The burst heal from Sorcerer's Conjured Ward and its morphs needs to be value capped

StaticWave

ilawana wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait until you realize magsorc can also run charged asylum staff with crushing shock + bound armaments and proc multiple sundered + other status effects, while having 45k-50k max mag. Magsorc is arguably one of the best classes to utilize the new status effect changes due to how many instances of direct dmg it has.

I am sure that magblade will still get better use out of the changes, and I would argue that they will still have a easier time taking that damage than Sorc, considering they already have better survivability than Sorc and are also getting buffed.

Not at all. Consider the fact that each instance of dmg has its own chance of proccing status effects. That’s why charged is generally better with Crushing Shock because there are 3 instances of dmg on Crushing Shock vs 1 on other spammables.

Sorc has Bound Armaments which has 4 instances of dmg. Each can proc Sundered. Then you also have Curse as well that can be layered with Crushing Shock + Bound Armaments. Sorc is one of the few classes than will benefit the most from the status effect changes.

Of course that isn’t the concern of the thread. The concern is how strong Hardened Ward is next patch.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Some of you are bound and determined to get this nerfed before it ever even hits live servers and actually gets really tested lol.

We just went through this with the new DK set Basalt Warrior last pts and what happened after the cries it was too op? Nerfed before it hit live and was actually really tested and now not one person is running that “OP” set.

Testing it before it gets to live and addressing it is kind of the point of PTS. Not the players fault of it gets overly nerfedd and then pushed out

There's testing and giving feedback and then there's pushing an agenda based on preconceived notions regardless of any other facts or information.

Some people give the pts way more weight than it deserves as testing tool and some use it to just push ideas they already had regardless of validity.

In this case it's hard to test exactly how this change will work because you need to see it in actual combat scenarios it is intended to function in and not just the 1v1 or overall with the same small testing group.

Testing on pts is really for larger more noticeable issues that easily stand out.

I wouldn't use the word fault exactly but would say that if ZOS relies on players for good feedback then it would be somewhat up to players to try to provide quality feedback.

What happened last time they ignored pts users, and ignored that Jerrell's is broken. Jerrells still never got a nerf xD its still broken.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So was able to duel some higher tiered players in the dueling community the other day.

This consisted of Templar, DK, Warden, and Arcanist.

For the most part I believe they were running similar setups across most characters with Asylum and Draugrkin(don't quote me on this) to take advantage of the new status effect changes.

Now the build I listed pictures of is very much an open world PvP build and is not meant for dueling alas I gave it a shot.

I lost probably 9/10 of the duels (as expected) but what needs to be noted is I was able to tank an average of 5.5k DPS while still dishing out over 3k DPS on my side (I'm more of a burst kill player but I do have decent sustained DPS) for on average a 4-5 minute fight.

Now I would consider myself a better than average player. But what needs to be discussed is how much a player should be able to handle DPS wise. Now I'm not in any way shape or form involved in the dueling community so would like others opinions that are.

The new ward being able to handle 5.5k DPS while still being offensive enough for 3k DPS. What are the opinions / thoughts on this.

But once again I lost 9/10 fights granted on a non optimal dueling setup, not taking advantage of this patches buffs to status effects.

Lol handling 5.5k dps while doing 3k 🤣🤣 4.5k DPS is enough to kill 99.9% of players, at least from my experience dueling.

I mean i already knew the outcome lol. I created this thread to warn about this. Several top-tier magsorcs i know have even said they won’t be killed next patch due to this shield change lol.

But judging from the responses I don’t think ppl want the shield change to be addressed. So enjoy several months of being unkillable haha

And yet if they play the game at some point they will end up seeing a death recap I'm sure.

There isn't really an unkillable spec in this game. I don't count running away because that's just how that works.

I mean it's already hard to kill more than a few classes/specs in the game, how would this be any different?

Nb can heal up and disappear.
Warden can super heal up.
Do can block heal and heal off of ult .
Templar can have multiple heals and block
Necro, tanky is all they have left.
Arcanist, nuf said.

Any of these can be anywhere from hard to kill to almost Nosferatu zombie undead hard to kill.

At this point we're clearly getting in line more than going down uncharted territory.

I'm fairly survivable now so for me this is less about being op than it if possibly having better answers to some heavier 1vx scenarios, cheese, spec bows, templar executes, etc.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's wild that they took the most OP part of Arcanist's kit (Impervious), removed the crux requirement, and slapped it on Mag Sorc with mag scaling.

At least Arcs have to stack health and have 3 crux to make Impervious busted.

They're not exactly 1:1.

Impervious Runeward has 2 shields + the heal that stacks based on crux spent (also deals magic damage to an attacker and Arc has a shield scaling passive). I'd have to see 2 builds optimized for their versions of the shield, but based on the tooltip alone, Impervious looks like it scales the heal and upfront shield higher, with the 2nd shield lower. Obviously they have to go for health instead of mag, but that has its own pro's/con's.

Based on what @Turtle_Bot showed, the 65k mag build they attempted had terrible sustain, crit, and pen. I feel like they would constantly be running away or heavy attacking, with very little actual kill potential.

I think what will happen is more well rounded builds like Static showed, but they're still giving up some of the most broken sets right now to do it.

Idk, I don't play mag Sorc in pvp or ESO lately at all to comment properly, I just find it hard to believe a 3-5k heal proc is going to make a gigantic difference when Sorc has been complaining about shields being outdated for 5 years? I'd like some Mag Sorc mains to comment on it.

They are magsorc mains xD. Time will tell when everyone switches to sorc, and the problem becomes more noticeable.

They literally are on pts every day testing. I trust static 1000%.

I have no doubt that Statics limited testing is authentic but it still needs to be seen as just that, limited. Drawing conclusions on pieces of the picture will possibly yield incomplete conclusions.

There's just no way to see the full picture on this one.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So was able to duel some higher tiered players in the dueling community the other day.

This consisted of Templar, DK, Warden, and Arcanist.

For the most part I believe they were running similar setups across most characters with Asylum and Draugrkin(don't quote me on this) to take advantage of the new status effect changes.

Now the build I listed pictures of is very much an open world PvP build and is not meant for dueling alas I gave it a shot.

I lost probably 9/10 of the duels (as expected) but what needs to be noted is I was able to tank an average of 5.5k DPS while still dishing out over 3k DPS on my side (I'm more of a burst kill player but I do have decent sustained DPS) for on average a 4-5 minute fight.

Now I would consider myself a better than average player. But what needs to be discussed is how much a player should be able to handle DPS wise. Now I'm not in any way shape or form involved in the dueling community so would like others opinions that are.

The new ward being able to handle 5.5k DPS while still being offensive enough for 3k DPS. What are the opinions / thoughts on this.

But once again I lost 9/10 fights granted on a non optimal dueling setup, not taking advantage of this patches buffs to status effects.

Lol handling 5.5k dps while doing 3k 🤣🤣 4.5k DPS is enough to kill 99.9% of players, at least from my experience dueling.

I mean i already knew the outcome lol. I created this thread to warn about this. Several top-tier magsorcs i know have even said they won’t be killed next patch due to this shield change lol.

But judging from the responses I don’t think ppl want the shield change to be addressed. So enjoy several months of being unkillable haha

And yet if they play the game at some point they will end up seeing a death recap I'm sure.

There isn't really an unkillable spec in this game. I don't count running away because that's just how that works.

I mean it's already hard to kill more than a few classes/specs in the game, how would this be any different?

Nb can heal up and disappear.
Warden can super heal up.
Do can block heal and heal off of ult .
Templar can have multiple heals and block
Necro, tanky is all they have left.
Arcanist, nuf said.

Any of these can be anywhere from hard to kill to almost Nosferatu zombie undead hard to kill.

At this point we're clearly getting in line more than going down uncharted territory.

I'm fairly survivable now so for me this is less about being op than it if possibly having better answers to some heavier 1vx scenarios, cheese, spec bows, templar executes, etc.

I think we are just getting another tanky class, thats going to be hard to kill. I guess you made 1 point clear. Atleast sorc can be considered tanky like the rest of the classes.

Tank meta major L

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

Sorc main here telling you that sorc is too strong, Devs take the hint

Glad everyone that will be playing the class will be a sorc main that can play this build as well as Static can, oh wait they all aren't and all can't.

To put that in perspective I've seen amazing players make something look interesting/ amazing. Does that mean it needs a nerf even if the majority won't or can't make use of it?

Also this has been tested in a limited scenario. It's not even really being tested in the way it's intended to be used.

ZOS doesn't care about the 1v1 so pretty much all of the 1v1 data isn't really useful.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

Sorc main here telling you that sorc is too strong, Devs take the hint

Glad everyone that will be playing the class will be a sorc main that can play this build as well as Static can, oh wait they all aren't and all can't.

To put that in perspective I've seen amazing players make something look interesting/ amazing. Does that mean it needs a nerf even if the majority won't or can't make use of it?

Also this has been tested in a limited scenario. It's not even really being tested in the way it's intended to be used.

ZOS doesn't care about the 1v1 so pretty much all of the 1v1 data isn't really useful.

I mean, if you want to be completely honest, the only data they truly care about is crown store items. They can give a rats tail end about anything PvP related. Unless its a game breaking bug and even then.

For 1 major example, a big QoL update, and at this point I'll take an entire pts cycle just for this simple change. Fix the Stuck in combat bug in PvP. Here we are at year 10 and still nothing.

Another example, Jerells was going to be busted in group content and 1v1s, they ignored it and it's still a meta set right now. Most people will give you a list of why your bad for using it but still its another crutch set, that was completely ignored by everyone on the pts.

Ok, another example, Me, Dekrypted, Quasi and several other people were on the forums around the time Jabs was changed and Backlash was nerfed. We had clips and complaints on PTS, that the nerf was too much. Did they care? Nope, they responded to Dekrypted 2 patch cycles after the fact and Told him, (We haven't closed the door on templar yet). <- that was a little over a year ago, and templar to this day still has nothing.

So really, PTS now is just a place for ppl to test and theory craft on to be completely honest. The only feedback they want is bugs with crown items and new cosmetics.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's wild that they took the most OP part of Arcanist's kit (Impervious), removed the crux requirement, and slapped it on Mag Sorc with mag scaling.

At least Arcs have to stack health and have 3 crux to make Impervious busted.

They're not exactly 1:1.

Impervious Runeward has 2 shields + the heal that stacks based on crux spent (also deals magic damage to an attacker and Arc has a shield scaling passive). I'd have to see 2 builds optimized for their versions of the shield, but based on the tooltip alone, Impervious looks like it scales the heal and upfront shield higher, with the 2nd shield lower. Obviously they have to go for health instead of mag, but that has its own pro's/con's.

Based on what @Turtle_Bot showed, the 65k mag build they attempted had terrible sustain, crit, and pen. I feel like they would constantly be running away or heavy attacking, with very little actual kill potential.

I think what will happen is more well rounded builds like Static showed, but they're still giving up some of the most broken sets right now to do it.

Idk, I don't play mag Sorc in pvp or ESO lately at all to comment properly, I just find it hard to believe a 3-5k heal proc is going to make a gigantic difference when Sorc has been complaining about shields being outdated for 5 years? I'd like some Mag Sorc mains to comment on it.

They are magsorc mains xD. Time will tell when everyone switches to sorc, and the problem becomes more noticeable.

They literally are on pts every day testing. I trust static 1000%.

I have no doubt that Statics limited testing is authentic but it still needs to be seen as just that, limited. Drawing conclusions on pieces of the picture will possibly yield incomplete conclusions.

There's just no way to see the full picture on this one.

Does it matter though? I’m not sure why we need to wait for everyone to test this skill before making any adjustment. Like say hypothetically, I’m barely an average player on the live server and my shield uptime is relatively low at 50%. I take a burst combo and drop to 20% HP. Let’s say I cast Ward 3 times. Because I’m not mechanically good, I forget to weave other abilities and light attacks in between to proc Surge and heal up. I eventually die.

What’s going to happen with the new change is instead of being punished for my mistakes. I can cast ward 3 times at 20% HP, gain 4k non crit heal per cast, and instantly get back to full HP. With 13.5k ward that can be spammed, there’s no shot i’m dying.

The point is, it doesn’t require extensive testing to see why its broken when stacked with 50k+ max mag. New Hardened Ward makes playing defensive SUPER easy, and anybody can tank next patch, even the ppl with low shield up time. The ones with 90%+ shield up time won’t die unless they make a mistake that you can capitalize on or fight someone with 6-7k DPS. 6-7k DPS will kill ANY class on the live server. Do you want another tank class? I hope not.

Jsmalls

I'm just worried because this needs a good amount of testing to find the right value for an ability that deals with temporary health as well as permanent health. And as usual we won't see a significant balance change until week 3. Which means we'll only get to test one proper change to the ability.

Duke_Falcon

Non Pet Mag Sorc lacks healing, we all know this. Its not even disputable.

It is also one of the weakest classes in the game falling far behind everything except Necro, and Maybe Templar. Necro and Templars heals are both amazing in comparison to Sorcs.

We all know Non Pet Mag Sorcs (Lone Wolf Mag Sorcs as ZoS called them in the patch notes) need to be buffed especially in regards to healing.

It makes no sense to argue to keep one of the weakest classes in the game weak, if not the weakest class in the game because it has the worst healing currently.

ZoS knows it needs more healing, we all do.

Let alone there's still bar space issues. We can't even get away from Chudan because of it.
Stam Sorcs do not have the problems that Mag Sorcs have.

TechMaybeHic

I don't know that sorcs are particularly weak in live currently. Seems to be the open world burst and kiter of choice after NB. Now they will have the staying power of Arcanist, DK, and Warden while doing it from what I have seen in this thread. Doesn't mean it is, but it sure sounds like it

Duke_Falcon

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't know that sorcs are particularly weak in live currently. Seems to be the open world burst and kiter of choice after NB. Now they will have the staying power of Arcanist, DK, and Warden while doing it from what I have seen in this thread. Doesn't mean it is, but it sure sounds like it

Which sounds balanced to me, because running away from a fight because your class is too weak to stay in a fight shouldn't be a thing for any class. I get if your being Zerged down, then yeah kite it out, but all Classes can do that with the all the increased speed changes over years.

i11ionward

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait until you realize magsorc can also run charged asylum staff with crushing shock + bound armaments and proc multiple sundered + other status effects, while having 45k-50k max mag. Magsorc is arguably one of the best classes to utilize the new status effect changes due to how many instances of direct dmg it has.

@StaticWave you're an experienced stamsorс, tell me how it turns out Bound Armaments has 281 hits, but only 55 of them activated sundered status effect? According to my calculations (charged+elemental force+battle mastery), I should have a 62.5% chance for activating status effect with a direct damage skill. But 55/281=0.196=19.6% this is too far from 62.5%. What am I doing wrong? Perhaps Bound Armaments is DOT damage, then the numbers are correct (18.8% chance for DOT). But I always believed that every hit of Bound Armaments is a direct damage.


EDIT
Crystal Weapon and Crushing Shock for comparison

Duke_Falcon

Hey I desperately want to see some game play of a Non Pet Mag Sorc on the PTS. Can anyone direct me to anyone streaming the PTS or posted videos of extended game play? I've seen some very limited game play by Malcolm but that's it. I want to compare how its really doing to what it currently is.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's wild that they took the most OP part of Arcanist's kit (Impervious), removed the crux requirement, and slapped it on Mag Sorc with mag scaling.

At least Arcs have to stack health and have 3 crux to make Impervious busted.

They're not exactly 1:1.

Impervious Runeward has 2 shields + the heal that stacks based on crux spent (also deals magic damage to an attacker and Arc has a shield scaling passive). I'd have to see 2 builds optimized for their versions of the shield, but based on the tooltip alone, Impervious looks like it scales the heal and upfront shield higher, with the 2nd shield lower. Obviously they have to go for health instead of mag, but that has its own pro's/con's.

Based on what @Turtle_Bot showed, the 65k mag build they attempted had terrible sustain, crit, and pen. I feel like they would constantly be running away or heavy attacking, with very little actual kill potential.

I think what will happen is more well rounded builds like Static showed, but they're still giving up some of the most broken sets right now to do it.

Idk, I don't play mag Sorc in pvp or ESO lately at all to comment properly, I just find it hard to believe a 3-5k heal proc is going to make a gigantic difference when Sorc has been complaining about shields being outdated for 5 years? I'd like some Mag Sorc mains to comment on it.

They are magsorc mains xD. Time will tell when everyone switches to sorc, and the problem becomes more noticeable.

They literally are on pts every day testing. I trust static 1000%.

I have no doubt that Statics limited testing is authentic but it still needs to be seen as just that, limited. Drawing conclusions on pieces of the picture will possibly yield incomplete conclusions.

There's just no way to see the full picture on this one.

Does it matter though? I’m not sure why we need to wait for everyone to test this skill before making any adjustment. Like say hypothetically, I’m barely an average player on the live server and my shield uptime is relatively low at 50%. I take a burst combo and drop to 20% HP. Let’s say I cast Ward 3 times. Because I’m not mechanically good, I forget to weave other abilities and light attacks in between to proc Surge and heal up. I eventually die.

What’s going to happen with the new change is instead of being punished for my mistakes. I can cast ward 3 times at 20% HP, gain 4k non crit heal per cast, and instantly get back to full HP. With 13.5k ward that can be spammed, there’s no shot i’m dying.

The point is, it doesn’t require extensive testing to see why its broken when stacked with 50k+ max mag. New Hardened Ward makes playing defensive SUPER easy, and anybody can tank next patch, even the ppl with low shield up time. The ones with 90%+ shield up time won’t die unless they make a mistake that you can capitalize on or fight someone with 6-7k DPS. 6-7k DPS will kill ANY class on the live server. Do you want another tank class? I hope not.

Ok geez so here we go.

What I'm saying is this. You can't test what people will do to adapt to the situation using new sets, old sets, changes to status effects, etc. Just do the math for a sec and understand that when everyone gets access there may be ways to build to counter your build that you might not be seeing and maybe they will just zerg down sorcs on sight?

So as evidence of this I present Arcanist. It's busted we all know it. Did people stop playing the game? No. If you see an arcanist you either leave it alone and move on or you gang up and kill it.


My point is that yes this sorc build you're presenting sounds strong and probably is in the 1v1 but ZOS does not care about the 1v1 so it's not relevant.


I'm just going to say it again, the build you're presenting is not unkillable, nobody in this game is unkillable, yeah you'll get kills and it might be hard for 1 person to deal with you but that's why we have zergs and groups which is really what this game encourages.

'
And yes the build has ranged damaged but anyone in this game can build around it. I can think of a build for any class where I won't die to the build you're posting with relative ease. Sure I won't have much damage but again that's what group play is for.


So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.


So to wrap that all up there just isn't a way to test everything that will happen on live because you don't have nearly enough diversity and sample group to test with. And I've already said if it was a higher number heal I might be on board but ZOS to their credit picked a number I can't easily argue for or against. Likely done on purpose.


If this game was geared towards 1v1 then your testing would absolutely be rock solid and I'd have to agree but it isn't and you can't really test the alternative so yes you have some math but it's incomplete when we take into account the intended content this change will go into.

Vaqual

Bushido2513 wrote: »

.
So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.

I would like to see the forums on the day when the devs tell us the counterplay against class xyz is "bring a friend". Keeping a balance on a 1v1 scale is among the most important motivators for people to PvP in the first place. It can not be dismissed. Group scenarios with infinite complexity can not serve as reasonable basis for balancing. The 1v1-power differences have to be within a certain margin. If class A is on top and class B is at the bottom, the best player of class B still has to be able to beat the worst player of class A. Otherwise PvP will fall apart. 1v1 is not a niche aspect of PvP, it is a part of its foundation.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's wild that they took the most OP part of Arcanist's kit (Impervious), removed the crux requirement, and slapped it on Mag Sorc with mag scaling.

At least Arcs have to stack health and have 3 crux to make Impervious busted.

They're not exactly 1:1.

Impervious Runeward has 2 shields + the heal that stacks based on crux spent (also deals magic damage to an attacker and Arc has a shield scaling passive). I'd have to see 2 builds optimized for their versions of the shield, but based on the tooltip alone, Impervious looks like it scales the heal and upfront shield higher, with the 2nd shield lower. Obviously they have to go for health instead of mag, but that has its own pro's/con's.

Based on what @Turtle_Bot showed, the 65k mag build they attempted had terrible sustain, crit, and pen. I feel like they would constantly be running away or heavy attacking, with very little actual kill potential.

I think what will happen is more well rounded builds like Static showed, but they're still giving up some of the most broken sets right now to do it.

Idk, I don't play mag Sorc in pvp or ESO lately at all to comment properly, I just find it hard to believe a 3-5k heal proc is going to make a gigantic difference when Sorc has been complaining about shields being outdated for 5 years? I'd like some Mag Sorc mains to comment on it.

They are magsorc mains xD. Time will tell when everyone switches to sorc, and the problem becomes more noticeable.

They literally are on pts every day testing. I trust static 1000%.

I have no doubt that Statics limited testing is authentic but it still needs to be seen as just that, limited. Drawing conclusions on pieces of the picture will possibly yield incomplete conclusions.

There's just no way to see the full picture on this one.

Does it matter though? I’m not sure why we need to wait for everyone to test this skill before making any adjustment. Like say hypothetically, I’m barely an average player on the live server and my shield uptime is relatively low at 50%. I take a burst combo and drop to 20% HP. Let’s say I cast Ward 3 times. Because I’m not mechanically good, I forget to weave other abilities and light attacks in between to proc Surge and heal up. I eventually die.

What’s going to happen with the new change is instead of being punished for my mistakes. I can cast ward 3 times at 20% HP, gain 4k non crit heal per cast, and instantly get back to full HP. With 13.5k ward that can be spammed, there’s no shot i’m dying.

The point is, it doesn’t require extensive testing to see why its broken when stacked with 50k+ max mag. New Hardened Ward makes playing defensive SUPER easy, and anybody can tank next patch, even the ppl with low shield up time. The ones with 90%+ shield up time won’t die unless they make a mistake that you can capitalize on or fight someone with 6-7k DPS. 6-7k DPS will kill ANY class on the live server. Do you want another tank class? I hope not.

Ok geez so here we go.

What I'm saying is this. You can't test what people will do to adapt to the situation using new sets, old sets, changes to status effects, etc. Just do the math for a sec and understand that when everyone gets access there may be ways to build to counter your build that you might not be seeing and maybe they will just zerg down sorcs on sight?

So as evidence of this I present Arcanist. It's busted we all know it. Did people stop playing the game? No. If you see an arcanist you either leave it alone and move on or you gang up and kill it.


My point is that yes this sorc build you're presenting sounds strong and probably is in the 1v1 but ZOS does not care about the 1v1 so it's not relevant.


I'm just going to say it again, the build you're presenting is not unkillable, nobody in this game is unkillable, yeah you'll get kills and it might be hard for 1 person to deal with you but that's why we have zergs and groups which is really what this game encourages.

'
And yes the build has ranged damaged but anyone in this game can build around it. I can think of a build for any class where I won't die to the build you're posting with relative ease. Sure I won't have much damage but again that's what group play is for.


So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.


So to wrap that all up there just isn't a way to test everything that will happen on live because you don't have nearly enough diversity and sample group to test with. And I've already said if it was a higher number heal I might be on board but ZOS to their credit picked a number I can't easily argue for or against. Likely done on purpose.


If this game was geared towards 1v1 then your testing would absolutely be rock solid and I'd have to agree but it isn't and you can't really test the alternative so yes you have some math but it's incomplete when we take into account the intended content this change will go into.

So basically, I'm just hearing *Static your wrong, a zerg can kill you* . With that logic then yes a zerg can kill a 70k hp 50k resistance perma block tank too. It just happens. Zos doesn't care about the zergs eithers. Or they would nuke cross healing again.

You are better off just saying what I said. Zos doesn't care about PvP feedback in general. It has to be something that is literally broken. Like the combat bug still hasn't been patched.

Yet my bro Gopher, submitted a ticket about a new Radiant Apex mount having an animation bug, and they fixed it right away.

Bushido2513

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

.
So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.

I would like to see the forums on the day when the devs tell us the counterplay against class xyz is "bring a friend". Keeping a balance on a 1v1 scale is among the most important motivators for people to PvP in the first place. It can not be dismissed. Group scenarios with infinite complexity can not serve as reasonable basis for balancing. The 1v1-power differences have to be within a certain margin. If class A is on top and class B is at the bottom, the best player of class B still has to be able to beat the worst player of class A. Otherwise PvP will fall apart. 1v1 is not a niche aspect of PvP, it is a part of its foundation.

So look at a dueling tournament with no rules. First you'd have to find one because they don't really get hosted because if you let anyone wear what they want you either get dominant cheese or stalemate.

Just go duel in this game in a popular dueling area and see what you get. You might get someone running an average skill encouraging build then you'll get the guy that just wants to win that has mastered their particular cheese.

If 1v1 is important explain Arcanist shields, or spec bows with stacks that never go away, or templars that 1v1 can basically choose not to die, same with warden, or a sorc with 4 proc sets on nuking several players. Honestly just do the first one and try to find a no rules dueling tournament on the regular, you won't because it's as described above and not all that fun. Because ZOS doesn't care to balance the 1v1.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

.
So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.

I would like to see the forums on the day when the devs tell us the counterplay against class xyz is "bring a friend". Keeping a balance on a 1v1 scale is among the most important motivators for people to PvP in the first place. It can not be dismissed. Group scenarios with infinite complexity can not serve as reasonable basis for balancing. The 1v1-power differences have to be within a certain margin. If class A is on top and class B is at the bottom, the best player of class B still has to be able to beat the worst player of class A. Otherwise PvP will fall apart. 1v1 is not a niche aspect of PvP, it is a part of its foundation.

So look at a dueling tournament with no rules. First you'd have to find one because they don't really get hosted because if you let anyone wear what they want you either get dominant cheese or stalemate.

Just go duel in this game in a popular dueling area and see what you get. You might get someone running an average skill encouraging build then you'll get the guy that just wants to win that has mastered their particular cheese.

If 1v1 is important explain Arcanist shields, or spec bows with stacks that never go away, or templars that 1v1 can basically choose not to die, same with warden, or a sorc with 4 proc sets on nuking several players. Honestly just do the first one and try to find a no rules dueling tournament on the regular, you won't because it's as described above and not all that fun. Because ZOS doesn't care to balance the 1v1.

There is no balance period. Tell me where you think there is a balance anywhere in PvP. Tell me, I'll wait.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's wild that they took the most OP part of Arcanist's kit (Impervious), removed the crux requirement, and slapped it on Mag Sorc with mag scaling.

At least Arcs have to stack health and have 3 crux to make Impervious busted.

They're not exactly 1:1.

Impervious Runeward has 2 shields + the heal that stacks based on crux spent (also deals magic damage to an attacker and Arc has a shield scaling passive). I'd have to see 2 builds optimized for their versions of the shield, but based on the tooltip alone, Impervious looks like it scales the heal and upfront shield higher, with the 2nd shield lower. Obviously they have to go for health instead of mag, but that has its own pro's/con's.

Based on what @Turtle_Bot showed, the 65k mag build they attempted had terrible sustain, crit, and pen. I feel like they would constantly be running away or heavy attacking, with very little actual kill potential.

I think what will happen is more well rounded builds like Static showed, but they're still giving up some of the most broken sets right now to do it.

Idk, I don't play mag Sorc in pvp or ESO lately at all to comment properly, I just find it hard to believe a 3-5k heal proc is going to make a gigantic difference when Sorc has been complaining about shields being outdated for 5 years? I'd like some Mag Sorc mains to comment on it.

They are magsorc mains xD. Time will tell when everyone switches to sorc, and the problem becomes more noticeable.

They literally are on pts every day testing. I trust static 1000%.

I have no doubt that Statics limited testing is authentic but it still needs to be seen as just that, limited. Drawing conclusions on pieces of the picture will possibly yield incomplete conclusions.

There's just no way to see the full picture on this one.

Does it matter though? I’m not sure why we need to wait for everyone to test this skill before making any adjustment. Like say hypothetically, I’m barely an average player on the live server and my shield uptime is relatively low at 50%. I take a burst combo and drop to 20% HP. Let’s say I cast Ward 3 times. Because I’m not mechanically good, I forget to weave other abilities and light attacks in between to proc Surge and heal up. I eventually die.

What’s going to happen with the new change is instead of being punished for my mistakes. I can cast ward 3 times at 20% HP, gain 4k non crit heal per cast, and instantly get back to full HP. With 13.5k ward that can be spammed, there’s no shot i’m dying.

The point is, it doesn’t require extensive testing to see why its broken when stacked with 50k+ max mag. New Hardened Ward makes playing defensive SUPER easy, and anybody can tank next patch, even the ppl with low shield up time. The ones with 90%+ shield up time won’t die unless they make a mistake that you can capitalize on or fight someone with 6-7k DPS. 6-7k DPS will kill ANY class on the live server. Do you want another tank class? I hope not.

Ok geez so here we go.

What I'm saying is this. You can't test what people will do to adapt to the situation using new sets, old sets, changes to status effects, etc. Just do the math for a sec and understand that when everyone gets access there may be ways to build to counter your build that you might not be seeing and maybe they will just zerg down sorcs on sight?

So as evidence of this I present Arcanist. It's busted we all know it. Did people stop playing the game? No. If you see an arcanist you either leave it alone and move on or you gang up and kill it.


My point is that yes this sorc build you're presenting sounds strong and probably is in the 1v1 but ZOS does not care about the 1v1 so it's not relevant.


I'm just going to say it again, the build you're presenting is not unkillable, nobody in this game is unkillable, yeah you'll get kills and it might be hard for 1 person to deal with you but that's why we have zergs and groups which is really what this game encourages.

'
And yes the build has ranged damaged but anyone in this game can build around it. I can think of a build for any class where I won't die to the build you're posting with relative ease. Sure I won't have much damage but again that's what group play is for.


So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.


So to wrap that all up there just isn't a way to test everything that will happen on live because you don't have nearly enough diversity and sample group to test with. And I've already said if it was a higher number heal I might be on board but ZOS to their credit picked a number I can't easily argue for or against. Likely done on purpose.


If this game was geared towards 1v1 then your testing would absolutely be rock solid and I'd have to agree but it isn't and you can't really test the alternative so yes you have some math but it's incomplete when we take into account the intended content this change will go into.

So basically, I'm just hearing *Static your wrong, a zerg can kill you* . With that logic then yes a zerg can kill a 70k hp 50k resistance perma block tank too. It just happens. Zos doesn't care about the zergs eithers. Or they would nuke cross healing again.

You are better off just saying what I said. Zos doesn't care about PvP feedback in general. It has to be something that is literally broken. Like the combat bug still hasn't been patched.

Yet my bro Gopher, submitted a ticket about a new Radiant Apex mount having an animation bug, and they fixed it right away.

Did you read what you just said? That's my point, they don't nuke cross healing and therefore encourage you to gang up.

In this game you will always be at your most powerful in a group by a factor that shouldn't even exist in this game. There are so many shared buffs and heals that but ZOS does encourage that because you know what general pop likes, is being able to feel like they are engaging in a war. Getting run down by several players or losing to an overpowered spec or even a better player isn't fun and attractive to new players. So ZOS encourages group play in that a new player will feel safer and more engaged even if it is their buddy keeping them in the fight the whole time.

You can go back through previous videos of youtubers and almost track the decline of 1vx. ZOS likes to encourage group dynamics because it keeps you more engaged to be social and playing the game. It's actually not the worst idea it's just the the implementation sucks when you have several people on the field that are getting heals and are tanky and you're getting hand cramps going through your rotation watching their health not move while you as well don't die because you're getting heals.

Bottom line group play is better for the life of the game. 1v1 isn't bad at all but has more potential to turn off new or existing players when it goes bad. Xv1 really sends new players running for the hills which brings us in some part to the tank meta and being encouraged to group up.

At this point there are several builds and specs you just aren't killing without help and thus back to being encouraged to group!

Vaqual

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

.
So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.

I would like to see the forums on the day when the devs tell us the counterplay against class xyz is "bring a friend". Keeping a balance on a 1v1 scale is among the most important motivators for people to PvP in the first place. It can not be dismissed. Group scenarios with infinite complexity can not serve as reasonable basis for balancing. The 1v1-power differences have to be within a certain margin. If class A is on top and class B is at the bottom, the best player of class B still has to be able to beat the worst player of class A. Otherwise PvP will fall apart. 1v1 is not a niche aspect of PvP, it is a part of its foundation.

So look at a dueling tournament with no rules. First you'd have to find one because they don't really get hosted because if you let anyone wear what they want you either get dominant cheese or stalemate.

Just go duel in this game in a popular dueling area and see what you get. You might get someone running an average skill encouraging build then you'll get the guy that just wants to win that has mastered their particular cheese.

If 1v1 is important explain Arcanist shields, or spec bows with stacks that never go away, or templars that 1v1 can basically choose not to die, same with warden, or a sorc with 4 proc sets on nuking several players. Honestly just do the first one and try to find a no rules dueling tournament on the regular, you won't because it's as described above and not all that fun. Because ZOS doesn't care to balance the 1v1.

There are imbalances, but that is not the point. Stalemates are even potentially a a sign of good balance, but they are mostly based on overtuned defensive options (what about the zerg argument in this case?). People building suboptimally for a certain fight or getting countered is also not a big deal, choosing the wrong options is different from being limited. Knowingly releasing something that can yield disproportional returns is the issue here. Arcanist, etc., being broken doesn't justify bad decisions either. None of your arguments apply really.

Perfect, but the same time interesting, balance for 1v1s is unrealistic, but releasing something against better knowledge doesn't help at all. Just because the 1v1 landscape is partially eroded, doesn't mean flooding it with cheese will help. 1v1 is also not only "dueling" in the ESO sense (my meta garbage against your meta garbage), it includes fending off a ganker, going after players that split from the group, defending the relic and so on.

The way I read this thread, no one is asking for a severe nerf, just to reduce outlier strength for a trivial build type. I am sure the people advocating for it would be the first to get bored. Is your expectation that this will balance itself, because the player base will collectively run oblivion damage only (the options are not good enough)?

I feel like I am the wrong guy to say these things anyway, no one in a sorc thread buys this stuff from a NB main.

Bushido2513

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

.
So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.

I would like to see the forums on the day when the devs tell us the counterplay against class xyz is "bring a friend". Keeping a balance on a 1v1 scale is among the most important motivators for people to PvP in the first place. It can not be dismissed. Group scenarios with infinite complexity can not serve as reasonable basis for balancing. The 1v1-power differences have to be within a certain margin. If class A is on top and class B is at the bottom, the best player of class B still has to be able to beat the worst player of class A. Otherwise PvP will fall apart. 1v1 is not a niche aspect of PvP, it is a part of its foundation.

So look at a dueling tournament with no rules. First you'd have to find one because they don't really get hosted because if you let anyone wear what they want you either get dominant cheese or stalemate.

Just go duel in this game in a popular dueling area and see what you get. You might get someone running an average skill encouraging build then you'll get the guy that just wants to win that has mastered their particular cheese.

If 1v1 is important explain Arcanist shields, or spec bows with stacks that never go away, or templars that 1v1 can basically choose not to die, same with warden, or a sorc with 4 proc sets on nuking several players. Honestly just do the first one and try to find a no rules dueling tournament on the regular, you won't because it's as described above and not all that fun. Because ZOS doesn't care to balance the 1v1.

There are imbalances, but that is not the point. Stalemates are even potentially a a sign of good balance, but they are mostly based on overtuned defensive options (what about the zerg argument in this case?). People building suboptimally for a certain fight or getting countered is also not a big deal, choosing the wrong options is different from being limited. Knowingly releasing something that can yield disproportional returns is the issue here. Arcanist, etc., being broken doesn't justify bad decisions either. None of your arguments apply really.

Perfect, but the same time interesting, balance for 1v1s is unrealistic, but releasing something against better knowledge doesn't help at all. Just because the 1v1 landscape is partially eroded, doesn't mean flooding it with cheese will help. 1v1 is also not only "dueling" in the ESO sense (my meta garbage against your meta garbage), it includes fending off a ganker, going after players that split from the group, defending the relic and so on.

The way I read this thread, no one is asking for a severe nerf, just to reduce outlier strength for a trivial build type. I am sure the people advocating for it would be the first to get bored. Is your expectation that this will balance itself, because the player base will collectively run oblivion damage only (the options are not good enough)?

I feel like I am the wrong guy to say these things anyway, no one in a sorc thread buys this stuff from a NB main.

I mean you would have some good points if ZOS cared about the game more than the bottom line but you'd be fooling yourself if you think the driving force isn't sales.

They've actually been doing this for quite some time now. Releasing broken stuff and changes only to come back and fix hem or break something else and this is no different if it gets released as is, not that I agree that it's broken but more so that this will generate interest in sorcs again for a while and is all part of keeping the wheel turning.

Yes this could be a more balanced game but it hasn't been for quite some time and it's clear that's not the overall agenda for ZOS. So yes I'm going to make the most of it though I really don't see this as all that busted, just more in line with the current environment.

I've learned to play the game I have vs the game I wish I had. I don't mind if people want to say overall please make it better, I agree actually but this current version of the shield change is both to my advantage and in line with all the other silly stuff they do / put out so I'm ok with it. I understand not everyone is and why they aren't.

The fact is that this change would be in line with the direction of the game currently. Might not be exactly the direction people want to go but it's competitive in the game as it is without being something I could clearly undeniably see as broken.

Vaqual

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

.
So at the end of the day yes the build is interesting in a 1v1 which doesn't matter. In a group setting yes you can kite and throw out ranged damage but if a zerg wants to kill you bad enough they will. Or you'll run and live and that's fine in my book.

I would like to see the forums on the day when the devs tell us the counterplay against class xyz is "bring a friend". Keeping a balance on a 1v1 scale is among the most important motivators for people to PvP in the first place. It can not be dismissed. Group scenarios with infinite complexity can not serve as reasonable basis for balancing. The 1v1-power differences have to be within a certain margin. If class A is on top and class B is at the bottom, the best player of class B still has to be able to beat the worst player of class A. Otherwise PvP will fall apart. 1v1 is not a niche aspect of PvP, it is a part of its foundation.

So look at a dueling tournament with no rules. First you'd have to find one because they don't really get hosted because if you let anyone wear what they want you either get dominant cheese or stalemate.

Just go duel in this game in a popular dueling area and see what you get. You might get someone running an average skill encouraging build then you'll get the guy that just wants to win that has mastered their particular cheese.

If 1v1 is important explain Arcanist shields, or spec bows with stacks that never go away, or templars that 1v1 can basically choose not to die, same with warden, or a sorc with 4 proc sets on nuking several players. Honestly just do the first one and try to find a no rules dueling tournament on the regular, you won't because it's as described above and not all that fun. Because ZOS doesn't care to balance the 1v1.

There are imbalances, but that is not the point. Stalemates are even potentially a a sign of good balance, but they are mostly based on overtuned defensive options (what about the zerg argument in this case?). People building suboptimally for a certain fight or getting countered is also not a big deal, choosing the wrong options is different from being limited. Knowingly releasing something that can yield disproportional returns is the issue here. Arcanist, etc., being broken doesn't justify bad decisions either. None of your arguments apply really.

Perfect, but the same time interesting, balance for 1v1s is unrealistic, but releasing something against better knowledge doesn't help at all. Just because the 1v1 landscape is partially eroded, doesn't mean flooding it with cheese will help. 1v1 is also not only "dueling" in the ESO sense (my meta garbage against your meta garbage), it includes fending off a ganker, going after players that split from the group, defending the relic and so on.

The way I read this thread, no one is asking for a severe nerf, just to reduce outlier strength for a trivial build type. I am sure the people advocating for it would be the first to get bored. Is your expectation that this will balance itself, because the player base will collectively run oblivion damage only (the options are not good enough)?

I feel like I am the wrong guy to say these things anyway, no one in a sorc thread buys this stuff from a NB main.

I mean you would have some good points if ZOS cared about the game more than the bottom line but you'd be fooling yourself if you think the driving force isn't sales.

They've actually been doing this for quite some time now. Releasing broken stuff and changes only to come back and fix hem or break something else and this is no different if it gets released as is, not that I agree that it's broken but more so that this will generate interest in sorcs again for a while and is all part of keeping the wheel turning.

Yes this could be a more balanced game but it hasn't been for quite some time and it's clear that's not the overall agenda for ZOS. So yes I'm going to make the most of it though I really don't see this as all that busted, just more in line with the current environment.

I've learned to play the game I have vs the game I wish I had. I don't mind if people want to say overall please make it better, I agree actually but this current version of the shield change is both to my advantage and in line with all the other silly stuff they do / put out so I'm ok with it. I understand not everyone is and why they aren't.

The fact is that this change would be in line with the direction of the game currently. Might not be exactly the direction people want to go but it's competitive in the game as it is without being something I could clearly undeniably see as broken.

The honesty is appreciated.

StaticWave

i11ionward wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait until you realize magsorc can also run charged asylum staff with crushing shock + bound armaments and proc multiple sundered + other status effects, while having 45k-50k max mag. Magsorc is arguably one of the best classes to utilize the new status effect changes due to how many instances of direct dmg it has.

@StaticWave you're an experienced stamsorс, tell me how it turns out Bound Armaments has 281 hits, but only 55 of them activated sundered status effect? According to my calculations (charged+elemental force+battle mastery), I should have a 62.5% chance for activating status effect with a direct damage skill. But 55/281=0.196=19.6% this is too far from 62.5%. What am I doing wrong? Perhaps Bound Armaments is DOT damage, then the numbers are correct (18.8% chance for DOT). But I always believed that every hit of Bound Armaments is a direct damage.


EDIT
Crystal Weapon and Crushing Shock for comparison

I always believed every hit of Bound Armaments is direct dmg too. I remember testing it with Deadly and didn’t see a damage buff. I will confirm with you later. Good point being brought up though

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

The way I read this thread, no one is asking for a severe nerf, just to reduce outlier strength for a trivial build type. I am sure the people advocating for it would be the first to get bored. Is your expectation that this will balance itself, because the player base will collectively run oblivion damage only (the options are not good enough)?

Funnily enough, I’m already running oblivion enchants on the live server. It’s still not enough but it’ll help somewhat lol.

sunshineflame

This dude pvps on the forums more than in game

FoJul

sunshineflame wrote: »

This dude pvps on the forums more than in game

The game itself is bland, I'm not even actively subbed/ nor do I play as often anymore. I'll come to forums, hoping the devs skid across one of the discussions I'm part of.

A lot of the people on forums don't play as much, because the game is just at one of its lowest points if not the lowest.

I don't think we ever had a class that was just actually completely useless for almost 2 years straight. 1 Class fixing to join that other class.

"You miss 100% of the shots you never take." -Michael Jordan/And or Wayne Gretzky

You will never get change, if you don't ask for it.

StaticWave

sunshineflame wrote: »

This dude pvps on the forums more than in game

Because I’ve played it long enough and don’t find as much enjoyment logging on anymore? Why does that matter to you lol

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait until you realize magsorc can also run charged asylum staff with crushing shock + bound armaments and proc multiple sundered + other status effects, while having 45k-50k max mag. Magsorc is arguably one of the best classes to utilize the new status effect changes due to how many instances of direct dmg it has.

@StaticWave you're an experienced stamsorс, tell me how it turns out Bound Armaments has 281 hits, but only 55 of them activated sundered status effect? According to my calculations (charged+elemental force+battle mastery), I should have a 62.5% chance for activating status effect with a direct damage skill. But 55/281=0.196=19.6% this is too far from 62.5%. What am I doing wrong? Perhaps Bound Armaments is DOT damage, then the numbers are correct (18.8% chance for DOT). But I always believed that every hit of Bound Armaments is a direct damage.


EDIT
Crystal Weapon and Crushing Shock for comparison

I always believed every hit of Bound Armaments is direct dmg too. I remember testing it with Deadly and didn’t see a damage buff. I will confirm with you later. Good point being brought up though

Is it possible to test Crushing Shock as well while you're at it?

I remember reading somewhere that multi hit abilities had some wonky math done to give those abilities an overall status effect proc chance on their combined hits that equals out to roughly what a single hit direct damage attack gives to prevent them from specifically gaining too much damage from status effect procs.

If I find it again, I'll post it here.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

sunshineflame wrote: »

This dude pvps on the forums more than in game

Because I’ve played it long enough and don’t find as much enjoyment logging on anymore? Why does that matter to you lol

I can understand and relate. I like to mix it up between playing the game, taking breaks from the game, and talking about the game.

We joke about people that are active but without them it would probably be even more boring at times.

On topic, I do think a change to this change is coming in the notes. Just don't know if they will lower the value or change it to a hot. Either is fine with me since it's more than I had lol