Radiant Oppression, Radiant Oppression, Radiant Oppression…

SandandStars

I am noticing in battlegrounds on Xbox NA lately more and more people using tanky/uber defensive Templar builds that exclusively spam radiant oppression when they are not self healing and bubbling.

I took a screenshot of a death recap that showed three people on an opposing team spamming RO at me in unison repeatedly. Not sure how many times total as nothing but RO filled up the recap.

I understand that Templar is in a really undynamic and crappy spot right now, and this is pretty much what’s left for it to do. But I just can’t imagine that anyone finds it that much fun?

Is anyone else noticing this trend on different platforms?

Constant radiant oppression beams are becoming as bad as the Vateshran spammers.

Sluggy

I mean... if it wasn't that it would be jab jab jab jab jab. People are generally going to attack you with something. It's just more obvious than a lot of other things because of how blatant the ability is compared to many others. It's also an execute with a very long windup time so by the time you are in execute range if they don't already have the beam on you it probably won't do much. On top of that it heals. So they aren't really stopping their self heals while doing it.

Dagoth_Rac

Sluggy wrote: »

I mean... if it wasn't that it would be jab jab jab jab jab. People are generally going to attack you with something. It's just more obvious than a lot of other things because of how blatant the ability is compared to many others. It's also an execute with a very long windup time so by the time you are in execute range if they don't already have the beam on you it probably won't do much. On top of that it heals. So they aren't really stopping their self heals while doing it.

Radiant Glory is the heal morph. If it was Radiant Oppression on death recap, that is the extra execute damage morph.

Sluggy

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

I mean... if it wasn't that it would be jab jab jab jab jab. People are generally going to attack you with something. It's just more obvious than a lot of other things because of how blatant the ability is compared to many others. It's also an execute with a very long windup time so by the time you are in execute range if they don't already have the beam on you it probably won't do much. On top of that it heals. So they aren't really stopping their self heals while doing it.

Radiant Glory is the heal morph. If it was Radiant Oppression on death recap, that is the extra execute damage morph.

Ah well, fair play then. I don't use the skill myself so I guess I forgot which morph does what. I'm not really sure why someone would choose that morph in pvp to be honest. Seems like a tiny amount of extra damage traded for yet another source of heal stacking. Though, I guess Templars are already practically immortal so what's another heal at that point anyway? *shrug*

Nihilr

What I'm hearing is:

Group BG's still crossing into solo BG's queue. Mainly why I dislike playing them.

There always seems to be 1 team that sticks so close together the entire match and their classes are all the same or they have coordinated sets/abilities and wrecks the rest of us.

The fair matches between every team are when you can tell that there are no pre-grouped players. Usually during a BG weekend event.

Edit: I do accept my losses, when our solo BG team fails but the other teams are evenly matched and seem to be coordinating in chatbox and not in voicechat. Otherwise the highly coordinated/synchronized teams are suspicious.

Dagoth_Rac

Sluggy wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

I mean... if it wasn't that it would be jab jab jab jab jab. People are generally going to attack you with something. It's just more obvious than a lot of other things because of how blatant the ability is compared to many others. It's also an execute with a very long windup time so by the time you are in execute range if they don't already have the beam on you it probably won't do much. On top of that it heals. So they aren't really stopping their self heals while doing it.

Radiant Glory is the heal morph. If it was Radiant Oppression on death recap, that is the extra execute damage morph.

Ah well, fair play then. I don't use the skill myself so I guess I forgot which morph does what. I'm not really sure why someone would choose that morph in pvp to be honest. Seems like a tiny amount of extra damage traded for yet another source of heal stacking. Though, I guess Templars are already practically immortal so what's another heal at that point anyway? *shrug*

It is the preferred morph shown on most ESO build pages. It is not really all that much more damage over base skill, but min/max players gonna min/max. And lots of players go into BG/Cyrodiil with meta PvE builds because that is what they read is good on Alcast or Xynode or whatever.

merpins

Previous templar main here! We don't like it, so the majority of us moved on to different classes until Templar is fixed. Personally, I won't be returning to plar unless Jabs is reverted to its previous animation because the current animation is bad.

mmtaniac

Revert jabs and remove undeath + nerf overperforming sets.

AcadianPaladin

Revert the lightning destro staff changes that nerfed AoE and buffed channeled. That will tone down Radiant while compensating to AoE and HA builds. And jabs needs some love also as it is currently not worth slotting and therefore encourages more Radiant use.

Baconlad

Ahem...it may have been me...I've built totally around soul assault and jbeam as my spammable. Full glass canon...super fun. I ran with two other magplar and we were rolling around doing nothing but beaming for an entire match. We weren't pre-made. It just worked out that way and it was HILLARIOUS.

When your jbeam hits for a 3k light attack, followed by 12k jbeam and burning light proc. Just one more beam and you can't even block it without snb...super fun and trolly.

ItsNotLiving

Jabs were OP but I’ve seen the game without OP jabs and it’s way worse……. lol…

Billium813

As with most things, Radiant Destruction is OP in multiples. If you have 3 Templars all spamming together, Radiant Destruction can be very powerful! From my solo Templar experience (not a coordinated group), Radiant Destruction is mostly powerful because I can snipe kills from really far away! Someone else gets them low, but I get the kill even when I'm not even really nearby... HOWEVER, when alone against a competent opponent or 1vX, Radiant Destruction is really not that good at all... Also, Radiant Glory heals so well that I don't really need to worry about the fact that my other HoTs just stopped... I can spam, spam, spam and only stop if they run out of line of sight, or out heal me.

Seems to me one of the biggest issues with Radiant Destruction is the range. If it were shorter range, it may be harder for groups to coordinate strikes while being out of danger. Solo Templars may find it harder to snipe from a safe location too. I also think the heal + magicka sustain from Radiant Glory just encourages it to be MORE brain dead.

Perhaps Radiant Destruction could scale the execute based on the distance to the enemy? Personally, I would like to see Radiant Glory also redesigned to non-DPS (see Blinding Light) and have Radiant Oppression be the high dmg, DPS morph with no heal. But nerfing Radiant Destruction without buffing PotL might just kill the class entirely. Players are spamming Radiant Destruction cause it's what ZOS has decided all Templars should be playing (stamplar or magplar). It's just bad design ZOS...

StarOfElyon

They overnerfed jabs and then gave a buff that no one asked for to radiant oppression/glory to compensate. So instead of being op in melee, they're op at range. It's like Sheogorath is in charge of combat changes.

Urzigurumash

Jabs spam metas are the lowest point of skillfulness ESO has ever seen

Delete the skill and move on

SandandStars

Yeah, I also tend to chagrin anything I perceive as an “effective” one button build. Unfortunately, the state of templar right now just about forces this playing style. Build as tanky/healy as possible, spam RO. Maybe toss in a couple javelins when the servers are struggling and watch your opponent enjoying a very prolonged knockdown.

It’s not dynamic, challenging gameplay. It’s crap.

SmellyUnlimited

I’ve noticed this a lot on PS NA. All they need to do is run Deadly with heavy armor and they’re sitting pretty. If it’s not that, then it’s HA sorcs just running around holding the R2 button as if that’s fun.

StarOfElyon

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Jabs spam metas are the lowest point of skillfulness ESO has ever seen

Delete the skill and move on

I think my idea to add a ramping cost (like streak has) to jabs/sweeps would've been enough to balance it.

gariondavey

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Jabs spam metas are the lowest point of skillfulness ESO has ever seen

Delete the skill and move on

I think my idea to add a ramping cost (like streak has) to jabs/sweeps would've been enough to balance it.

Adding a ramping cost to a spammable or execute is not a good idea.

Erickson9610

Roll Dodge has a ramping cost because of its ability to evade attacks. I'm not sure why Bolt Escape and Mist Form have ramping costs, but it's probably because of their evasive capabilities.

Ramping costs should be applied to abilities which allow you to evade attacks (either by gaining distance or by dodging attacks outright), not to abilities which are typically used as spammables. It's worth noting that ramping costs are effectively this game's way to manipulate resource management in a way to simulate ability cooldowns (save for the cooldowns seen when a channeled ability is interrupted or the ability cooldowns for Companions or the Werewolf Behemoth form).


I think a better solution for making executes and spammables (such as Biting Jabs, Radiant Oppression, Howl of Agony, heavy attacks, etcetera) spammed less is to encourage the use of other abilities. Generally speaking, any time a player needs to heal, reapply a damage over time to enemies, or buff themselves, they'll stop using their spammable for some number of global cooldowns (GCDs).

Maybe it would be worth taking a look at all of the game's spammables to see which ones overperform, i.e. which ones do more than just dealing damage. If we want players to take GCDs to buff themselves or heal, then their spammable ability shouldn't also buff themselves and heal. Otherwise, there would be no point in using any other ability but their spammable.

Nihilr

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Jabs spam metas are the lowest point of skillfulness ESO has ever seen

Delete the skill and move on

I think my idea to add a ramping cost (like streak has) to jabs/sweeps would've been enough to balance it.

Ramping cost for using the same ability twice in a row is great actually. People want to just spam and hit the same button over and over. This would force players to rotate skills and even slot more than 1 of a heal/attack/damage-shield skill. Can't just spam it over and over anymore. Same idea with Sorc Streak and Vamp Mist.

merpins

Nihilr wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Jabs spam metas are the lowest point of skillfulness ESO has ever seen

Delete the skill and move on

I think my idea to add a ramping cost (like streak has) to jabs/sweeps would've been enough to balance it.

Ramping cost for using the same ability twice in a row is great actually. People want to just spam and hit the same button over and over. This would force players to rotate skills and even slot more than 1 of a heal/attack/damage-shield skill. Can't just spam it over and over anymore. Same idea with Sorc Streak and Vamp Mist.

That's just cooldowns with extra steps. If we had more than 5 slots + an ultimate on each bar, then maybe this would be fine.
Templar is in a bad spot already, don't need to throw more salt in the already open wounds of Templar players.

Billium813

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think a better solution for making executes and spammables (such as Biting Jabs, Radiant Oppression, Howl of Agony, heavy attacks, etcetera) spammed less is to encourage the use of other abilities. Generally speaking, any time a player needs to heal, reapply a damage over time to enemies, or buff themselves, they'll stop using their spammable for some number of global cooldowns (GCDs).

Maybe it would be worth taking a look at all of the game's spammables to see which ones overperform, i.e. which ones do more than just dealing damage. If we want players to take GCDs to buff themselves or heal, then their spammable ability shouldn't also buff themselves and heal. Otherwise, there would be no point in using any other ability but their spammable.

I totally agree.

And it's one of the reasons why I hate how Radiant Glory is designed. Having issues staying alive while channeling Radiant Glory? We added a heal. Having a hard time sustaining it as a spammable? We added magicka regen to it. [snip] Instead of fixing issues on the Class to improve general playability, they just keep putting more and more stuff into 1-2 Skills to fix the issues they keep finding. Where are the Passive fixes? Where are the creative fixes to resolve the root of the issue? [snip]

[snip] Players are getting more and more dependent on these handful of Skills instead of being encouraged to diversify their play style and use multiple Skill, they are making bad build decisions and creating crutches. I was in another thread where a Stamplar was trying to defend how Radiant Glory is necessary for their build. I mean, there should be alternative ways to build! Players are getting stuck in these ruts and making ass-backward builds.

[edited for bashing]

Billium813

Nihilr wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Jabs spam metas are the lowest point of skillfulness ESO has ever seen

Delete the skill and move on

I think my idea to add a ramping cost (like streak has) to jabs/sweeps would've been enough to balance it.

Ramping cost for using the same ability twice in a row is great actually. People want to just spam and hit the same button over and over. This would force players to rotate skills and even slot more than 1 of a heal/attack/damage-shield skill. Can't just spam it over and over anymore. Same idea with Sorc Streak and Vamp Mist.

There are really only two functional ways to influence player actions through design: Stick and Carrot. The game can either exert tremendous force with restrictions or punishments (Stick) OR, they can incentivize players gameplay through rewards (Carrot).

Ramping costs is really more of a Stick approach. Incentivizing players to play other Skills because of timers (DoTs, buffs) or procs (passives, sets) would be more of the Carrot approach. Both are valid design methodologies, but it's critical to understand which circumstances to use which design. It really is all about using the correct tool for the job.

Unfortunately, ZOS keeps making design decisions that are meant to increase accessibility, but are really just exposing all of this [snip] design. Increasing duration timers, hybridization, making Skill passives function on both bars. These all sound good on paper, but they are just drying up the 1 inch of depth the combat system even has to begin with. We really need massive changes at this point to make these "quality of life combat improvements" lead to a well designed and thought-out combat system.

Personally, I think ramping costs should be the last resort. I would much rather see ZOS incentivize players to stop casting the spammable because there are other things they need to do! That follows that the spammable shouldn't be the entire kitchen sink! It should be very much designed to do a specific thing well (like damage), but fall off if other aspects of the gameplay are neglected. I think one good place to start looking for a fix is in the Passives. Templar's are pretty trash. How about we diversify the sustain off of the spammables so that players naturally need to do other things?

[edited for bashing]

Nihilr

Billium813 wrote: »

...We really need massive changes at this point to make these "quality of life combat improvements" lead to a well designed and thought-out combat system.

Personally, I think ramping costs should be the last resort. I would much rather see ZOS incentivize players to stop casting the spammable because there are other things they need to do!

Players were already playing with spammables before they re-balanced the DoT/HoT timers. That change was to make it feel less robotic/repeating.

If they want to truly make combat feel more natural and rewarding I'd like to see all the attack animations fully completed. 🙄

(And don't call "full-animation cooldowns" a stick method, because the animations being incomplete just to remain competitive as I have been, is more of a stick imo).

Billium813

Nihilr wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

...We really need massive changes at this point to make these "quality of life combat improvements" lead to a well designed and thought-out combat system.

Personally, I think ramping costs should be the last resort. I would much rather see ZOS incentivize players to stop casting the spammable because there are other things they need to do!

Players were already playing with spammables before they re-balanced the DoT/HoT timers. That change was to make it feel less robotic/repeating.

Yes, spammables have been in the game since the beginning. All these changes are pushing a design direction. That direction is based on a totally reasonable accessibility idea, but in practice, I think it's playing out as bad for the game. Increasing timers and durations only serves to give players more time to spam. Simple as that really.

Nihilr wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

...We really need massive changes at this point to make these "quality of life combat improvements" lead to a well designed and thought-out combat system.

Personally, I think ramping costs should be the last resort. I would much rather see ZOS incentivize players to stop casting the spammable because there are other things they need to do!

If they want to truly make combat feel more natural and rewarding I'd like to see all the attack animations fully completed. 🙄

(And don't call "full-animation cooldowns" a stick method, because the animations being incomplete just to remain competitive as I have been, is more of a stick imo).

I'm not sure what that means. Are you talking about animation cancelling?

Zodiarkslayer

Ramping costs are wrong.
If a skill is so good, that casting it repeatedly is the only way left to play effectively, than the skill needs a nerf and the other class skills need a buff, opening up options.

Punishing players for playing the only way that is left to them is wrong. Just wrong!

El_Borracho

Templar has been reduced to RO spamming in BGs for a while now. Its really the only reason to bring a Templar into BGs. I;d rather have the class nerfs be undone and Templar brought back. No need to further gimp a gimped class

SandandStars

Speaking of spammables, what if a single, cheap, spammable skill did all of this:

Slash an enemy, dealing 2323 Magic Damage. If you strike an enemy from their flank you set them Off Balance. When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or cast Concealed Weapon while under the effects of Major Expedition while in combat, gain Major Berserk for 10 seconds, increasing your damage done by 10%. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition increasing your Movement Speed by 15%.


Instant cast, no clunky animation, no ramping cost, Major Berserk, Minor Expedition at all times for just slotting it.

Compare this to your class spammable and see what you think.

Billium813

SandandStars wrote: »

Speaking of spammables, what if a single, cheap, spammable skill did all of this:

Slash an enemy, dealing 2323 Magic Damage. If you strike an enemy from their flank you set them Off Balance. When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or cast Concealed Weapon while under the effects of Major Expedition while in combat, gain Major Berserk for 10 seconds, increasing your damage done by 10%. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition increasing your Movement Speed by 15%.


Instant cast, no clunky animation, no ramping cost, Major Berserk, Minor Expedition at all times for just slotting it.

Compare this to your class spammable and see what you think.

It's definitely a total mess mechanically and way too wordy. Half of those things feel like they should be Shadow Passives in some way too. A good example of the devs putting on blinders, over focusing on one morph, and obviously having a Nightblade build in mind they are trying to push.

Also, personally, I hate the Berserk buff. I think that buffing all damage is too generic [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Galeriano

Beam main issue in PvP is the distance. 36+ meters on the strongest undodgable execute in the game is just too much. This is why there is so many beam spammers in PvP lately. Side effect of this is also templar not getting buffs in other areas because he have two abilities (beam and javelin) that are highly abused right now.

SandandStars

Bump on javelin. When I get hit with jav, I’m down for eternity. This poor game. We, the poor players.