well the limitations but as well I know how robust this method is at the same time.

Sure - it's only PC CP Cyro (I would be happy to get data from xbox/PS) and I can't say anything about duells and BGs.
Sure - there is an over/under estimation possible, but there is no reason for me to believe that this would change much over the years. So this over/under estimation should be quite the same in U35 as today and in the furture.
So assuming my 28% NB in U41 is an underestimate( because there are a lot of NB just waiting for a gank) and the real value is 30%, or if it's an overestimate (because all bombers with a lot of AP reach the top 100 easier than other classes) and the real value is 26% - this over/underestimation should be quite constant over the patches. (I know it could change, but I don't want to go too deep here)
So the difference over time should be quite accurate to the real swings and imo it doesn't even matter if the real population is 26, 28 oder 30%.
The only thing that matters is that you can see the gap to other classes and how much a value falls or rises with a new patch.

As I've said somewhere before - as a magSorc main, I trusted my data at U35 to see evidence that the Sorc was in poor condition and thus I still trust my data that the Sorc population has increased significantly (and by a substantial amount) since U41.
(Which btw imo is clearly to see as well and somehow logic too)

So to be clear my comments were about data regarding the impact of ward on pvp as a whole. Yes population is one aspect of that but without the rest it's a bit of an incomplete picture. Even if we could say more sorcs are playing now we still need to know more about the sorcs that are being played and that's data only ZOS would have.

So maybe your population stats are correct even if they are a little bit off but they would still just be a piece of the puzzle in understanding the full impact of the ward change.

For instance even if we could see the growth in population we still need to know what the overall stats on average of those sorcs, what pvp zones they are playing in, k/d ratios, healing/damage stats, etc. At least I believe we would need to examine these things and more to understand how the ward change has changed pvp across all platforms for the better or worse.


In regards to zos looking at their own data I'll say no I don't think they look at it with the idea of perfecting pvp. I do think they look at enough to make reasonable decisions that fit their goal of making the game enjoyable but definitely profitable to their target audience. From my perspective this ward change falls in line with that. It makes sorc the flavor of the month and gives players a reason to come back in both pvp and pve. It's not too overbearing in gvg scenarios. It will be likely reverted, tweaked, etc to make room for the next thing they want to generate interest in.


But yes let me be specific in saying that my beliefs on player acquired data wouldn't likely extend to population data. On some level I can see how that can sort of be reverse calculated from player observations. This is something I've done before to gather my own stats when the ones I needed weren't available easily or otherwise.

Dracane

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

For me it looks like that we could get a really nice sorc situation if ZOS were doing both:
1) make the heal over time on ward
+
2) Change +8% maxMag on BA to major crit buffs on both bars
that we “all” here could live with?

For what's it worth, I can not live with this.
Can't it be another skill that fullfills this solemn duty? I like Aegis as it is, and I like Magelight as it is, too. I begged for 8 years for Aegis to finally become good for Magsorc, and it took 3, or 4? reworks until the skill was finally worth it. This sudden crusade against magicka, after having been a dead stat for years now, is very unbecoming. I will never agree to the destruction of build variety.

Bound Aegis could get a more interesting and more universally useful active effect though (maybe major crit buffs for 20 seconds?), but the passive effects are fine as they are. Maybe tanks would be upset, but I never once used the active component on a pve tank build, and I have tanked nearly everything there is.

Jsmalls

Dracane wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

For me it looks like that we could get a really nice sorc situation if ZOS were doing both:
1) make the heal over time on ward
+
2) Change +8% maxMag on BA to major crit buffs on both bars
that we “all” here could live with?

For what's it worth, I can not live with this.
Can't it be another skill that fullfills this solemn duty? I like Aegis as it is, and I like Magelight as it is, too. I begged for 8 years for Aegis to finally become good for Magsorc, and it took 3, or 4? reworks until the skill was finally worth it. This sudden crusade against magicka, after having been a dead stat for years now, is very unbecoming. I will never agree to the destruction of build variety.

Bound Aegis could get a more interesting and more universally useful active effect though (maybe major crit buffs for 20 seconds?), but the passive effects are fine as they are. Maybe tanks would be upset, but I never once used the active component on a pve tank build, and I have tanked nearly everything there is.

Yeah this change would just be a worse version of magelight.

Granted magelight only works on one bar but it would give 7% larger shields and heal for Ward (defensive buff), approximately 300 more spell damage (offensive buff), can detect enemies in stealth (functional), can activate empower for 10 seconds along with giving major Prophecy/Savagery on your more damage oriented bar.

Versus Major Prophecy/Savagery, minor protection, minor resolve, and a seldom used active.

Yeah I'll pass on that as well.

This is secretly a nerf Sorc suggestion disguised as a buff Sorc one. And this has been a suggestion from a lot of people, but is definitely an out of touch consideration for what a Mag Sorc would actually want.

Dracane

Jsmalls wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

For me it looks like that we could get a really nice sorc situation if ZOS were doing both:
1) make the heal over time on ward
+
2) Change +8% maxMag on BA to major crit buffs on both bars
that we “all” here could live with?

For what's it worth, I can not live with this.
Can't it be another skill that fullfills this solemn duty? I like Aegis as it is, and I like Magelight as it is, too. I begged for 8 years for Aegis to finally become good for Magsorc, and it took 3, or 4? reworks until the skill was finally worth it. This sudden crusade against magicka, after having been a dead stat for years now, is very unbecoming. I will never agree to the destruction of build variety.

Bound Aegis could get a more interesting and more universally useful active effect though (maybe major crit buffs for 20 seconds?), but the passive effects are fine as they are. Maybe tanks would be upset, but I never once used the active component on a pve tank build, and I have tanked nearly everything there is.

Yeah this change would just be a worse version of magelight.

Granted magelight only works on one bar but it would give 7% larger shields and heal for Ward (defensive buff), approximately 300 more spell damage (offensive buff), can detect enemies in stealth (functional), can activate empower for 10 seconds along with giving major Prophecy/Savagery on your more damage oriented bar.

Versus Major Prophecy/Savagery, minor protection, minor resolve, and a seldom used active.

Yeah I'll pass on that as well.

This is secretly a nerf Sorc suggestion disguised as a buff Sorc one. And this has been a suggestion from a lot of people, but is definitely an out of touch consideration for what a Mag Sorc would actually want.

I apologize if I awoke the impression of wanting to nerf Bound Aegis. Major Prophecy was just a random thought (because I think we have good sources of prophecy available, and I frankly don't understand the fuss about it, and neither this fascination with removing Magelight.)

I think instead of looking to change skills that already have their niche, looking at unused skills/morphs would be the wiser arsenal. Reading your post again, it seems you were in agreement with me. If so, then I am glad you do. Some of these suggestions here make me scream. Dispassionately.

DaisyRay

I've been playing a bit with a higher mag sorc, I couldn't get to 60k despite following multiple builds so idk how you all do it. Though I did manage to get to 52k mag. The healing and shield is crazy strong with higher mag. I was already surviving a little with 40k mag, but 10k more is just crazy. I can't imagine what this is like for people who are really skilled players.

It's amazing actually, probably op yeah, but I've never been able to survive that much on a sorc. I still think they should keep the shield as is and take the heals off. Make dark deal heals a little more and instant.

DaisyRay

Lol someone told me a streamer called me out and was like "If DaisyRay can survive this, then you know ward is too op." >.> Kind of an insult, but probably also fair. v.v

StaticWave

DaisyRay wrote: »

I've been playing a bit with a higher mag sorc, I couldn't get to 60k despite following multiple builds so idk how you all do it. Though I did manage to get to 52k mag. The healing and shield is crazy strong with higher mag. I was already surviving a little with 40k mag, but 10k more is just crazy. I can't imagine what this is like for people who are really skilled players.

It's amazing actually, probably op yeah, but I've never been able to survive that much on a sorc. I still think they should keep the shield as is and take the heals off. Make dark deal heals a little more and instant.

New shield makes sorc borderline unkillable when used by a skilled magsorc that knows how to survive with old shield.

For players outside of the 0.01% club it is a decent change. It still makes them extremely tanky when they are on defense though.

TechMaybeHic

Could fix the high mag stacking high shields by lowering the percent of health the shield is capped at

StaticWave

The issue isn't just the high max mag. It's a combination of high max mag, high shield value, high burst heal value, and sustain from having a high mag pool.

The 60k max mag build can reach a 16k shield tooltip. If you lower the HP cap to 60% like previously, then the cap for shield is still 18k. Even at 50%, or a 15k shield cap, the change is negligible. A magsorc with 14k shield and Rallying Cry can survive just as well as a magsorc with 16k shield and no Rallying Cry, and I would argue they can survive better. Nothing will get fixed until that burst heal is gone unfortunately.

I still stand by the solution to turn that burst heal into a HoT. Something like "if no pets are affected, you will heal for X amount over 5 seconds. This effect persists when your shield is removed". That X amount could be the current burst heal but over 5 seconds. That same 16k shield with a 9k burst heal tooltip will now heal for 500 every second over 5s, and when you spam it, you refresh the first tick and can turn it into a small 1k "burst heal", similar to how spamming Vigor can force 2 ticks to happen in the same GCD. It rewards you for preemptively using the shield, and also gives ppl the chance to kill you if you don't keep up your shield and get low.

Zabagad

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So to be clear my comments were about data regarding the impact of ward on pvp as a whole. Yes population is one aspect of that but without the rest it's a bit of an incomplete picture. Even if we could say more sorcs are playing now we still need to know more about the sorcs that are being played and that's data only ZOS would have.
[...]
For instance even if we could see the growth in population we still need to know what the overall stats on average of those sorcs, what pvp zones they are playing in, k/d ratios, healing/damage stats, etc. At least I believe we would need to examine these things and more to understand how the ward change has changed pvp across all platforms for the better or worse.
[...]
But yes let me be specific in saying that my beliefs on player acquired data wouldn't likely extend to population data. On some level I can see how that can sort of be reverse calculated from player observations. This is something I've done before to gather my own stats when the ones I needed weren't available easily or otherwise.

last part: If I understand you correctly I would say: That's the standard way of statistics. Take a "representative" sample of the population to extend it.

I understand your point, but the data you mentioned are for sure never taken by ZOS and that would lead to a stop towards any change.
At the same time it's obvious that - just to take the extrem example - necro needs buffs to be played more in Cyro.
And I see no way why any k/d-ratio or any other stats could have an impact to say: necro is almost not played, but thats healthy for .... whatever.
So - in other words - if I had to do ZOS job (just PvP), I would at least try to get all classes somehow even played.
Sure NB/Sorc would be still more played then other classes and I would accept that within a certain range.
But when I see a 3% - 28% difference - even if one class is a pay-class - I would buff one and nerf the other.
Step by step - until all classes are within an acceptable range - and all I need for this would be the population data....

Back to topic: Since it's obvious they're not looking for the data you mentioned, I see no reason for them not to change the heal to a HoT. This change cannot be so wrong as to ruin the sorc back to U35 level. (as said before - I guess this would be mor a buff to me then a nerf anyway)
It looks like the BA change is much more controversial - so I may respond to that separately.

Bushido2513

Zabagad wrote: »

So - in other words - if I had to do ZOS job (just PvP), I would at least try to get all classes somehow even played.
Sure NB/Sorc would be still more played then other classes and I would accept that within a certain range.
But when I see a 3% - 28% difference - even if one class is a pay-class - I would buff one and nerf the other.
Step by step - until all classes are within an acceptable range - and all I need for this would be the population data....

My guess is that you would then have to deal with upper management asking you why you're working on pvp when they would prefer you be working on the next chapter release or other thing that will support the most overall sales. I don't think that it's that zos isn't smart enough to realize what this game could be and how much they could make if they would actually balance pvp, it's quite clear. I think it's just that they have other priorities and so this has become about keeping enough revolving interest to generate reliable revenues.

Zabagad wrote: »

.

Back to topic: Since it's obvious they're not looking for the data you mentioned, I see no reason for them not to change the heal to a HoT. This change cannot be so wrong as to ruin the sorc back to U35 level. (as said before - I guess this would be mor a buff to me then a nerf anyway)
It looks like the BA change is much more controversial - so I may respond to that separately.

I believe they are reusing the bird heal as the heal on the shield and so it was just cheaper to reuse an existing effect/asset with a modified value and trigger than it was to insert new code. That's possibly not the reason at all but I still found it interesting that they basically used a modified bird heal for the heal on ward.

Zabagad

Dracane wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

For me it looks like that we could get a really nice sorc situation if ZOS were doing both:
1) make the heal over time on ward
+
2) Change +8% maxMag on BA to major crit buffs on both bars
that we “all” here could live with?

For what's it worth, I can not live with this.
Can't it be another skill that fullfills this solemn duty? I like Aegis as it is, and I like Magelight as it is, too. I begged for 8 years for Aegis to finally become good for Magsorc, and it took 3, or 4? reworks until the skill was finally worth it. This sudden crusade against magicka, after having been a dead stat for years now, is very unbecoming. I will never agree to the destruction of build variety.

Bound Aegis could get a more interesting and more universally useful active effect though (maybe major crit buffs for 20 seconds?), but the passive effects are fine as they are. Maybe tanks would be upset, but I never once used the active component on a pve tank build, and I have tanked nearly everything there is.

First: Your quote is wrong - it wasn't necrotech who wrote this.

So - can you please explain why you like magelight?
I hate it - and I hate that I have to slot it (or my potion is bound to crit) and then I have the crit buff+the extra mag only on one bar.
First - this forces me to put the ward on the same bar. (build variety)
Second - My maxMag is different on the bars which comes with some negative problems - for example if I start the fight on the other bar or after I swap to that bar when the mag is only at ~90%. This often shrinks my build variety too.
Third: How often have you detect someone with the skill itself? I can clearly say that you need really much luck and in a mean it's much much to expensive for this small radius. So I never use it unless I have no other option available - are on 100% mag and have a "feeling" or are bored. I guess I have never detected somebody - maybe 1-2 times since the patch where they "buffed" it from 6m to 8m.... (~U37?)

Then - the BA change was suggested by Turtle(?) to dampen the maximum mag problem.
BA would be still good for magSorcs and I guess that it would be still a standard skill on magSorcs in PvP. (~80-90%)
If they put major crit buffs on any other skill, sorc would be buffed even further and the idea was to change the max mag problem (curse) with a (kiss) on the other site to get one "free" skillslot. (and this opens even more build variety)

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is secretly a nerf Sorc suggestion disguised as a buff Sorc one. And this has been a suggestion from a lot of people, but is definitely an out of touch consideration for what a Mag Sorc would actually want.

I don't think that it was "secretly" a nerf Sorc suggestion. It was clearly explained, that this would lead to much less max Mag stacking (-8% and -7%) - with the benefit of a free slot. So sure it was not "what a Mag Sorc would actually want" - it was an compromise to the "nerf ward" discussion.
Btw: When Turtle mentioned it the first time, I wasn't in favour of it myself and if I remember correctly he was using an or between that and the HoT solution and it was just me with an and.

If there wouldn't be the possible PvE tanks, I would like the idea of:
+X% mag, minor protection, minor resolve, and a used active major Prophecy/Savagery for a cheaper price.
(X <= 8; to be discussed)
So you could still slot both BA+mageLight, but we could get a free slot if we want.
But I guess there are (many?) tanks out there which use the active part?
I never used it (on will )...

Zabagad

Bushido2513 wrote: »

My guess is that you would then have to deal with upper management asking you why you're working on pvp when they would prefer you be working on the next chapter release or other thing that will support the most overall sales.

Sure - it was just in case they pay somebody for balance

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I believe they are reusing the bird heal as the heal on the shield and so it was just cheaper to reuse an existing effect/asset with a modified value and trigger than it was to insert new code. That's possibly not the reason at all but I still found it interesting that they basically used a modified bird heal for the heal on ward.

I thought only the animation - but maybe you are right and it was just another call of a function with a smaller value as the variable...

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

I still stand by the solution to turn that burst heal into a HoT. Something like "if no pets are affected, you will heal for X amount over 5 seconds. This effect persists when your shield is removed". That X amount could be the current burst heal but over 5 seconds. That same 16k shield with a 9k burst heal tooltip will now heal for 500 every second over 5s, and when you spam it, you refresh the first tick and can turn it into a small 1k "burst heal", similar to how spamming Vigor can force 2 ticks to happen in the same GCD. It rewards you for preemptively using the shield, and also gives ppl the chance to kill you if you don't keep up your shield and get low.

wb

Like I said, I'm in favour of this solution - but like I also said, you can still make videos/posts with "Sorc is doing 8+K HPS".
(Yes I know the burst would be gone - it's just a friendly side slash towards your way to prove "ward OP"... )

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still stand by the solution to turn that burst heal into a HoT. Something like "if no pets are affected, you will heal for X amount over 5 seconds. This effect persists when your shield is removed". That X amount could be the current burst heal but over 5 seconds. That same 16k shield with a 9k burst heal tooltip will now heal for 500 every second over 5s, and when you spam it, you refresh the first tick and can turn it into a small 1k "burst heal", similar to how spamming Vigor can force 2 ticks to happen in the same GCD. It rewards you for preemptively using the shield, and also gives ppl the chance to kill you if you don't keep up your shield and get low.

wb

Like I said, I'm in favour of this solution - but like I also said, you can still make videos/posts with "Sorc is doing 8+K HPS".
(Yes I know the burst would be gone - it's just a friendly side slash towards your way to prove "ward OP"... )

Lol, they are doing 8k HPS in a damage build.

It's easy to survive 8k HPS if you build for it. It's not easy to survive 8k HPS if you don't build for it. Not many classes can survive that kind of damage unless they purposely build for it. Sorc is doing 8k HPS in a damage build. That's the issue you aren't understanding.

We could go on and on but can you name me 1 spec with the capability to tank 7k DPS while having high damage, high mobility, and high sustain? Templar has to sit in Rune + Ritual to tank 7k DPS. Warden has to build 50k HP with Polar Wind to tank 7k DPS. Meanwhile magsorc is chilling with 55k max mag and can tank 7k DPS, or Streak 10x in a row if they want to. There's no debate here.

You going too in depth to prove me and @xylena_lazarow about how we can "cheese" the CMX data is factually wrong. All my data has been taken from duels and I've shown several screenshots of my Sorc tanking 7k DPS from a DK in an actual fight. I could run into the same DK in Cyrodiil or BG and it wouldn't make a difference. Heck, I could even Streak 10x in a row and reset the fight at will since I'm no longer bound by the dueling radius restriction. Can a Warden or Templar reset the fight like that with their kit? Certainly not. They have to slot Mist Form and even then they can't use it 10x in a row lol.