Magicka Sorcerer PvP Domination!

StaticWave · February 24

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly I would only consider this to be broken when the heal was so strong you could take streak off the bar and replace it with a generic cc then take on two similar or better skilled players without much of an issue.

As long as sorc has to lean on streak, has bar space issues, etc then I think it's still sorc.

Maybe I'm jaded from all the Arcanist abuse and the spec bows 😂, I can admit that!

Lol so you don’t think a 11k shield with a 6.5k heal tooltip (3-4k under battle spirit) is broken? I can’t convince you then lol.

I was just online yesterday to PvP in MYM with a bunch of friends. I was the only DPS Sorc in the group. We had a NB, a DK, a Plar, and a healer Sorc. Literally all of us had to utilize kiting to survive against the massive zergs we encountered. But you know the difference? I could Streak away from those fights at will, while my friends have to run around LoS for basically the entire fight because the moment they move away from it they die. I could also LoS with them too if I chose.

That’s why Sorc is still one of, if not the best 1vX class. There’s just no contest unfortunately. Next patch? Even more so with Ward buff and Encase.

Fyi, here are some bar setups you could actually use next patch to be super tanky and still have damage, and still have a stun:

Micah_Bayer · February 25

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Can't wait to see basically an arcanist with more mobility, and better burst rather than cleave. I don't see the problem here

I believe arcanist shields will still be larger.

Turtle_Bot · February 25

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly I would only consider this to be broken when the heal was so strong you could take streak off the bar and replace it with a generic cc then take on two similar or better skilled players without much of an issue.

As long as sorc has to lean on streak, has bar space issues, etc then I think it's still sorc.

Maybe I'm jaded from all the Arcanist abuse and the spec bows 😂, I can admit that!

Lol so you don’t think a 11k shield with a 6.5k heal tooltip (3-4k under battle spirit) is broken? I can’t convince you then lol.

I was just online yesterday to PvP in MYM with a bunch of friends. I was the only DPS Sorc in the group. We had a NB, a DK, a Plar, and a healer Sorc. Literally all of us had to utilize kiting to survive against the massive zergs we encountered. But you know the difference? I could Streak away from those fights at will, while my friends have to run around LoS for basically the entire fight because the moment they move away from it they die. I could also LoS with them too if I chose.

That’s why Sorc is still one of, if not the best 1vX class. There’s just no contest unfortunately. Next patch? Even more so with Ward buff and Encase.

Fyi, here are some bar setups you could actually use next patch to be super tanky and still have damage, and still have a stun:

What still keeps me from saying the changes are far too much (outside of max mag stacking which I have suggested a fix for multiple times) is the following:

A sorc still needs to slot a defensive ultimate on the back bar (as seen in your suggested bar layouts).

DK's still need to slot leap/corrosive (offense/defense mix), warden with trees, arcanist with shield (offense/defense mix), plar with sword and board/heal and necro with goliath. These classes will be just like sorc which will still need to slot sword and board, undo or resto ulti on the back bar.

The only class in the game right now that can get away without a defensive ultimate is NB (tether is not a defensive ultimate, at least not the morph that NB's that aren't PvE healers use) and without proper testing on the live servers, I still don't see that situation changing at all next patch.

Until I see majority of average/below skilled players being able to get away with overload back + DB front and relying exclusively on streak + ward only for defense while performing to the level of above average players, I still only really see these changes to sorc as finally catching up to the other classes in terms of defensive capabilities/options (once again, outside of max mag stacking, which is the same as max health stacking on wardens/arcanists).

This doesn't mean that sorc in the hands of top players won't be very powerful (which tbf is the case on live already for all classes, even necro/plar due to how big the skill gap is for PvP), but sorc will at least be on par with the other classes for everyone else (majority of the player base) instead of just being cannon fodder due to having a very mediocre and unforgiving defensive kit, and that is a good thing to get more playing the class again, especially in PvP.

Seeing what is happening this MYM, I guarantee that the vast majority will jump on sorc for about a week next patch, realise that it still takes a lot of skill/effort to play the class to a high standard (especially in terms of getting kills while being tanky), and will immediately switch back to NB, DK, warden or arcanist because those are easier to play, while the sorc mains (and those few that stay with the class) will get to enjoy a few more tools/options at their disposal for staying alive.

Also, as I said before, an 11k shield with a 3-4k heal (14-15k total "health gain") is on par with every single other class's burst heal that scales off raw damage (typically those sit at a 14-15k heal on a viable build). What gets problematic is pure max mag stacking where the shield gets very large (which is the same for polar wardens/arcanists on live that health stack). This can be easily fixed with changes I suggested in other threads on reworking BA/morphs that caps those builds to around 50-55k max mag, bringing the shield much more inline with everything else given the sacrifices made to get there.

The reason it seems so strong is because sorc hasn't had this kind of defense since way, way back in the day when shield stacking was the way to play the class and healing + hardened ward was actually that strong (before healing ward got mega nerfed). Sorc mains have since adapted (or moved on to other classes), however, the rest of the game has also long since caught up to/surpassed those levels of power for defensive kits so it's about time that sorc was un-nerfed and brought back up alongside the rest of the classes in terms of defensive tools.

taugrim · February 26

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Can't wait to see basically an arcanist with more mobility, and better burst rather than cleave. I don't see the problem here

I believe arcanist shields will still be larger.

Arcanist is already imbalanced in its current state. That's why I shelved my Stamarc 4 months ago. It was a unique playstyle but too strong. I play Stamplar because it's not imbalanced.

And even if Arcanist shields are still larger than Sorc's with the upcoming update, Arcanist's teleport class skill pales in comparison to Sorc. So Sorc will have very strong shields that heal and the best mobility skill in the game.

Sorc will be FOTM for a while until ZoS realizes how imbalanced the planned Sorc changes are. I do want to see Sorc get better access to healing, but providing stronger shielding + healing seems like a laughably bad balancing decision.

StaticWave · February 26

taugrim wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Can't wait to see basically an arcanist with more mobility, and better burst rather than cleave. I don't see the problem here

I believe arcanist shields will still be larger.

Arcanist is already imbalanced in its current state. That's why I shelved my Stamarc 4 months ago. It was a unique playstyle but too strong. I play Stamplar because it's not imbalanced.

And even if Arcanist shields are still larger than Sorc's with the upcoming update, Arcanist's teleport class skill pales in comparison to Sorc. So Sorc will have very strong shields that heal and the best mobility skill in the game.

Sorc will be FOTM for a while until ZoS realizes how imbalanced the planned Sorc changes are. I do want to see Sorc get better access to healing, but providing stronger shielding + healing seems like a laughably bad balancing decision.

lol I'm glad I'm not the only one opposing the change

Bushido2513 · February 26

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly I would only consider this to be broken when the heal was so strong you could take streak off the bar and replace it with a generic cc then take on two similar or better skilled players without much of an issue.

As long as sorc has to lean on streak, has bar space issues, etc then I think it's still sorc.

Maybe I'm jaded from all the Arcanist abuse and the spec bows 😂, I can admit that!

Lol so you don’t think a 11k shield with a 6.5k heal tooltip (3-4k under battle spirit) is broken? I can’t convince you then lol.

I was just online yesterday to PvP in MYM with a bunch of friends. I was the only DPS Sorc in the group. We had a NB, a DK, a Plar, and a healer Sorc. Literally all of us had to utilize kiting to survive against the massive zergs we encountered. But you know the difference? I could Streak away from those fights at will, while my friends have to run around LoS for basically the entire fight because the moment they move away from it they die. I could also LoS with them too if I chose.

That’s why Sorc is still one of, if not the best 1vX class. There’s just no contest unfortunately. Next patch? Even more so with Ward buff and Encase.

Fyi, here are some bar setups you could actually use next patch to be super tanky and still have damage, and still have a stun:

So I have been in several large battles in IC lately obviously because of mayhem and you know why I can't say this is more busted than anything else? Barely anyone was really dying outside of getting bombed. I was targeting players on various classes and just watching their health bar go back up almost regardless of their actions.

You're correct if you small scale against a zerg you have to run, cloak, los, streak etc but here's why I don't worry about sorc.

I played solo all yesterday and honestly I rarely die due to being tanky and fast while having enough damage to hurt or kill all but the tankiest of players. That being said I either died to being basically targeted by multiple players out of stealth, large coordinated groups using negate, or the bomb I was in the wrong place for.

I have large shields now so this change would add the heal but what I'm saying is that the heal would only change my survivability a bit meaning instead of 2 NB hitting me out of stealth 3 might or that if 15 players focus me they might need a little more damage. The bomb would probably still kill me.

I'm more so saying that in the intended group v group scenarios this heal wouldn't change the outcome much and that's really what pvp is geared towards these days in my opinion.

1vx, xv1, small scale, are just their own thing but not really something the combat team cares much about because they would just say if you don't like being in an imbalanced fight then group up.

So this shield might look interesting outside of group v group but in current group v group I think it's going to be in line with the rest, not that I'm happy with where we are, I'm just not going to hate on sorc joining the party.

Thanks for the bar setups, it's not how I play mine currently but I might try something like these next patch

Micah_Bayer · February 28

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly I would only consider this to be broken when the heal was so strong you could take streak off the bar and replace it with a generic cc then take on two similar or better skilled players without much of an issue.

As long as sorc has to lean on streak, has bar space issues, etc then I think it's still sorc.

Maybe I'm jaded from all the Arcanist abuse and the spec bows 😂, I can admit that!

Lol so you don’t think a 11k shield with a 6.5k heal tooltip (3-4k under battle spirit) is broken? I can’t convince you then lol.

I was just online yesterday to PvP in MYM with a bunch of friends. I was the only DPS Sorc in the group. We had a NB, a DK, a Plar, and a healer Sorc. Literally all of us had to utilize kiting to survive against the massive zergs we encountered. But you know the difference? I could Streak away from those fights at will, while my friends have to run around LoS for basically the entire fight because the moment they move away from it they die. I could also LoS with them too if I chose.

That’s why Sorc is still one of, if not the best 1vX class. There’s just no contest unfortunately. Next patch? Even more so with Ward buff and Encase.

Fyi, here are some bar setups you could actually use next patch to be super tanky and still have damage, and still have a stun:

So I have been in several large battles in IC lately obviously because of mayhem and you know why I can't say this is more busted than anything else? Barely anyone was really dying outside of getting bombed. I was targeting players on various classes and just watching their health bar go back up almost regardless of their actions.

You're correct if you small scale against a zerg you have to run, cloak, los, streak etc but here's why I don't worry about sorc.

I played solo all yesterday and honestly I rarely die due to being tanky and fast while having enough damage to hurt or kill all but the tankiest of players. That being said I either died to being basically targeted by multiple players out of stealth, large coordinated groups using negate, or the bomb I was in the wrong place for.

I have large shields now so this change would add the heal but what I'm saying is that the heal would only change my survivability a bit meaning instead of 2 NB hitting me out of stealth 3 might or that if 15 players focus me they might need a little more damage. The bomb would probably still kill me.

I'm more so saying that in the intended group v group scenarios this heal wouldn't change the outcome much and that's really what pvp is geared towards these days in my opinion.

1vx, xv1, small scale, are just their own thing but not really something the combat team cares much about because they would just say if you don't like being in an imbalanced fight then group up.

So this shield might look interesting outside of group v group but in current group v group I think it's going to be in line with the rest, not that I'm happy with where we are, I'm just not going to hate on sorc joining the party.

Thanks for the bar setups, it's not how I play mine currently but I might try something like these next patch

I agree with this. Group play it wouldn't change much.

Aces-High-82 · March 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

All iterations of Sorc will be S tier next patch. I’m not looking forward to fighting Sorcs that can tank like a NB/DK while having unmatched mobility, and I’m a sorc main.

There will be more sorcs that's for sure because when something gets a buff people will just get on it if only just to try the new thing but it will level out because people will still want to play other classes that can do just the same or better.

I'm pretty sure for me this will just even the playing field and allow me to push the limits a bit more but I don't see it becoming any more op than other current class offerings.

I'm actually looking forward to possibly having different types of off meta builds that might work better due to the stats and defense being added.

It will be OP defensively though. Just to give you an idea of what I mean, here are 2 screenshots of my build on the live server vs on PTS in No CP:

Live server:

PTS:

The editor doesn't include the 10% max mag & stam, so I have to manually include them:

On the live server I'm using Hardened Ward as a pseudo burst heal and heal with Crystal Weapon weaving + Vigor and Crit Surge. Only weakness is no burst heal but that's taken care of with a 42k HP pool + 9.7k shield and block casting (11k with Bastion). I run this build for all PvP content. Most people struggle to heal with it because it's counter-intuitive and requires you to play unorthodoxically. Once you get used to the rotation it has very strong defensive power.

On PTS, I lose almost 3k HP, but I gained 2k more stam & mag, so more damage, and still have almost 40k HP. Shield drops to 9k in No CP (10.5k with Bastion), and I get a 5.9k burst heal (6.7k with Focused Mending). I do more damage and still retain a decent HP buffer. The difference is I am now nearly invincible because PTS Hardened Ward solves the only weakness I have. At 40k HP with a 10k shield and extremely strong offensive healing, how do you expect to kill a decent player running this build when they can also heal for 3k-4k every time they cast Hardened Ward?

And it's not like I'm sacrificing much of my offensive stats either. In No CP, I still have 6.2k WD before Balorgh, 38% crit rate, 88% crit damage, 18k pen before balorgh, 24k stam, and 10% dmg done from Essence Thief. With this much HP and healing power, I can go infused back bar (and I have), and pump that WD up to 6.4k and STILL be really hard to kill.

Even for an average player with suboptimal shield uptime, they're going to still be extremely hard to kill because every time they get low, they're going to spam the shield and get back to full. You will need to actually 1 shot them to have a chance at killing them.

All I'm saying is, the burst heal may not be a good decision. Turning it into a HoT would be a better choice while still giving Sorc the buff they need.

Can you please provide a link for the editor?
Ty in advance

S0rwizard · March 5

idk if u want the editor or the build

here u have the editor https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

LittlePinkDot · March 9

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

All I'm saying is, the burst heal may not be a good decision. Turning it into a HoT would be a better choice while still giving Sorc the buff they need.

I'll easily say that in a 1v1 it sounds like it could be op but then again it's about as op as any other class that can be hard to kill 1v1. I mean what you're describing sounds like my experience fighting a decent player on a decent build on most classes.

But that being said I thought of this exact thing when I was in IC last night and a Procanist and hard hitting nbs were chasing me. Mind you they could keep up even after three streaks repeatedly.

Procanist immobilized, added dots then cc'd and NB hit me with a bow and then Procanist pulled the execute and that was that. I'm actually pretty tanky and pretty fast but my point is that people will do what they currently do to hard to kill players, call a friend, then call another friend, run cheese, etc.

It's going to be the same as with other classes. Five mediocre people will struggle to kill this build and 10 will kill it while 2 good coordinated players will probably nuke it or at least create so much pressure a response isn't possible.

To me this just lines up with the current state of pvp when looking at the other classes that have similar ability.

Honestly this to me just seems like there will now be a few tougher fights that I won't have to immediately run away from and that I might get away from when it comes to becoming outnumbered.

But overall I'm going to call it and say this isn't going to really make sorc op but just more playable and in line with other classes that perform at the same or higher levels.

Sure, I mean after all, I've done the testing on PTS. I'm not going to convince you or anyone here for that matter because most of yall haven't been on the PTS to know why it's going to be broken.

The fact of the matter though, is I can tank pretty much any class on live server that isn't using Jeralls, and that's done with good old Rally or live Hardened Ward. I'm not even specifically talking about 1v1s. I'm talking about all scenarios.

Sorc WILL become another stalemate class and that's going to be a fact too. You can take my word for it, or you can see it for yourself. I mean, even though I oppose the changes, I'm still going to enjoy several months of this class being absolutely broken. But I know now the Sorc mains on the forums are just as biased as NB mains lol. At this point is sounds like the sorc mains on the forums are so desperate for a buff they refuse to accept the changes will be too much.

Should I drop resto staff heal for hardened ward for my stam sorc then??

Fyi I'm not good at block casting. And I use shrouded daggers and whirling blades for damage.

Don't know how you can stay close enough to anybody for long enough to kill them. Seems impossible to me without ranged or AOE abilities.

katorga · March 11

NB still better by a long shot. I tend to play the same build on sorc/NB, NB always does better. Same race, CP, sets. My NB has barely enough skill points for 2 weapon lines, and lacks undaunted, legerdemain, mages guild, soul magic lines and it still out performs my sorc, lol, but that is mostly because the class is totally overloaded and Merciless Resolve does more damage than most ultimates.

My Sorc has streak, but less movement speed, and my NB is at movement speed cap. Mobility is a wash between the two. Both can kite very well.

FWIW, I'm just happy to not have to slot a pet for a burst heal this patch!

Jsmalls · March 11

Welcome to Elder Sorc Online, cuz if they don't streak 4 times away then they are probably a nightblade and stealthed away. I hope it's the novelty of the buff, don't need all these fotm Sorcs around everywhere.

StaticWave · March 12

Sorc tanking 7k DPS on live server after update. So much for PTS testing lol

Luede · March 12

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

xylena_lazarow · March 12

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorcs and NBs should absolutely not be surviving like DKs and Templars, unless we want to also give all the other classes access to Cloak, Streak, and massive burst damage. Another nail in the class identify coffin.

TechMaybeHic · March 12

I just want to know; did they not fix the overload desync bug?

Had several times last night where my health is good, I go to do a dawnbreaker, it starts to animate but then reverses course, no ultimate goes, look and see my health still full, just to see screen turn gray then health drop

Might be me. I was noticing ranged target abilities not wanting to fire then my character hitch a bit so looked like position desync as well

Luede · March 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorcs and NBs should absolutely not be surviving like DKs and Templars, unless we want to also give all the other classes access to Cloak, Streak, and massive burst damage. Another nail in the class identify coffin.

then become a vampire and benefit from a streak without ramping costs

xylena_lazarow · March 12

Luede wrote: »

then become a vampire and benefit from a streak without ramping costs

It does ramp, and on top of that was nerfed into the ground with a cast delay, but that has nothing to do with the problem of taking highly mobile glass cannon classes and removing the intended drawback that kept them balanced.

StaticWave · March 12

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

Luede · March 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

then become a vampire and benefit from a streak without ramping costs

It does ramp, and on top of that was nerfed into the ground with a cast delay, but that has nothing to do with the problem of taking highly mobile glass cannon classes and removing the intended drawback that kept them balanced.

my mistake, that was new to me

Luede · March 12

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

StaticWave · March 12

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

jaws343 · March 12

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

Or, maybe an external healing skill being mandatory on a class for survival has been the problem all along. First it was healing ward, then rapid regen, and vigor. Never any actual skill in the actual sorc skill lines because none of them were ever reliable.

Skills from non class skill lines should be complimentary to class skills or specific builds, not mandatory for the class to even function.

xylena_lazarow · March 12

Luede wrote: »

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly. I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp.

Proc sets aren't even in the discussion anymore. These Sorcs run stat (it's almost like procs were never the problem).

The 4k number is what minmax open world builds generally hit in a 1v1, more than enough to kill most players. It's one thing for a brawler DK to tank that amount of damage, but a damage spec Sorc doing that? Without Vigor?

Luede · March 12

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

StaticWave · March 12

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

Or, maybe an external healing skill being mandatory on a class for survival has been the problem all along. First it was healing ward, then rapid regen, and vigor. Never any actual skill in the actual sorc skill lines because none of them were ever reliable.

Skills from non class skill lines should be complimentary to class skills or specific builds, not mandatory for the class to even function.

But every class is using it no? What makes Sorc that special it’s allowed to tank 4-5k DPS without Vigor?

katorga · March 12

It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

Trade offs are not the program any more. ZOS has been consistently removing "trade offs".

Their stated goal was that all classes can perform all roles, and they have been making those changes over the last few years. End result - every class, Necro's excepted

, can be tanky, with massive healing, and good damage. Some classes are a lot better at it than others, but that is the way it is.

StaticWave · March 12

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

So you’re telling me if every class but Sorc drops Vigor, they can also tank 4k DPS? Please prove that to me right now. I can’t believe I’m hearing this lolol

jaws343 · March 12

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

Or, maybe an external healing skill being mandatory on a class for survival has been the problem all along. First it was healing ward, then rapid regen, and vigor. Never any actual skill in the actual sorc skill lines because none of them were ever reliable.

Skills from non class skill lines should be complimentary to class skills or specific builds, not mandatory for the class to even function.

But every class is using it no? What makes Sorc that special it’s allowed to tank 4-5k DPS without Vigor?

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:

There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

So you’re telling me if every class but Sorc drops Vigor, it can also tank 4k DPS? Please prove that to me right now. I can’t believe I’m hearing this lolol

Sooo, if sorc can do this with Vigor it isn't a problem. But because sorc can now do this self suffiviently with in class options, it is a problem.

Your argument makes zero sense here. The end result for either is the same level of survivability. Which is the point. Sorcs have been paper thin relying on HOTs that don't even function with their defensive capabilities properly and no way to get out of execute effectively. Unlike every other class with a reliable burst heal (or invisibility that allows them to completely disengage).

Sorcs being brought up to par with the rest of the playing field isn't a problem.

xylena_lazarow · March 12

Luede wrote: »

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

Spoken like someone who has never looked at their Combat Metrics and has never dueled.