ZOS plans concerning BALL GROUPS?

cptfrog

Dont people remember ballgroups was a thing before rush of agony?
Ballgroups worked completely fine before rush of agony and will work just fine now after rush of agony got 'nerfed'.
Yes it will no as easy as to press 1 skill and pull 6 people but did you guys ever hear abour streak? Dark Conv? Fear?.
For normal zerg fights not alot will change for us ballgroups but in actual GvG's it is a bit painful since we cant pull reliably anymore, but we'll find a way that works.. we always do.

Deimus

If zos doesn't want to do anything meaningful to remove ball groups then they should make a new campaign.

Just like they did for proc sets make a new campaign that actually incorporates things to negatively affect ball groups instead of relying on sets that have backfired time and time again. Limit HoT stacks to 2 per ability, increase siege damage scaling per players hit, lower armor and decrease damage and healing done by a high percentage 50%+ if 4+ players are stacked on each other.

I bet if they did this that would be the best performing Cyro server and they could increase the pop cap in that instance. You get to maintain the playstyle while giving others the ability of choice like you did for those that don't like proc sets. Let the ball groups and those that enjoy fighting balls go at it in their own campaign.

FlopsyPrince

They haven't done anything about gankers in IC during events. That probably bothers more people than ball groups. No change is likely on ball groups.

Tsuriel

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

They haven't done anything about gankers in IC during events. That probably bothers more people than ball groups. No change is likely on ball groups.

Gankers can be countered in various ways, that's not the case with Ballgroups and as we speak, ballgroups have the tendency to chase individual players, especially newer ones away from PvP, I have friends who unfortunately find Cyrodiil boring due to the presence of ballgroups. It's literally imposssible to pvp properly with these folks exploiting the heal stack and offering no counter towards their purposeless gameplay, to not mention the lag and skill issues they bring with em.

FlopsyPrince

Tsuriel wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

They haven't done anything about gankers in IC during events. That probably bothers more people than ball groups. No change is likely on ball groups.

Gankers can be countered in various ways, that's not the case with Ballgroups and as we speak, ballgroups have the tendency to chase individual players, especially newer ones away from PvP, I have friends who unfortunately find Cyrodiil boring due to the presence of ballgroups. It's literally imposssible to pvp properly with these folks exploiting the heal stack and offering no counter towards their purposeless gameplay, to not mention the lag and skill issues they bring with em.

My point would remain. Maybe it will prove false, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a change.

And I would disagree that gankers can be countered, at least in an easy manner. They may be easy for you, but not for most of us that only dip our toes into PvP.

Desiato

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And I would disagree that gankers can be countered, at least in an easy manner. They may be easy for you, but not for most of us that only dip our toes into PvP.

Those players shouldn't expect any adjustments on their behalf. That's like saying we should have pvp in public dungeons to make them more palatable for those who only occasionally pve.

Players who enjoy pvp and do it regularly should expect ZOS to consider their feedback.

Not that I'm really taking a position here. There's no "off switch" for ball groups. Mechanics would have to be adjusted, and with those adjustments come unforeseen consequences.

I don't think ZOS should target ball groups specifically, but rather the fundamental issues plaguing ESO PVP: poor balance, too much tankiness, too much healing, and too many stalemates. The current ball group issues relate strongly to those factors.

GooGa592

We now know their plan is to make ball groups stronger by giving them scribing abilities to go with their free pull sets and heal stacking.

Tsuriel

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

They haven't done anything about gankers in IC during events. That probably bothers more people than ball groups. No change is likely on ball groups.

Gankers can be countered in various ways, that's not the case with Ballgroups and as we speak, ballgroups have the tendency to chase individual players, especially newer ones away from PvP, I have friends who unfortunately find Cyrodiil boring due to the presence of ballgroups. It's literally imposssible to pvp properly with these folks exploiting the heal stack and offering no counter towards their purposeless gameplay, to not mention the lag and skill issues they bring with em.

My point would remain. Maybe it will prove false, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a change.

And I would disagree that gankers can be countered, at least in an easy manner. They may be easy for you, but not for most of us that only dip our toes into PvP.

Gankers can be countered and dealt with appropiate measures, that's not the case with ballgroups. Unlike gankers, ballgroups literally kill PvP when they emerge around the evening in the campaign I'm in. With something that has no means of being countered with the available mechanics is not encouraging at all. As said, several folks I PvP with leave once ballgroups appear, because there's really no reason to stick around something that can't even be properly countered, unlike gankers whom you can deal with in numerous ways, especially nightblades who rely on stealth to deal max damage.

TechMaybeHic

cptfrog wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

They haven't done anything about gankers in IC during events. That probably bothers more people than ball groups. No change is likely on ball groups.

Gankers can be countered in various ways, that's not the case with Ballgroups and as we speak, ballgroups have the tendency to chase individual players, especially newer ones away from PvP, I have friends who unfortunately find Cyrodiil boring due to the presence of ballgroups. It's literally imposssible to pvp properly with these folks exploiting the heal stack and offering no counter towards their purposeless gameplay, to not mention the lag and skill issues they bring with em.

My point would remain. Maybe it will prove false, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a change.

And I would disagree that gankers can be countered, at least in an easy manner. They may be easy for you, but not for most of us that only dip our toes into PvP.

Gankers can be countered and dealt with appropiate measures, that's not the case with ballgroups. Unlike gankers, ballgroups literally kill PvP when they emerge around the evening in the campaign I'm in. With something that has no means of being countered with the available mechanics is not encouraging at all. As said, several folks I PvP with leave once ballgroups appear, because there's really no reason to stick around something that can't even be properly countered, unlike gankers whom you can deal with in numerous ways, especially nightblades who rely on stealth to deal max damage.

[snip]

Not sure what this weird obsession is of making it seem like this is about just being in a group. It's not. There are other types of groups out there. It's about stacking together in a pile, spamming HOTs and high health and timing ulti dumps to be able to kill things whike being turtked up beyondeven siege damage, which has been aided by the mass pull sets because a lot of the ball groups were just bad when they actually had to time it and coordinate tge damage.

Not to mention, countering a NB can be done just by learning how with any class. Not by running a NB yourself or massively outnumbering. People would flip if that was the case. For ball groups, you either have to play the same, or even the people who claim to counter them otherwise, do it while the ball group is engaged in farming the zerg.

And it has caused people to just log, and leave. Same way they would if their only answer was to just play a NB. You tell them the only way to play is to form a ball group of their own, and if they don't want to do that, what's their other choice? Should be balanced the same way individuals are.

Anyway; I don't think ZOS has any plans to address it. Maybe we get lucky, and having one of the pull sets nerfed makes it at least better by not chain pulling you into a mass of potential vicious death procs.

[edited to remove quote]

reazea

The fix is to limit HoT's to only one instance of each hot to a player at any given time. This has been discussed many times before and ZOS refuses to listen. Limiting the number of HoT's would almost certainly reduce lag and server load as well as balancing ball groups. The problem is the HoT stacking is WAY too strong. It seems like an easy fix that ZOS refuses to implement for some reason.

Four_Fingers

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Tsuriel

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

biminirwb17_ESO

I don’t mind ballgroups, I mind the ballgroups that pvdoor a keep with no intention of taking it, then wait for it to unflag and kill people at the spawn point who have no way of reacting.

They must be getting 4ap per kill so it’s not about farming ap, it pure griefing.

If the pvp community accepts this as the standard they accept, then they have to accept they are killing what they say they like.

Its like buying a pump action shotgun to go duck hunting - then wondering why there are no more ducks.

cptfrog

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

cptfrog wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

They haven't done anything about gankers in IC during events. That probably bothers more people than ball groups. No change is likely on ball groups.

Gankers can be countered in various ways, that's not the case with Ballgroups and as we speak, ballgroups have the tendency to chase individual players, especially newer ones away from PvP, I have friends who unfortunately find Cyrodiil boring due to the presence of ballgroups. It's literally imposssible to pvp properly with these folks exploiting the heal stack and offering no counter towards their purposeless gameplay, to not mention the lag and skill issues they bring with em.

My point would remain. Maybe it will prove false, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a change.

And I would disagree that gankers can be countered, at least in an easy manner. They may be easy for you, but not for most of us that only dip our toes into PvP.

Gankers can be countered and dealt with appropiate measures, that's not the case with ballgroups. Unlike gankers, ballgroups literally kill PvP when they emerge around the evening in the campaign I'm in. With something that has no means of being countered with the available mechanics is not encouraging at all. As said, several folks I PvP with leave once ballgroups appear, because there's really no reason to stick around something that can't even be properly countered, unlike gankers whom you can deal with in numerous ways, especially nightblades who rely on stealth to deal max damage.

[snip]

Not sure what this weird obsession is of making it seem like this is about just being in a group. It's not. There are other types of groups out there. It's about stacking together in a pile, spamming HOTs and high health and timing ulti dumps to be able to kill things whike being turtked up beyondeven siege damage, which has been aided by the mass pull sets because a lot of the ball groups were just bad when they actually had to time it and coordinate tge damage.

Not to mention, countering a NB can be done just by learning how with any class. Not by running a NB yourself or massively outnumbering. People would flip if that was the case. For ball groups, you either have to play the same, or even the people who claim to counter them otherwise, do it while the ball group is engaged in farming the zerg.

And it has caused people to just log, and leave. Same way they would if their only answer was to just play a NB. You tell them the only way to play is to form a ball group of their own, and if they don't want to do that, what's their other choice? Should be balanced the same way individuals are.

Anyway; I don't think ZOS has any plans to address it. Maybe we get lucky, and having one of the pull sets nerfed makes it at least better by not chain pulling you into a mass of potential vicious death procs.

[edited to remove quote]

I mean people complain on ballgroups being something bad which i have a hard time understanding why.
If i look from the perspective of someone being more casual and doesnt have BIS gear slotted and such i understand they think all ballgroups is ''unkillable and destroying the game''.
Tho if you take a step back and look what people are saying is ''This group is min/maxing way to much and playing the game to its full potential''. I'm not even argueing that HoT stacking is OP, but why wouldnt we/others use it if its possible? Its a game mechanic.
To me this whole thing is like i would compare someone going in vSS for the first time ever with 'bad' gear and 'bad skillsetup to someone completing Godslayer 50 times already, its a huge difference.

I do also agree that the pull sets just made ballgroups lives alot easier then it used to be but the groups was still a thing before all the pull sets. We just adapt. It was same with harmony that was very broken, was more or less pick 1 synergy and everything died, but now harmony is 'uselss' but the groups didnt stop running bcuz of it.

Also ZOS basically removed the whole function of being able to Purge in cyrodiil after the introduction of Plaguebreak and ballgroups is still a thing, imagine if we could still Purge then i could probable argue we would actually be unkillable xD but yeah..

Four_Fingers

Tsuriel wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

No twist at all it is exactly what the complaint is, solos can't easily take down groups and that is the way it was intended to be.

Stridig

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

No twist at all it is exactly what the complaint is, solos can't easily take down groups and that is the way it was intended to be.

I'm trying to find somewhere in this thread that says solos should be able to take down a group. Maybe you can quote that so it's easy to see.

Sporigudinai

I think the only problem concerning ball groups is the lag. But it´s not they problem to solve, it´s ZOS problem.

In every PvP game, should be difficult for a solo player or a desorganized group to win against a organized one.

Kartalin

Stridig wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

No twist at all it is exactly what the complaint is, solos can't easily take down groups and that is the way it was intended to be.

I'm trying to find somewhere in this thread that says solos should be able to take down a group. Maybe you can quote that so it's easy to see.

While it is not explicitly stated this is the complaint the we easily read behind the lines: why can't a collection of solo players and grouped players in non-complementary gear that are not working in conjunction with each other be able to take down a group this is doing each of those things.

The answer is they can, but only if they have enough (varies depending on the group they're fighting) and if there's a handful mixed in that actually know what they're doing. This is where solo bombers and small group bombs can be really helpful for a faction, although they are usually nowhere to be found near these types of fights. At the same time, please respect the ball groups out there actually looking to fight similar groups -- they do exist, and sometimes they'll go to root out these other groups that are just farming.

I do agree that being able to survive against more than 2-3 times their numbers is something that should be addressed because it is not healthy for the game overall, so that's a direction that ZOS should put some effort in, such as addressing HOT stacking. But we also know they're going to be careful about this because they do not want to negatively affect their end game pve players -- the trials folks that are using a lot of the same support sets that ball groups use. Imagine if ZOS cared enough about Ravenwatch to completely define what could and could not be used there IN GAME, a campaign where the only advantage ball groups have is coordination -- no pull sets, no buff sets, no vd or plague. Unfortunately it is also a campaign that dies once populations become imbalanced due the advantage of (overwhelming) numbers.

Stridig

Kartalin wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

No twist at all it is exactly what the complaint is, solos can't easily take down groups and that is the way it was intended to be.

I'm trying to find somewhere in this thread that says solos should be able to take down a group. Maybe you can quote that so it's easy to see.

While it is not explicitly stated this is the complaint the we easily read behind the lines: why can't a collection of solo players and grouped players in non-complementary gear that are not working in conjunction with each other be able to take down a group this is doing each of those things.

The answer is they can, but only if they have enough (varies depending on the group they're fighting) and if there's a handful mixed in that actually know what they're doing. This is where solo bombers and small group bombs can be really helpful for a faction, although they are usually nowhere to be found near these types of fights. At the same time, please respect the ball groups out there actually looking to fight similar groups -- they do exist, and sometimes they'll go to root out these other groups that are just farming.

I do agree that being able to survive against more than 2-3 times their numbers is something that should be addressed because it is not healthy for the game overall, so that's a direction that ZOS should put some effort in, such as addressing HOT stacking. But we also know they're going to be careful about this because they do not want to negatively affect their end game pve players -- the trials folks that are using a lot of the same support sets that ball groups use. Imagine if ZOS cared enough about Ravenwatch to completely define what could and could not be used there IN GAME, a campaign where the only advantage ball groups have is coordination -- no pull sets, no buff sets, no vd or plague. Unfortunately it is also a campaign that dies once populations become imbalanced due the advantage of (overwhelming) numbers.

I hear you. And I know some groups try to find similar groups to fight. But that is less common than what the original post in this thread is talking about. The original complaint centers around the toxic behavior of farming people with no intent on actually capturing the unflagged keep. To some extent its on the pugs who repeatedly get farmed, but the behavior of SOME of these ball groups is very poor. Also, anyone who thinks solos or random groups can beat highly optimized groups are either salty by nature or simply don't PvP on a regular basis.

Desiato

Stridig wrote: »

To some extent its on the pugs who repeatedly get farmed, but the behavior of SOME of these ball groups is very poor. Also, anyone who thinks solos or random groups can beat highly optimized groups are either salty by nature or simply don't PvP on a regular basis.

Those players actually deserve the most respect for taking on the challenge against an organized group of players with optimized builds, doing their best to help their team hold on to an objective.

In my experience, they're not clueless about the scenario they face, they just, rightfully, don't care if they die.

On the other hand, the 12 man that coordinates with builds they had to theorycraft and farm for, to spend their time doing that for so little.... It's not like they're see a lot of AP killing the same players over and over again. They don't care about the map. So what are they actually getting out of it? I think it's just feeding a deficiency.

Stridig

Desiato wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

To some extent its on the pugs who repeatedly get farmed, but the behavior of SOME of these ball groups is very poor. Also, anyone who thinks solos or random groups can beat highly optimized groups are either salty by nature or simply don't PvP on a regular basis.

Those players actually deserve the most respect for taking on the challenge against an organized group of players with optimized builds, doing their best to help their team hold on to an objective.

In my experience, they're not clueless about the scenario they face, they just, rightfully, don't care if they die.

On the other hand, the 12 man that coordinates with builds they had to theorycraft and farm for, to spend their time doing that for so little.... It's not like they're see a lot of AP killing the same players over and over again. They don't care about the map. So what are they actually getting out of it? I think it's just feeding a deficiency.

Right. Sorry. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. I was referring to pugs that complain about getting repeatedly killed by these groups.

Desiato

Stridig wrote: »

Right. Sorry. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. I was referring to pugs that complain about getting repeatedly killed by these groups.

I don't blame them for that either because it's so boring.

Sometimes I'm one of the stubborn randoms that wants to deprive the ball group of the otick. I don't bother sacrificing myself to them unless I think there's a real chance to kill them, but I'm ready with a supply of oils to help keep them off flags.

If you're trying to stay in the spirit of the game and care about the map letting groups have your inner keeps whenever they want them is an invitation to be gated and lose scrolls.

Personally, I don't complain because I own my decision to be there, but I can understand the frustration and I think this is a huge factor why players quit even though they really like the game mode. If they don't quit, some players just log off when the pop is winding down and the late night ball groups log on for their night of lulz. It really is toxic to the health of the game.

IMO, most players seem to enjoy large scale fights comprising players with mostly single target builds. It's difficult to fathom why ZOS continues to make the design decisions they do. The vast majority of players don't like things like ball groups and troll tanks and every year they get more annoying and become easier to do.

TechMaybeHic

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

No twist at all it is exactly what the complaint is, solos can't easily take down groups and that is the way it was intended to be.

Absolutely is a twist. It's other groups as well that do organize, but stop short of building to only be a piece of the group just stacking tight, high health, and stacking HOTs.

And there's nothing wrong with building for a group role like that; there's just too much power in it.

I don't dare say "nobody is arguing for solo and pugs expect even results for even numbers" as I thing people do argue for that and that's lead to a lot more strength in faction stacks that used to be easier to deal with; but I will say the effectiveness of high health, stacked HOTs, and stacked damage is too heavily advantaged. Probably a combination needs done in general to everyone for how much damage and healing they can have with high health over offense stats as well as HOT stacking.

Four_Fingers

The thing is the things that empower what you all keep calling ball groups is available to all if they just chose to use them.
And yes, some things require grouping and planning to take advantage of not to mention a crown with his/her head screwed on right.
The other advantage guild based groups have is they know each other and have purposely tweaked their builds to complement each other in the group.

FlopsyPrince

Stridig wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Tsuriel wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Of course you have to make another group to counter a group.
You think you should be able to take down groups solo?
Get real this is not Rambo simulator either.

Don't try to twist it, you know we're talking about the specific type of ballgroups here.

No twist at all it is exactly what the complaint is, solos can't easily take down groups and that is the way it was intended to be.

I'm trying to find somewhere in this thread that says solos should be able to take down a group. Maybe you can quote that so it's easy to see.

While it is not explicitly stated this is the complaint the we easily read behind the lines: why can't a collection of solo players and grouped players in non-complementary gear that are not working in conjunction with each other be able to take down a group this is doing each of those things.

The answer is they can, but only if they have enough (varies depending on the group they're fighting) and if there's a handful mixed in that actually know what they're doing. This is where solo bombers and small group bombs can be really helpful for a faction, although they are usually nowhere to be found near these types of fights. At the same time, please respect the ball groups out there actually looking to fight similar groups -- they do exist, and sometimes they'll go to root out these other groups that are just farming.

I do agree that being able to survive against more than 2-3 times their numbers is something that should be addressed because it is not healthy for the game overall, so that's a direction that ZOS should put some effort in, such as addressing HOT stacking. But we also know they're going to be careful about this because they do not want to negatively affect their end game pve players -- the trials folks that are using a lot of the same support sets that ball groups use. Imagine if ZOS cared enough about Ravenwatch to completely define what could and could not be used there IN GAME, a campaign where the only advantage ball groups have is coordination -- no pull sets, no buff sets, no vd or plague. Unfortunately it is also a campaign that dies once populations become imbalanced due the advantage of (overwhelming) numbers.

I hear you. And I know some groups try to find similar groups to fight. But that is less common than what the original post in this thread is talking about. The original complaint centers around the toxic behavior of farming people with no intent on actually capturing the unflagged keep. To some extent its on the pugs who repeatedly get farmed, but the behavior of SOME of these ball groups is very poor. Also, anyone who thinks solos or random groups can beat highly optimized groups are either salty by nature or simply don't PvP on a regular basis.

They have to adjust the rewards for doing this.

Some groups will still focus on reducing the fun for others, but many do it for the rewards and adjusting those would help the motivation problem.

Tsuriel

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The thing is the things that empower what you all keep calling ball groups is available to all if they just chose to use them.
And yes, some things require grouping and planning to take advantage of not to mention a crown with his/her head screwed on right.
The other advantage guild based groups have is they know each other and have purposely tweaked their builds to complement each other in the group.

You keep dismissing statements and facts mentioned in this thread, repeatedly proving what the majority of pro-ballgroup folks do with that repeated cherry picking.

TheValar85

i dont care i am gonna say it should be a bannable offence, and every campain should be acocunt wide faction locked period.

Iriidius

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The thing is the things that empower what you all keep calling ball groups is available to all if they just chose to use them.
And yes, some things require grouping and planning to take advantage of not to mention a crown with his/her head screwed on right.
The other advantage guild based groups have is they know each other and have purposely tweaked their builds to complement each other in the group.

The things that empower ballgroups are not really available for everyone, they are useable solo about as much as ring of pale order in a ballgroup. Sure everyone including solo players can slot echoing vigor, radiating regen, rallying cry, olorhime/spc, powerful assault, phoenix moth, sanctuary, purge and other groupbuffs and some of them are as strong as solobuffs and used by soloplayers, but they wont get the same strength increase/effect (stats, healing/shielding) as a ballgroup, while everyone can slot solosets and get the same effect.
A group player using using resolving vigor gets the same (number of instances of) healing from it than a solo player, but using echoing vigor he not only gets healing from its own instance but also gives it to multiple other players and gets instances of echoing vigor from these players resulting in 6 players together having 36 (times as many) instances (as a solo player) of echoing vigor and 12 players having 144 (times as many) instances (as a solo player), 6/12 on each one.
A thing is not really (available as) the same thing if you only get a faction of what someone else gets .
Imagine you buy drinks, pay 1 bottle and get 1 bottle, while the 12 man group beneath you gets 144 bottles for the price of 12, everyone pays 1 bottle and gets 12 bottles for himself and each of his friend under the condition that he shares, it is available for you because you ask for the same and pay for the same althought you get much less.
So to use these things you have to be in a group which means they are not available for all because groups are not available for all and using them is not a choice.

Four_Fingers

Yes, to fight a group you need to group up, that is what is intended by the devs and what I have been saying all along.
Groups are available for all so I don't accept that.
So now that we have gone full circle the answer to this thread is that ZOS plans for Ball groups is to continue to buff group sets and abilities for groups as that is how a zone for group play is intended to be played.

Iriidius

My argument in last comment that you seemingly replied to was not that you need a group to fight a ballgroup but that you need a group even to utilize the tools that ballgroups use. Nobody expects to 1vX a ballgroup, but when ballgroups eat dmg that would have killed a solo player multiple times and if you land perfect bomb with glasscanon build on a ballgroup that is already fighting a zerg and has multiple coldfire on them and nobody dies and they are already at full health again when a second bomber hits them 2 seconds later it gets really ridiculous.
And groups are not available to all, good luck trying to find a group on some factions/campaigns like Blackreach PC EU EP. If you type lfg in zonechat, you won‘t receive an answer, there are also not enaugh other players typing lfg to build your own PuG group and if you ask players to invite you in their Smallscale or Guildraid they will usually deny. And this is only to find any group at all, if you want play as ballgroup you have to join ballgroup guild, get farm a build given to you by the leader that often requires dlc dungeon/trial sets and often isn’t accepted in any other ballgroup and play regular during raidtime and outside of raidtime still don‘t have a group and get farmed by other groups. Having to play almost every raid excludes players with irregular schedule and players that not play regular at all, for example I am often short term prevented from joining a ballgroup raid and therefore cant play in a ballgroup.
Also my faction doesn‘t have any ballgroups on blackreach so I have to play grey host if i play ballgroup, while other factions have ballzergs.
If as a daily player I cant find groups it must be even worse for players that rarely PvP.