The burst heal from Sorcerer's Conjured Ward and its morphs needs to be value capped

StaticWave · February 4

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

I don’t think a vote would be fair to prove the point. Out of all the people commenting in this thread, maybe 3 actually tested the shields (me, @Turtle_Bot , and @Jsmalls). 2 out of 3 agreed the burst heal is too strong and needs a cap or reworked to a HoT, and all 3 agreed it should be monitored.

The rest havent tested the shield and only heard thru other people or saw what others posted here. How would they have a fair assessment of the ability?

I strongly believe this skill will make magsorc extremely hard to kill. The only way to have a fair assessment is to have everyone download PTS and test it too. Either way, I don’t mind if the change goes live. What I’m concerned about is the history of over nerfing Sorc when something does make it to live and catches attention. We wouldn’t want that happening again.

Well I'm totally with you in the context of a 1v1 but that's most all I'm guessing that you or anyone else has been able to test and again not really relevant to what zos appears to care about.

At this point it's not really possible test how this will really end up looking in the intended environment of large and small scale pvp.

So my point about why it matters how people feel is that it's the only commonality that we all share. For instance if it was a 32k heal we would all obviously know it was too big. If it was a 1k heal we would all think it's not really going to help. My point is that if we know what looks like too much and we know what looks like too little then we can probably spot what feels like a good mid us.

So I understand you feel it needs a cap and what I'm saying is there are others that feel that it doesn't so if the numbers on both sides are remotely close that to means it needs to be tested because everyone is unable to come to an agreement.

So that's why I'm saying why not test as is and then we can actually know more about if this is a good or bad change as it stands for small and large scale encounters? And again we need to know how this will look once all players get a chance to test new builds that include ways to deal with sorcs? The testing that's being done is good in general but it's hardly exhaustive to be fair.

Okay sure but let me ask you this though. Is a 7k heal (14k if crit) with a 5k shield strong?

Galeriano · February 4

Problem with adding a cap to this heal is that it's yet another limitation on a sorc kit that is full of specific limitations and drawbacks with main ones being:

-dark deal, cast time and capped heal value
-streak, ramping cost
-shields- outdated scaling and capped values
-pets, taking two slots and being killable

There are also more universal drawbacks like general lack of usefull secondary effects on many abilities and some counterintuitive features like for example crit surge requiring crit dmg on a class that lacks sticky DoTs and major prophecy/savagery in it's kit.

Do I think that heal on shield is broken? Yes, but the think is we got to the point where in order for a class to be competitive in PvP it requires broken features without drawbacks.

StaticWave · February 4

Galeriano wrote: »

Problem with adding a cap to this heal is that it's yet another limitation on a sorc kit that is full of specific limitations and drawbacks with main ones being:

-dark deal, cast time and capped heal value
-streak, ramping cost
-shields- outdated scaling and capped values
-pets, taking two slots and being killable

There are also more universal drawbacks like general lack of usefull secondary effects on many abilities and some counterintuitive features like for example crit surge requiring crit dmg on a class that lacks sticky DoTs and major prophecy/savagery in it's kit.

Do I think that heal on shield is broken? Yes, but the think is we got to the point where in order for a class to be competitive in PvP it requires broken features without drawbacks.

Well I think it’s more healthy to have 3-4 skills that aren’t broken on their own and only when combined to carry the class, rather than 1 skill that’s so broken it carries the class. At least then you have a strong argument against nerfing all of those skills, whereas its pretty to just say “hey hardened ward is too strong let’s nerf it”

I’d rather have Surge and Dark Deal buffed to the point that Hardened Ward only requires a minor change like Interrupt Immunity to make the class strong.

Bushido2513 · February 4

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

I don’t think a vote would be fair to prove the point. Out of all the people commenting in this thread, maybe 3 actually tested the shields (me, @Turtle_Bot , and @Jsmalls). 2 out of 3 agreed the burst heal is too strong and needs a cap or reworked to a HoT, and all 3 agreed it should be monitored.

The rest havent tested the shield and only heard thru other people or saw what others posted here. How would they have a fair assessment of the ability?

I strongly believe this skill will make magsorc extremely hard to kill. The only way to have a fair assessment is to have everyone download PTS and test it too. Either way, I don’t mind if the change goes live. What I’m concerned about is the history of over nerfing Sorc when something does make it to live and catches attention. We wouldn’t want that happening again.

Well I'm totally with you in the context of a 1v1 but that's most all I'm guessing that you or anyone else has been able to test and again not really relevant to what zos appears to care about.

At this point it's not really possible test how this will really end up looking in the intended environment of large and small scale pvp.

So my point about why it matters how people feel is that it's the only commonality that we all share. For instance if it was a 32k heal we would all obviously know it was too big. If it was a 1k heal we would all think it's not really going to help. My point is that if we know what looks like too much and we know what looks like too little then we can probably spot what feels like a good mid us.

So I understand you feel it needs a cap and what I'm saying is there are others that feel that it doesn't so if the numbers on both sides are remotely close that to means it needs to be tested because everyone is unable to come to an agreement.

So that's why I'm saying why not test as is and then we can actually know more about if this is a good or bad change as it stands for small and large scale encounters? And again we need to know how this will look once all players get a chance to test new builds that include ways to deal with sorcs? The testing that's being done is good in general but it's hardly exhaustive to be fair.

Okay sure but let me ask you this though. Is a 7k heal (14k if crit) with a 5k shield strong?

Are we talking 7k on tooltip or 7k actual heal meaning 14k tooltip? I'm guessing we're talking about on sorc?

Are you saying casing a 5k shield gives you a 7k actual heal thus saying one skill prevents/resolves 12k of damage with one skill?

I wouldn't say it sounds exceptionally strong but about as strong as what other classes have.

StaticWave · February 4

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

I don’t think a vote would be fair to prove the point. Out of all the people commenting in this thread, maybe 3 actually tested the shields (me, @Turtle_Bot , and @Jsmalls). 2 out of 3 agreed the burst heal is too strong and needs a cap or reworked to a HoT, and all 3 agreed it should be monitored.

The rest havent tested the shield and only heard thru other people or saw what others posted here. How would they have a fair assessment of the ability?

I strongly believe this skill will make magsorc extremely hard to kill. The only way to have a fair assessment is to have everyone download PTS and test it too. Either way, I don’t mind if the change goes live. What I’m concerned about is the history of over nerfing Sorc when something does make it to live and catches attention. We wouldn’t want that happening again.

Well I'm totally with you in the context of a 1v1 but that's most all I'm guessing that you or anyone else has been able to test and again not really relevant to what zos appears to care about.

At this point it's not really possible test how this will really end up looking in the intended environment of large and small scale pvp.

So my point about why it matters how people feel is that it's the only commonality that we all share. For instance if it was a 32k heal we would all obviously know it was too big. If it was a 1k heal we would all think it's not really going to help. My point is that if we know what looks like too much and we know what looks like too little then we can probably spot what feels like a good mid us.

So I understand you feel it needs a cap and what I'm saying is there are others that feel that it doesn't so if the numbers on both sides are remotely close that to means it needs to be tested because everyone is unable to come to an agreement.

So that's why I'm saying why not test as is and then we can actually know more about if this is a good or bad change as it stands for small and large scale encounters? And again we need to know how this will look once all players get a chance to test new builds that include ways to deal with sorcs? The testing that's being done is good in general but it's hardly exhaustive to be fair.

Okay sure but let me ask you this though. Is a 7k heal (14k if crit) with a 5k shield strong?

Are we talking 7k on tooltip or 7k actual heal meaning 14k tooltip? I'm guessing we're talking about on sorc?

Are you saying casing a 5k shield gives you a 7k actual heal thus saying one skill prevents/resolves 12k of damage with one skill?

I wouldn't say it sounds exceptionally strong but about as strong as what other classes have.

I'm comparing Healthy Offering with a shield vs new Hardened Ward.

This is what I'm able to achieve on my NB with CP included and fully buffed (not near a keep):

This is what I'm able to achieve on my Sorc on PTS with CP included and fully buffed (not near a keep):

So my question is, do you think a 7454 heal in PvP (16.5k tooltip) that can crit for 13.9k (87% crit heal) would be too strong if it was given a 5k shield?

What about a 4k heal in PvP (8.5k tooltip) that can crit for 6.5k and a 13.5k shield? What do you think is stronger?

Turtle_Bot · February 4

StaticWave wrote: »

Okay sure but let me ask you this though. Is a 7k heal (14k if crit) with a 5k shield strong?

These specific values? Not really.

This has become the new normal for burst heal values, ever since they reworked heals to scale from offensive stats and then proceeded to give everyone 2k base raw weapon/spell damage.

It's why sorcerers healing has always felt so significantly far behind other classes, because sorc was relying on a non-scaling heal that would be 6-8k crit (dark deal/conversion), while every other class was getting a bare minimum of 13k+ crit heals, with most able to reach 20k+ crit heals (some even reaching 30k crit heals).

Like I said before, the healing value seems balanced, if anything needs looking at, it's the potential size of the ward itself when max mag is stacked that high that needs monitoring/potentially adjusting.

TBH, this could be fixed very easily if they removed the max stats from bound armor/morphs (since they are now on the expert summoner passive) and replaced the max stats on BA with major prophecy/savagery while slotted. This would fix basically everything for sorcerers outside of Lightning Splash.
- Hybridizes Bound Armor and morphs for all sorcs to make effective use of.
- Limits the potential for stat stacking, back to its current Live potentials.
- Frees up 1 bar slot on sorcs bars since they no longer need to find room for inner light/camo hunter (which reduces max mag by another 5% due to not running inner light anymore).
- Finally ties in crit surge as a properly reliable HoT.

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm comparing Healthy Offering with a shield vs new Hardened Ward.

This is what I'm able to achieve on my NB with CP included and fully buffed (not near a keep):

This is what I'm able to achieve on my Sorc on PTS with CP included and fully buffed (not near a keep):

So my question is, do you think a 7454 heal in PvP (16.5k tooltip) that can crit for 13.9k (87% crit heal) would be too strong if it was given a 5k shield?

What about a 4k heal in PvP (8.5k tooltip) that can crit for 6.5k and a 13.5k shield? What do you think is stronger?

For this specifically, it depends on the person using it, both version have their strengths and weaknesses, but are equally powerful.
The bigger shield, with smaller heal would be better for those who are able to keep their shields up proactively, while those who play more reactively would perform better with the bigger heal but smaller shield.

StaticWave · February 4

@Bushido2513 I'm not even talking about 1v1 specifically. I just switched the values around since one of the arguments was the change to Hardened Ward puts it on par with other burst heals. My argument is it would make it better than other burst heals.

A NB with a 16.5k Healthy Offering tooltip is going to heal for 7.4k in PvP and 14k if he gets a lucky crit, and that's IF he gets a crit. A Sorc on PTS will get a 4k heal in PvP and 6.5k if it crits, and a 13.5k shield on top.

If you just compare the non crit values, the shield already beats the burst heal by a large margin because there's only a 3k difference between the NB heal and the Sorc heal, but the Sorc gets a fat 13.5k shield. All those big heal values you see are crit heals, and only then you might have an argument that Hardened Ward and Healthy Offering are equal. But even then, I could argue that Hardened Ward would still be better because it becomes a multipurpose ability on the PTS. You can use it defensively or offensively to a greater effect compared to Healthy Offering.

Bushido2513 · February 4

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513 I'm not even talking about 1v1 specifically. I just switched the values around since one of the arguments was the change to Hardened Ward puts it on par with other burst heals. My argument is it would make it better than other burst heals.

A NB with a 16.5k Healthy Offering tooltip is going to heal for 7.4k in PvP and 14k if he gets a lucky crit, and that's IF he gets a crit. A Sorc on PTS will get a 4k heal in PvP and 6.5k if it crits, and a 13.5k shield on top.

If you just compare the non crit values, the shield already beats the burst heal by a large margin because there's only a 3k difference between the NB heal and the Sorc heal, but the Sorc gets a fat 13.5k shield. All those big heal values you see are crit heals, and only then you might have an argument that Hardened Ward and Healthy Offering are equal. But even then, I could argue that Hardened Ward would still be better because it becomes a multipurpose ability on the PTS. You can use it defensively or offensively to a greater effect compared to Healthy Offering.

Yeah I'd agree that the heal with the shield would be better using the build you've posted.

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

I don’t think a vote would be fair to prove the point. Out of all the people commenting in this thread, maybe 3 actually tested the shields (me, @Turtle_Bot , and @Jsmalls). 2 out of 3 agreed the burst heal is too strong and needs a cap or reworked to a HoT, and all 3 agreed it should be monitored.

The rest havent tested the shield and only heard thru other people or saw what others posted here. How would they have a fair assessment of the ability?

I strongly believe this skill will make magsorc extremely hard to kill. The only way to have a fair assessment is to have everyone download PTS and test it too. Either way, I don’t mind if the change goes live. What I’m concerned about is the history of over nerfing Sorc when something does make it to live and catches attention. We wouldn’t want that happening again.

Well I'm totally with you in the context of a 1v1 but that's most all I'm guessing that you or anyone else has been able to test and again not really relevant to what zos appears to care about.

At this point it's not really possible test how this will really end up looking in the intended environment of large and small scale pvp.

So my point about why it matters how people feel is that it's the only commonality that we all share. For instance if it was a 32k heal we would all obviously know it was too big. If it was a 1k heal we would all think it's not really going to help. My point is that if we know what looks like too much and we know what looks like too little then we can probably spot what feels like a good mid us.

So I understand you feel it needs a cap and what I'm saying is there are others that feel that it doesn't so if the numbers on both sides are remotely close that to means it needs to be tested because everyone is unable to come to an agreement.

So that's why I'm saying why not test as is and then we can actually know more about if this is a good or bad change as it stands for small and large scale encounters? And again we need to know how this will look once all players get a chance to test new builds that include ways to deal with sorcs? The testing that's being done is good in general but it's hardly exhaustive to be fair.

Okay sure but let me ask you this though. Is a 7k heal (14k if crit) with a 5k shield strong?

Are we talking 7k on tooltip or 7k actual heal meaning 14k tooltip? I'm guessing we're talking about on sorc?

Are you saying casing a 5k shield gives you a 7k actual heal thus saying one skill prevents/resolves 12k of damage with one skill?

I wouldn't say it sounds exceptionally strong but about as strong as what other classes have.

I'm comparing Healthy Offering with a shield vs new Hardened Ward.

This is what I'm able to achieve on my NB with CP included and fully buffed (not near a keep):

This is what I'm able to achieve on my Sorc on PTS with CP included and fully buffed (not near a keep):

So my question is, do you think a 7454 heal in PvP (16.5k tooltip) that can crit for 13.9k (87% crit heal) would be too strong if it was given a 5k shield?

What about a 4k heal in PvP (8.5k tooltip) that can crit for 6.5k and a 13.5k shield? What do you think is stronger?

So this gets into being a nuanced question because then you have to consider the class.

I'm ok with giving sorc this shield and heal even on the build you posted because it has lacked so much for so long and is still lacking.

Can't really compare it to nb and say nb has less because their overall bar space and kit are so much more refined. I'd honestly expect to give them less of a heal because they have so many ways to compensate.

Sorc just can't compensate on the same level so I'm ok giving it a bigger heal and shield potential. Keep in mind that I agree this isn't exactly what anyone asked for and there are better ways to address sorc. I'm just saying if this is what they are giving us then we need to be as open as possible because it might be all we get for a while and might get nerfed later.

Now to compare to nb, if frag had a significantly higher tooltip, streak didn't have a ramping cost, savagery was on one of the other sorc skills, dark deal had no cast time, etc, then yeah I wouldn't even care about getting the heal on the shield.

As it stands though for sorc I think it's fair enough to investigate as is but I'm open to changes later for sure.

Jsmalls · February 4

I've dueled for probably over 8 hours on the PTS mostly against nightblades so this might now be biased due to dueling one of the strongest 1v1 classes currently (especially with the buffs) but....

The more I duel against top tier players the more I'm feeling like this new ward is on par with their healing capabilities.

The new siphoning is giving strong healing, healthy offering is very strong and buffs other dot heals, refreshing paths gives great healing.

Now I understand this is 3 abilities mostly compared to two, ward and crit surge...

But pressure for pressure they are handling the damage output the same. I am constantly reapplying this massive ward and burst heal to keep up with the pressure the nightblade is able to put out and obviously the nightblade is doing the same for my damage output with his heals. But the duels are extremely close every time (and rather lengthy with both of us getting near execute and recovering a lot).

But this is also why I need other classes to duel... I feel like this is biased due to the strength of nightblades and non top tier players / classes wouldn't even come close to pressuring me through my shields (versus when/if I let them drop).

Turtle_Bot · February 4

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've dueled for probably over 8 hours on the PTS mostly against nightblades so this might now be biased due to dueling one of the strongest 1v1 classes currently (especially with the buffs) but....

The more I duel against top tier players the more I'm feeling like this new ward is on par with their healing capabilities.

The new siphoning is giving strong healing, healthy offering is very strong and buffs other dot heals, refreshing paths gives great healing.

Now I understand this is 3 abilities mostly compared to two, ward and crit surge...

But pressure for pressure they are handling the damage output the same. I am constantly reapplying this massive ward and burst heal to keep up with the pressure the nightblade is able to put out and obviously the nightblade is doing the same for my damage output with his heals. But the duels are extremely close every time (and rather lengthy with both of us getting near execute and recovering a lot).

But this is also why I need other classes to duel... I feel like this is biased due to the strength of nightblades and non top tier players / classes wouldn't even come close to pressuring me through my shields (versus when/if I let them drop).

This is why my first response was to call for more testing and why I tried to test is best I could to be closer to the live servers of outnumbered by stacking as many guards as I could (not entirely accurate I know, but no testing will ever match live servers due to how small the PTS population is, especially for PvP changes). This definitely provides additional information, but yes, would be nice to see other classes on the PTS for more testing.

I can actually see DK and warden theoretically being much stronger thanks to the status changes, chilled is already insanely strong (and prevalent) on wardens (and northern got a big 50% buff) and DK's DoTs will be slightly stronger overall (and they got a nice buff to sustain where burning/poisoned now gives both resources back).

Plar is something I am interested to see more testing done for. The Overcharged status got a significant buff to its damage (and sustain) and mag jabs is technically 3 chances to proc that status every cast due to being 3 instances of magic damage, which could potentially be some nice damage (not sure on this obviously, so if a plar main could provide insight here, but in theory it could be a possibility) and beam is just as strong as always. Sundered also got a boost with the unique 100 weapon/spell damage on proc which, again, stam jabs is technically 3 chances to proc it being direct physical damage. This is of course unless I missed something like jabs being excluded from proccing status effects(?).

MashmalloMan · February 4

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've dueled for probably over 8 hours on the PTS mostly against nightblades so this might now be biased due to dueling one of the strongest 1v1 classes currently (especially with the buffs) but....

The more I duel against top tier players the more I'm feeling like this new ward is on par with their healing capabilities.

The new siphoning is giving strong healing, healthy offering is very strong and buffs other dot heals, refreshing paths gives great healing.

Now I understand this is 3 abilities mostly compared to two, ward and crit surge...

But pressure for pressure they are handling the damage output the same. I am constantly reapplying this massive ward and burst heal to keep up with the pressure the nightblade is able to put out and obviously the nightblade is doing the same for my damage output with his heals. But the duels are extremely close every time (and rather lengthy with both of us getting near execute and recovering a lot).

But this is also why I need other classes to duel... I feel like this is biased due to the strength of nightblades and non top tier players / classes wouldn't even come close to pressuring me through my shields (versus when/if I let them drop).

This is why my first response was to call for more testing and why I tried to test is best I could to be closer to the live servers of outnumbered by stacking as many guards as I could (not entirely accurate I know, but no testing will ever match live servers due to how small the PTS population is, especially for PvP changes). This definitely provides additional information, but yes, would be nice to see other classes on the PTS for more testing.

I can actually see DK and warden theoretically being much stronger thanks to the status changes, chilled is already insanely strong (and prevalent) on wardens (and northern got a big 50% buff) and DK's DoTs will be slightly stronger overall (and they got a nice buff to sustain where burning/poisoned now gives both resources back).

Plar is something I am interested to see more testing done for. The Overcharged status got a significant buff to its damage (and sustain) and mag jabs is technically 3 chances to proc that status every cast due to being 3 instances of magic damage, which could potentially be some nice damage (not sure on this obviously, so if a plar main could provide insight here, but in theory it could be a possibility) and beam is just as strong as always. Sundered also got a boost with the unique 100 weapon/spell damage on proc which, again, stam jabs is technically 3 chances to proc it being direct physical damage. This is of course unless I missed something like jabs being excluded from proccing status effects(?).

Each hit is aoe direct, so 5% proc chance x3.
Burning light is single target direct, so 10% proc chance.

Force Pulse is 3x 10% as single target as a comparison, so jabs is slightly better when you consider Burning Light.

With a Charged Staff, you could make that 5% and 10%, 21.75% and 43.5% respectively or 25% and 50% in CP. It's something, but probably the least of their concerns.

Iuppiterr · February 4

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've dueled for probably over 8 hours on the PTS mostly against nightblades so this might now be biased due to dueling one of the strongest 1v1 classes currently (especially with the buffs) but....

The more I duel against top tier players the more I'm feeling like this new ward is on par with their healing capabilities.

The new siphoning is giving strong healing, healthy offering is very strong and buffs other dot heals, refreshing paths gives great healing.

Now I understand this is 3 abilities mostly compared to two, ward and crit surge...

But pressure for pressure they are handling the damage output the same. I am constantly reapplying this massive ward and burst heal to keep up with the pressure the nightblade is able to put out and obviously the nightblade is doing the same for my damage output with his heals. But the duels are extremely close every time (and rather lengthy with both of us getting near execute and recovering a lot).

But this is also why I need other classes to duel... I feel like this is biased due to the strength of nightblades and non top tier players / classes wouldn't even come close to pressuring me through my shields (versus when/if I let them drop).

This is why my first response was to call for more testing and why I tried to test is best I could to be closer to the live servers of outnumbered by stacking as many guards as I could (not entirely accurate I know, but no testing will ever match live servers due to how small the PTS population is, especially for PvP changes). This definitely provides additional information, but yes, would be nice to see other classes on the PTS for more testing.

I can actually see DK and warden theoretically being much stronger thanks to the status changes, chilled is already insanely strong (and prevalent) on wardens (and northern got a big 50% buff) and DK's DoTs will be slightly stronger overall (and they got a nice buff to sustain where burning/poisoned now gives both resources back).

Plar is something I am interested to see more testing done for. The Overcharged status got a significant buff to its damage (and sustain) and mag jabs is technically 3 chances to proc that status every cast due to being 3 instances of magic damage, which could potentially be some nice damage (not sure on this obviously, so if a plar main could provide insight here, but in theory it could be a possibility) and beam is just as strong as always. Sundered also got a boost with the unique 100 weapon/spell damage on proc which, again, stam jabs is technically 3 chances to proc it being direct physical damage. This is of course unless I missed something like jabs being excluded from proccing status effects(?).

Each hit is aoe direct, so 5% proc chance x3.

Burning light is single target direct, so 10% proc chance.

Force Pulse is 3x 10% as single target as a comparison, so jabs is slightly better when you consider Burning Light.

With a Charged Staff, you could make that 5% and 10%, 21.75% and 43.5% respectively or 25% and 50% in CP. It's something, but probably the least of their concerns.

Not really, because Burning Light procs on Force Pulse aswell.

Templar in general cant compete to classes like DK, Warden and NB right now so i dont really think you need to test that.

Duke_Falcon · February 4

StaticWave wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

These 2 builds are not the same build. I'm guessing that first build is Crafty/Wretched, while that second build is Crafty/Rallying. That second build on a Dark Elf is Unsustainable, your probably setting at 1400-1600 mag & 600 stam for recoveries.

With 20k physical resistance (which is really low) on either build your Night blade Fodder especially the one with 1.7k crit resistance.

I'm thinking that 30k HP pool is with Deathdealers fully proced, without it your setting at like 27.5k which is really low.

Your still only sitting at 4k heal on that Hardened Ward on either build.

Something else to consider is a damage shield does not reduce the damage an execute skill is doing to you when your HP is low, and a 4k heal won't bring you out of execute range, so that damage shield will be getting stripped off with every execute. If a Sorc Spams Hardened Ward they can probably live, but your resources will be gone, because that's not a cheap skill compared to an execute.

Overall I'm thinking Sorc is looking fairly balanced with the other Classes, except Necro needs help and maybe Templar could use a little lovin too.

@Duke_Falcon

Mate, the screenshot of 2nd build literally shows 1.9k magicka regen and 1k stam regen.. I also have 24k physical resist and 27k spell resist. You can literally plug that build in the editor and see the numbers. Most magsorcs also run 30k-31k HP max.

Idk it sounds like you’re just trying to find reasons to oppose me. Good luck executing thru a 13.5k ward with vamp 3 and block casting underneath (Yes, you can actually block cast the heal on PTS).

Those numbers are elevated with Continuous Attack and Major Intellect & Endurance. Those are the kind of numbers you need before Continuous and Major Intellect/Endurance, while playing a Breton, let alone a Dark Elf. That build can sustain you till your out of Resource and you will run out in sustained combat.

Duke_Falcon · February 4

You will run out of resources in short order.

Jsmalls · February 4

Here is an example of a 13 minute fight.

Now I'm not entirely sure of how the hits work because I don't believe I casted Ward 1150 times in a 780 second fight...

But what can be said is this is showing ward being used proactively versus reactively the vast majority of the time for this fight.

So nerfing the proactive side of the ability due to the reactive side, would be extremely painful (I know there was a mention of capping the Ward size within this thread).

Also now this is without champion points (I like to play in No-CP because I find it more balanced).

Twohothardware · February 4

Some of you are bound and determined to get this nerfed before it ever even hits live servers and actually gets really tested lol.

We just went through this with the new DK set Basalt Warrior last pts and what happened after the cries it was too op? Nerfed before it hit live and was actually really tested and now not one person is running that “OP” set.

StaticWave · February 5

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

These 2 builds are not the same build. I'm guessing that first build is Crafty/Wretched, while that second build is Crafty/Rallying. That second build on a Dark Elf is Unsustainable, your probably setting at 1400-1600 mag & 600 stam for recoveries.

With 20k physical resistance (which is really low) on either build your Night blade Fodder especially the one with 1.7k crit resistance.

I'm thinking that 30k HP pool is with Deathdealers fully proced, without it your setting at like 27.5k which is really low.

Your still only sitting at 4k heal on that Hardened Ward on either build.

Something else to consider is a damage shield does not reduce the damage an execute skill is doing to you when your HP is low, and a 4k heal won't bring you out of execute range, so that damage shield will be getting stripped off with every execute. If a Sorc Spams Hardened Ward they can probably live, but your resources will be gone, because that's not a cheap skill compared to an execute.

Overall I'm thinking Sorc is looking fairly balanced with the other Classes, except Necro needs help and maybe Templar could use a little lovin too.

@Duke_Falcon

Mate, the screenshot of 2nd build literally shows 1.9k magicka regen and 1k stam regen.. I also have 24k physical resist and 27k spell resist. You can literally plug that build in the editor and see the numbers. Most magsorcs also run 30k-31k HP max.

Idk it sounds like you’re just trying to find reasons to oppose me. Good luck executing thru a 13.5k ward with vamp 3 and block casting underneath (Yes, you can actually block cast the heal on PTS).

Those numbers are elevated with Continuous Attack and Major Intellect & Endurance. Those are the kind of numbers you need before Continuous and Major Intellect/Endurance, while playing a Breton, let alone a Dark Elf. That build can sustain you till your out of Resource and you will run out in sustained combat.

I didn’t have Continuous Attack

StaticWave · February 5

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

You will run out of resources in short order.

Stats on live server. On PTS add 10% max mag and stam to that. Regen is fully buffed. 1.9k is where I normally play at for either resources, and I do fine.

SIow · February 5

This is healing from my arcanist that has a bigger shield than sorcs and also really good dmg (cmx from a 1vx fight open world)

Jsmalls · February 5

So was able to duel some higher tiered players in the dueling community the other day.

This consisted of Templar, DK, Warden, and Arcanist.

For the most part I believe they were running similar setups across most characters with Asylum and Draugrkin(don't quote me on this) to take advantage of the new status effect changes.

Now the build I listed pictures of is very much an open world PvP build and is not meant for dueling alas I gave it a shot.

I lost probably 9/10 of the duels (as expected) but what needs to be noted is I was able to tank an average of 5.5k DPS while still dishing out over 3k DPS on my side (I'm more of a burst kill player but I do have decent sustained DPS) for on average a 4-5 minute fight.

Now I would consider myself a better than average player. But what needs to be discussed is how much a player should be able to handle DPS wise. Now I'm not in any way shape or form involved in the dueling community so would like others opinions that are.

The new ward being able to handle 5.5k DPS while still being offensive enough for 3k DPS. What are the opinions / thoughts on this.

But once again I lost 9/10 fights granted on a non optimal dueling setup, not taking advantage of this patches buffs to status effects.

StaticWave · February 5

Jsmalls wrote: »

So was able to duel some higher tiered players in the dueling community the other day.

This consisted of Templar, DK, Warden, and Arcanist.

For the most part I believe they were running similar setups across most characters with Asylum and Draugrkin(don't quote me on this) to take advantage of the new status effect changes.

Now the build I listed pictures of is very much an open world PvP build and is not meant for dueling alas I gave it a shot.

I lost probably 9/10 of the duels (as expected) but what needs to be noted is I was able to tank an average of 5.5k DPS while still dishing out over 3k DPS on my side (I'm more of a burst kill player but I do have decent sustained DPS) for on average a 4-5 minute fight.

Now I would consider myself a better than average player. But what needs to be discussed is how much a player should be able to handle DPS wise. Now I'm not in any way shape or form involved in the dueling community so would like others opinions that are.

The new ward being able to handle 5.5k DPS while still being offensive enough for 3k DPS. What are the opinions / thoughts on this.

But once again I lost 9/10 fights granted on a non optimal dueling setup, not taking advantage of this patches buffs to status effects.

Lol handling 5.5k dps while doing 3k 🤣🤣 4.5k DPS is enough to kill 99.9% of players, at least from my experience dueling.

I mean i already knew the outcome lol. I created this thread to warn about this. Several top-tier magsorcs i know have even said they won’t be killed next patch due to this shield change lol.

But judging from the responses I don’t think ppl want the shield change to be addressed. So enjoy several months of being unkillable haha

Turtle_Bot · February 5

Jsmalls wrote: »

So was able to duel some higher tiered players in the dueling community the other day.

This consisted of Templar, DK, Warden, and Arcanist.

For the most part I believe they were running similar setups across most characters with Asylum and Draugrkin(don't quote me on this) to take advantage of the new status effect changes.

Now the build I listed pictures of is very much an open world PvP build and is not meant for dueling alas I gave it a shot.

I lost probably 9/10 of the duels (as expected) but what needs to be noted is I was able to tank an average of 5.5k DPS while still dishing out over 3k DPS on my side (I'm more of a burst kill player but I do have decent sustained DPS) for on average a 4-5 minute fight.

Now I would consider myself a better than average player. But what needs to be discussed is how much a player should be able to handle DPS wise. Now I'm not in any way shape or form involved in the dueling community so would like others opinions that are.

The new ward being able to handle 5.5k DPS while still being offensive enough for 3k DPS. What are the opinions / thoughts on this.

But once again I lost 9/10 fights granted on a non optimal dueling setup, not taking advantage of this patches buffs to status effects.

hmmm, how was sustain? Was the survival like barely hanging on due to spamming ward, or was it very comfortable to maintain ward like an every other (or every third) cast to survive that incoming damage?

I'm also open world focused, but I'm curious on the data here. From the sounds of your testing, it seems like easy damage (status/procs, etc.) is going way up across the board, which means the current iteration of ward maybe (and this is a big maybe here) a bit more required (and should be left as is) than it would be if damage remained the same as currently on live.

Definitely like to know more on this.

Jsmalls · February 5

@Turtle_Bot

Because I use Torc of Tonal I'm riding on the edges of sustain (mostly stamina) the whole fight but this is intentional and I've become comfortable playing this way.

Ward was cast a lot (this, crit surge, and blood magic are my only heals). But doing 3k DPS definitely isn't barely surviving I'd say, so I was offensive a good amount. Keep in mind I have no DOTS (other than hurricane) so all damage done is strictly active offense.

I would say it was in between my burst pressure quite often. With several instances where I'd commit to damage knowing I'd drop low health because I felt comfortable that the ward could help me recover.

It was a very tough fight though, and I felt like I played very well to achieve those results, sort of thing.

TechMaybeHic · February 5

Twohothardware wrote: »

Some of you are bound and determined to get this nerfed before it ever even hits live servers and actually gets really tested lol.

We just went through this with the new DK set Basalt Warrior last pts and what happened after the cries it was too op? Nerfed before it hit live and was actually really tested and now not one person is running that “OP” set.

Testing it before it gets to live and addressing it is kind of the point of PTS. Not the players fault of it gets overly nerfedd and then pushed out

ilawana · February 5

It still sounds to me like the Ward will be strong, but it doesn't look like it will make Sorcerer any stronger than any of the other top tier classes. Sure you can get some crazy tooltips, but in my 7 year experience of mag Sorc pvp, those 62k mag builds are not as viable as say a 50k mag build. You lose out in other areas making it difficult to do anything in a fight that lasts more than 10 seconds. Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think this will make me overpowered in pvp at all. Sorc has been behind the other classes for awhile now, and this buff should help resolve that.

Bushido2513 · February 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Some of you are bound and determined to get this nerfed before it ever even hits live servers and actually gets really tested lol.

We just went through this with the new DK set Basalt Warrior last pts and what happened after the cries it was too op? Nerfed before it hit live and was actually really tested and now not one person is running that “OP” set.

Testing it before it gets to live and addressing it is kind of the point of PTS. Not the players fault of it gets overly nerfedd and then pushed out

There's testing and giving feedback and then there's pushing an agenda based on preconceived notions regardless of any other facts or information.

Some people give the pts way more weight than it deserves as testing tool and some use it to just push ideas they already had regardless of validity.

In this case it's hard to test exactly how this change will work because you need to see it in actual combat scenarios it is intended to function in and not just the 1v1 or overall with the same small testing group.

Testing on pts is really for larger more noticeable issues that easily stand out.

I wouldn't use the word fault exactly but would say that if ZOS relies on players for good feedback then it would be somewhat up to players to try to provide quality feedback.

StaticWave · February 5

Wait until you realize magsorc can also run charged asylum staff with crushing shock + bound armaments and proc multiple sundered + other status effects, while having 45k-50k max mag. Magsorc is arguably one of the best classes to utilize the new status effect changes due to how many instances of direct dmg it has.

ilawana · February 5

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait until you realize magsorc can also run charged asylum staff with crushing shock + bound armaments and proc multiple sundered + other status effects, while having 45k-50k max mag. Magsorc is arguably one of the best classes to utilize the new status effect changes due to how many instances of direct dmg it has.

I am sure that magblade will still get better use out of the changes, and I would argue that they will still have a easier time taking that damage than Sorc, considering they already have better survivability than Sorc and are also getting buffed.

FoJul · February 5

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

Sorc main here telling you that sorc is too strong, Devs take the hint

FoJul · February 5

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's wild that they took the most OP part of Arcanist's kit (Impervious), removed the crux requirement, and slapped it on Mag Sorc with mag scaling.

At least Arcs have to stack health and have 3 crux to make Impervious busted.

They're not exactly 1:1.

Impervious Runeward has 2 shields + the heal that stacks based on crux spent (also deals magic damage to an attacker and Arc has a shield scaling passive). I'd have to see 2 builds optimized for their versions of the shield, but based on the tooltip alone, Impervious looks like it scales the heal and upfront shield higher, with the 2nd shield lower. Obviously they have to go for health instead of mag, but that has its own pro's/con's.

Based on what @Turtle_Bot showed, the 65k mag build they attempted had terrible sustain, crit, and pen. I feel like they would constantly be running away or heavy attacking, with very little actual kill potential.

I think what will happen is more well rounded builds like Static showed, but they're still giving up some of the most broken sets right now to do it.

Idk, I don't play mag Sorc in pvp or ESO lately at all to comment properly, I just find it hard to believe a 3-5k heal proc is going to make a gigantic difference when Sorc has been complaining about shields being outdated for 5 years? I'd like some Mag Sorc mains to comment on it.

They are magsorc mains xD. Time will tell when everyone switches to sorc, and the problem becomes more noticeable.

They literally are on pts every day testing. I trust static 1000%.