The burst heal from Sorcerer's Conjured Ward and its morphs needs to be value capped

Jsmalls

For reference.

StarOfElyon

Jsmalls wrote: »

For reference.

So it needs a Magicka scaling cap, not a health cap. Let's all make sure the right issue gets addressed.

ESO_player123

I have a question. As I understand, the calls for capping/nerfing is for PvP scenarios. If so, why not call for changes under Battle spirit (or whatever distinguishes PvP situations from PvE ones) instead of just calling for flat cap/nerf?

Jsmalls

StarOfElyon wrote: »

So it needs a Magicka scaling cap, not a health cap. Let's all make sure the right issue gets addressed.

I am very adamant about insisting the heal scales from weapon/spell damage. This is the opportunity to fix that issue for Sorcs in general.... Helps Stam Sorcs as well. This nerfs the ability to have a really strong heal as well as a really large shield, while also addressing the issue where Sorcs are forced into resource stacking for their core defense. This is the solution.

MashmalloMan

Jsmalls wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

So it needs a Magicka scaling cap, not a health cap. Let's all make sure the right issue gets addressed.

I am very adamant about insisting the heal scales from weapon/spell damage. This is the opportunity to fix that issue for Sorcs in general.... Helps Stam Sorcs as well. This is the solution.

That ship sailed LOOOOOOONG into the night the moment they added the % of HP scaling a few patches back.

Nail in the coffin to that idea came this patch with the 10% mag/stam no pet passive. ZOS has this idea of Sorc they seriously don't want to let go of.

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

I think @StaticWave is underselling it...

With over 60k magicka and bastion I have over a 16k ward and up to a 9k crit heal. That's 25k effective health....

I am a Mag Sorc main and in combat my stats look like:

62k magicka, 4k spell damage, 15k pen (with major breach), 35% crit chance, 2000 of each recovery. My crit damage is low but not many good options to bring that up with a staff (could go shadow but meh).

In a 1v1 I generally have no sustain issues and group play with synergies I definitely don't.

I can stalemate a fight if I choose and only really dying if I try to push the kill or am careless.

Honestly as a magsorc main I don't see much of a problem as this isn't different than most other classes. Pretty much any class can stalemate and the game doesn't really care about 1v1 balance.

The question would be does this build do anything special in large fights or when being outnumbered? If the answer is generally no then it's in line with current expectations from ZOS.

If I can live with Arcanist tanks with damage, high health Warden, vampire mitigation, templars that can't be killed 1v1 with an unbalanced execute unblockable cheese combo, etc then this current shield design doesn't seem too crazy..

If anything this will make sorc more in line with current power levels but far from op when compared to the damage NB and dk can dish out.

As everyone knows right now you can't really stay in a fight too long without it quickly becoming outnumbered or NB bait. This current heal will give someone a better chance to survive but no more so than other top tier classes can.

grzes848909

Many people already said it before but.
Change the instant health to a heal over time. Less likely to be abused by spamming shields and there are already 3 (soon 4) instant restoring abilities sorc has.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

You won' be affected if you don't stack 60k max mag.

FYI, here are screenshots of 2 builds and Ward size + heal tooltip in PvP:

1) Crafty + Rally Cry + DDF + Chudan, all regen glyphs:



2) Wretched + Rally + DDF + Chudan, all spell dmg glyphs:




Crafty build has 48.5k max mag and Wretched build has 41k max mag. Slightly more sustain on Wretched build, but less damage than Crafty.

12.7k ward and 7.3k heal with 48.5k max mag, no Focused Mending CP or near a keep.

The actual healing done is still halved by battle spirit though, so the heals from your 2 tooltips shown here would be 3.5k and 3k non crit heals respectively on top of the 13/11k shields respectively, which is 100% within tolerances for a balanced burst heal equivalent.

Yeah I really don't see the problem here. The shield can't crit, the heal can, but it will be a lower original value in comparison to any other burst heal that can crit. Benefit being the Sorc can use the shield proactively.

We have sets like Dragon's Appetite giving a free 10k heal every 5s when the main draw of the set is the damage bonus to your ticks, but for a skill it's suddenly too powerful?

Time will tell, for now it seems balanced, I don't see most builds going 60k+ Mag and if they do, they've got a pretty weak HP pool, pen, or crit chance so it's not like it was free to obtain.

I think most people will go the 30-40k HP route, which means the burst heal will be pretty minimal to begin with.

60k is for the extreme builds, but 50k+ is already doable, as demonstrated in my screenshot above. In that screenshot I had 48k+ max mag in crafty/rallying cry, and could pump it to 52k with the mage mundus and another piece of arcane trait. At 48k max mag the tool tip for the heal is at 7.3k, so at 52k mag it would be around 8k. That’s the almost the same tooltip value as Dark Deal, which can crit for 8k.

I am ok with the heal tooltip around 5-6k, but when it reached 7-8k then it becomes a problem.

The actual heal in PvP on my 64k max mag build was 6k non crit though (completely buffed too, max DDF stacks, vitality from encase, etc). So it is already within tolerances. What was making the ability look so strong was the shield size. That is what needs adjusting, but it needs adjusting exclusively for mag stacking builds so that more well rounded builds don't get a what is supposed to be their bread and butter defensive option removed from them entirely.

If anything is done at all, maybe cap the shield size to 12k when battle spirit is active. It keeps its current scaling so that all sorcs can use it effectively and still have a combined heal + shield value of around 11-15k (depending on active buffs) that is on par with every other classes burst heals even when the sorc is not stacking max mag, but it prevents max mag from getting a 6k heal + a 15-16k shield.

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

I think @StaticWave is underselling it...

With over 60k magicka and bastion I have over a 16k ward and up to a 9k crit heal. That's 25k effective health....

I am a Mag Sorc main and in combat my stats look like:

62k magicka, 4k spell damage, 15k pen (with major breach), 35% crit chance, 2000 of each recovery. My crit damage is low but not many good options to bring that up with a staff (could go shadow but meh).

In a 1v1 I generally have no sustain issues and group play with synergies I definitely don't.

I can stalemate a fight if I choose and only really dying if I try to push the kill or am careless.

I've tested that build as well, without meteor up it has very little kill potential due to slotting so many abilities to make hardened ward that strong. The main thing that does any damage on that build are the status effects from ele sus, with how they got buffed, they hard carry the damage for that build.

The heal portion actually seems fine in your example (assuming that was fully buffed like my heals were), what is not fine is the ward size, it should cap at 12k (in PvP). Read my previous post for more details.

Turtle_Bot

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I have a question. As I understand, the calls for capping/nerfing is for PvP scenarios. If so, why not call for changes under Battle spirit (or whatever distinguishes PvP situations from PvE ones) instead of just calling for flat cap/nerf?

I'm trying.

If anything is done at all, maybe cap the shield size to 12k when battle spirit is active. It keeps its current scaling so that all sorcs can use it effectively and still have a combined heal + shield value of around 11-15k (depending on active buffs) that is on par with every other classes burst heals even when the sorc is not stacking max mag, but it prevents max mag from getting a 6k heal + a 15-16k shield.

olsborg

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

If you play 60k max mag on a magsorc in pvp, youre seriously lacking utility and sustain. Sure it works in 1v1s probably, but open world , not so much. IMO

silentxthreat

you wont be getting a 60k mag sheild in real pvp without target dummy buffs. stop watching memes on youtube

Jsmalls

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I've tested that build as well, without meteor up it has very little kill potential due to slotting so many abilities to make hardened ward that strong. The main thing that does any damage on that build are the status effects from ele sus, with how they got buffed, they hard carry the damage for that build.

The heal portion actually seems fine in your example (assuming that was fully buffed like my heals were), what is not fine is the ward size, it should cap at 12k (in PvP). Read my previous post for more details.

@Turtle_Bot

Against good player it does lack kill potential. Generally I'll use dawnbreaker instead of meteor. But I do have overload back barred and Overload is an extremely good ultimate and creates extreme pressure and significantly increases kill potential. But that being said it's a projectile build which I feel like good players counter well.

And yes it has two abilities that are passive buffs. Dropping yourself down to 8 abilities. That being said Sorcs don't have a great arsenal to pick from. What dots are there to add degeneration? What execute is there to slot wrath? I'd rather my core abilities hit harder than having either of those on my bar. Wrath is usually not worth the gcds and if I'm only going to add one Dot it's not going to make a significant difference. That's my two sense.

As far as your suggestion, I think if you do that you nerf proactive defense while buffing reactive defense. Which may be a solution. But I also think scaling the heal on weapon/spell damage has better potential or rather helps create more diversification.

You have the option to stack into resources and have a larger proactive defense. Or you can stack into damage and have a better reactive defense.

The scaling would have to drop 4000~ spell damage down to a 3-4k heal (in PvP) while giving a ~8000 spell damage set a 8k heal (under a likely 8k ward).

This means if you choose the resource route you have less damage but a larger overall defense (4k+16k=20k) versus a higher damage lower defense (8k+8k=16k).

Something with scaling like that.

Feel like that is the best of both worlds and gives Sorcs some diversity....

ESO_player123

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I have a question. As I understand, the calls for capping/nerfing is for PvP scenarios. If so, why not call for changes under Battle spirit (or whatever distinguishes PvP situations from PvE ones) instead of just calling for flat cap/nerf?

I'm trying.

If anything is done at all, maybe cap the shield size to 12k when battle spirit is active. It keeps its current scaling so that all sorcs can use it effectively and still have a combined heal + shield value of around 11-15k (depending on active buffs) that is on par with every other classes burst heals even when the sorc is not stacking max mag, but it prevents max mag from getting a 6k heal + a 15-16k shield.

Thank you.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

You won' be affected if you don't stack 60k max mag.

FYI, here are screenshots of 2 builds and Ward size + heal tooltip in PvP:

1) Crafty + Rally Cry + DDF + Chudan, all regen glyphs:



2) Wretched + Rally + DDF + Chudan, all spell dmg glyphs:




Crafty build has 48.5k max mag and Wretched build has 41k max mag. Slightly more sustain on Wretched build, but less damage than Crafty.

12.7k ward and 7.3k heal with 48.5k max mag, no Focused Mending CP or near a keep.

The actual healing done is still halved by battle spirit though, so the heals from your 2 tooltips shown here would be 3.5k and 3k non crit heals respectively on top of the 13/11k shields respectively, which is 100% within tolerances for a balanced burst heal equivalent.

Yeah I really don't see the problem here. The shield can't crit, the heal can, but it will be a lower original value in comparison to any other burst heal that can crit. Benefit being the Sorc can use the shield proactively.

We have sets like Dragon's Appetite giving a free 10k heal every 5s when the main draw of the set is the damage bonus to your ticks, but for a skill it's suddenly too powerful?

Time will tell, for now it seems balanced, I don't see most builds going 60k+ Mag and if they do, they've got a pretty weak HP pool, pen, or crit chance so it's not like it was free to obtain.

I think most people will go the 30-40k HP route, which means the burst heal will be pretty minimal to begin with.

60k is for the extreme builds, but 50k+ is already doable, as demonstrated in my screenshot above. In that screenshot I had 48k+ max mag in crafty/rallying cry, and could pump it to 52k with the mage mundus and another piece of arcane trait. At 48k max mag the tool tip for the heal is at 7.3k, so at 52k mag it would be around 8k. That’s the almost the same tooltip value as Dark Deal, which can crit for 8k.

I am ok with the heal tooltip around 5-6k, but when it reached 7-8k then it becomes a problem.

The actual heal in PvP on my 64k max mag build was 6k non crit though (completely buffed too, max DDF stacks, vitality from encase, etc). So it is already within tolerances. What was making the ability look so strong was the shield size. That is what needs adjusting, but it needs adjusting exclusively for mag stacking builds so that more well rounded builds don't get a what is supposed to be their bread and butter defensive option removed from them entirely.

If anything is done at all, maybe cap the shield size to 12k when battle spirit is active. It keeps its current scaling so that all sorcs can use it effectively and still have a combined heal + shield value of around 11-15k (depending on active buffs) that is on par with every other classes burst heals even when the sorc is not stacking max mag, but it prevents max mag from getting a 6k heal + a 15-16k shield.

I am fine with a cap to shields. I enjoy the sorc buffs too and would love for them to go live, but we also have to be objective and non-biased. A 12k shield with a 6-7k heal tooltip is fine. A 15k shield with a 9-10k heal tooltip is not fine. It's like putting a 10k shield on a 15k heal Healthy Offering. I'm sure most people here would be against that.

Twohothardware

I say they leave it as is until we see how it plays on live and just let Sorc be OP for a few patches to shake up the current meta a little.

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I've tested that build as well, without meteor up it has very little kill potential due to slotting so many abilities to make hardened ward that strong. The main thing that does any damage on that build are the status effects from ele sus, with how they got buffed, they hard carry the damage for that build.

The heal portion actually seems fine in your example (assuming that was fully buffed like my heals were), what is not fine is the ward size, it should cap at 12k (in PvP). Read my previous post for more details.

@Turtle_Bot

Against good player it does lack kill potential. Generally I'll use dawnbreaker instead of meteor. But I do have overload back barred and Overload is an extremely good ultimate and creates extreme pressure and significantly increases kill potential. But that being said it's a projectile build which I feel like good players counter well.

And yes it has two abilities that are passive buffs. Dropping yourself down to 8 abilities. That being said Sorcs don't have a great arsenal to pick from. What dots are there to add degeneration? What execute is there to slot wrath? I'd rather my core abilities hit harder than having either of those on my bar. Wrath is usually not worth the gcds and if I'm only going to add one Dot it's not going to make a significant difference. That's my two sense.

As far as your suggestion, I think if you do that you nerf proactive defense while buffing reactive defense. Which may be a solution. But I also think scaling the heal on weapon/spell damage has better potential or rather helps create more diversification.

You have the option to stack into resources and have a larger proactive defense. Or you can stack into damage and have a better reactive defense.

The scaling would have to drop 4000~ spell damage down to a 3-4k heal (in PvP) while giving a ~8000 spell damage set a 8k heal (under a likely 8k ward).

This means if you choose the resource route you have less damage but a larger overall defense (4k+16k=20k) versus a higher damage lower defense (8k+8k=16k).

Something with scaling like that.

Feel like that is the best of both worlds and gives Sorcs some diversity....

I'd be fine with scaling it that way as well, maybe 7k spell damage = 8k heal (with ~7-8k shield) since sorcerer doesn't have a lot of spell damage scaling passives/effects thanks to being originally designed around max stat stacking.

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

You won' be affected if you don't stack 60k max mag.

FYI, here are screenshots of 2 builds and Ward size + heal tooltip in PvP:

1) Crafty + Rally Cry + DDF + Chudan, all regen glyphs:



2) Wretched + Rally + DDF + Chudan, all spell dmg glyphs:




Crafty build has 48.5k max mag and Wretched build has 41k max mag. Slightly more sustain on Wretched build, but less damage than Crafty.

12.7k ward and 7.3k heal with 48.5k max mag, no Focused Mending CP or near a keep.

The actual healing done is still halved by battle spirit though, so the heals from your 2 tooltips shown here would be 3.5k and 3k non crit heals respectively on top of the 13/11k shields respectively, which is 100% within tolerances for a balanced burst heal equivalent.

Yeah I really don't see the problem here. The shield can't crit, the heal can, but it will be a lower original value in comparison to any other burst heal that can crit. Benefit being the Sorc can use the shield proactively.

We have sets like Dragon's Appetite giving a free 10k heal every 5s when the main draw of the set is the damage bonus to your ticks, but for a skill it's suddenly too powerful?

Time will tell, for now it seems balanced, I don't see most builds going 60k+ Mag and if they do, they've got a pretty weak HP pool, pen, or crit chance so it's not like it was free to obtain.

I think most people will go the 30-40k HP route, which means the burst heal will be pretty minimal to begin with.

60k is for the extreme builds, but 50k+ is already doable, as demonstrated in my screenshot above. In that screenshot I had 48k+ max mag in crafty/rallying cry, and could pump it to 52k with the mage mundus and another piece of arcane trait. At 48k max mag the tool tip for the heal is at 7.3k, so at 52k mag it would be around 8k. That’s the almost the same tooltip value as Dark Deal, which can crit for 8k.

I am ok with the heal tooltip around 5-6k, but when it reached 7-8k then it becomes a problem.

The actual heal in PvP on my 64k max mag build was 6k non crit though (completely buffed too, max DDF stacks, vitality from encase, etc). So it is already within tolerances. What was making the ability look so strong was the shield size. That is what needs adjusting, but it needs adjusting exclusively for mag stacking builds so that more well rounded builds don't get a what is supposed to be their bread and butter defensive option removed from them entirely.

If anything is done at all, maybe cap the shield size to 12k when battle spirit is active. It keeps its current scaling so that all sorcs can use it effectively and still have a combined heal + shield value of around 11-15k (depending on active buffs) that is on par with every other classes burst heals even when the sorc is not stacking max mag, but it prevents max mag from getting a 6k heal + a 15-16k shield.

I am fine with a cap to shields. I enjoy the sorc buffs too and would love for them to go live, but we also have to be objective and non-biased. A 12k shield with a 6-7k heal tooltip is fine. A 15k shield with a 9-10k heal tooltip is not fine. It's like putting a 10k shield on a 15k heal Healthy Offering. I'm sure most people here would be against that.

Don't worry, I do agree that that level of healing (well healing/shielding) that comes close to, but not quite polar levels, is definitely very, very strong.

It's just, as I stated before, these changes are finally a good step in the right direction for sorcs to start bringing them into the modern state of ESO and I mostly just don't want to see something that the class has been needing for far too long now, nerfed into the ground before it even makes it to live.
We both know just how quick ZOS is to over correct anything/everything that becomes even remotely strong on sorc, so that is where my main concern lies. I do want it balanced, but not if that means completely gutting it for every other build just to have it balanced for the niche outlier build, such that it might as well never have been changed in the first place.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is capped.

Conjured Ward: This ability and the Hardened Ward morph will now heal you for 15% of your Max Health or Magicka (whichever is higher) if no pets were shielded by the abilities.

Regenerative Ward (morph): This morph now also heals you for 10% of your Max Health or Magicka, regardless of if a pet was affected by the shield or not.

No different from any other heal that has an arbitrary cap as opposed to just scaling from damage/resource like normal skills.

Not capped enough, especially with new sorc passive giving 10% mag.

With 50k mag which is easy to get next patch, Hardened Ward becomes an actual burst heal on top of a 13k ward. It’s too strong imo.

Bah. I do that right now with my Arcanist. This just brings the Sorc wards in line with Impervious.

Look at what they did...add heals to sorc shields and add group shields to mines. Just a copying functionality.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is capped.

Conjured Ward: This ability and the Hardened Ward morph will now heal you for 15% of your Max Health or Magicka (whichever is higher) if no pets were shielded by the abilities.

Regenerative Ward (morph): This morph now also heals you for 10% of your Max Health or Magicka, regardless of if a pet was affected by the shield or not.

No different from any other heal that has an arbitrary cap as opposed to just scaling from damage/resource like normal skills.

Not capped enough, especially with new sorc passive giving 10% mag.

With 50k mag which is easy to get next patch, Hardened Ward becomes an actual burst heal on top of a 13k ward. It’s too strong imo.

Bah. I do that right now with my Arcanist. This just brings the Sorc wards in line with Impervious.

Look at what they did...add heals to sorc shields and add group shields to mines. Just a copying functionality.

Sorc has way more damage than arcanist though. This change alone will make Sorc better, at least if we compare builds that don't use proc sets.

ZOS_Hadeostry

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Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is capped.

Conjured Ward: This ability and the Hardened Ward morph will now heal you for 15% of your Max Health or Magicka (whichever is higher) if no pets were shielded by the abilities.

Regenerative Ward (morph): This morph now also heals you for 10% of your Max Health or Magicka, regardless of if a pet was affected by the shield or not.

No different from any other heal that has an arbitrary cap as opposed to just scaling from damage/resource like normal skills.

Not capped enough, especially with new sorc passive giving 10% mag.

With 50k mag which is easy to get next patch, Hardened Ward becomes an actual burst heal on top of a 13k ward. It’s too strong imo.

Bah. I do that right now with my Arcanist. This just brings the Sorc wards in line with Impervious.

Look at what they did...add heals to sorc shields and add group shields to mines. Just a copying functionality.

Sorc has way more damage than arcanist though. This change alone will make Sorc better, at least if we compare builds that don't use proc sets.

Currently right now a sorc isn't killing an Arcanist with similar skill level but that Arcanist might kill the sorc if the sorc stays for the fight. This change would just even them out to where the sorc didn't have to immediately withdraw. As I said before though the game isn't really balanced around 1v1 so I think outnumbered the sorc would have a better overall chance but still be quite killable by a group.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is capped.

Conjured Ward: This ability and the Hardened Ward morph will now heal you for 15% of your Max Health or Magicka (whichever is higher) if no pets were shielded by the abilities.

Regenerative Ward (morph): This morph now also heals you for 10% of your Max Health or Magicka, regardless of if a pet was affected by the shield or not.

No different from any other heal that has an arbitrary cap as opposed to just scaling from damage/resource like normal skills.

Not capped enough, especially with new sorc passive giving 10% mag.

With 50k mag which is easy to get next patch, Hardened Ward becomes an actual burst heal on top of a 13k ward. It’s too strong imo.

Bah. I do that right now with my Arcanist. This just brings the Sorc wards in line with Impervious.

Look at what they did...add heals to sorc shields and add group shields to mines. Just a copying functionality.

Sorc has way more damage than arcanist though. This change alone will make Sorc better, at least if we compare builds that don't use proc sets.

Currently right now a sorc isn't killing an Arcanist with similar skill level but that Arcanist might kill the sorc if the sorc stays for the fight. This change would just even them out to where the sorc didn't have to immediately withdraw. As I said before though the game isn't really balanced around 1v1 so I think outnumbered the sorc would have a better overall chance but still be quite killable by a group.

This change will make both stam and mag Sorc tankier than Arcanist

Aces-High-82

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

StaticWave

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:




This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

StaticWave

Chudan/Crafty/Rallying Cry/DDF, pretty basic build. I had 51k max mag, 30k hp, 27k stam, 3.7k spell dmg, 1.9k mag regen and 1k stam regen, 3.3k crit resist, 27k spell and 24k phys resist back bar. Using charged so pen is lower but status effects are strong next patch so it makes up for the pen loss.



13.6k ward with 8.6k heal tooltip, and 20.9k frag tooltip when procced with only 1 dmg CP (Deadly Aim). Non crit heals are 4k, and crit heals are 6.4k (with only 60% crit healing modifier)

Non crit ward heal:



Crit ward heal:

Zodiarkslayer

I disagree. The changes are good.

PvP should be ignored for balance changes.

Only changes to battle spirit should be considered.

Aces-High-82

Looks absolutely acceptable compared to eg offering or coag but your already gimping your damage running a Max Stat Set.
To achieve higher mag you'd sacrifice even more gear traits, chc, chd, boon, racial choice, cp's.....

notReclaimer

10% up to a maximum of 45k or 50k there u go fixed.

StaticWave

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Looks absolutely acceptable compared to eg offering or coag but your already gimping your damage running a Max Stat Set.
To achieve higher mag you'd sacrifice even more gear traits, chc, chd, boon, racial choice, cp's.....

Cmon man healthy offering and coag don’t always crit lol… that’s such a skewed comparison. 13.6k ward at all times + a 4k heal that can potentially crit for 6.5k is already stronger than a coag.

I don’t want sorc to become another NB tank class. This change going thru will make it just that.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Looks absolutely acceptable compared to eg offering or coag but your already gimping your damage running a Max Stat Set.
To achieve higher mag you'd sacrifice even more gear traits, chc, chd, boon, racial choice, cp's.....

Cmon man healthy offering and coag don’t always crit lol… that’s such a skewed comparison. 13.6k ward at all times + a 4k heal that can potentially crit for 6.5k is already stronger than a coag.

I don’t want sorc to become another NB tank class. This change going thru will make it just that.

So I was testing a similar build on live with more armor and a 12k or so ward and of course no heal. It's not an easy build to protect yourself in so yes I think higher end players will make this change really shine, get in more 1vx, etc.


The average player will live longer and be able to have a chance to streak away and come back but won't be able to really just absolutely face tank most common pvp scenarios.

Like with one or multiple high damage builds coming at you this heal will keep you from dying but not by a degree that other classes don't currently enjoy.

In fact I might just actually survive templar execute with this but probably not any other player hitting me at the same time or dual executes. My point being that bad on my experience as a sorc main and what I see from other high and mid tier sorcs, this change would mostly just level things on average.



Also, and this is very important @StaticWave , why try to pre nerf something when other factors are changing that will affect the outcome of the change in ways we can't predict?

With the status effect changes and shield changes we can't predict what the new meta will be so why try to nerf now when what's on paper might not even be enough once all players get access and start developing build? Then what, you ask to buff the very thing you asked to be nerfed and just have to wait?