Ranged vs Melee Magblade. Does range even exist?

Bushido2513

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Yeah, me personally I just uninstalled like the many other vets that are tired of the same old same old just on a different day. Zos will do what Zos will do. That's correct. So in the near future they'll probably just buff nightblades again.

I'm tired of chasing the Dragon when it comes to rangeblade. I just simply want it to work. Like it did many millinia ago.




Meme creds to @Dekrypted

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

Really they could just reverse hybridization. Hybridization made the game unbalanced to fast. Seems like they don't have the dev power to get it back in line.

Before hybridization, No nightblade was hitting 20k bows. Nightblade wasn't even strong.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

Really they could just reverse hybridization. Hybridization made the game unbalanced to fast. Seems like they don't have the dev power to get it back in line.

Before hybridization, No nightblade was hitting 20k bows. Nightblade wasn't even strong.

Yeah hybrid was suppose to give more choices and revitalize the game. In giving more choices it ended up making only a few builds worth running.

Also it wasn't just hybrid but also I'm sure part of those bows are from sets that are more recent as they tried to create chase sets to keep people playing.

I mean there's a lot of places to point fingers unfortunately.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

Really they could just reverse hybridization. Hybridization made the game unbalanced to fast. Seems like they don't have the dev power to get it back in line.

Before hybridization, No nightblade was hitting 20k bows. Nightblade wasn't even strong.

Yeah hybrid was suppose to give more choices and revitalize the game. In giving more choices it ended up making only a few builds worth running.

Also it wasn't just hybrid but also I'm sure part of those bows are from sets that are more recent as they tried to create chase sets to keep people playing.

I mean there's a lot of places to point fingers unfortunately.

I wouldn't go as far as saying new sets have played a part into building 20k+ merciless resolves. You can hit 20k bows with Nightmother's gaze and essence thief which have been in the game for well over 6 years. I blame hybridization 100%. niether one of those sets I mentioned give you any 1 specfic stat. Hyrbid blade is relying on Khajit passives/CP/and dual wield axes for its damage. That has nothing to do with new sets.

Nightblades can get 35% Weapon Crit from skills alone in a fight. so you add a line of crit chance maybe a precise trait or something and your sitting at 50%+ crit chance.

Before Hybridization, that Merciless resolve (Which is magick damage) scaled off of max magicka/spell damage/ and spell crit. Now it scales off of whatever's highest. Nightblade doesn't get free spell critical. So that Merciless resolve never recieved all of that free damage scaling. Before hybridization the stamina morph of merciless resolve has a lower tooltip, which is why you never saw stamblades hitting 20k bows either. But because of hybridization, Stamblades switched to merciless resolve because it naturally hits harder. Since you don't have to worry about changing your stam build to still hit hard.

Over time, they realized that "hey I'm a stamblade, let me use all of my stamina for fighting and use this mag im not using for spamming heals." Which is how we ended up with 1 playstyle fits all.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

Really they could just reverse hybridization. Hybridization made the game unbalanced to fast. Seems like they don't have the dev power to get it back in line.

Before hybridization, No nightblade was hitting 20k bows. Nightblade wasn't even strong.

Yeah hybrid was suppose to give more choices and revitalize the game. In giving more choices it ended up making only a few builds worth running.

Also it wasn't just hybrid but also I'm sure part of those bows are from sets that are more recent as they tried to create chase sets to keep people playing.

I mean there's a lot of places to point fingers unfortunately.

I wouldn't go as far as saying new sets have played a part into building 20k+ merciless resolves. You can hit 20k bows with Nightmother's gaze and essence thief which have been in the game for well over 6 years. I blame hybridization 100%. niether one of those sets I mentioned give you any 1 specfic stat. Hyrbid blade is relying on Khajit passives/CP/and dual wield axes for its damage. That has nothing to do with new sets.

Nightblades can get 35% Weapon Crit from skills alone in a fight. so you add a line of crit chance maybe a precise trait or something and your sitting at 50%+ crit chance.

Before Hybridization, that Merciless resolve (Which is magick damage) scaled off of max magicka/spell damage/ and spell crit. Now it scales off of whatever's highest. Nightblade doesn't get free spell critical. So that Merciless resolve never recieved all of that free damage scaling. Before hybridization the stamina morph of merciless resolve has a lower tooltip, which is why you never saw stamblades hitting 20k bows either. But because of hybridization, Stamblades switched to merciless resolve because it naturally hits harder. Since you don't have to worry about changing your stam build to still hit hard.

Over time, they realized that "hey I'm a stamblade, let me use all of my stamina for fighting and use this mag im not using for spamming heals." Which is how we ended up with 1 playstyle fits all.

Fair enough I'm going by what I see most advertised for builds but I haven't sat down and done the math to say for sure how much the sets I see being worn have to do with damage achieved being that in some builds they provide other bonuses than damage. Either way I feel an issue is still that hybrid doesn't provide the diversity it was supposed to, well at least not for everyone so I wouldn't mind them rolling that back or revamping it at least. Hybrid does make ranged blade more possible at the moment but they could do that in other ways that probably didn't hurt the game as much for the little that it gives in my opinion.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

Really they could just reverse hybridization. Hybridization made the game unbalanced to fast. Seems like they don't have the dev power to get it back in line.

Before hybridization, No nightblade was hitting 20k bows. Nightblade wasn't even strong.

Yeah hybrid was suppose to give more choices and revitalize the game. In giving more choices it ended up making only a few builds worth running.

Also it wasn't just hybrid but also I'm sure part of those bows are from sets that are more recent as they tried to create chase sets to keep people playing.

I mean there's a lot of places to point fingers unfortunately.

I wouldn't go as far as saying new sets have played a part into building 20k+ merciless resolves. You can hit 20k bows with Nightmother's gaze and essence thief which have been in the game for well over 6 years. I blame hybridization 100%. niether one of those sets I mentioned give you any 1 specfic stat. Hyrbid blade is relying on Khajit passives/CP/and dual wield axes for its damage. That has nothing to do with new sets.

Nightblades can get 35% Weapon Crit from skills alone in a fight. so you add a line of crit chance maybe a precise trait or something and your sitting at 50%+ crit chance.

Before Hybridization, that Merciless resolve (Which is magick damage) scaled off of max magicka/spell damage/ and spell crit. Now it scales off of whatever's highest. Nightblade doesn't get free spell critical. So that Merciless resolve never recieved all of that free damage scaling. Before hybridization the stamina morph of merciless resolve has a lower tooltip, which is why you never saw stamblades hitting 20k bows either. But because of hybridization, Stamblades switched to merciless resolve because it naturally hits harder. Since you don't have to worry about changing your stam build to still hit hard.

Over time, they realized that "hey I'm a stamblade, let me use all of my stamina for fighting and use this mag im not using for spamming heals." Which is how we ended up with 1 playstyle fits all.

Fair enough I'm going by what I see most advertised for builds but I haven't sat down and done the math to say for sure how much the sets I see being worn have to do with damage achieved being that in some builds they provide other bonuses than damage. Either way I feel an issue is still that hybrid doesn't provide the diversity it was supposed to, well at least not for everyone so I wouldn't mind them rolling that back or revamping it at least. Hybrid does make ranged blade more possible at the moment but they could do that in other ways that probably didn't hurt the game as much for the little that it gives in my opinion.

All in all, buff rangeblade.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Math still seems shaky to me, buff skill of over performing class to make it more playable but then needed nerfs either get addressed and bring the power level back down or don't get addressed and time has been spent changing a skill when said nerfs were needed.

or

Spend time rebuilding the class a bit to better be in line with others then review possible changes to SS. That's my two cents but obviously zos will do what zos will do.

Also, swallow soul getting buffed won't nearly affect nightblade as a whole compared to nerfing anything, really. Im asking for a simple change not a class redo.

I'm all good with the change to SS but ZOS only seems to have like 2 hours of any given week to do dev work outside of the crown store, new things to sell, etc. So I agree it's a simple change but you also can't blame me for trying to harness every bit of miniscule dev time they will give us to go towards the biggest impacting changes regarding overall balance.

I didn't even think of this earlier and I know it's highly unlikely but I'd also worry that zos would buff ss in a way that might create an interaction that they didn't foresee causing them to then go back and have to nerf the change. Highly unlikely but my point is that I'd rather start out with a balance nb before stacking changes on the current meta.

Really they could just reverse hybridization. Hybridization made the game unbalanced to fast. Seems like they don't have the dev power to get it back in line.

Before hybridization, No nightblade was hitting 20k bows. Nightblade wasn't even strong.

Yeah hybrid was suppose to give more choices and revitalize the game. In giving more choices it ended up making only a few builds worth running.

Also it wasn't just hybrid but also I'm sure part of those bows are from sets that are more recent as they tried to create chase sets to keep people playing.

I mean there's a lot of places to point fingers unfortunately.

I wouldn't go as far as saying new sets have played a part into building 20k+ merciless resolves. You can hit 20k bows with Nightmother's gaze and essence thief which have been in the game for well over 6 years. I blame hybridization 100%. niether one of those sets I mentioned give you any 1 specfic stat. Hyrbid blade is relying on Khajit passives/CP/and dual wield axes for its damage. That has nothing to do with new sets.

Nightblades can get 35% Weapon Crit from skills alone in a fight. so you add a line of crit chance maybe a precise trait or something and your sitting at 50%+ crit chance.

Before Hybridization, that Merciless resolve (Which is magick damage) scaled off of max magicka/spell damage/ and spell crit. Now it scales off of whatever's highest. Nightblade doesn't get free spell critical. So that Merciless resolve never recieved all of that free damage scaling. Before hybridization the stamina morph of merciless resolve has a lower tooltip, which is why you never saw stamblades hitting 20k bows either. But because of hybridization, Stamblades switched to merciless resolve because it naturally hits harder. Since you don't have to worry about changing your stam build to still hit hard.

Over time, they realized that "hey I'm a stamblade, let me use all of my stamina for fighting and use this mag im not using for spamming heals." Which is how we ended up with 1 playstyle fits all.

Fair enough I'm going by what I see most advertised for builds but I haven't sat down and done the math to say for sure how much the sets I see being worn have to do with damage achieved being that in some builds they provide other bonuses than damage. Either way I feel an issue is still that hybrid doesn't provide the diversity it was supposed to, well at least not for everyone so I wouldn't mind them rolling that back or revamping it at least. Hybrid does make ranged blade more possible at the moment but they could do that in other ways that probably didn't hurt the game as much for the little that it gives in my opinion.

All in all, buff rangeblade.

Agreed, give it a ranged hard hitting spamable so they don't have to use crushing shock / a staff.

Add some type of added damage to the ranged spamable that makes up for the gap between the spamable and merciless. Like say added light attack damage or stacking penetration.

Also add ranged ultimate so they don't have to go melee or use non class ultimates to get the kill

I say go for it and let's see this play out.

DrNukenstein

Ranged blade does not need a buff. There are some very hard hitting ranged magblades and very obnoxious bowblades on pc NA. If you see one, just ask them how.

One thing the spec really does have going for it over melee is it's easy to combo crushing weapon with your spammable of choice. You could potentially mono combo someone with Crushing>Comet>LA+swallow soul>short heavy+impale. That combo could be from up to 35 meters away, and you could stealth away as soon some one turns their head towards you. That's just one way to do it.

Want to flex on the melee blades? Just pop camo hunter run up to one and use bow ult.

Not in the mood for kills, but want to contribute to fights? Bombard. It's like the easiest thing in the game to make work.

Then there's one that's really clever. You can cast lethal arrow, then bar swap and hit force pulse while using "that set". The montages are hilarious.

Just want to get on peoples nerves? M expedition on roll, cloak, and constant m expedition is squirrel mode.

All of these things are easier to do than to go into melee and connect a bunch of cancelled animations, and in the current meta are not that much less effective when it takes more than one clean combo to get a take down on the average player. Being able to get kills while staying safe should be balanced by not being as able to get kills.

FoJul

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Ranged blade does not need a buff. There are some very hard hitting ranged magblades and very obnoxious bowblades on pc NA. If you see one, just ask them how.

One thing the spec really does have going for it over melee is it's easy to combo crushing weapon with your spammable of choice. You could potentially mono combo someone with Crushing>Comet>LA+swallow soul>short heavy+impale. That combo could be from up to 35 meters away, and you could stealth away as soon some one turns their head towards you. That's just one way to do it.

Want to flex on the melee blades? Just pop camo hunter run up to one and use bow ult.

Not in the mood for kills, but want to contribute to fights? Bombard. It's like the easiest thing in the game to make work.

Then there's one that's really clever. You can cast lethal arrow, then bar swap and hit force pulse while using "that set". The montages are hilarious.

Just want to get on peoples nerves? M expedition on roll, cloak, and constant m expedition is squirrel mode.

All of these things are easier to do than to go into melee and connect a bunch of cancelled animations, and in the current meta are not that much less effective when it takes more than one clean combo to get a take down on the average player. Being able to get kills while staying safe should be balanced by not being as able to get kills.

No one is using Impale, if you have a bow Poison Inject is more useful. Crushing/Comet/LA, is a combo any class can do. You can literally just block it all. The bow ganker's you are referring too travel in a pack of atleast 3. And when out numbered by bow gankers, it makes it hard for people to fight it via stealth. Me and my group always make short work of them. They are annoying but not strong.

Literally any class can slot a bow and run around in vamp 4 cloaking and roll dodging away while casting the above abilities YOU mentioned. Minus swallow soul, and no one is using that either. The skill is just outplayed by all other options.

This is not the playstyle I'm referring to when I said rangeblade. On my next post ill make sure to specify Mageblade, because for some reason people are getting it confused. I'm not interested in playing gankblade. In other forums, one might say I'm against ganking.

In the OP I made, I explain it very well, for the most part of what I'm trying to get surfaced.

Bushido2513

This is why I made the list that I did which is basically a wishlist lol

I'm getting that people in here basically want mag sorc with NB flavor and some minor changes to make it fall in with NB spec.

It'll basically be magsorc but with burst heal instead of shield and equal or better evasion.

Not saying I agree with this as to the entire direction of the game but people have the right to want what they want

DrNukenstein

right, but if you're not ganking then you're crouching on the side of the fight putting out consistent dps and other effects that aren't interrupted unless someone decides to go over there and interrupt it and you decide to not hide.

That is an extremely safe play style, and should be kept weak especially because buffing it would raise the floor for being able to throw instagibs downtown with very limited windows of retaliation. Not to mention that making the class competitive with sorc at range would further prune sorc identity.

The way it is now, you can get kills but you'll need to use some off class skills and run ultra squish. That's okay and fair because it makes the playstyle punishable which every playstyle should be.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

right, but if you're not ganking then you're crouching on the side of the fight putting out consistent dps and other effects that aren't interrupted unless someone decides to go over there and interrupt it and you decide to not hide.

That is an extremely safe play style, and should be kept weak especially because buffing it would raise the floor for being able to throw instagibs downtown with very limited windows of retaliation. Not to mention that making the class competitive with sorc at range would further prune sorc identity.

The way it is now, you can get kills but you'll need to use some off class skills and run ultra squish. That's okay and fair because it makes the playstyle punishable which every playstyle should be.

Have to agree with pretty much all of this and that's well said.

In a bubble the idea of ranged magblade sounds cool but in the whole picture of ESO as it currently stands the above also rings true.

This is why I was saying earlier I get the idea of what people want here but would value some balance passes first.

DrNukenstein

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Have to agree with pretty much all of this and that's well said.

In a bubble the idea of ranged magblade sounds cool but in the whole picture of ESO as it currently stands the above also rings true.

This is why I was saying earlier I get the idea of what people want here but would value some balance passes first.

Thank you. A lot of players do not like when somebody sneaks up on them and they see a recap like "wedgie-32k". That is why people want to nerf cloak. Even less players would like when they see a recap like "Kobe-31k" and that would probably lead to cloak actually being nerfed.

FoJul

DrNukenstein wrote: »

right, but if you're not ganking then you're crouching on the side of the fight putting out consistent dps and other effects that aren't interrupted unless someone decides to go over there and interrupt it and you decide to not hide.

That is an extremely safe play style, and should be kept weak especially because buffing it would raise the floor for being able to throw instagibs downtown with very limited windows of retaliation. Not to mention that making the class competitive with sorc at range would further prune sorc identity.

The way it is now, you can get kills but you'll need to use some off class skills and run ultra squish. That's okay and fair because it makes the playstyle punishable which every playstyle should be.

But magblade has always been a ranged class. The only other magblades before were gankblades or bombblades. Ranged Mageblade has always been a number 1 option for playing nightblade. Until hybridization. The playstyle is still *OK* I guess. But every other playstyle/class got better benefits from hybridization than mageblade did. Hence, the reason why mageblade fell behind.

What I would want, is for MAGE Nightblade (Ranged Brawler) to be competitive once again. And we can start the push by changing swallow soul. Like I said in similar post, I CAN build into all damage and slot cloak. But at the end of the day that is something totally in the wrong direction of what I'm meaning. Range Nightblade was arguably the best ranged spec, and now it's almost the worst.

You compare to sorc like melee hybrid sorcs aren't strong. *Ripping identity from magsorc* Rangeblade was always better than magsorc. Dark Cloak/merciless resolve/swallow soul/and mirage has always been skills that a Mageblade will use. ALWAYS. After everything recieved buffs and Mageblade recieved nerfs. This playstyle has gotten worse and worse. What did the few left mageblades do? We slotted other spammables. *Crushing shock or Elemental weapon* They were better options. Still wasn't the best but better. Our bows did a decent chunk of damage. Our pressure was *OK*. But at the end of the day, Mageblade had more of a ranged toolkit than Sorcerer does. Overtime, sorcs became stronger damage wise because of hybridization. They get similar buffs and passives. Nightblade is just more evasive. Overtime they adjusted Range Nightblade to be even more Melee specific. Like the change to Merciless Resolve when in melee range, it burst heals you. It is more rewarding to play melee over ranged. When a year ago it was the opposite. When sorcerer, you can play ranged or melee. I guess technically, a Nightblade can still go ranged. But it's no where near as rewarding as going melee.

Ganking HOWEVER, is a different story. Ranged and melee ganking is on a different spectrum. If you want to compare them two alone...Melee ganking is better damage wise, while ranged ganking does less damage just easier to get away. Yet both of them will usually fold to just a few abilities.

Was Merciless Resolve a ranged magblade specific ability. Yes. Has it been changed to a melee burst ability that has range? Kinda.

I get, that being tanky, having high mobility, and a lot of burst and pressure damage is to much to ask for. But in the current meta that we are in, where everything has pressure and burst, It's just underperforming.

Templars Rangeplar, did not use to be as effective as it is today. Sorcerer's are only 1 burst heal away from being OP ranged classes. Wardens do a better job ranged as well. I'm sure if you wanted to make a ranged DK it wouldn't be fair. Necros are meme rangeclasses. Arcanist are pay to win. Range nightblades are non existent,(gankblades dont count, that is a different issue take your gankblade thoughts to a different thread) might as well just say melee.

In conclusion, Can nightblade recieve some working and fidgeting to better the ranged playstyle? Please and thank you!

Turtle_Bot

Looks like you got your wish. The new NB class set will be buffing swallow soul (damage and healing) by up to 34%, same with crippling grasps damage, the healing from offering and siphoning strikes and same with soul tether.

Up to 34% increase on the ranged spammable, the burst heal, the sustain HoT and the sticky DoT, if that cannot make rangeblade work, nothing will.

Now if only sorc could finally get some buffs/sets to make it function at all as a class outside of being a proc carrier that would be nice, but alas all sorc got was a [snip] class specific proc set that's worse than the current generic proc sets in every single way.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

In conclusion, Can nightblade recieve some working and fidgeting to better the ranged playstyle? Please and thank you!

As always I can't really blame anyone for asking for a wishlist of things but as I read through your reasoning and justifications I can only say that they just didn't seem to add up from the perspective of the game as a whole. But yes as just something that sounds fun to play if you just want to have that then yeah I could totally understand.

Like honestly I can see any class being playable at range and how any of us might want that for our particular class that we like. So in that aspect I'm with you and I can respect what you're saying. With respect to the health of the game, overall class diversity and identity, eh I don't think this sounds that good.

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Looks like you got your wish. The new NB class set will be buffing swallow soul (damage and healing) by up to 34%, same with crippling grasps damage, the healing from offering and siphoning strikes and same with soul tether.

Up to 34% increase on the ranged spammable, the burst heal, the sustain HoT and the sticky DoT, if that cannot make rangeblade work, nothing will.

Now if only sorc could finally get some buffs/sets to make it function at all as a class outside of being a proc carrier that would be nice, but alas all sorc got was a [snip] class specific proc set that's worse than the current generic proc sets in every single way.

Now this is pretty interesting, it's like energy overload but on a set for nb. I don't know what the final numbers will be after it hits pts, etc etc but not going to lie I like the idea of the set and what it will allow for and yes it does to some degree address what's being asked for here so that's a win win in my book. I also like that it gives some level of buff to SS but tries to at least have a balanced cost.

Also this is more of what I wanted in that it does pull power from other parts of the overall build while giving power to SS and other skills in that line. Still have to see the timing off the effects and what the final numbers are but I like it the concept on paper a lot!

FoJul

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Looks like you got your wish. The new NB class set will be buffing swallow soul (damage and healing) by up to 34%, same with crippling grasps damage, the healing from offering and siphoning strikes and same with soul tether.

Up to 34% increase on the ranged spammable, the burst heal, the sustain HoT and the sticky DoT, if that cannot make rangeblade work, nothing will.

Now if only sorc could finally get some buffs/sets to make it function at all as a class outside of being a proc carrier that would be nice, but alas all sorc got was a [snip] class specific proc set that's worse than the current generic proc sets in every single way.

it only takes up 5 gear slots though to be even close to equal to other classes. I wanted a class balance, not a new set. LOL but i mean its better than nothing I guess. While DK just got Major and Minor heroism thru their new class set....Corro Dks continue to be SSS tier while everything else stays B tier.

Turtle_Bot

FoJul wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Looks like you got your wish. The new NB class set will be buffing swallow soul (damage and healing) by up to 34%, same with crippling grasps damage, the healing from offering and siphoning strikes and same with soul tether.

Up to 34% increase on the ranged spammable, the burst heal, the sustain HoT and the sticky DoT, if that cannot make rangeblade work, nothing will.

Now if only sorc could finally get some buffs/sets to make it function at all as a class outside of being a proc carrier that would be nice, but alas all sorc got was a [snip] class specific proc set that's worse than the current generic proc sets in every single way.

it only takes up 5 gear slots though to be even close to equal to other classes. I wanted a class balance, not a new set. LOL but i mean its better than nothing I guess. While DK just got Major and Minor heroism thru their new class set....Corro Dks continue to be SSS tier while everything else stays B tier.

agreed, DK got the most broken set of the bunch, but as we both said, at least the NB set is something to bring that playstyle back into possibility in leu of actual class changes, wish sorc had gotten something even remotely close to that NB set. would been cool to finally see some theory crafting done for no pet sorc again that would actually produce potentially viable results, but alas, all sorc got was a bad proc set that requires nerfing their damage by running sub-optimal abilities to proc it frequently enough to have it do something.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

it only takes up 5 gear slots though to be even close to equal to other classes. I wanted a class balance, not a new set.

Sorc class says hello lol.


Also if a class could afford the loss of a fear set and still perform well it would definitely be nb

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

it only takes up 5 gear slots though to be even close to equal to other classes. I wanted a class balance, not a new set.

Sorc class says hello lol.


Also if a class could afford the loss of a fear set and still perform well it would definitely be nb

We won't know till we test the set, sure I'm optimistic about the changes. But is still doesn't change the fact that rangeblade doesn't have a huge ranged toolkit.

I think we should shift from hating nightblade's and shift to everyone hate dk's. Sure nightblade can hit a 30k+ combo on melee. Theres no real combo for ranged btw.

IMO dk's are a 1000 times worse than nightblades. Atleast fighting a nightblade you can predict it and block/roll dodge all their damage.

kypranb14_ESO

Maybe as a community we could come up with a unique way to buff Swallow Soul?

Here's an example:

Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 2160 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. When you heal an ally with Swallow Soul slotted, increase the damage done by this ability by 5%, up to 10 stacks. At 10 Stacks this ability becomes un-dodgeable.

This would help by giving ranged Magblades some extra burst, it would help with the pain point of everything ranged Magblades do is easily dodged, and it stays with the healer-theme that the Siphoning skill tree already has built into it. It also avoids further buffing Melee Magblades any further.

Thoughts? I love my ranged Magblade, I have mained ranged Magblade since I started on Xbox in 2014, and continued that adventure on PC in 2017.

FoJul

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe as a community we could come up with a unique way to buff Swallow Soul?

Here's an example:

Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 2160 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. When you heal an ally with Swallow Soul slotted, increase the damage done by this ability by 5%, up to 10 stacks. At 10 Stacks this ability becomes un-dodgeable.

This would help by giving ranged Magblades some extra burst, it would help with the pain point of everything ranged Magblades do is easily dodged, and it stays with the healer-theme that the Siphoning skill tree already has built into it. It also avoids further buffing Melee Magblades any further.

Thoughts? I love my ranged Magblade, I have mained ranged Magblade since I started on Xbox in 2014, and continued that adventure on PC in 2017.

To be honest, I don't even know anymore.

I was thinking make the damage morph not even heal anymore. Speed up the animation, or change it slightly. Make the other morph Funnel Health I think, and make it do the heal but less damage.

Or leave swallow AS IS, and add a buff, status effect, or something additional.

Iriidius

FoJul wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

right, but if you're not ganking then you're crouching on the side of the fight putting out consistent dps and other effects that aren't interrupted unless someone decides to go over there and interrupt it and you decide to not hide.

That is an extremely safe play style, and should be kept weak especially because buffing it would raise the floor for being able to throw instagibs downtown with very limited windows of retaliation. Not to mention that making the class competitive with sorc at range would further prune sorc identity.

The way it is now, you can get kills but you'll need to use some off class skills and run ultra squish. That's okay and fair because it makes the playstyle punishable which every playstyle should be.

But magblade has always been a ranged class. The only other magblades before were gankblades or bombblades. Ranged Mageblade has always been a number 1 option for playing nightblade. Until hybridization. The playstyle is still *OK* I guess. But every other playstyle/class got better benefits from hybridization than mageblade did. Hence, the reason why mageblade fell behind.

What I would want, is for MAGE Nightblade (Ranged Brawler) to be competitive once again. And we can start the push by changing swallow soul. Like I said in similar post, I CAN build into all damage and slot cloak. But at the end of the day that is something totally in the wrong direction of what I'm meaning. Range Nightblade was arguably the best ranged spec, and now it's almost the worst.

You compare to sorc like melee hybrid sorcs aren't strong. *Ripping identity from magsorc* Rangeblade was always better than magsorc. Dark Cloak/merciless resolve/swallow soul/and mirage has always been skills that a Mageblade will use. ALWAYS. After everything recieved buffs and Mageblade recieved nerfs. This playstyle has gotten worse and worse. What did the few left mageblades do? We slotted other spammables. *Crushing shock or Elemental weapon* They were better options. Still wasn't the best but better. Our bows did a decent chunk of damage. Our pressure was *OK*. But at the end of the day, Mageblade had more of a ranged toolkit than Sorcerer does. Overtime, sorcs became stronger damage wise because of hybridization. They get similar buffs and passives. Nightblade is just more evasive. Overtime they adjusted Range Nightblade to be even more Melee specific. Like the change to Merciless Resolve when in melee range, it burst heals you. It is more rewarding to play melee over ranged. When a year ago it was the opposite. When sorcerer, you can play ranged or melee. I guess technically, a Nightblade can still go ranged. But it's no where near as rewarding as going melee.

Ganking HOWEVER, is a different story. Ranged and melee ganking is on a different spectrum. If you want to compare them two alone...Melee ganking is better damage wise, while ranged ganking does less damage just easier to get away. Yet both of them will usually fold to just a few abilities.

Was Merciless Resolve a ranged magblade specific ability. Yes. Has it been changed to a melee burst ability that has range? Kinda.

I get, that being tanky, having high mobility, and a lot of burst and pressure damage is to much to ask for. But in the current meta that we are in, where everything has pressure and burst, It's just underperforming.

Templars Rangeplar, did not use to be as effective as it is today. Sorcerer's are only 1 burst heal away from being OP ranged classes. Wardens do a better job ranged as well. I'm sure if you wanted to make a ranged DK it wouldn't be fair. Necros are meme rangeclasses. Arcanist are pay to win. Range nightblades are non existent,(gankblades dont count, that is a different issue take your gankblade thoughts to a different thread) might as well just say melee. Wardens with shalks are rather middle ranged, Frostclench/cliffraces/froststaff is ranged but frostwall/northern storm are meele, arctic blast stun too. mostArcanist also play meele, Fatecarver is too. Rangeplar got buffed a bit, maybe it is equal now, but meeleplar is worse now, so many remplars changed to ranged.

In conclusion, Can nightblade recieve some working and fidgeting to better the ranged playstyle? Please and thank you!

Quite the opposite. I remember magsorc beeing the strongest range class for years. Sorc has more of a ranged toolkit than nightblades, it is completely ranged while magblade has 2 meele and 0 ranged dmg ults, it always had even when ranged magblade was strong. Magblades always had a meele toolkit too, meele stamblade uses mainly stam morphs of class skills and mag blades has the mag morphs of these skills, while sorc has no meele skills in their toolkit except streak and stuns. Meelemagblade was in mageblades shadow for a while, why cant it be the other way around? Mageblade shouldnt be only option.
DK has almost no range skills in their toolkit, only way I can imagine a ranged DK is a Sniper using corrosive armor(acuity, swamp rider and molag kena).

FoJul wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Looks like you got your wish. The new NB class set will be buffing swallow soul (damage and healing) by up to 34%, same with crippling grasps damage, the healing from offering and siphoning strikes and same with soul tether.

Up to 34% increase on the ranged spammable, the burst heal, the sustain HoT and the sticky DoT, if that cannot make rangeblade work, nothing will.

Now if only sorc could finally get some buffs/sets to make it function at all as a class outside of being a proc carrier that would be nice, but alas all sorc got was a [snip] class specific proc set that's worse than the current generic proc sets in every single way.

it only takes up 5 gear slots though to be even close to equal to other classes. I wanted a class balance, not a new set. LOL but i mean its better than nothing I guess. While DK just got Major and Minor heroism thru their new class set....Corro Dks continue to be SSS tier while everything else stays B tier.

DK didn’t get minor heroism on their class set, it was removed before the Set was released. And having to stay on one bar to get major heroism is also a big drawback. Most DKs continue to use Daedric Trickery, it is much better. Corrosive Armor got nerfed last patch partially because of DK set and doesnt generate ulti while in corrosive, so ulti gen sets are less effektive on dk now and don’t do anything(generate ulti) while in corrosive.
DK got heavily nerfed in 6 of last 7 updates and is only a shadow of its former self, maybe it is low S tier but rather A Tier now. Seems like players still have PTSD of DK beeing OP and see every DK still in Cyrodiil as a proof of dk still beeing OP althought it is least played of all 4 basegame classes on PC EU greyhost and ravenwatch and wont stop asking for nerfs until DK is unplayable.

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe as a community we could come up with a unique way to buff Swallow Soul?

Here's an example:

Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 2160 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. When you heal an ally with Swallow Soul slotted, increase the damage done by this ability by 5%, up to 10 stacks. At 10 Stacks this ability becomes un-dodgeable.

This would help by giving ranged Magblades some extra burst, it would help with the pain point of everything ranged Magblades do is easily dodged, and it stays with the healer-theme that the Siphoning skill tree already has built into it. It also avoids further buffing Melee Magblades any further.

Thoughts? I love my ranged Magblade, I have mained ranged Magblade since I started on Xbox in 2014, and continued that adventure on PC in 2017.

Why do all nbs think their attacks should be undodgeable? They are a stealth assassin class and attack from stealth by surprise when they are not defending. When you react fast and use defense than you did everything right and not make a mistake and should not still get hit. NB should not be the unstoppable defense breaker class where even when you know what they are doing next you still cant counter it. Getting stacks by crosshealing for a single target attack makes it most effektive for organized Xv1 gank groups, a playstile that is already too prevalent and bad for the game and shouldt be encouraged. Isnt it a great playstike when multiple rangeblades attack a solo player from stealth, all crosshealing each other and kiting/cloaking as soon as he only looks in their direction but backstabbing him as soon as he focusses another of them? Blocking is also not an option because it will not keep you alive long and slows you down when you have to be fast and get in a keep or ressoursse tower. It is especially the 10 stack attacks you have to dodge.

Bushido2513

So the other day I played NB ranged with crushing shock as the spamable. It was okish but to be honest to me the class doesn't feel fun at range and I don't think buffing ss would be enough by a long shot. I mean you also have the ranged immobilize skill with a dot but even so you need another ranged skill and ult and at that point you're making something like a sorc and losing identity.

I'd like for this to be a thing but I feel like this would take a lot of treating and doing to make it work and even then it would likely work but night not have identity.

I'm ok with just buffing ss but I was fine with the damage of cs, just didn't have the other parts of a ranged kit to really back it up.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So the other day I played NB ranged with crushing shock as the spamable. It was okish but to be honest to me the class doesn't feel fun at range and I don't think buffing ss would be enough by a long shot. I mean you also have the ranged immobilize skill with a dot but even so you need another ranged skill and ult and at that point you're making something like a sorc and losing identity.

I'd like for this to be a thing but I feel like this would take a lot of treating and doing to make it work and even then it would likely work but night not have identity.

I'm ok with just buffing ss but I was fine with the damage of cs, just didn't have the other parts of a ranged kit to really back it up.

I mean honestly, you're on the right track of admitting what's wrong with Range Blade. A buff to swallow soul will help pressure. Merciless Resolve is just fine, maybe even to much. Meteor can work just fine as a ranged ult.

Realistically, if I were to write a list of things I think could make Rangeblade compete, would look like this ;

Manifestation of Terror- Its already kinda ranged, but its ground target, so its useless. Make it similar to javelin. Single target stun.

Impale-Fix the scaling. Possibly make it 35% instead of 25%.

Cripple and Debilitate- need more damage, bottom line.

Swallow Soul- Add Major or minor lifesteal and remove the heal. That way the heal is a set ammount, and not OP. Every second cast to swallow soul, has its damage increased by 25%-35%. Somewhere in there.

Realistically the defense is already solid in nightblades toolkit, so maybe fix dark cloak and remove that standing still mechanic. Make it scale off of max mag aswell.

To be 100% honest, I'd take a merciless 20%-50% nerf for any one of these changes. Can't change my mind.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So the other day I played NB ranged with crushing shock as the spamable. It was okish but to be honest to me the class doesn't feel fun at range and I don't think buffing ss would be enough by a long shot. I mean you also have the ranged immobilize skill with a dot but even so you need another ranged skill and ult and at that point you're making something like a sorc and losing identity.

I'd like for this to be a thing but I feel like this would take a lot of treating and doing to make it work and even then it would likely work but night not have identity.

I'm ok with just buffing ss but I was fine with the damage of cs, just didn't have the other parts of a ranged kit to really back it up.

I mean honestly, you're on the right track of admitting what's wrong with Range Blade. A buff to swallow soul will help pressure. Merciless Resolve is just fine, maybe even to much. Meteor can work just fine as a ranged ult.

Realistically, if I were to write a list of things I think could make Rangeblade compete, would look like this ;

Manifestation of Terror- Its already kinda ranged, but its ground target, so its useless. Make it similar to javelin. Single target stun.

Impale-Fix the scaling. Possibly make it 35% instead of 25%.

Cripple and Debilitate- need more damage, bottom line.

Swallow Soul- Add Major or minor lifesteal and remove the heal. That way the heal is a set ammount, and not OP. Every second cast to swallow soul, has its damage increased by 25%-35%. Somewhere in there.

Realistically the defense is already solid in nightblades toolkit, so maybe fix dark cloak and remove that standing still mechanic. Make it scale off of max mag aswell.

To be 100% honest, I'd take a merciless 20%-50% nerf for any one of these changes. Can't change my mind.

I mean after you do all that though you'll just be a NB with stuff from other class toolkits. This can work but it feels like there's no theme.

Like with meteor yeah it works but not that well unless you have a cc that goes through block but other classes already do that combo so again it's working but where's the identity?

Honestly now blade makes the most sense when you think about ranged blade including ranged ult, stun, etc but it's also over done and nearly cheese at this point.

I don't have anything against the changes you're asking for I just hate to see another class potentially become homogenized.