Undeath Passive for Vampire needs removed/changed

Turtle_Bot

Twohothardware wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I wouldn't just straight up remove it or have player damage completely ignore it as that would make being a vampire nothing but detrimental in PvP while simultaneously buffing DK in PvP unless the additional flame damage taken is also removed and fighters guild skills unless their additional damage to undead/WW was also removed (destroying their theme).

I would make it into major protection all the times when vamp stage 3 or higher, and increase that to major + minor protection when below 30-40% health. This I feel would be a good compromise.

It brings the mitigation values more inline with other percentage mitigation values and ensures that it doesn't stack with the existing protection buffs while keeping with its current design theme where the closer to death the vampire is, the less damage it will take (but not to an absurd level).

This change would also mean that the vampire penalties (flame damage and FG 20% bonus damage) wouldn't just be a flat buff to DK and fighters guild skills while not being a buff to any other class or skill line.

Vampire shouldn't be a free source of damage mitigation in PvP because it forces everyone to be a vampire to be competitive. Any damage mitigation should be tied to running Vampire skills.

That's why it should be changed to the named buffs of major/minor protection.

Most classes already have access to 1 of the versions of that named buff in their kit and the other can be obtained via other skills/CP fairly easily already thanks to the Psijic, fighters guild and alliance war skill lines and Relentlessness CP.

By making them the named protection buffs, you would actually incentivize an actual choice for players, take vampire to get free access to the other version of the protection buff that they are missing, or, slot a different skill (or forgo that missing protection buff entirely) and run with much more sustain due to not being a vamp and not having the increased cost, not to mention the additional health regen (not major, but it is something) and the less damage taken from flame and fighters guild abilities this is 13-20% mitigation against flame damage (and siege iirc) and 20% mitigation against fighters guild abilities like Dawnbreaker by not taking vamp.

Iriidius

gariondavey wrote: »

Why not major protection below 30 or 40 percent hp?

That would be an 73.333-80% nerf from 15% average mitigation down to 3-4% mitigation assuming that probability for each hp % is the same which is not the case, most of the time players are at (nearly full) health. When they are below 30% health and get hit by an executioner they are probably dead even with major protection, it is much lower than 21+% from undead. when they immediately burstheal up major protection was useless too. What comes next, major protection below 10% health? I can get major protection all the time backbar with flare, by toppling charge on templar, deaden pain on necro or with 46% uptime by daedrick trickery(most DKs wear it). An 80% nerf would be overkill, probably 50% is already enaugh to make vampire not worth using considering the increased cost and flame dmg. An 80% nerf would make everybody immediately remove vampire.

Muizer wrote: »

IMHO vampires should be turned into a separate faction. Werewolves as well probably. It does not make sense to have hordes of vampires fighting each other on behalf of kings and queens of mortal realms.

So as punishment for playing an overperforming subclass vampires will play in new biggest faction and zerg everyone while mortals split into 3 factions get zerged by vampires (that would maybe already outnumber them if they werent split) as reward for not beeing vampire and werewolf as reward for playing a bad subclass can play 1man faction if there is even one? no thanks

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I wouldn't just straight up remove it or have player damage completely ignore it as that would make being a vampire nothing but detrimental in PvP while simultaneously buffing DK in PvP unless the additional flame damage taken is also removed and fighters guild skills unless their additional damage to undead/WW was also removed (destroying their theme).

I would make it into major protection all the times when vamp stage 3 or higher, and increase that to major + minor protection when below 30-40% health. This I feel would be a good compromise.

It brings the mitigation values more inline with other percentage mitigation values and ensures that it doesn't stack with the existing protection buffs while keeping with its current design theme where the closer to death the vampire is, the less damage it will take (but not to an absurd level).

This change would also mean that the vampire penalties (flame damage and FG 20% bonus damage) wouldn't just be a flat buff to DK and fighters guild skills while not being a buff to any other class or skill line.

Removing undead wouldnt be a buff to mag dk because everyone would do higher dmg, not just mag dks. Actually it would be a nerf to mag dk even without removing 13% extra flame dmg because nobody would use vampire without undead anyway, so removing extra flame dmg wouldn‘t be much difference to dk afterwards but only to the remaining few vampires and reason for it would be that vampires shouldn’t get dmg penalty when they don't get dmg and not to prevent mag dk from getting stronger.

Zastrix wrote: »

Aranax1914 wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but isnt vampire like just straight up bad in pve anyway? Not a single pve player i know willingly goes vamp.

Yes vampire is bad for PvE most of the time, only exception is skipping ads with stage 4 vampirism. I do personally use vampire in PvE but that's because I love mist form and the idea of vampires, not the *buffs* (lel) they provide. I'm 100% on board with removing undeath if something else is given which can work well in PvE, like extra mag regen.

Also that quote was taken out of context. I responded to utterly bad comments which were nerfs for PvE and PvP. I did say at the bottom of the taken quote that I didn't respond to comments which were okay. Here is another quote from the same commend:

What do you mean no effect in PvE?

The comments I responded to said:
* Remove Vampirism altogether, only make it a skin
* Change the 10% flame damage taken to 10% damage in general taken (which affects PvE)
* Increase non-player fire damage sources (i.e. PvE sources)
* Remove all outside sources of healing meaning you can't do any form of PvE content which isn't a normal dungeon

Edit/Rand: (not to you, to ESO/ZOS) and which game/world have you every heard of vampires having *less* vitality, usually it's sure they get increased flame/holy damage but they can very much so regenerate way faster. I'm not saying get free health regen but the skills which disable healing altogether are such a bad design idea especially after the nerfs you got. Like, GG, only templars in normal dungeons can run it now.

In other games vampires get holy dmg, in Skyrim they got no regen when the sun shines, in many movies(blade 2, underworld, 30 days of night, dracula untold usw) vampires burn in sunlight. Vampires getting constant dmg in sunlight would be an interisting but flawed change, in Cyrodiil the sky is always visible so half the day sunny, delves have no sunlight but also no PvP fights, IC it is too cloudy and IC is no sunlight too. There is no sunlight/holy dmg type but whole templar dmg is holy/sunlight style mag dmg, so it could do a bit more dmg, this would also help templars low dmg althought jabs should get reverted anyway and potl should be a balanced delayed burst like curse and templar shouldn’t get too strong.
Prismatic weapon glyph could be reverted to do more dmg against vampires like it used to.
9%(120%/110%=109%) more dmg from fighters guild skills is a joke, should be 20-30%, fighters guild seems like another form of holy dmg.
10% dmg, 20% to player vampire/werewolf insteat of 20% to all vampires/werewolves was done to reduce calculations but again vampire counter got weaker vs vampires/stronger vs non vampires.


Maybe they could also reduce undead to about 20%, but it shouldn’t get reduced too much, otherwise it gets useless. By the way I am not even such a big undead abuser/fan, dont even like it that much and have it only on few characters

Twohothardware wrote: »

Vampire is part of every single PvP build now and it's stronger than ever because everyone is running high health which maximizes the benefit it provides.

If every single player in Cyrodiil was playing as a Werewolf ZOS would nerf the crap out of Werewolf.

Definitely not every single PvP build has undead, nothing is used by every single PvP build, most players in PvP are zerglings that have no clue what they are doing. I have multiple PvP chars without vampire and also know other players not using it.

Erickson9610

Muizer wrote: »

IMHO vampires should be turned into a separate faction. Werewolves as well probably. It does not make sense to have hordes of vampires fighting each other on behalf of kings and queens of mortal realms.

I'd personally love the idea of fighting for a faction of werewolves, especially since Hircine tells you in the Werewolf tutorial quest that "the blood of the true hunter, and the pack, is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance."

Thematically, it makes sense. However, for gameplay, balancing, and technical reasons, I don't think it should happen. What if you wanted to keep fighting for your faction, but they kicked you out? What would this shift in people's factions do to the population of each faction? Is it even possible to change a character's alliance on the fly with Armory builds, and would that mean players could spawn camp in both Cyrodiil and in the Imperial City after using the Armory stations there?

mmtaniac

Yup ,only damage mitigation from vampire should be his mist form or maybe change one of ability to second defense skill that grant major protection somehow but remove this unbalanced thing that destroy whole pvp. Vampire need too choose if i want Dawnbreaker ultimate than i can't be vampire.

CameraBeardThePirate

Iriidius wrote: »

Definitely not every single PvP build has undead, nothing is used by every single PvP build, most players in PvP are zerglings that have no clue what they are doing. I have multiple PvP chars without vampire and also know other players not using it.

You're right - the players that don't know any better aren't running vampire. The ones that do, are. That's still a problem.

Bushido2513

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Definitely not every single PvP build has undead, nothing is used by every single PvP build, most players in PvP are zerglings that have no clue what they are doing. I have multiple PvP chars without vampire and also know other players not using it.

You're right - the players that don't know any better aren't running vampire. The ones that do, are. That's still a problem.

I was basically going to say this same thing. The problematic interactions of this passive are going to be seen more on your players that watch build videos and know how to build for PVP in general and that's still a large amount of players.

So it's not every single build but if you look at current guides for PVP you'll find the an overwhelming amount suggest vamp stage 3.

I mean with recovery being as easy and high as it is there's really no reason not to.

I mean it's 30 percent mitigation and all you have to do is run one or more of these options which will help performance anyways.

Haunch
Wretched
Roksa
One or two piece recovery head and shoulder
Recovery mundus
Infused tri recovery.

It's really a no brainer for vamp.stage 3 on a pvp build

Panderbander

When every build is a vampire the meta is fine and lasts for years, but when less than half the builds are werewolf it needs to be nerfed in three different ways for a single HP recovery build.

Clearly Undeath is good and balanced.

Bushido2513

Panderbander wrote: »

When every build is a vampire the meta is fine and lasts for years, but when less than half the builds are werewolf it needs to be nerfed in three different ways for a single HP recovery build.

Clearly Undeath is good and balanced.

To be fair one is all about taking damage with an offensive that shows up in various ways.

With ww it was just too obvious when this alt was taking no damage and still getting kills.

Optics is definitely a thing.

Panderbander

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

When every build is a vampire the meta is fine and lasts for years, but when less than half the builds are werewolf it needs to be nerfed in three different ways for a single HP recovery build.

Clearly Undeath is good and balanced.

To be fair one is all about taking damage with an offensive that shows up in various ways.

With ww it was just too obvious when this alt was taking no damage and still getting kills.

Optics is definitely a thing.

Doesn't change the fact of the matter.

Bushido2513

Panderbander wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

When every build is a vampire the meta is fine and lasts for years, but when less than half the builds are werewolf it needs to be nerfed in three different ways for a single HP recovery build.

Clearly Undeath is good and balanced.

To be fair one is all about taking damage with an offensive that shows up in various ways.

With ww it was just too obvious when this alt was taking no damage and still getting kills.

Optics is definitely a thing.

Doesn't change the fact of the matter.

Vampire is busted and in need of a rework. I'm just saying in your comparison that nobody passed vma with a flawless with just light attacks and fat heal using vampire.

Not that vma is at all the bar it used to be but just saying you can't really compare the two because ww allowed for offensive and defensive in one easy one bar build.

Vamp is just defensive without really adding to easy offense.

If vamp ult worked in the same way as we ult in giving permanent offensive and defensive capabilities for as long as you decided to stay in that form you'd see changes

DrNukenstein

I'd rather see what ideas they can come up with to make staying human or going WW competitive with vampirism. I don't believe this passive overperforms, it's that it overperforms relative to its opportunity cost (you only have to look a little bit shriveled)

Something like permanent brut/sorc for all werewolves even in human form just as a passive that you have all the time along with some other passives that benefit human form.

or a new tree of mortal only skills/passives that gives you really nice things to have in PVP. Like a passive that gives you a bloodthirsty trait and a half worth of execute scaling damage, or ~10% crit resist, or a detect skill that gives you the detect pot effect for 5 seconds. #Makemortalsgreatagain

Arcanasx

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'd rather see what ideas they can come up with to make staying human or going WW competitive with vampirism. I don't believe this passive overperforms, it's that it overperforms relative to its opportunity cost (you only have to look a little bit shriveled)

Something like permanent brut/sorc for all werewolves even in human form just as a passive that you have all the time along with some other passives that benefit human form.

or a new tree of mortal only skills/passives that gives you really nice things to have in PVP. Like a passive that gives you a bloodthirsty trait and a half worth of execute scaling damage, or ~10% crit resist, or a detect skill that gives you the detect pot effect for 5 seconds. #Makemortalsgreatagain

It hasn't helped that the battle spirit change that nerfed health recovery for PvP made going vampire more of an obvious choice. And if I remember correctly, its ironic because the health recovery nerf was originally meant to combat troll tanks abusing all the new and buffed overloaded health recovery sets, so instead of toning down the extreme cases and doing something about the strategic recovery CP, they decided to ruin health recovery for everybody else in PvP. This was also an indirect buff for pressure builds.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/473182/nerf-fury-nerf-incap-nerf-shields-nerf-1hs-nerf-seventh-legion-nerf-dlc-dungeons-nerf-mael

Bushido2513

Arcanasx wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'd rather see what ideas they can come up with to make staying human or going WW competitive with vampirism. I don't believe this passive overperforms, it's that it overperforms relative to its opportunity cost (you only have to look a little bit shriveled)

Something like permanent brut/sorc for all werewolves even in human form just as a passive that you have all the time along with some other passives that benefit human form.

or a new tree of mortal only skills/passives that gives you really nice things to have in PVP. Like a passive that gives you a bloodthirsty trait and a half worth of execute scaling damage, or ~10% crit resist, or a detect skill that gives you the detect pot effect for 5 seconds. #Makemortalsgreatagain

It hasn't helped that the battle spirit change that nerfed health recovery for PvP made going vampire more of an obvious choice. And if I remember correctly, its ironic because the health recovery nerf was originally meant to combat troll tanks abusing all the new and buffed overloaded health recovery sets, so instead of toning down the extreme cases and doing something about the strategic recovery, they decided to ruin health recovery for everybody else in PvP. This was also an indirect buff for pressure builds.

Health recovery was just a bad mechanic or at least tricky to balance. Too much and you have troll tanks and werewolves, too little and it's not really worth building into.

With the game being so defensive as is I really don't want to see more defensive options.

Vamp should just be changed to a named buff. Or even give X percent mitigation per stage starting at stage 2 and change the penalty costs to be more in line with the abundance of recovery the game now offers.

Araneae6537

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

Bushido2513

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

Iriidius

mmtaniac wrote: »

Yup ,only damage mitigation from vampire should be his mist form or maybe change one of ability to second defense skill that grant major protection somehow but remove this unbalanced thing that destroy whole pvp. Vampire need too choose if i want Dawnbreaker ultimate than i can't be vampire.

Undead is only reason to use vampire for most vampires, completely removing it would make most vampires immediately go to priest and remove vampire and vampire would be as rare as werewolf. Thought we don’t want ZoS to overnerf things but then players ask for a complete removal of undead or a 80% nerf as the first solution.

Panderbander wrote: »

When every build is a vampire the meta is fine and lasts for years, but when less than half the builds are werewolf it needs to be nerfed in three different ways for a single HP recovery build.

Clearly Undeath is good and balanced.

It was not only less than half the builds but less than 10%, less than any class, at least on PC EU. Despite players claiming Cyrodiil was full of WEs I saw a WWs maybe once every few weeks, even in big faction stack fights usually there was not a single werewolf.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'd rather see what ideas they can come up with to make staying human or going WW competitive with vampirism. I don't believe this passive overperforms, it's that it overperforms relative to its opportunity cost (you only have to look a little bit shriveled)

Something like permanent brut/sorc for all werewolves even in human form just as a passive that you have all the time along with some other passives that benefit human form.

or a new tree of mortal only skills/passives that gives you really nice things to have in PVP. Like a passive that gives you a bloodthirsty trait and a half worth of execute scaling damage, or ~10% crit resist, or a detect skill that gives you the detect pot effect for 5 seconds. #Makemortalsgreatagain

If Werewolf had passives in human form, they would probably also get drawbacks in human form or not get mortal passives. I like it that you are practically a mortal if you are not transformed. Drawbacks would force players to remove WW.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'd rather see what ideas they can come up with to make staying human or going WW competitive with vampirism. I don't believe this passive overperforms, it's that it overperforms relative to its opportunity cost (you only have to look a little bit shriveled)

Something like permanent brut/sorc for all werewolves even in human form just as a passive that you have all the time along with some other passives that benefit human form.

or a new tree of mortal only skills/passives that gives you really nice things to have in PVP. Like a passive that gives you a bloodthirsty trait and a half worth of execute scaling damage, or ~10% crit resist, or a detect skill that gives you the detect pot effect for 5 seconds. #Makemortalsgreatagain

It hasn't helped that the battle spirit change that nerfed health recovery for PvP made going vampire more of an obvious choice. And if I remember correctly, its ironic because the health recovery nerf was originally meant to combat troll tanks abusing all the new and buffed overloaded health recovery sets, so instead of toning down the extreme cases and doing something about the strategic recovery, they decided to ruin health recovery for everybody else in PvP. This was also an indirect buff for pressure builds.

Health recovery was just a bad mechanic or at least tricky to balance. Too much and you have troll tanks and werewolves, too little and it's not really worth building into.

With the game being so defensive as is I really don't want to see more defensive options.

Vamp should just be changed to a named buff. Or even give X percent mitigation per stage starting at stage 2 and change the penalty costs to be more in line with the abundance of recovery the game now offers.

Sure we already have enaugh defense and don't need more defensive options, but hp regen is an option already existing since start of the game, it is just so bad that most players wouldn't even notice if ZoS would completely removed it. Problem is that Zos is ignoring their own standart and has multiple different hp regen exchange rates. For minor set boni and glyphs you get 1 hp regen insteat of 1 (wpn/spell) dmg/(mag/stam) regen. For major set boni you get 3 hp regen for 1 (wpn/spell) dmg/ (mag/stam) regen. For Buff food you get hp regen for free/ for having golden insteat of purple buffood. While 1 wpn dmg is more valuable than 1 hp regen, it is probably less valuable than 3 hp(pre nerf) regen in many cases and the real value is probably somewhere in between around 2. People were just stacking sources where they got hp regen for a third of the weapon dmg or for nothing and still not touching juwelry glyphs or minor set boni but ZoS nerfed them all by battlespirit. Actually hp regen beeing halved by battlespirit is logical because healing is too, but hp regen is much weaker than healing or stam/mag regen, with 4k mag you can cast a burst heal that heals you for 10-20k and for 3k stam vigor that heals you for 20-30k. In PvE hp regen is also bad. Should be 4 hp regen before/2 after battlespirit for 1 wpn dmg, maybe finetuning it if it still over/underperforms.
The extra defense wouldn't be so bad because it would be only for non vampires that don’t have undead.
Making templar dmg also higher vs vampires, vampire could be better defense against burst and mortal better defense against pressure. And fighters guild dmg also should be 20-40% higher, not just 10%(actually 9% because dimishing return)

Bushido2513

Iriidius wrote: »

The extra defense wouldn't be so bad because it would be only for non vampires that don’t have undead.
Making templar dmg also higher vs vampires, vampire could be better defense against burst and mortal better defense against pressure. And fighters guild dmg also should be 20-40% higher, not just 10%(actually 9% because dimishing return)

I'd totally be fine with undeath staying exactly as is if I knew they actually had to fear a db, fighters guild skill, or even templar. It would actually make the choice matter more. It doesn't even have to be a devastating amount of extra damage but just enough to make you really consider who you should and shouldn't fight. This game has very few natural enemies where you have to say if I face x class or build I'm toast but that same x class or build has to say the same for some enemies it faces.

In ESO you can just get on one of the better classes and meta builds and do good against pretty much whoever.

Araneae6537

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

I think it’s good that vampire isn’t meta for PVE. Ideally it offers a variation or different play style that people choose because they want to play a particular character as a vampire, and never because they feel they must. I would never make most of my characters vampires, but the characters in Greymoor made me interested in creating one. It would be nice if it were not entirely downsides in group PVE.

Bushido2513

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

I think it’s good that vampire isn’t meta for PVE. Ideally it offers a variation or different play style that people choose because they want to play a particular character as a vampire, and never because they feel they must. I would never make most of my characters vampires, but the characters in Greymoor made me interested in creating one. It would be nice if it were not entirely downsides in group PVE.

All of my 18 characters are vampires because I mostly only PVP and just go to vamp one for PvE though I suppose I should try using the build station.

But yeah when you say it like that I'm really glad it isn't meta for PvE as well. My brain couldn't process that

Araneae6537

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

I think it’s good that vampire isn’t meta for PVE. Ideally it offers a variation or different play style that people choose because they want to play a particular character as a vampire, and never because they feel they must. I would never make most of my characters vampires, but the characters in Greymoor made me interested in creating one. It would be nice if it were not entirely downsides in group PVE.

All of my 18 characters are vampires because I mostly only PVP and just go to vamp one for PvE though I suppose I should try using the build station.

But yeah when you say it like that I'm really glad it isn't meta for PvE as well. My brain couldn't process that

This sounds to me like a good reason to change/replace/eliminate Undeath — if people feel they MUST go vampire or else be at a disadvantage. It would make sense if vampire complemented stealth builds, but if ALL builds do better in PvP as vampires then this is not right.

Bushido2513

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

I think it’s good that vampire isn’t meta for PVE. Ideally it offers a variation or different play style that people choose because they want to play a particular character as a vampire, and never because they feel they must. I would never make most of my characters vampires, but the characters in Greymoor made me interested in creating one. It would be nice if it were not entirely downsides in group PVE.

All of my 18 characters are vampires because I mostly only PVP and just go to vamp one for PvE though I suppose I should try using the build station.

But yeah when you say it like that I'm really glad it isn't meta for PvE as well. My brain couldn't process that

This sounds to me like a good reason to change/replace/eliminate Undeath — if people feel they MUST go vampire or else be at a disadvantage. It would make sense if vampire complemented stealth builds, but if ALL builds do better in PvP as vampires then this is not right.

Yeah it's funny but think about if I asked you if you wanted the following on your character in pvp.

Your skills cost their regular cost.

You take no extra flame damage.

You take 30 percent more damage based on your missing health

That's basically what I'm putting on my character in pvp set this point if I go no vamp.

Twohothardware

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

I think it’s good that vampire isn’t meta for PVE. Ideally it offers a variation or different play style that people choose because they want to play a particular character as a vampire, and never because they feel they must. I would never make most of my characters vampires, but the characters in Greymoor made me interested in creating one. It would be nice if it were not entirely downsides in group PVE.

All of my 18 characters are vampires because I mostly only PVP and just go to vamp one for PvE though I suppose I should try using the build station.

But yeah when you say it like that I'm really glad it isn't meta for PvE as well. My brain couldn't process that

This sounds to me like a good reason to change/replace/eliminate Undeath — if people feel they MUST go vampire or else be at a disadvantage. It would make sense if vampire complemented stealth builds, but if ALL builds do better in PvP as vampires then this is not right.

Yeah it's funny but think about if I asked you if you wanted the following on your character in pvp.

Your skills cost their regular cost.

You take no extra flame damage.

You take 30 percent more damage based on your missing health

That's basically what I'm putting on my character in pvp set this point if I go no vamp.

Yeah, it's not a choice whether or not to run Vampire in PvP right now. You can play without it but the other players will always have an extra advantage over your build because there's no counter to it.

Bushido2513

Twohothardware wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree, remove Undeath and compensate by removing the increased non-vampire ability costs, of give vampire something else that is not completely useless in PVE.

It's pretty clear that they don't want vampire or ww to be a thing in any kind of real PvE content. They both seem to have been steered towards straight up rp or pvp options if anything though I rarely see ww in any content and well vampire is on pretty much every PVP build..


To me it actually sort of makes sense being that pvp has fewer options in general than PvE or at least tends to already see more noticeable nerfs than PvE.

I think it’s good that vampire isn’t meta for PVE. Ideally it offers a variation or different play style that people choose because they want to play a particular character as a vampire, and never because they feel they must. I would never make most of my characters vampires, but the characters in Greymoor made me interested in creating one. It would be nice if it were not entirely downsides in group PVE.

All of my 18 characters are vampires because I mostly only PVP and just go to vamp one for PvE though I suppose I should try using the build station.

But yeah when you say it like that I'm really glad it isn't meta for PvE as well. My brain couldn't process that

This sounds to me like a good reason to change/replace/eliminate Undeath — if people feel they MUST go vampire or else be at a disadvantage. It would make sense if vampire complemented stealth builds, but if ALL builds do better in PvP as vampires then this is not right.

Yeah it's funny but think about if I asked you if you wanted the following on your character in pvp.

Your skills cost their regular cost.

You take no extra flame damage.

You take 30 percent more damage based on your missing health

That's basically what I'm putting on my character in pvp set this point if I go no vamp.

Yeah, it's not a choice whether or not to run Vampire in PvP right now. You can play without it but the other players will always have an extra advantage over your build because there's no counter to it.

Yup and you can't even really say well yeah I can throw higher cost skills more often or hey I don't have to worry about dks as much because neither of those are an actual issue for a vamp.

If recoveries weren't as strong or it wasn't just normal to have recovery food and still have damage this might make more sense. These days everyone just has wrecked or haunch, problem solved.

Adernath

Hey ZOS, I am about to take vamp now for min/maxing my PvP build.

So its high time to nerf the undeath passive

Bushido2513

Adernath wrote: »

Hey ZOS, I am about to take vamp now for min/maxing my PvP build.

So its high time to nerf the undeath passive

All jokes aside I'd bet in game gold this gets attention in the next patch cycle.

CameraBeardThePirate

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Hey ZOS, I am about to take vamp now for min/maxing my PvP build.

So its high time to nerf the undeath passive

All jokes aside I'd bet in game gold this gets attention in the next patch cycle.

Doubt it tbh. Undeath has always been overtuned, and in the patch meant to balance out vampires (Greymoor), what did ZOS do? They buffed it.

Bushido2513

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Hey ZOS, I am about to take vamp now for min/maxing my PvP build.

So its high time to nerf the undeath passive

All jokes aside I'd bet in game gold this gets attention in the next patch cycle.

Doubt it tbh. Undeath has always been overtuned, and in the patch meant to balance out vampires (Greymoor), what did ZOS do? They buffed it.

Then that definitely means it's getting touched. ZOS has a formula over do until you cry and I mean really cry, let it go on for one more path, then change it and say hey we listen and now you see how much we're care about you and that all is not lost.

It's kind of similar to dots and how for a while everyone was dying to dots like everywhere until ZOS self nerfed their own changes and was like hey now come back and enjoy.

Stop playing out your hero complex on me ZOS 😂

Zabagad

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Hey ZOS, I am about to take vamp now for min/maxing my PvP build.

So its high time to nerf the undeath passive

All jokes aside I'd bet in game gold this gets attention in the next patch cycle.

Doubt it tbh. Undeath has always been overtuned, and in the patch meant to balance out vampires (Greymoor), what did ZOS do? They buffed it.

Then that definitely means it's getting touched. ZOS has a formula over do until you cry and I mean really cry, let it go on for one more path, then change it and say hey we listen and now you see how much we're care about you and that all is not lost.

It's kind of similar to dots and how for a while everyone was dying to dots like everywhere until ZOS self nerfed their own changes and was like hey now come back and enjoy.

Stop playing out your hero complex on me ZOS 😂

Oh nice to know

So when do they nerf Maarselok/Master DW/Vate Proc-Sets (in PvP) then?
And when do they remove the combat bug? We already cried about that, before undeath even existed?

Additional question: When do they buff Necros and nerf NBs...? (again PVP)

Bushido2513

Zabagad wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Hey ZOS, I am about to take vamp now for min/maxing my PvP build.

So its high time to nerf the undeath passive

All jokes aside I'd bet in game gold this gets attention in the next patch cycle.

Doubt it tbh. Undeath has always been overtuned, and in the patch meant to balance out vampires (Greymoor), what did ZOS do? They buffed it.

Then that definitely means it's getting touched. ZOS has a formula over do until you cry and I mean really cry, let it go on for one more path, then change it and say hey we listen and now you see how much we're care about you and that all is not lost.

It's kind of similar to dots and how for a while everyone was dying to dots like everywhere until ZOS self nerfed their own changes and was like hey now come back and enjoy.

Stop playing out your hero complex on me ZOS 😂

Oh nice to know

So when do they nerf Maarselok/Master DW/Vate Proc-Sets (in PvP) then?
And when do they remove the combat bug? We already cried about that, before undeath even existed?

Additional question: When do they buff Necros and nerf NBs...? (again PVP)

Marselock, Master DW, Vate, procs fall under a different category where the problem is that enough people like them on various classes that it's hard to have just one movement where people unanimously say they hate it. I could only see them altering these by either a small amount or if they have new items or content to push so it's hard to predict really and could go either way in the next two patch cycles.

Combat bug will stay until they revamp the game code so again it's either way but I wouldn't expect anything for 3 to 4 patch cycles if at all. Combat bug is generally accepted at this point and is a lower priority to several issues that are more in the face of all players. Also combat bug has workarounds which aren't that great but still they are there. So I wouldn't expect anything any time soon.

NB nerf should happen in the next patch or two. Not a crazy nerf or maybe even one that people care about but something to throw the people a bone. Either that or a buff to other classes so that the focus can come off if NB.


I'm giving multiple options and general timelines because what I'm saying is that ZOS is a business so they will throw players bones from time to time and are in with upsetting one group to make another happy then going back and making the second group happy by upsetting the first or another group entirely

Best course of action is to speak up but remember that for now you just have to play the game we have and hope your turn at the top comes soon. Best way to stay in and have some amount of fun if you're not the focus of the game direction at the moment.