How long until Arcanist Nerfs???

SaffronCitrusflower

FoJul wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t think Arcanist is the strongest class in the Endless Archives or any content but rather seems balanced. Necro feels weakest of the different classes I’ve tried in EA as in all content. Sorc is frustrating once pets are near insta-killed (which should be fixed in addition to non-pet builds having viable heal and dps options). Dragonknight feels strong, and I don’t wish for that class to be nerfed any more than arcanist; rather I hope necro and sorc get some improvements and additional options for viable builds.

Seems balanced but you can push 1 button and out dps every other class....Right not to mention you slot the shield and you aint dying either...

Totally balanced.

Which one button do arcanists push for massive dps? (serious question, because arcanist is not very strong dps wise as far as I can tell)

NoSoup

For me the difference between Arcanist and the other classes is that I can go into Endless Archive with 30k hp, 30k resistences and a weakening infused backbar weapon and still do 50k dps on the first bosses. On all my other classes, to go in with the same tankiness means having to wait until the 3rd arc before their dps is matching what my Arcanist starts with as they're relying on visions to get their dps up.

IZZEFlameLash

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

birdik

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

IZZEFlameLash

birdik wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

And yes, innate nature of their damage being AoE makes it so that you don't have to adjust in between fights. And how does their nature of damage being cleave make them OP? More than anything, other classes need their passives updated. Since some classes passives and skills are stuck way back in the beginning of the game or made worse since then because of all the nerf callings.

birdik

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

And yes, innate nature of their damage being AoE makes it so that you don't have to adjust in between fights. And how does their nature of damage being cleave make them OP? More than anything, other classes need their passives updated. Since some classes passives and skills are stuck way back in the beginning of the game or made worse since then because of all the nerf callings.

Mb cause their cleave equals solo damage of other classes?)

SandandStars

I dont pve much, but when I do on arcanist, it clears a room with less effort than any other class.

In pvp it’s super tanky & boring. Spam colorless pool. Melt frozen opponent with beam. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Not OP, imo, but boring as templar to play in pvp (radiant o, radiant o, radiant o, radiant o….)

I think Turtle’s suggestion of spreading out fatecarver’s dmg over runeblades is a good direction. The class needs some dynamism.

francesinhalover

Never!!! Cries T_T , arcanist is the main reason im even playing eso atm. Nerfing it would be awfull...but reworks?!? Would break my heart.

If not for arcanist i would had never done vet dlc dungeons! Other classes just feel...yeah...

Id rather other classes are upgraded. Z did a godtier job with arcanist. No need to ruin it.

And nerfs because of pvp? Ughhhh pvp.

francesinhalover

NoSoup wrote: »

To start with, this is NOT a "please nerf" thread. I personally feel the arcanist is fine in strength and if anything needs to change the other classes should be brought up to it. That being said, after about 15 or so hours in Endless Archive on various classes it's definitely obvious that the Arcanist is much stronger than the other classes. We saw this with both the Warden and Necro when they came out, both classes were very strong initially before being toned down heaps. For necros they have probably gone from once being the strongest class to likely the weakest now. Sooo, how much longer do we have before we start seeing the same cycle with the Arcanist? Will we start to see it with the next major update or will we have another quarter to enjoy them?

Warden has been the worst dps on parsing since 2017. Still worse than necro

Galeriano

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

And yes, innate nature of their damage being AoE makes it so that you don't have to adjust in between fights. And how does their nature of damage being cleave make them OP? More than anything, other classes need their passives updated. Since some classes passives and skills are stuck way back in the beginning of the game or made worse since then because of all the nerf callings.

It's not just AoE. It's combionation of dmg, sustain and survivability. Arcanist have all of these aspects either the best or one of the best accros the board.

Just sustain alone is insane on arcanist compared to other classes. When other classes in oder to produce high numbers need to consume on average 2-3k reource per second when arcanist uses fatecarver he is consuming like 1k resource per second while also having lots of resource return.

Than there is shield on pragmatic fatecarver that can reach over 25k which adds tons of passive survivability when needed.

It's also worth to mention that even CP system is favouring arcanist because when other classes need to find balance between single target and AoE dmg, arcanist have way easier time with CP distribution due to the fact majority of his dmg is AoE DoT.

As it is right now fatecarver is extremly overloaded ability that combineds too many things at once.

Galeriano

francesinhalover wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

To start with, this is NOT a "please nerf" thread. I personally feel the arcanist is fine in strength and if anything needs to change the other classes should be brought up to it. That being said, after about 15 or so hours in Endless Archive on various classes it's definitely obvious that the Arcanist is much stronger than the other classes. We saw this with both the Warden and Necro when they came out, both classes were very strong initially before being toned down heaps. For necros they have probably gone from once being the strongest class to likely the weakest now. Sooo, how much longer do we have before we start seeing the same cycle with the Arcanist? Will we start to see it with the next major update or will we have another quarter to enjoy them?

Warden has been the worst dps on parsing since 2017. Still worse than necro

Warden was never unbeatable number 1 but there were times when he was high on the list.

IZZEFlameLash

Galeriano wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

And yes, innate nature of their damage being AoE makes it so that you don't have to adjust in between fights. And how does their nature of damage being cleave make them OP? More than anything, other classes need their passives updated. Since some classes passives and skills are stuck way back in the beginning of the game or made worse since then because of all the nerf callings.

It's not just AoE. It's combionation of dmg, sustain and survivability. Arcanist have all of these aspects either the best or one of the best accros the board.

Just sustain alone is insane on arcanist compared to other classes. When other classes in oder to produce high numbers need to consume on average 2-3k reource per second when arcanist uses fatecarver he is consuming like 1k resource per second while also having lots of resource return.

Than there is shield on pragmatic fatecarver that can reach over 25k which adds tons of passive survivability when needed.

It's also worth to mention that even CP system is favouring arcanist because when other classes need to find balance between single target and AoE dmg, arcanist have way easier time with CP distribution due to the fact majority of his dmg is AoE DoT.

As it is right now fatecarver is extremly overloaded ability that combineds too many things at once.

CP points distribution goes to whatever the class's primary viable defenses and offenses are. No one is having harder time deciding which points goes where with CP than other classes really. If someone does, that just means the person is playing the class without much knowledge of the class. Non-beginner wouldn't make a pvp NB or Sorc investing in DoT and AoE damage boost CPs when their class is all about direct, single target damage. Also, non-beginner player wouldn't make a PvE build without actually taking a look at what skills are their main sources of damage

Also, Fatecarver isn't really overloaded. It isn't stacked with named buffs as secondary like many of NB skills. All it does is damage that one can miss because it needs to be aimed. You can actually miss the damage on a boss that is just banging on your tank because for some reason, your aim apparently isn't targetting the boss despite looking straight at it.

Shield on Fatecarver isn't a strange thing. Almost every single offensive channel time skills have some sort of healing and/or damage reduction attached to them with the exception of Soul Assault (but then, it does force your opponent into blocking or kiting with fairly high damage). Shield is another form of damage mitigation in the game that hadn't been used by ZOS before on channel time skills and is thematic to the class. It is consistent with other channel skills in the game.

Sustain, I don't know. This is too subjective for the most part, because it depends on the player's resource management skills as I've come to learn. Not everyone can sustain equally on the same recovery number. So, due to 'your experience may vary' factor, won't comment further than this.

Galeriano

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

And yes, innate nature of their damage being AoE makes it so that you don't have to adjust in between fights. And how does their nature of damage being cleave make them OP? More than anything, other classes need their passives updated. Since some classes passives and skills are stuck way back in the beginning of the game or made worse since then because of all the nerf callings.

It's not just AoE. It's combionation of dmg, sustain and survivability. Arcanist have all of these aspects either the best or one of the best accros the board.

Just sustain alone is insane on arcanist compared to other classes. When other classes in oder to produce high numbers need to consume on average 2-3k reource per second when arcanist uses fatecarver he is consuming like 1k resource per second while also having lots of resource return.

Than there is shield on pragmatic fatecarver that can reach over 25k which adds tons of passive survivability when needed.

It's also worth to mention that even CP system is favouring arcanist because when other classes need to find balance between single target and AoE dmg, arcanist have way easier time with CP distribution due to the fact majority of his dmg is AoE DoT.

As it is right now fatecarver is extremly overloaded ability that combineds too many things at once.

CP points distribution goes to whatever the class's primary viable defenses and offenses are. No one is having harder time deciding which points goes where with CP than other classes really. If someone does, that just means the person is playing the class without much knowledge of the class. Non-beginner wouldn't make a pvp NB or Sorc investing in DoT and AoE damage boost CPs when their class is all about direct, single target damage. Also, non-beginner player wouldn't make a PvE build without actually taking a look at what skills are their main sources of damage

Also, Fatecarver isn't really overloaded. It isn't stacked with named buffs as secondary like many of NB skills. All it does is damage that one can miss because it needs to be aimed. You can actually miss the damage on a boss that is just banging on your tank because for some reason, your aim apparently isn't targetting the boss despite looking straight at it.

Shield on Fatecarver isn't a strange thing. Almost every single offensive channel time skills have some sort of healing and/or damage reduction attached to them with the exception of Soul Assault (but then, it does force your opponent into blocking or kiting with fairly high damage). Shield is another form of damage mitigation in the game that hadn't been used by ZOS before on channel time skills and is thematic to the class. It is consistent with other channel skills in the game.

Sustain, I don't know. This is too subjective for the most part, because it depends on the player's resource management skills as I've come to learn. Not everyone can sustain equally on the same recovery number. So, due to 'your experience may vary' factor, won't comment further than this.

The difference is that most classes have way less distinctive primary sources of dmg. When other classes have like 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30 split between AoE and single target or between DoT and direct dmg arcanist deals around 90% dmg as AoE and around 90% dmg as DoT so it's becoming way easier for him to buff his dmg through CPs because 2 specific slotable perks will be buffing more than 90% of his dmg when for other classes 2 specific slotable perks will be buffing maybe 70% of their dmg. Arcanist is literally getting 1 slottable perk for free simply because biting aura and thaumaturge for him works as good or even better than biting aura+thaumaturge+master at arms/deadly aim for other classes.

Fatecarver is overloaded. It's highest AoE+single target dmg, ranged ability with extremly low cost that can be also used as defensive tool with pragmatic fatecarver morph. Thing with named buffs is that in group content You will be getting most of the important named buffs anyway. This is why mentioned by You nb despite having tons of named buffs is now considered as one of the weakest group content DDs, because he is lacking unique features. Features that fatecarver is full of. Oh and guess what every ability needs to be aimed fatecarver just have different rules for aiming that are really not hard to learn.

Shield on a chanell ability is not consistant with other chanell skills in the game. Not 25k+ shield atleast. The difference between healing or dmg reduction on other chanelled abilities and fatecarver is that shield is Your HP extension. If You are about to take 40k hit that small dmg reduction or healing will do nothing for You but 25k shield will allow You to facetank that hit. And funnily enough arcanist also have healing on a flail.

If You want to produce high numbers You need to consume certain amount of resources and that's a fact. Resource managment can be subjective but arcanist is objectively way easier to manage resources than any other class as DD simply because fatacerver is extra cheap to use. Players resource managment skills won't change the fact that in order to produce high numbers You will have to use skills that cost 2-3k almost every second on every class except arcanist. That also gives arcanist way more freedom to micromanage sets like coral riptide.

IZZEFlameLash

Galeriano wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Because the class is easy to play. And when you bring easy to play class for your trifectas, you tend to succeed that run more often. It allows DDs to actually die less because there's less things to keep in mind since bosses hit back unlike idle dummy that get parsed on. Flails + beam + ult combo is as easy as it gets to get reasonable DPS. But you still need trial gears and rotation mastery to hit top notch DPS that is on similar levels to other classes.

No it because cleave damage on boss.

And yes, innate nature of their damage being AoE makes it so that you don't have to adjust in between fights. And how does their nature of damage being cleave make them OP? More than anything, other classes need their passives updated. Since some classes passives and skills are stuck way back in the beginning of the game or made worse since then because of all the nerf callings.

It's not just AoE. It's combionation of dmg, sustain and survivability. Arcanist have all of these aspects either the best or one of the best accros the board.

Just sustain alone is insane on arcanist compared to other classes. When other classes in oder to produce high numbers need to consume on average 2-3k reource per second when arcanist uses fatecarver he is consuming like 1k resource per second while also having lots of resource return.

Than there is shield on pragmatic fatecarver that can reach over 25k which adds tons of passive survivability when needed.

It's also worth to mention that even CP system is favouring arcanist because when other classes need to find balance between single target and AoE dmg, arcanist have way easier time with CP distribution due to the fact majority of his dmg is AoE DoT.

As it is right now fatecarver is extremly overloaded ability that combineds too many things at once.

CP points distribution goes to whatever the class's primary viable defenses and offenses are. No one is having harder time deciding which points goes where with CP than other classes really. If someone does, that just means the person is playing the class without much knowledge of the class. Non-beginner wouldn't make a pvp NB or Sorc investing in DoT and AoE damage boost CPs when their class is all about direct, single target damage. Also, non-beginner player wouldn't make a PvE build without actually taking a look at what skills are their main sources of damage

Also, Fatecarver isn't really overloaded. It isn't stacked with named buffs as secondary like many of NB skills. All it does is damage that one can miss because it needs to be aimed. You can actually miss the damage on a boss that is just banging on your tank because for some reason, your aim apparently isn't targetting the boss despite looking straight at it.

Shield on Fatecarver isn't a strange thing. Almost every single offensive channel time skills have some sort of healing and/or damage reduction attached to them with the exception of Soul Assault (but then, it does force your opponent into blocking or kiting with fairly high damage). Shield is another form of damage mitigation in the game that hadn't been used by ZOS before on channel time skills and is thematic to the class. It is consistent with other channel skills in the game.

Sustain, I don't know. This is too subjective for the most part, because it depends on the player's resource management skills as I've come to learn. Not everyone can sustain equally on the same recovery number. So, due to 'your experience may vary' factor, won't comment further than this.

The difference is that most classes have way less distinctive primary sources of dmg. When other classes have like 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30 split between AoE and single target or between DoT and direct dmg arcanist deals around 90% dmg as AoE and around 90% dmg as DoT so it's becoming way easier for him to buff his dmg through CPs because 2 specific slotable perks will be buffing more than 90% of his dmg when for other classes 2 specific slotable perks will be buffing maybe 70% of their dmg. Arcanist is literally getting 1 slottable perk for free simply because biting aura and thaumaturge for him works as good or even better than biting aura+thaumaturge+master at arms/deadly aim for other classes.

Fatecarver is overloaded. It's highest AoE+single target dmg, ranged ability with extremly low cost that can be also used as defensive tool with pragmatic fatecarver morph. Thing with named buffs is that in group content You will be getting most of the important named buffs anyway. This is why mentioned by You nb despite having tons of named buffs is now considered as one of the weakest group content DDs, because he is lacking unique features. Features that fatecarver is full of. Oh and guess what every ability needs to be aimed fatecarver just have different rules for aiming that are really not hard to learn.

Shield on a chanell ability is not consistant with other chanell skills in the game. Not 25k+ shield atleast. The difference between healing or dmg reduction on other chanelled abilities and fatecarver is that shield is Your HP extension. If You are about to take 40k hit that small dmg reduction or healing will do nothing for You but 25k shield will allow You to facetank that hit. And funnily enough arcanist also have healing on a flail.

If You want to produce high numbers You need to consume certain amount of resources and that's a fact. Resource managment can be subjective but arcanist is objectively way easier to manage resources than any other class as DD simply because fatacerver is extra cheap to use. Players resource managment skills won't change the fact that in order to produce high numbers You will have to use skills that cost 2-3k almost every second on every class except arcanist. That also gives arcanist way more freedom to micromanage sets like coral riptide.

As I've said, channeled abilities almost always has a defensive aspect attached to it, especially when a channel is long. Shield on Fatecarver really is consistent as shield is a defensive aspect that ZOS hasn't attached to a long channel ability before. Just because it isn't x% damage reduction while channeling or heal for x% of the damage done doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game. Shield on Fatecarver is just enough to survive a boss heavy attack during channeling. It won't allow Arcanist to survive any better when the adds or other persistent mechanics come into play. Afterwards, either you spam beam and do pitiful amount of damage with just a single or no crux or you start dodging attacks and use 3 crux beam after the mechanics.

For Fatecarver to deal the amount of damage what other classes deal with stacks of DoTs and direct damage within the beam's channel time, Arcanist has to build up 3 Crux. 1 is easy if you run Inspired Scholarship. However, other 2 requires you to be casting generator. Since the beam is a channel and require build ups, the payoff has to be worth it as the channel locks your character in performing this act unless cancelled.

NB and Arcanist are in different situations. NB's problem stems from the class kits save for 2 DoTs being all centered around short bursts while bosses are literal damage sponges. And dungeons and trials often have large amount of trash/adds and so, NB and Sorc falls off in those regards as PvE contents are somewhat of exact opposite of what the class is for. So, no amount of buffs will fix them for PvE. Arcanist on the other hand is made for PvE, clearly designed to have more people engage in something beyond overland and non-DLC dungeons with the class. All the while, the class itself has to crutch hard on meta sets in PvP unlike NB where pretty much all sets could work.

Billium813

My biggest issues with Fatecarver are 1) how fast it hits, 2) its range.

1) Fatecarver ticks damage every 0.3 seconds. This is fairly similar to Puncturing Strikes actually. Templar Puncturing Strikes has a channel time of 0.8 seconds, but deals damage 3 times, so the timing is similar. Fair enough, but dealing damage every 0.3 seconds is still pretty fast. It quite literally out speeds most other damages that players are trying to use. Many AOEs are 1 second or more on how often they tick damage.

This is important because the damage applies so fast that Arcanist is often going to get substantially more hits before any other damage even has any chance in applying. Other damages are wasting time in spooling up or needing to be applied before the initial damage tick. Arcanist will get 3 hits to most other AOEs 1 hit and WILL be the last hit. That's a lot when the damage is already so high.

2) Fatecarver has a range of 22m. Yeah... 22m. That's ... really far. It covers a significant area in a large aoe. It melts mob packs and the player barely has to move at all. There's very little the player needs to do at all. It's basically a ranged ability so players don't need to get into the thick of combat to deal the damage. For a range ability, the damage is REALLY high.

Imagine a Biting Jabs that channeled for 4 seconds and had a range of 22m... that's what Fatecarver is. Lots of players like to complain about mindless Templars jabs jabs jabs when Jabs is too strong. That's exactly what Arcanist is now. Fatecarver is too strong, so why would Arcanist do anything else?

MudcrabAttack

Currently one beam cast replaces the perfect execution of light attack, skill, light attack, skill, light attack, skill, light attack, skill, light attack, skill. The main reason it could feel OP is it provides max efficiency in one button press, the other option of light attack weaving every second can add fractions of a second between all the skills and drop DPS

Devs could try bringing a similar option of the beam mechanic to all classes in the form of another skill line. Not the same exact mechanic, just offer a little help with the timing where one skill can replace many. Something like vampiric drain, which offers a 3-second channel, but it would have to be a lot stronger

OtarTheMad

Fatecarver is perfectly fine. It has a kiss-curse element to it and is self nerfed since it needs crux in order to reach max power. That means that you are pretty limited to what spammables you can use on an Arcanist, you need to keep earning crux now or they vanish in 30 seconds. So that eliminates using Force Pulse as a spammable, it has to be Runeblades.

Honestly, I find it just as easy, when it comes to melting PvE mobs, to cast Wall of Elements and Pulsar. Also with Ele drain and the magicka return passive I can keep spamming them pretty easily. Mobs melt just as fast.

Even the shield isn’t that big of a deal in places like PvP because it is only active when the ability is and the “uninterruptible” part is very literal… you can’t interrupt them but knock backs, fears, stuns, knock ups and more all work if you need to stop someone from casting Fatecarver but if you walk up and hold block and bash them to interrupt them, it most likely won’t do much. Don’t believe me? Jump on an Arcanist and fight a two handed npc or an clannfear, they will stop you from beaming with something. Also in PvP this ability is insanely easy to avoid. Arcanist are almost at a disadvantage in PvP because they rely very heavily on needing crux for power.

The 22m is pretty far but also not far at the same time. In PvP that range actually hurts you because most, if not all, of the other ranged abilities are 28m which means you have to be in at least medium range to fight people and they can easily avoid you just by staying far away which makes your attacks pointless. In PvE, well NPCs are dumb and will just charge you and unless you’re fighting a boss the attacks won’t hurt so you’re usually good.

In terms of PvE dps Arcanist is probably 3rd or 4th best class, nothing insane but what makes them popular is that they are easier to use in terms of rotation. In PvP Arcanist is probably 4th or 5th for damage. For someone like me, I can’t do those complex rotations, beyond 3 or 4 skills my mind just wonders and I forget what I need to do which ruins any sort of high dps chance. Arcanist allows me to focus more on what I am doing because I only need to do 3 skills and keep that Inspiration buff up… that’s easier for me. I’ll still never hit top end dps but I can get slightly more consistent numbers.

React

This is obviously low MMR since it's a brand new character. But this is my first instance of PVPing on arcanist. I have 42k health in BGs pushing 2-3M damage most games, effortlessly surviving everything. When I say effortless, I mean that I can survive an entire team hitting me without ever feeling like I'm at risk of dying. By the way, I'm running full damage sets. Damage 5 PC on the body, mdw front, vat ice back, maarselok, 1 druid 1 trainee, DDF.

Defensively, the class is broken. Easily the tankiest thing in the game from a PVP perspective. Offensively it's not the best in PVP - but in PVE it's a strong DPS and by far the easiest spec to DPS on.

It needs defensive nerfs. The shield ultimate needs to be re evaluated, and the impervious runeward morph absolutely needs to be nerfed. I know that PVE tank players aren't going to like me saying this, but shields or heals that scale with max HP promote an extremely unhealthy PVP meta that encourages players to build as tanky as possible while sourcing all their damage from proc sets, dots, and status effects. This needs to be addressed.

OtarTheMad

React wrote: »

This is obviously low MMR since it's a brand new character. But this is my first instance of PVPing on arcanist. I have 42k health in BGs pushing 2-3M damage most games, effortlessly surviving everything. When I say effortless, I mean that I can survive an entire team hitting me without ever feeling like I'm at risk of dying. By the way, I'm running full damage sets. Damage 5 PC on the body, mdw front, vat ice back, maarselok, 1 druid 1 trainee, DDF.

Defensively, the class is broken. Easily the tankiest thing in the game from a PVP perspective. Offensively it's not the best in PVP - but in PVE it's a strong DPS and by far the easiest spec to DPS on.

It needs defensive nerfs. The shield ultimate needs to be re evaluated, and the impervious runeward morph absolutely needs to be nerfed. I know that PVE tank players aren't going to like me saying this, but shields or heals that scale with max HP promote an extremely unhealthy PVP meta that encourages players to build as tanky as possible while sourcing all their damage from proc sets, dots, and status effects. This needs to be addressed.

Well first off you, like you mentioned, are in low MMR matches which for those who do not understand what that means… it means that a good player could walk into a low MMR match with divines light armor and probably tank a ton of damage because low MMR usually means players who don’t know battlegrounds or pvp and don’t have the right builds for it. Also, you are wearing the completely broken meta sets so that really skews the numbers.

I do agree that Arcanist is tanky, probably the 2nd or third best tank in the game, and I do agree that the shield ultimate needs to be adjusted but I disagree with Imprevious and things being based on HP. It’s really hard to base any opinion on Arcanist when anyone is wearing those broken sets. The same thing happened with Necro and harmony bombing. Everyone complained about necro bombers and then harmony got nerfed but so did the self-synergy grave robber and now the ability is trash. All because some didn’t understand that it was harmony that made that so great, not necro. Hell, players were also bombing with Templar Nova LoL.

I think there could be more things in the game to combat things based on health builds. Maybe buff oblivion damage a bit, buff Hrothgar set a bit, that new set that gives pen to you when hitting players blocking could be buffed too. Players also sometimes have to learn that it’s okay to have different builds and bars for different situations in PvP.

Brakkish

@React
You've shown us that; a highly skilled, high performing player with OP sets, absolutely smoked a lot of "green players."
Could arguably do that with any class.

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

reazea

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

Billium813

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Currently one beam cast replaces the perfect execution of light attack, skill, light attack, skill, light attack, skill, light attack, skill, light attack, skill. The main reason it could feel OP is it provides max efficiency in one button press, the other option of light attack weaving every second can add fractions of a second between all the skills and drop DPS

I really feel like this is most of Fatecarvers power, plus its range. It has a way higher damage floor then other Skills because of how fast it damages and it's long range.

Players don't need to weave, or need to stack DoTs, or lay down other AOEs that take a couple seconds to spool up, or wait for a proc, or get in the enemies face. You come into the room, maybe cast 1 Cephaliarch’s Flail, then you level all of the ads from the door. All from range. Precast Inspired Scholarship, Cephaliarch’s Flail for damage buff and crux, then beam which procs crux too. Rinse repeat. It's really nutty just how much damage it has from 22m away, 2 skills, and how quickly it clears an entire room of enemies. Why spend time with Stampede? They literally kill the enemies before you even get there! Why use Whirling Blades? You'd actually have to MOVE your character and risk taking damage. Carve? Lol, that has a radius of only 6m and takes a whole second to proc 1/3 of the damage that Fatecarver does...

The whole toolkit is parasitic. Inspired Scholarship last 30 seconds, makes everything else generate the crux you need, buffs your class damage, gives Major Brutality/Sorcery just for being slotted, and is a prebuff. Cephaliarch’s Flail again increases your class damage, generates more crux, and heals. Then Fatecarver comes in and dusts everything while having an impressive shield (and procs another crux for the next rotation). Lol, playing with it feels like easy mode and totally brain dead.

React

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Well first off you, like you mentioned, are in low MMR matches which for those who do not understand what that means… it means that a good player could walk into a low MMR match with divines light armor and probably tank a ton of damage because low MMR usually means players who don’t know battlegrounds or pvp and don’t have the right builds for it. Also, you are wearing the completely broken meta sets so that really skews the numbers.

This whole statement is inaccurate. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're getting hit by 4 people in no CP while wearing light divines you will instantly die.

Furthermore, suggesting that "the data is skewed because you're wearing meta sets" doesn't make any sense. I'm wearing meta damage sets, and the part of the class that is broken is the defensive side. Have you tried playing solo wearing full damage on any other class recently? It is extremely difficult to survive any outnumbered scenario without serious investment into defense right now, because of the absurd amount of free damage present from status effects, proc sets, dots, ele susc, etc. If I were to take this build on any other class into the same battleground environment, with many of those classes being ones I have thousands of hours on instead of the one hour I spent on these BG games, I'd have had probably 10+ deaths.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I do agree that Arcanist is tanky, probably the 2nd or third best tank in the game, and I do agree that the shield ultimate needs to be adjusted but I disagree with Imprevious and things being based on HP. It’s really hard to base any opinion on Arcanist when anyone is wearing those broken sets. The same thing happened with Necro and harmony bombing. Everyone complained about necro bombers and then harmony got nerfed but so did the self-synergy grave robber and now the ability is trash. All because some didn’t understand that it was harmony that made that so great, not necro. Hell, players were also bombing with Templar Nova LoL.

What experience exactly are you basing this claim of it being the "2nd or 3rd best tank in the game" on? I have played 4 classes solo open world this patch. Arcanist, NB, DK, and sorc. I am running 1-3 defensive sets on all 3 of the other classes, and I have thousands of hours of experience on all of them - and surviving on any of those classes compared to my arcanist who is wearing 0 defensive sets is night and day. I can effortlessly face tank people and make infinite mistakes on the arcanist because the classes defenses are so strong. I make one mistake on NB or sorc and I die, and my DK who is wearing thrassians, kynmarchers, trickery, and bloodspawn in 4 pieces of heavy armor isn't even half as tanky as my full damage arcanist.

I just don't know how anybody with actual PVP experience could state that health scaling heals/wards aren't completely broken. Arcanist is the hardest thing to kill because you can run 40k hp with a health scaling ward that makes you effectively have 60k hp, and heals that scale off that health as well. You know what the next hardest thing to kill after any given 40k+ hp arcanist is? A 40k+ hp warden using polar wind, another health scaling heal.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I think there could be more things in the game to combat things based on health builds. Maybe buff oblivion damage a bit, buff Hrothgar set a bit, that new set that gives pen to you when hitting players blocking could be buffed too. Players also sometimes have to learn that it’s okay to have different builds and bars for different situations in PvP.

I disagree. Rather than buffing proc sets and unmitigable free damage, which are things that are exacerbating the current disgusting meta we have, why not address the actual issue which is that max health is too high in PVP and health scaling defenses are too effective?

Brakkish wrote: »

@React
You've shown us that; a highly skilled, high performing player with OP sets, absolutely smoked a lot of "green players."
Could arguably do that with any class.

Speaking as that player, I would not have gotten these same scoreboards on other classes while running a 0 sustain 0 defensive set build like what I used on this class. Nothing else can survive like arcanist can.

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

OtarTheMad

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

OtarTheMad

React wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Well first off you, like you mentioned, are in low MMR matches which for those who do not understand what that means… it means that a good player could walk into a low MMR match with divines light armor and probably tank a ton of damage because low MMR usually means players who don’t know battlegrounds or pvp and don’t have the right builds for it. Also, you are wearing the completely broken meta sets so that really skews the numbers.

This whole statement is inaccurate. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're getting hit by 4 people in no CP while wearing light divines you will instantly die.

Furthermore, suggesting that "the data is skewed because you're wearing meta sets" doesn't make any sense. I'm wearing meta damage sets, and the part of the class that is broken is the defensive side. Have you tried playing solo wearing full damage on any other class recently? It is extremely difficult to survive any outnumbered scenario without serious investment into defense right now, because of the absurd amount of free damage present from status effects, proc sets, dots, ele susc, etc. If I were to take this build on any other class into the same battleground environment, with many of those classes being ones I have thousands of hours on instead of the one hour I spent on these BG games, I'd have had probably 10+ deaths.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I do agree that Arcanist is tanky, probably the 2nd or third best tank in the game, and I do agree that the shield ultimate needs to be adjusted but I disagree with Imprevious and things being based on HP. It’s really hard to base any opinion on Arcanist when anyone is wearing those broken sets. The same thing happened with Necro and harmony bombing. Everyone complained about necro bombers and then harmony got nerfed but so did the self-synergy grave robber and now the ability is trash. All because some didn’t understand that it was harmony that made that so great, not necro. Hell, players were also bombing with Templar Nova LoL.

What experience exactly are you basing this claim of it being the "2nd or 3rd best tank in the game" on? I have played 4 classes solo open world this patch. Arcanist, NB, DK, and sorc. I am running 1-3 defensive sets on all 3 of the other classes, and I have thousands of hours of experience on all of them - and surviving on any of those classes compared to my arcanist who is wearing 0 defensive sets is night and day. I can effortlessly face tank people and make infinite mistakes on the arcanist because the classes defenses are so strong. I make one mistake on NB or sorc and I die, and my DK who is wearing thrassians, kynmarchers, trickery, and bloodspawn in 4 pieces of heavy armor isn't even half as tanky as my full damage arcanist.

I just don't know how anybody with actual PVP experience could state that health scaling heals/wards aren't completely broken. Arcanist is the hardest thing to kill because you can run 40k hp with a health scaling ward that makes you effectively have 60k hp, and heals that scale off that health as well. You know what the next hardest thing to kill after any given 40k+ hp arcanist is? A 40k+ hp warden using polar wind, another health scaling heal.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I think there could be more things in the game to combat things based on health builds. Maybe buff oblivion damage a bit, buff Hrothgar set a bit, that new set that gives pen to you when hitting players blocking could be buffed too. Players also sometimes have to learn that it’s okay to have different builds and bars for different situations in PvP.

I disagree. Rather than buffing proc sets and unmitigable free damage, which are things that are exacerbating the current disgusting meta we have, why not address the actual issue which is that max health is too high in PVP and health scaling defenses are too effective?

Brakkish wrote: »

@React
You've shown us that; a highly skilled, high performing player with OP sets, absolutely smoked a lot of "green players."
Could arguably do that with any class.

You say this, but I don't think you have the experience to back it up. Speaking as that player, I would not have gotten these same scoreboards on other classes.

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Health builds have been in the game since the beginning, they aren’t going anywhere and at this point neither are abilities that scale off health. It goes all the way back to Blazing Shield Templars and maybe even before that. When I see a player has over 40k health I just avoid them or let them give me a free blood port to a better fight since I am probably stuck in combat anyway. However, that doesn’t mean that things shouldn’t be added, maybe abilities that hit harder based on health, buff up the Defile debuffs or make Mangle more available. The examples I gave were just a few ideas.

I usually run 3 offensive sets on my PvPer but then again I am weird. I just switched my Necro’s monster set to Nibenay though for that shield, saves my butt when getting pulled by ball groups. So right now they are spinners/plaguebreak/nibenay both weapons being destro but I do have a resto I can switch to for certain situations.

As for what am I basing the opinion on its experience but if you are talking about high health build with offensive sets I don’t do that but I have gone into PvP on my tanks and that’s what I was basing it on. I’d say I found it tougher for people to get me down on my DK and Warden, Necro was also tough but not as much as those and Arcanist. I’ve already said that the shield ultimate does need to be adjusted, that thing is still crazy.

I typically don’t fight tanks, I always tell people to not bother unless they need ultimate or a blood port but people will. That’s the biggest counter to this health based meta, just disengage. It’s weird to me how many players still jump on my necro even after I pop my ultimate that can get me close to 100k health.

Lastly, there is no way you’d go into a low MMR BG and have 10+ deaths if you did that build on another class. Unless you AFK’d. I’ve gone into BGs while wearing training gear, leveling up a different weapon line and needing that juicy XP and not died that many times while MMR was low. LoL.

Billium813

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

OtarTheMad

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

That's easy, for PvP it's very avoidable. Without the help of the immobilize from Abyssal Impact and/or the stun from Colorless you will not get a player to just stand in one spot and let you kill them. They will immediately dodge or streak or whatever away. The shield that comes on that one morph does not do much because while it does help it also only last as long as the ability does. You stun the player somehow with a knockback, knock up in the air, fear, or whatever then that shield is gone and the Arcanist is vulnerable. The uninterruptable part is just that, you really can't go up to an Arcanist and hold block and bash them... but every other stun/CC works fine. Also, after the Arcanist has broken free of that stun Fatecarver is on a cooldown and can't be cast again for like 4 seconds. The 22m range hurts you in PvP because all other range abilities are 28m or more which means all someone has to do is stay away from the Arcanist and the Arcanist can't do crap. All you can do on a keep wall or inner keep roof is heavy or light attack... unless you put other abilities on your bar which takes away from the Arcanist power.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink debuff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Billium813

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

OtarTheMad

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

Fair enough about PvP. I have trouble with stuns too but it’s more about lag and skill delay. If break free worked like it does in PvE then stuns wouldn’t be as big a pain.

The issue with the Templar nerf is it just takes ZOS too long to balance out the class. It’s still hurting along with Necro. I fear the same will happen to Arcanist. They will either nerf it and take years to rediscover/redistribute the balance or they will do what they did to necro which is basically just nerf it then take behind the barn and shoot it.

So that’s why I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way. Sure, ZOS could work on those other abilities so that if Fatecarver is ever nerfed Arcanist isn’t completely screwed but I truly hope it’s never touched.

IZZEFlameLash

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

Fair enough about PvP. I have trouble with stuns too but it’s more about lag and skill delay. If break free worked like it does in PvE then stuns wouldn’t be as big a pain.

The issue with the Templar nerf is it just takes ZOS too long to balance out the class. It’s still hurting along with Necro. I fear the same will happen to Arcanist. They will either nerf it and take years to rediscover/redistribute the balance or they will do what they did to necro which is basically just nerf it then take behind the barn and shoot it.

So that’s why I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way. Sure, ZOS could work on those other abilities so that if Fatecarver is ever nerfed Arcanist isn’t completely screwed but I truly hope it’s never touched.

Easy to play class raise the floor that more people are encouraged enough to engage in more than just base game dungeons at the most. Lately, even random normal DLC dungeons have gone smoothly with Arcanists in the group because of how easy the class is to play. I am glad that Arcanist exists. If it didn't, it'd be another run where I am doing 70-90% DPS and only one doing mechanics because people don't have enough DPS to skip mechanics they know nothing to do about, then boss' 'CC->you dead' mechanic gets me and the group wipes. With Arcs in group, had these happen far less. Less stressful rotation is a godsend.