The burst heal from Sorcerer's Conjured Ward and its morphs needs to be value capped

StaticWave · February 2

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Looks absolutely acceptable compared to eg offering or coag but your already gimping your damage running a Max Stat Set.
To achieve higher mag you'd sacrifice even more gear traits, chc, chd, boon, racial choice, cp's.....

Cmon man healthy offering and coag don’t always crit lol… that’s such a skewed comparison. 13.6k ward at all times + a 4k heal that can potentially crit for 6.5k is already stronger than a coag.

I don’t want sorc to become another NB tank class. This change going thru will make it just that.

So I was testing a similar build on live with more armor and a 12k or so ward and of course no heal. It's not an easy build to protect yourself in so yes I think higher end players will make this change really shine, get in more 1vx, etc.

The average player will live longer and be able to have a chance to streak away and come back but won't be able to really just absolutely face tank most common pvp scenarios.

Like with one or multiple high damage builds coming at you this heal will keep you from dying but not by a degree that other classes don't currently enjoy.

In fact I might just actually survive templar execute with this but probably not any other player hitting me at the same time or dual executes. My point being that bad on my experience as a sorc main and what I see from other high and mid tier sorcs, this change would mostly just level things on average.

Also, and this is very important @StaticWave , why try to pre nerf something when other factors are changing that will affect the outcome of the change in ways we can't predict?

With the status effect changes and shield changes we can't predict what the new meta will be so why try to nerf now when what's on paper might not even be enough once all players get access and start developing build? Then what, you ask to buff the very thing you asked to be nerfed and just have to wait?

I didnt ask for a burst heal underneath the shield lol. I knew it was too strong and never suggested that.

I also use Hardened Ward on the live server and I can tank up to 4.5k DPS against nearly all of the aids builds. If ZOS doesn’t change the skill when patch drops, then I will enjoy 3 months of being one of the tankiest classes in the game.

Btw, this isn’t just my findings, but findings from multiple good sorc mains who agreed to cap the heal value.

Jammy420 · February 2

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

Exactly, and the shields have been absolutely lacking for years now, so honestly, it should stay how it is. You have to give up good sets in order to reach that amount of magicka. The trade off is more than just.

Aces-High-82 · February 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Looks absolutely acceptable compared to eg offering or coag but your already gimping your damage running a Max Stat Set.
To achieve higher mag you'd sacrifice even more gear traits, chc, chd, boon, racial choice, cp's.....

Cmon man healthy offering and coag don’t always crit lol… that’s such a skewed comparison. 13.6k ward at all times + a 4k heal that can potentially crit for 6.5k is already stronger than a coag.

I don’t want sorc to become another NB tank class. This change going thru will make it just that.

You're kinda right but do not forget specing into weap/spell damage and chc will net you better results regarding hps and harming potential. That 6k crit heal and 3k more shield size will let you survive 2 more hits compared to live when not going against bots while your damage gain is neglible bc 10% of heavily telegraphed nothin to talk about remains just that.

Twohothardware · February 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Twohothardware · February 2

We also need to see gameplay in how shields play against Major/Minor Defile now applying to them reducing their size.

StaticWave · February 2

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Twohothardware · February 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

ilawana · February 2

Not sure I really see an issue here. Sorc shield change was a good one and I don't think it is overpowered compared to any other class. As a sorc main for almost 7 years now, I feel like sorc has worse defense when compared to every other class outside of streak. I think this change has the potential to bring it up to par with other classes but I don't think it causes it to outdo the other classes.

On my current setup these are the tooltips I get on my Ward and the new class burst heal (with Vitality buff from Shroud) .

That is being built entirely for maximum magicka, outside of having tri-stat glyphs. My experience tells me that building entirely into maximum magicka like that does result in lower damage than other classes get as well as lower sustain. I am running DDF, Crafty, Ancient Grace, Chudan, and Trainee 1pc

On my current Arcanist setup I get these tooltips.

On my Arcanist, the only health set I am running is Trainee 1pc and DDF. Like my Sorc, I have all tri-stat glyphs, bastion, and the health cps. But my Arc is running Orders Wrath, Wretched Vitality, Balorgh, damage mundus.

So my arcanist is getting better tooltips fully buffed than my sorc is getting fully buffed and my Arcanist can run damage sets like Orders Wrath or even proc sets if I wanted to, as well as whatever mundus suits the build. My Sorc on the other hand has to spec entirely into max mag in order to get tooltips that are comparable. Other classes can also build almost entirely into damage and get heals for days, like nb, dk, and warden. In order for Ward to be decent, you have to sacrifice damage, healing, sustain, and build variety. Other classes have primary defensive skills that require little to no tradeoffs whatsoever. So no, hardened ward is not going to be op now.

Twohothardware · February 2

ilawana wrote: »

Not sure I really see an issue here. Sorc shield change was a good one and I don't think it is overpowered compared to any other class. As a sorc main for almost 7 years now, I feel like sorc has worse defense when compared to every other class outside of streak. I think this change has the potential to bring it up to par with other classes but I don't think it causes it to outdo the other classes.

On my current setup these are the tooltips I get on my Ward and the new class burst heal (with Vitality buff from Shroud) .

That is being built entirely for maximum magicka, outside of having tri-stat glyphs. My experience tells me that building entirely into maximum magicka like that does result in lower damage than other classes get as well as lower sustain. I am running DDF, Crafty, Ancient Grace, Chudan, and Trainee 1pc

On my current Arcanist setup I get these tooltips.

On my Arcanist, the only health set I am running is Trainee 1pc and DDF. Like my Sorc, I have all tri-stat glyphs, bastion, and the health cps. But my Arc is running Orders Wrath, Wretched Vitality, Balorgh, damage mundus.

So my arcanist is getting better tooltips fully buffed than my sorc is getting fully buffed and my Arcanist can run damage sets like Orders Wrath or even proc sets if I wanted to, as well as whatever mundus suits the build. My Sorc on the other hand has to spec entirely into max mag in order to get tooltips that are comparable. Other classes can also build almost entirely into damage and get heals for days, like nb, dk, and warden. In order for Ward to be decent, you have to sacrifice damage, healing, sustain, and build variety. Other classes have primary defensive skills that require little to no tradeoffs whatsoever. So no, hardened ward is not going to be op now.

Yeah that’s an 11.2K heal tooltip on Impervious Runeward when you have Crux stacked.

ilawana · February 2

Right! An 11.22k tooltip that can crit, on top of a shield that has bigger potential than Ward, on top of another class burst heal. If we really break it down Sorcs aren't getting too strong at all.

Jsmalls · February 2

So I played extensively on the PTS with this change and I'm not entirely changing my opinion on it but I would like to add a few additional points to consider.

I was treating the 25k value (16k shield + 9k crit heal) as effective health which isn't entirely accurate. The majority of that "health" expires after 6 seconds and it cannot be mitigated with block like normal health. So I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to say it's comparable to a direct heal and likely shouldn't be balanced as such.

I dueled a templar and nightblade (of what I would consider equal skill level) for over 2 hours with this change. And with most high end 1v1s each duel lasted a long time. Neither of us died from lack of sustain, it was a matter of someone making a mistake and the other capitalizing on it or the lining up of a series of abilities just right to basically 100 to 0 the other. We both had wins, probably almost half and half.

Shields aren't balanced in the current meta of the game and this is bringing them more inline with "balance". If a nightblade and templar can recover from 10% to-100% in a 1-2 gcds then maybe it's not out of line that a Mag Sorc now can too.

It really comes down to, if you get an opponent down to 10% health should they be able to recover? On live currently for a Mag Sorc that answer is not with their toolkit. Where most classes the answer is yes. This change makes recovering from execute very possible (and very likely).

That being said it's still temporary health that can and will expire during full offensive pushes and it does take additional time and effort to manage temporary health over permanent health.

It likely needs to be tweaked but not by much, likely 5-10%. Then let us test those changes and see if it requires more.

ilawana · February 2

Even if they were to bump it down by 5% then they would have to look at bumping other classes down as well, or bumping something up in its place (like removing the cast time on Dark Conversion or something), no?

Jsmalls · February 2

@ilawana

This ability will still be strong with a 5-10% change. I don't think we need something bumped up to compensate. Healing as a whole needs to be looked at but this isn't the place for that kind of discussion.

I don't think you can remove the cast time on dark deal. It would be too strong.

That would be an instant cast ability that provides minor berserk, minor force, is a burst heal, and a sustain tool. That's too overloaded.

StaticWave · February 2

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

StaticWave · February 2

Jsmalls wrote: »

So I played extensively on the PTS with this change and I'm not entirely changing my opinion on it but I would like to add a few additional points to consider.

I was treating the 25k value (16k shield + 9k crit heal) as effective health which isn't entirely accurate. The majority of that "health" expires after 6 seconds and it cannot be mitigated with block like normal health. So I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to say it's comparable to a direct heal and likely shouldn't be balanced as such.

I dueled a templar and nightblade (of what I would consider equal skill level) for over 2 hours with this change. And with most high end 1v1s each duel lasted a long time. Neither of us died from lack of sustain, it was a matter of someone making a mistake and the other capitalizing on it or the lining up of a series of abilities just right to basically 100 to 0 the other. We both had wins, probably almost half and half.

Shields aren't balanced in the current meta of the game and this is bringing them more inline with "balance". If a nightblade and templar can recover from 10% to-100% in a 1-2 gcds then maybe it's not out of line that a Mag Sorc now can too.

It really comes down to, if you get an opponent down to 10% health should they be able to recover? On live currently for a Mag Sorc that answer is not with their toolkit. Where most classes the answer is yes. This change makes recovering from execute very possible (and very likely).

That being said it's still temporary health that can and will expire during full offensive pushes and it does take additional time and effort to manage temporary health over permanent health.

It likely needs to be tweaked but not by much, likely 5-10%. Then let us test those changes and see if it requires more.

Yea, someone suggested the burst heal to be converted to a HoT, which I think is a better solution. Same tooltip of 7k, but over 3-4 seconds. That’s still very strong, but more balanced.

ilawana · February 2

Jsmalls wrote: »

@ilawana

This ability will still be strong with a 5-10% change. I don't think we need something bumped up to compensate. Healing as a whole needs to be looked at but this isn't the place for that kind of discussion.

I don't think you can remove the cast time on dark deal. It would be too strong.

That would be an instant cast ability that provides minor berserk, minor force, is a burst heal, and a sustain tool. That's too overloaded.

They would certainly have to make some additional changes to dark deal/conversion if they did that. (And I would gladly lose out on some of the burst healing and sustain if that meant I could lose the cast time) But the point is, while it may be strong, the shield is not going to overperform defensive abilities from other classes. So, if they bump down their changes, they would then be making it worse than the other class abilities and thus would have to make more adjustments to compensate.

olsborg · February 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

All the other burstheals in the game needs to be capped too then. Breath of life, healthy offering, dragons blood etc..

ShalidorsHeir · February 2

as long as as shields themselves can not help with execute range or crit compared to plain healing .... i dont know man - healing itself maybe reduced a bit but not capped and no hard nerf after all -> ZOS was doing accurately what they promised ^^ other than that: ye its going to be "too strong" compared to sorc before, such as every other class has smth "too strong"

- as long as aracanist exists i personally dont want to hear any shield complains

Jsmalls · February 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, someone suggested the burst heal to be converted to a HoT, which I think is a better solution. Same tooltip of 7k, but over 3-4 seconds. That’s still very strong, but more balanced.

@StaticWave

I don't disagree, and I kind of would prefer this but...

Would that HoT be dependent on the shield itself? As in what if that 15k ward got ripped off in one second, would the remaining 3 seconds of HoT still be active?

The reason I'm questioning this is because it nerfs it's reactive potency while buffing it's proactive potency. If your HoT is still ticking when the shield is removed (if within let's say the first 1-2 seconds) then that's an additional 3500-5k damage your opponent needs to do to achieve the same result, that wouldn't have been present with the current iteration when cast at full health. This will come more into play when fighting multiple opponents I believe but still needs to be considered.

Kartalin · February 2

Did anyone take this skill to IC and try out Imperial Physique yet?

Understandably there will be outlier builds, but so frequently those become the meta so...

Jsmalls · February 2

Kartalin wrote: »

Did anyone take this skill to IC and try out Imperial Physique yet?

Understandably there will be outlier builds, but so frequently those become the meta so...

@Kartalin

So because for a high stacked Max Magicka build you're limited to a number of sets, imperial physique actually doesn't offer a larger bonus to magicka than other sets do.

For example:

Replacing crafty alfiq you're trading 5800 magicka for 6000 magicka when putting on this set (not much of a difference).

Replacing grace of ancients and two magicka monster sets you're trading 5700 magicka for 6000 magicka (not much of a difference).

Yes you're gaining additional spell damage, recovery, and health but that's the point of the "risk" for this set.

Running this set won't statistically make a large difference versus current achievable values.

Aces-High-82 · February 2

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

as long as as shields themselves can not help with execute range or crit compared to plain healing .... i dont know man - healing itself maybe reduced a bit but not capped and no hard nerf after all -> ZOS was doing accurately what they promised ^^ other than that: ye its going to be "too strong" compared to sorc before, such as every other class has smth "too strong" - as long as aracanist exists i personally dont want to hear any shield complains

Exactly....esp as Arcanist can hit 270k shield on pts (yall ready right 270000 thousends)

StaticWave · February 2

olsborg wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

All the other burstheals in the game needs to be capped too then. Breath of life, healthy offering, dragons blood etc..

They shouldn’t be capped though.

Burst heals are best at getting you out of execute phase, but does nothing to prevent you from taking a full burst combo. You have to block or stack mitigation to do that.

Shields are best at preventing you from taking a full burst combo, but does nothing to get you out of execute range. You need heals to do that.

Hardened Ward with a burst heal essential has NO weakness. You apply a 13k ward to protect yourself from a burst combo, and also heal for 4-6.5k instantly to get out of execute range. It’s too strong. At least with a burst heal, you can still use an unblockable stun to time a combo and kill someone if they hold block. You can’t burst someone if they have a shield, even if you’ve stunned them.

StaticWave · February 2

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, someone suggested the burst heal to be converted to a HoT, which I think is a better solution. Same tooltip of 7k, but over 3-4 seconds. That’s still very strong, but more balanced.

@StaticWave

I don't disagree, and I kind of would prefer this but...

Would that HoT be dependent on the shield itself? As in what if that 15k ward got ripped off in one second, would the remaining 3 seconds of HoT still be active?

The reason I'm questioning this is because it nerfs it's reactive potency while buffing it's proactive potency. If your HoT is still ticking when the shield is removed (if within let's say the first 1-2 seconds) then that's an additional 3500-5k damage your opponent needs to do to achieve the same result, that wouldn't have been present with the current iteration when cast at full health. This will come more into play when fighting multiple opponents I believe but still needs to be considered.

They could just separate the HoT from the shield and that would be fine. 7k tooltip HoT over 4s, so around 1750hps, or ~800hps with battle spirit. It allows for counterplay compared to the current PTS version.

Kartalin · February 2

Jsmalls wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Did anyone take this skill to IC and try out Imperial Physique yet?

Understandably there will be outlier builds, but so frequently those become the meta so...

@Kartalin

So because for a high stacked Max Magicka build you're limited to a number of sets, imperial physique actually doesn't offer a larger bonus to magicka than other sets do.

For example:

Replacing crafty alfiq you're trading 5800 magicka for 6000 magicka when putting on this set (not much of a difference).

Replacing grace of ancients and two magicka monster sets you're trading 5700 magicka for 6000 magicka (not much of a difference).

Yes you're gaining additional spell damage, recovery, and health but that's the point of the "risk" for this set.

Running this set won't statistically make a large difference versus current achievable values.

Excellent point, it does not impact this discussion directly. It could provide a better avenue for applying what we're talking about in a specific scenario but that is another matter.

Bushido2513 · February 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

@StaticWave

I'm catching up on multiple posts and touching on this one. These changes are for all players of different skill levels and playstyles. People are already commenting that in their testing on pts that the change feels fair currently.

Are you accounting for how others that don't want to push the max night want to play? For instance I don't use a max mag spec in the same way you do so for me the heal will be very useful but definitely not make me op by any means. So have you considered that yes some skilled players will do interesting things with this but that average or sub average players will just get to enjoy the game?

This isn't like NB or Arcanist where a very simple build nets you a character with high damage and superior evasion or huge mitigation and an easy combo.

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly but just asking if you've thought out how the change effects everyone and not just specific scenarios?

Vaqual · February 2

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

@StaticWave

I'm catching up on multiple posts and touching on this one. These changes are for all players of different skill levels and playstyles. People are already commenting that in their testing on pts that the change feels fair currently.

Are you accounting for how others that don't want to push the max night want to play? For instance I don't use a max mag spec in the same way you do so for me the heal will be very useful but definitely not make me op by any means. So have you considered that yes some skilled players will do interesting things with this but that average or sub average players will just get to enjoy the game?

This isn't like NB or Arcanist where a very simple build nets you a character with high damage and superior evasion or huge mitigation and an easy combo.

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly but just asking if you've thought out how the change effects everyone and not just specific scenarios?

But these people wont be affected by the cap then?
He just wants the change to be sustainable, that makes sense. Cheese builds are fun for like 3 days, then months of suffering lie ahead.

Bushido2513 · February 2

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

@StaticWave

I'm catching up on multiple posts and touching on this one. These changes are for all players of different skill levels and playstyles. People are already commenting that in their testing on pts that the change feels fair currently.

Are you accounting for how others that don't want to push the max night want to play? For instance I don't use a max mag spec in the same way you do so for me the heal will be very useful but definitely not make me op by any means. So have you considered that yes some skilled players will do interesting things with this but that average or sub average players will just get to enjoy the game?

This isn't like NB or Arcanist where a very simple build nets you a character with high damage and superior evasion or huge mitigation and an easy combo.

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly but just asking if you've thought out how the change effects everyone and not just specific scenarios?

But these people wont be affected by the cap then?
He just wants the change to be sustainable, that makes sense. Cheese builds are fun for like 3 days, then months of suffering lie ahead.

Well if players in general wouldn't be affected by the cap and only a lesser number of the population can make use of it then why even add one? I mean to me that sounds like someone could stand out if they had the exceptional skill which I'm perfectly ol with.

Caps and things like that should be used in cases where the majority would be too powerful such as Arcanist shield, masters de, etc. But if we're talking about a niche build that a very skilled player can run then I say sure.

Also we are in an environment where so many have high power levels easily that I don't see why we need to limit even the potential that a few sorcs might stand out.

Vaqual · February 2

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

@StaticWave

I'm catching up on multiple posts and touching on this one. These changes are for all players of different skill levels and playstyles. People are already commenting that in their testing on pts that the change feels fair currently.

Are you accounting for how others that don't want to push the max night want to play? For instance I don't use a max mag spec in the same way you do so for me the heal will be very useful but definitely not make me op by any means. So have you considered that yes some skilled players will do interesting things with this but that average or sub average players will just get to enjoy the game?

This isn't like NB or Arcanist where a very simple build nets you a character with high damage and superior evasion or huge mitigation and an easy combo.

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly but just asking if you've thought out how the change effects everyone and not just specific scenarios?

But these people wont be affected by the cap then?
He just wants the change to be sustainable, that makes sense. Cheese builds are fun for like 3 days, then months of suffering lie ahead.

Well if players in general wouldn't be affected by the cap and only a lesser number of the population can make use of it then why even add one? I mean to me that sounds like someone could stand out if they had the exceptional skill which I'm perfectly ol with.

Caps and things like that should be used in cases where the majority would be too powerful such as Arcanist shield, masters de, etc. But if we're talking about a niche build that a very skilled player can run then I say sure.

Also we are in an environment where so many have high power levels easily that I don't see why we need to limit even the potential that a few sorcs might stand out.

No I don't think the majority should be considered at all. The boundaries should always be the mathematically optimal performances (more difficult for utility skills, but pretty clear for heal/dps). If players are unable to bring the necessary skill that is 100 % on them, and at the same time, I don't think building for cheese is exceptional skill. Releasing something that can be abused/cheesed just invites nerfs long term, and we have seen how poorly those can go. Aiming for good balance early is just pragmatic. This can get tricky once a change is generally accepted and contributing to the overall class power budget, because people thend to set their priorities differently.
I am not trying to blow this out of proportion, but I completely get the concern.

Bushido2513 · February 2

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

@StaticWave

I'm catching up on multiple posts and touching on this one. These changes are for all players of different skill levels and playstyles. People are already commenting that in their testing on pts that the change feels fair currently.

Are you accounting for how others that don't want to push the max night want to play? For instance I don't use a max mag spec in the same way you do so for me the heal will be very useful but definitely not make me op by any means. So have you considered that yes some skilled players will do interesting things with this but that average or sub average players will just get to enjoy the game?

This isn't like NB or Arcanist where a very simple build nets you a character with high damage and superior evasion or huge mitigation and an easy combo.

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly but just asking if you've thought out how the change effects everyone and not just specific scenarios?

But these people wont be affected by the cap then?
He just wants the change to be sustainable, that makes sense. Cheese builds are fun for like 3 days, then months of suffering lie ahead.

Well if players in general wouldn't be affected by the cap and only a lesser number of the population can make use of it then why even add one? I mean to me that sounds like someone could stand out if they had the exceptional skill which I'm perfectly ol with.

Caps and things like that should be used in cases where the majority would be too powerful such as Arcanist shield, masters de, etc. But if we're talking about a niche build that a very skilled player can run then I say sure.

Also we are in an environment where so many have high power levels easily that I don't see why we need to limit even the potential that a few sorcs might stand out.

No I don't think the majority should be considered at all. The boundaries should always be the mathematically optimal performances (more difficult for utility skills, but pretty clear for heal/dps). If players are unable to bring the necessary skill that is 100 % on them, and at the same time, I don't think building for cheese is exceptional skill. Releasing something that can be abused/cheesed just invites nerfs long term, and we have seen how poorly those can go. Aiming for good balance early is just pragmatic. This can get tricky once a change is generally accepted and contributing to the overall class power budget, because people thend to set their priorities differently.
I am not trying to blow this out of proportion, but I completely get the concern.

I wouldn't say this would be building for cheese. It's not easy at all to run this kind of build. Watch most sorcs right now and they will show that it's hard to run this kind of build on live and you can easily get killed.

But ok throw that to the side for a second. How is anyone able to make any reasonable determination on what effect this will really have being that they are also making changes to things that can effect shields and changing the damage of status effects.

We can say on paper this is what this possibly cheese build could look like but there's no way to say how effective it would be without knowing what the player base will do to the other changes. Just seems like preparing for something to be bad on the chance that it might be viable to some particular group of players. I'm not against reasonable ideas but this is just more conjecture before the thing even happens.