Ranged vs Melee Magblade. Does range even exist?

FoJul

Can Nightblades Swallow soul receive any kind of attention? I've been through so many PTS cycles and not once was swallow soul messed with. I understand it's a spammable that has a healing factor, but after its hit with the halved healing through battle spirit, its not enough healing to justify why the skill doesn't have any damage. I would love to play a Ranged Magblade in PvP and PvE again. It's by far my favorite playstyle, but insanely hard to make work.

At this moment, the only way I can make it hit over 4k is in Mechanical Acuity. That's only for 5 seconds with a 20 second downtime. I can't make swallow soul work in PvE either. I can already see people saying "you want another Nightblade buff" . Yes, I do. I would like the ranged aspect at least to be able to compete with other ranged classes like Sorcerer and Templar. I get that merciless resolve is out of control, but that's not enough to debate on Ranged Magblades and why they are so bad compared to other options. Ranged Magblades have the most useless ranged stun , and the ranged execute is far worse than the melee one. Like 2 patches ago, fear traps were nerfed and no one complained about it. Because no one uses it. Last but not least, most people didn't even notice it.

A few suggestions would be, adding some sort of unique status effect to Swallow Soul. Increasing the Tooltip numbers while lowering the healing (again). You could make it bleed damage. You could make the healing only apply to the other morph. So one for damage and one for healing. Fixing Fear radius or Fear traps. Removing the stand still mechanic on dark cloak, but increasing the healing still.

**** Please stop buffing melee blades. They are already stronger than almost every class. They need no more melee buffs. Please just fix some of the range aspects. For instance, why does the heal from merciless resolve only happen in melee range. There's countless melee advantages over Ranged.****
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
How many PTS cycles is it going to take to realize on the stat sheet that Swallow Soul isn't getting used. It needs something. Anything at all to help. Ranged Magblade used to be extremely popular; now you will see 1 ranged magblade to every 45 melee Hybrid/Magicka Melee blade. I know for a fact I'm not the only one who knows that Swallow soul is getting out performed by almost every spammable in the game.

Another thing is the dark cloak change where you have to stand still to get the entire abilities benefits is underwhelming. Yeah it might be strong in duels, but that's it. That makes me have to stand still and face tank DPS in PvP, or stand still in massive damage AoE in PvE. Why is there a limiter on my healing ability? Ranged templar has a ranged stun, a ranged execute (that's not clunky and delayed) and they have 2 HoTs' that are double Dark Cloaks healing. And I have to stand completely still to do even a fraction of self heals templar has. I'm not complaining about Templar, I'm comparing 2 ranged playstyles and 1 of which doesn't even feel like it's a real playstyle.

Concealed weapon for some reason is getting all this attention. Getting buffs and reworks for melee blades to be able to compete. Then fixed Surprise attack cause to many people using Concealed over Surprise attack. ( https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/639302/pts-patch-notes-v9-1-2#latest ) Scroll down To combat<Nightblades<Veiled Strike<Developer Comment. How can you see that people use concealed over Surprise Attack for the passive, and not see Swallow soul not being used. Everyone has a Nightblade on their account. Everyone is using concealed on one of the bars. EVEN ON RANGE TOONS.

I have to explain to some people what Swallow soul is when I'm sharing a build with them. They always say "You're going to have to use Force pulse or elemental weapon. It has been like this for years now. Since summerset or even longer.

I hate having to put on items that carry my damage, because my spammable doesn't have the damage it needs to be decent. No I don't want to use Elemental weapon, and no I don't want to use force pulse. They have ripped all the identity from Ranged Magblade, and seem like they have no plans of giving it attention. Aye but at least I have Merciless Resolve right? Right...
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's some links from past forums with various conversations around this topic. Yes, some of these are old, because it has gone untouched all this time.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477254/melee-vs-ranged-magblade
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/402442/range-dps-mag-sorc-magblade-change-my-mind
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611579/another-massive-magblade-nerf

Here's one of my posts earlier in this Cycle. Feel free to see the other peoples thoughts
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638190/is-ranged-magblade-just-forgotten-im-genuinely-confused#latest

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

Swallow souls candence does feel off. It should be more fluid.
Runeblade and Destro spammables feel more smooth to weave with.

emilyhyoyeon

The heal component of it is really important to its power fantasy for me personally

boi_anachronism_

Dekrypted wrote: »

As pesky as nightblades can be, a ramping cost increase to stealth (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638298/ramping-cost-for-nightblade-cloak/p1) and an actual buff/update to swallow soul would be great.

Take the heal component away allowing the ability to fall under a different standard and give it a secondary effect. Let it apply overcharged every other cast and increase the damage by 5-10% to meet the ever bloated damage standards that other nightblade abilities like concealed weapon fall under.

There was a time when you'd see this kind of archetype among the array of nightblades. Anyone who was known for using it would tell you that they won't touch it again without swallow soul doing enough to keep up. This isn't very "Play how you want" forcing nightblades into using the same 5 sets and the same 12 skills in pvp.

@ZOS_Kevin (honorable mention)

I mean this would literally wreck pretty much all vas2 builds, one of the few trials that nb is still considered A tier so uh its a huge no from me.

Jazraena

Sadly, discussing PvP without the PvE component is barely possible as long as ZOS does not engage in separate balancing.

But, honestly? Ranged Nightblade needs a buff in both.

Weckless

FoJul wrote: »

Can Nightblades Swallow soul receive any kind of attention? I've been through so many PTS cycles and not once was swallow soul messed with. I understand it's a spammable that has a healing factor, but after its hit with the halved healing through battle spirit, its not enough healing to justify why the skill doesn't have any damage. I would love to play a Ranged Magblade in PvP and PvE again. It's by far my favorite playstyle, but insanely hard to make work.

At this moment, the only way I can make it hit over 4k is in Mechanical Acuity. That's only for 5 seconds with a 20 second downtime. I can't make swallow soul work in PvE either. I can already see people saying "you want another Nightblade buff" . Yes, I do. I would like the ranged aspect at least to be able to compete with other ranged classes like Sorcerer and Templar. I get that merciless resolve is out of control, but that's not enough to debate on Ranged Magblades and why they are so bad compared to other options. Ranged Magblades have the most useless ranged stun , and the ranged execute is far worse than the melee one. Like 2 patches ago, fear traps were nerfed and no one complained about it. Because no one uses it. Last but not least, most people didn't even notice it.

A few suggestions would be, adding some sort of unique status effect to Swallow Soul. Increasing the Tooltip numbers while lowering the healing (again). You could make it bleed damage. You could make the healing only apply to the other morph. So one for damage and one for healing. Fixing Fear radius or Fear traps. Removing the stand still mechanic on dark cloak, but increasing the healing still.

**** Please stop buffing melee blades. They are already stronger than almost every class. They need no more melee buffs. Please just fix some of the range aspects. For instance, why does the heal from merciless resolve only happen in melee range. There's countless melee advantages over Ranged.****
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
How many PTS cycles is it going to take to realize on the stat sheet that Swallow Soul isn't getting used. It needs something. Anything at all to help. Ranged Magblade used to be extremely popular; now you will see 1 ranged magblade to every 45 melee Hybrid/Magicka Melee blade. I know for a fact I'm not the only one who knows that Swallow soul is getting out performed by almost every spammable in the game.

Another thing is the dark cloak change where you have to stand still to get the entire abilities benefits is underwhelming. Yeah it might be strong in duels, but that's it. That makes me have to stand still and face tank DPS in PvP, or stand still in massive damage AoE in PvE. Why is there a limiter on my healing ability? Ranged templar has a ranged stun, a ranged execute (that's not clunky and delayed) and they have 2 HoTs' that are double Dark Cloaks healing. And I have to stand completely still to do even a fraction of self heals templar has. I'm not complaining about Templar, I'm comparing 2 ranged playstyles and 1 of which doesn't even feel like it's a real playstyle.

Concealed weapon for some reason is getting all this attention. Getting buffs and reworks for melee blades to be able to compete. Then fixed Surprise attack cause to many people using Concealed over Surprise attack. ( https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/639302/pts-patch-notes-v9-1-2#latest ) Scroll down To combat<Nightblades<Veiled Strike<Developer Comment. How can you see that people use concealed over Surprise Attack for the passive, and not see Swallow soul not being used. Everyone has a Nightblade on their account. Everyone is using concealed on one of the bars. EVEN ON RANGE TOONS.

I have to explain to some people what Swallow soul is when I'm sharing a build with them. They always say "You're going to have to use Force pulse or elemental weapon. It has been like this for years now. Since summerset or even longer.

I hate having to put on items that carry my damage, because my spammable doesn't have the damage it needs to be decent. No I don't want to use Elemental weapon, and no I don't want to use force pulse. They have ripped all the identity from Ranged Magblade, and seem like they have no plans of giving it attention. Aye but at least I have Merciless Resolve right? Right...
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's some links from past forums with various conversations around this topic. Yes, some of these are old, because it has gone untouched all this time.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477254/melee-vs-ranged-magblade
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/402442/range-dps-mag-sorc-magblade-change-my-mind
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611579/another-massive-magblade-nerf

Here's one of my posts earlier in this Cycle. Feel free to see the other peoples thoughts
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638190/is-ranged-magblade-just-forgotten-im-genuinely-confused#latest

I agree. Swallow soul should have its travel time removed imo. It isn't a projectile so it doesn't make sense. You're pulling their soul to you so if anything the healing part should have the travel time not the damage. Also could use a damage buff or guaranteed status effect would be nice. Give grim focus a benefit when using it from outside the range of the heal and make the fear traps arm instantly.

Currently i dont think buffing dark cloak is realistic though due to the strength of our burst heal. If we had swallow soul healing stacked with a buffed dark cloak with offering the way it is now it would be too much healing imo

Bushido2513

Yeah it's so funny to even think about it, one spec of nb is soooo overpowered when using its built in kit and the other is just meh through and through. This situation is just crying for balance!

Zodiarkslayer

Dekrypted wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I mean this would literally wreck pretty much all vas2 builds, one of the few trials that nb is still considered A tier so uh its a huge no from me.

I'd love for zos to add a tag to every forum post to properly display whether someone is talking about pvp or pve.

It's very clear that I'm talking about PvP and you're probably the only person to use that ability in a vAS+2 run given the infestation of heavy attack sorc builds.

Like seriously. Even the OP is talking about PvP man way more than the couple mentions of PvE.

There is a PvP forum, you know. Maybe posting pvp threads there would be better.

And general complaints about combat imbalance belong to combat and character mechanics.

PTS forum is supposedly for feedback on PTS changes...

merpins

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Swallow souls candence does feel off. It should be more fluid.
Runeblade and Destro spammables feel more smooth to weave with.

Swallow Soul used to feel great to use and did great damage. It was nerfed around 2017, and around the same time, its timing was messed with (I'm thinking it was probably unintentional), and since everyone stopped using it due to the nerfs, it kinda went under the radar. I'd love for it to get a good damage buff, and for its timing to be fixed.

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

I'd love for zos to add a tag to every forum post to properly display whether someone is talking about pvp or pve.

It's very clear that I'm talking about PvP and you're probably the only person to use that ability in a vAS+2 run given the infestation of heavy attack sorc builds.

Like seriously. Even the OP is talking about PvP man way more than the couple mentions of PvE.

Well as said already, when you talk about one you're already talking about the other because they aren't balanced separately as they should be.

Secondly and probably more importantly, anything creating a thread is free to put PVP or PVE in the thread title if they really want that distinction.

FoJul

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

As pesky as nightblades can be, a ramping cost increase to stealth (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638298/ramping-cost-for-nightblade-cloak/p1) and an actual buff/update to swallow soul would be great.

Take the heal component away allowing the ability to fall under a different standard and give it a secondary effect. Let it apply overcharged every other cast and increase the damage by 5-10% to meet the ever bloated damage standards that other nightblade abilities like concealed weapon fall under.

There was a time when you'd see this kind of archetype among the array of nightblades. Anyone who was known for using it would tell you that they won't touch it again without swallow soul doing enough to keep up. This isn't very "Play how you want" forcing nightblades into using the same 5 sets and the same 12 skills in pvp.

@ZOS_Kevin (honorable mention)

I mean this would literally wreck pretty much all vas2 builds, one of the few trials that nb is still considered A tier so uh its a huge no from me.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I mean this would literally wreck pretty much all vas2 builds, one of the few trials that nb is still considered A tier so uh its a huge no from me.

I'd love for zos to add a tag to every forum post to properly display whether someone is talking about pvp or pve.

It's very clear that I'm talking about PvP and you're probably the only person to use that ability in a vAS+2 run given the infestation of heavy attack sorc builds.

Like seriously. Even the OP is talking about PvP man way more than the couple mentions of PvE.

There is a PvP forum, you know. Maybe posting pvp threads there would be better.

And general complaints about combat imbalance belong to combat and character mechanics.

PTS forum is supposedly for feedback on PTS changes...

Well, requesting them to play with swallow soul is a PTS matter, as it would have to go through PTS first. On top of that, with the recent changes to concealed, I cant use it passively for ranged anymore.

Also, another point to make is with the changes to inferno staff, I now can't benefit 100% from flame or lightning staves, as the dots and direct damage both were applied to Flame staves. Now they are split which means my damage is going to take another loss.

More damage loss on something that lacks damage equals, even less damage.

Vanionator

I main a NB in pvp and would happily take a nerf to Merciless Resolve to make changes to Swallow Soul. My buddy died to a DB and later a MR. The DB did 500 less damage than the MR. It's a powerful skill, too powerful imo.
I don't even slot Swallow soul anymore, especially in pvp where lag makes the skill more than useless.

DUTCH_REAPER

/waves
Ranged MNB PVP here. My swallow souls hit hard. I honestly don't have an issue except I am a glass cannon, if I get looked at sideways I crumple. But if you are ranged and hitting hard, you should be the ultimate squishy of squishies right? I got footage of my SS hitting anywhere from 4k-7.5k last night in cyro GH NA PC.

DrNukenstein

I wonder why developers might want to keep the class with on demand invisibility incentivized to go into danger to use their kit?

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I wonder why developers might want to keep the class with on demand invisibility incentivized to go into danger to use their kit?

Ranged NB can easily become too strong and I don't think they are ready to properly balance it. I remember before multiple nerfs ranged NB could hit like a truck while having good survivability.

I wouldn't mind seeing a strong ranged NB but it wouldn't need to come with proper downsides and right now ZOS doesn't seem great at creating that kind of balance.

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

/waves
Ranged MNB PVP here. My swallow souls hit hard. I honestly don't have an issue except I am a glass cannon, if I get looked at sideways I crumple. But if you are ranged and hitting hard, you should be the ultimate squishy of squishies right? I got footage of my SS hitting anywhere from 4k-7.5k last night in cyro GH NA PC.

Weird how concealed weapon is hitting for 7-9k right now

To be fair though that's just ranged spamable vs not. I might totally be wrong but I don't believe any ranged spamable hits for that.

Anything ranged that hits for those numbers has a delay.

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

My jabs with acuity hit for like 2k each, so a total of 6k.

To be fair aoe standard vs single target so there should be a diff in damage.

Dekrypted wrote: »

The dmg standards that nightblade has are out of wack. There currently is no incentive to use swallow soul outside of masochism.

This is true being that their built in damage modifiers and buffs have too much synergy.

Dekrypted wrote: »

The devs need to stop being held hostage by gankers and nightblades who don't want to have balance changes to their class despite every other class going through it and simply just either buff everything to the dmg standards of concealed and assassin's will or reallocate the dmg across the other skills. And do it for all classes so my templar isn't sad anymore (honorable plug for my main)

I agree about the damage buffs being needed but I wouldn't assume that the devs are being held hostage by any means lol.

Over the years for some reason NB has been shown favor even before any player bias.

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

I am being a little dramatic when I say the devs are being held hostage, but given the lack of explanation for such bias (and somehow still ignoring portions of their Golden Child class), what else can one say?

I just say devs main nb and now dk but as per the topic of the thread not mag nb it seems lol. Again though, I do recall when mag nb was a beast. I don't recall if swallow soul had the funky delay back then that it has now but I also wish they'd remove that as well.

Dekrypted wrote: »

Also you are at a fair point when it comes to jabs as an aoe standard vs concealed's single target standard, but if I'm supposed to play how I want, why does Dark Flare still suck and Templar have no single target spammable they can use. I think everyone should be just as op as the ever popular Hybrid Blade pvp builds that exist.

I wanna play how I want too.

I mean by that thought though then nb could be like where's my aoe spamable? I mean they do have an aoe skill though it's nowhere near as fluid as jabs thankfully. You can drop a db on a crowd and jab away and you might get up to a few kills lol, nb will be like ok that's one, that's two, etc.

But yeah other classes need to be brought up to nb standards or nb melee power level needs to be somewhat diverted into mag ranged playstyle including buffing/reworking swallow soul.

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I mean by that thought though then nb could be like where's my aoe spamable? I mean they do have an aoe skill though it's nowhere near as fluid as jabs thankfully. You can drop a db on a crowd and jab away and you might get up to a few kills lol, nb will be like ok that's one, that's two, etc.

But yeah other classes need to be brought up to nb standards or nb melee power level needs to be somewhat diverted into mag ranged playstyle including buffing/reworking swallow soul.

You know.... where are the aoe spammables at?

As controversial as the high isle patch was with how powerful oakensoul was, with every class being strong due to the ring and conditions on the skills at the time of that patch, the game was actually fun.

Comparing the recent balance decisions and how PvP is to back then... it really was better when everyone was op.

Well templar gets teh aoe spamable and that's really one of the unique pints of the game which is cool.

So fun depends on who you ask. I mean I get what you're saying about a time when everyone seemed to have power but honestly it depended on what class you played because they were still imbalanced. So if you were good with nb or dk at the time you really excelled whereas a one bar sorc or otherwise was ok but still nothing special compared to those two.

Game just needs balance for everyone, not an underpowered meta and not a die in two second meta. A meta where everyone feels like they have a good chance at a kill and defense at the same time in unique ways.

That being said on the topic of swallow soul it's interesting because if you think about all the other spamables swallow soul is a weird thing because it's not made to be mag or stam like the other spamables, it's either a self heal on damage or a group heal. It's a utility skill. But that being said most of the classes have a way to be effective at range and up close so nb should be no different.

DrNukenstein

Let's also not forget that Melee NB being top of the pack is a relatively new phenomenon. The class kit was so bad before update 35, that we had to be propped up by a proc that hit harder than assassins will and has a condition that only Nightblade's can reliably make use of. Templar of U34 was about where Melee Nightblade is today.

And I will stick to it. It's okay that Ranged NB is weak. What ever gripes people have with melee nightblades become 10fold when they're being an effective nuisance from across the field. If you want to play a marksman, roll sorc. That's what that class is designed for, it's only melee capabilities are off class.

OBJnoob

Not to change the topic but... Maybe to change the direction... Why does swallow soul NEED to be buffed to play a ranged blade? Is there something wrong with force pulse or the Psijic spammable? Or is there something wrong with the rest of NB healing that you just NEED swallow soul?

Don't get me wrong I understand you can do more damage with dual wield than with a staff, but I'm just saying there are options.

Weckless

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

/waves
Ranged MNB PVP here. My swallow souls hit hard. I honestly don't have an issue except I am a glass cannon, if I get looked at sideways I crumple. But if you are ranged and hitting hard, you should be the ultimate squishy of squishies right? I got footage of my SS hitting anywhere from 4k-7.5k last night in cyro GH NA PC.

The swallow soul problem is beyond the damage. Which isn't very good anyways. The senseless travel time is a big part of it. Other ranged spammables like ele weapon have a guaranteed status effect and crushing shock with a charged staff can proc 3 status effects consistently causing them to out damage swallow soul by a lot. And ranged attacks already have lower damage scaling than melee attacks so that is the price for being ranged. The idea you should have to also be squishy as well to be able to still do 1.5-2k less damage is wrong imo. Especially now where brawler builds that can do damage and be tanky while free movement speed and snare removals that pretty much delete the advantage ranged is suppose to have being everywhere just makes that an outdated philosophy. The game has changed but ranged magblade has unfortunately been left behind and forgotten and it really needs to be brought up to today's standards to have a chance at competing with its melee counterpart.

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

Not to change the topic but... Maybe to change the direction... Why does swallow soul NEED to be buffed to play a ranged blade? Is there something wrong with force pulse or the Psijic spammable? Or is there something wrong with the rest of NB healing that you just NEED swallow soul?

Don't get me wrong I understand you can do more damage with dual wield than with a staff, but I'm just saying there are options.

The same reason stam dks got whip, stam sorc got crystal weapon, the same reason plars don't want to use dswing or master dw.

OBJnoob

Weckless wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Not to change the topic but... Maybe to change the direction... Why does swallow soul NEED to be buffed to play a ranged blade? Is there something wrong with force pulse or the Psijic spammable? Or is there something wrong with the rest of NB healing that you just NEED swallow soul?

Don't get me wrong I understand you can do more damage with dual wield than with a staff, but I'm just saying there are options.

The same reason stam dks got whip, stam sorc got crystal weapon, the same reason plars don't want to use dswing or master dw.

I mean you just named two classes that literally didn't have a spammable and then a class who's spammable recently got gutted. And you're comparing it to the class with the best spammable in the game. As a way to demonstrate why they need more options?

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Not to change the topic but... Maybe to change the direction... Why does swallow soul NEED to be buffed to play a ranged blade? Is there something wrong with force pulse or the Psijic spammable? Or is there something wrong with the rest of NB healing that you just NEED swallow soul?

Don't get me wrong I understand you can do more damage with dual wield than with a staff, but I'm just saying there are options.

The same reason stam dks got whip, stam sorc got crystal weapon, the same reason plars don't want to use dswing or master dw.

I mean you just named two classes that literally didn't have a spammable and then a class who's spammable recently got gutted. And you're comparing it to the class with the best spammable in the game. As a way to demonstrate why they need more options?

You're correct however I will say on the flip side all of those do have ranged class spamables that are better than swallow soul. I could see buffing swallow soul just on the basis that generally it doesn't see much play and one is other morph really doesn't see that much play.

OBJnoob

@Bushido2513 Stamsorc's crystal weapon is ranged or melee, yes, but what does MAGsorc have? They have force pulse is what they have, lol. And DK? Are we talking about poop rocks, as DK calls it?

I'm not necessarily against buffing swallow soul but it's going to need to be just a different skill entirely. Because the last thing NB needs is a ranged spammable that heals and does decent damage. Terrible idea. Incidentally the reason why it does bad damage is because it heals. And you could say this is a PvP complaint... But okay, so why does a PvEblade need a spammable that heals either?

Mostly though I just disagree with the popular opinion that every class ability needs to be better than it's weaponline alternative. People seem to think this makes classes more thematic or whatever... Maybe... But it also makes them all the same.

Also, NB has a ranged execute. They have shadow image and shadowy disguise. They have a massive burst tool that can be used at range and stacks off of light attacks. I think it's more than a stretch to say that NB isn't capable of fighting at range. Why? Because they don't want to slot a non-class spammable? I mean, are we comparing rangeblade to other ranged classes or only to meleeblade? Nobody can keep up with meleeblade. Join the club.

Buff the damage on swallow soul and the next thing requested will be "well it needs to put people off balance too, because we're losing out on 10% damage and lack a ranged stun."

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Not to change the topic but... Maybe to change the direction... Why does swallow soul NEED to be buffed to play a ranged blade? Is there something wrong with force pulse or the Psijic spammable? Or is there something wrong with the rest of NB healing that you just NEED swallow soul?

Don't get me wrong I understand you can do more damage with dual wield than with a staff, but I'm just saying there are options.

The same reason stam dks got whip, stam sorc got crystal weapon, the same reason plars don't want to use dswing or master dw.

I mean you just named two classes that literally didn't have a spammable and then a class who's spammable recently got gutted. And you're comparing it to the class with the best spammable in the game. As a way to demonstrate why they need more options?

As a way for a playstyle that already exists to be able to be decent again. I'm all for plar getting jabs buffed i don't see how any of that is relevant tbh. What's wrong with options. There's classes that are able to play as range and melee so why is asking for that such an issue for you? I don't understand why you're so against a playstyle many people like being brought back up again it's kind of weird tbh. I'm not advocating for it at the expense of anything else so it really shouldnt matter to you. It would still be weaker than melee so what's your deal?

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Bushido2513 Stamsorc's crystal weapon is ranged or melee, yes, but what does MAGsorc have? They have force pulse is what they have, lol. And DK? Are we talking about poop rocks, as DK calls it?

I'm not necessarily against buffing swallow soul but it's going to need to be just a different skill entirely. Because the last thing NB needs is a ranged spammable that heals and does decent damage. Terrible idea. Incidentally the reason why it does bad damage is because it heals. And you could say this is a PvP complaint... But okay, so why does a PvEblade need a spammable that heals either?

Mostly though I just disagree with the popular opinion that every class ability needs to be better than it's weaponline alternative. People seem to think this makes classes more thematic or whatever... Maybe... But it also makes them all the same.

Also, NB has a ranged execute. They have shadow image and shadowy disguise. They have a massive burst tool that can be used at range and stacks off of light attacks. I think it's more than a stretch to say that NB isn't capable of fighting at range. Why? Because they don't want to slot a non-class spammable? I mean, are we comparing rangeblade to other ranged classes or only to meleeblade? Nobody can keep up with meleeblade. Join the club.

Buff the damage on swallow soul and the next thing requested will be "well it needs to put people off balance too, because we're losing out on 10% damage and lack a ranged stun."

Nobody is saying any of that. I literally suggested giving it a status effect and removing the travel time. That would not make it op by any means. And sorc can make force pulse work because they have frags to supplement it with and sorcs do status effect/pressure builds better. They nerfed nbs ability to do pressure builds for a reason because they pair with incap to well and nobody wants the bleed blade to come back. And like i said i don't care if those other classes get buffs. This "what about meee" *** is aggravating. If you have a change you'd like then say something. Our change doesn't stop you from trying to get yours

OBJnoob

@weckless Well I'm sorry you find my opinion weird but I don't have a "deal." I'm just participating in a discussion not running for president. NB is way too strong right now it's just poor timing to be finding ways to make the rest of their kit awesome too.

If anybody wants rangeblade to be better then they can start by nerfing meleeblade. This isn't a vendetta... I don't really care on a personal level, but that's my take on balance.

You say you wish it gave a status effect and had a very minimal travel time? LOL. So you don't like the idea of force pulse but NB pulse is what you want. Mmk got it.

Also, as far as changes I may want as recompense for this one... You'll notice I never make threads asking for changes. Cuz the goal of a game for me is to become good at what the game IS. Not beg for changes until my crappy character becomes good.

Balance ebbs and flows. Everyone should have plenty of characters to switch between. Should rangeblade one day be a thing? Sure. But not today. Why? Because NB is too dominant already. If this opinion confuses you then you're just confused and I can't help you.

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

Balance ebbs and flows. Everyone should have plenty of characters to switch between. Should rangeblade one day be a thing? Sure. But not today. Why? Because NB is too dominant already. If this opinion confuses you then you're just confused and I can't help you.

@OBJnoob To be fair, I'm pretty sure if you said to this person we're nerfing melee blade to make range blade a thing they wouldn't care.

Everyone knows nb is op so I don't see anyone asking for buffs on top of buffs and this person didn't say they were against transferring power to make SS good.

Also to your point about the other skills listed, I believe the point was that these skills were at least tweaked to make them a bit more useable even if it didn't always work out well. SS hasn't been tweaked in a while

Also it is never a bad time to try to make any kit awesome including DK and NB. Why do I say this? Because ZOS has proven that they don't care how much we don't like something, they will just buff it on top of buffs. So everyone might as well just play along and ask for buffs even if they seem ill timed or just ludicrous because you know what, you just might get them lol.

I don't really care one way or the other if SS is buffed but I'm saying I have no problem seeing the reasoning of someone wanting this. I do think it would make a lot more sense if they pulled power from somewhere else in the kit to make this happen if it did happen.

OBJnoob

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also to your point about the other skills listed, I believe the point was that these skills were at least tweaked to make them a bit more useable even if it didn't always work out well. SS hasn't been tweaked in a while.

Not sure what you mean. You mean the bit about crystal, whip, and jabs? If so, then I gotta stick to my guns. And again this isn't like a trigger for me I respect the fact that OP wants what they want. I just don't think those examples were very good.

Crystal Weapon is a great skill and I use it from range on my stamsorc. But it was absolutely worth mentioning that when crystal weapon was introduced stamsorc had NOTHING. And even now magsorc, unless they run crystal, has NOTHING. And that is not where NB is.

And Whip isn't even a spammable. Like it is but it isn't, ya know? You can spam it if you're in corrosive or whatever but what most DKs spam is FoO. And that only works as a spammable because of how busted DK is right now. I would be against giving DK a ranged spammable just like I'm against giving NB a ranged spammable. In fact I'm already against FoO acting as a ranged spammable. The real stamDK spammable is poop rocks (as DKs call it.) So again... Not sure this was a great example.

And I'm not even sure why Jabs got brought up exactly because that was obviously nerfed and templars are still VERY upset about it lol.

So what DKs have is an arguably weak AoE spammable (FoO,) that works for them because it builds stacks for Whip which is their other spammable but it only does good damage after building some stacks.

Half of sorcs have a spammable at all the other half arguably don't.

Templars spammable is AoE like FoO, recently got nerfed to do less damage accordingly, and their single target one has a cast time so they don't like it.

Necros don't like their spammable.

Wardens don't like their spammable.

So, y'know, I DO see the problem with swallow soul. But NBs aren't alone in this, and as a matter of fact at least they do HAVE a spammable. It's probably the best spammable in the game. By a mile.

I can see why some people might be of the opinion that "well, there's no harm in asking." Sure, that's valid, ask away. But the fact that this may be reasonable doesn't necessarily mean that differing opinions aren't reasonable too. We just have to reasonably disagree. Which I'm fine doing.

I think people know I'm down for a scrappy argument and they also know I check the forums a lot and I'm responsive. I accidently become the focus of defending certain things... They aren't all hot button issues for me. Sometimes I'm just casting my vote, ya know? I don't see why changing my mind is so important to some people. It isn't as though my opinion is actually holding anyone back from getting what they want.