Undeath Passive for Vampire needs removed/changed

ebix_

Panderbander wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

PvP needs undeath right now because damage is at its all time high. But I agree undeath is offering too much mitigation.
However I suggest you to give it a try without undeath and you will see how fast you get nuked.

Werewolves have no other way but to use their skills but vamps are not desined that way. two different things with their own unique playstyle and you cant push them in the same balance filter. if so then I can say why should you be able to use Sword and shield and get the block mitigation passive without snb Skills, but this is how the game is desined.

Vamp has cost penalty and health recovery penalty that affect everyone but the fire damage one is a huge bonus that dk benefits the most. All I'm saying is 13% free damage is too much and its one of the reasons dk can go more defense and still be fine. also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

let me explain it in a simple way now:
if against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +13%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery
its a huge difference, its a major berserk and a half minor berserk difference.

what I'm suggesting is:
if against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +3%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery

instead of increasing overall penalty=> we can reduce a penalty that benefits one class the most and reduce the reward of undeath.

To your points:

PvP is doable without Undeath. Every werewolf out there does it while taking 25% more damage from poison with the only damage mitigation coming from one morph of the transformation, and only 10% at that. Even outside of that as a human it's still doable; I dropped Undeath a long while back on my human builds and still PvP just fine. It's just forced me to quit playing sloppy because I no longer had a crutch to save me.

One Hand and Shield skill line still requires you to be using a One Hand and Shield to benefit from its passives. Swap bars away from it and those passives go away. That isn't a fair comparison.

Finally, the argument being made here is that Undeath gives far too much benefit compared the cost of the benefit given. Reducing the cost and benefit to similar degrees will only serve to perpetuate the same problem. Further, balancing against a single class is a poor way to balance. Nerfing Undeath isn't a DK buff. DK isn't the only class capable of fire damage.

Having a passive completely negate one of the downsides of the skill line that it came from is frankly asinine.

First of all I havent seen many werewolves but the few ones I see die faster than a npc, unless they are build tanky then they have no damage.
Second, "Doable" is not enough in endgame, you will be fine against bad players but good ones will destroy you wihtout undeath because of the damage inflation we have in pvp.
Third, my Sword and shield example was to show that some passives are ment to give you its benefit without slotting an skill of that line since the person I was responding to compared how the werewolf and vampire passives work, so its wrong to pass all passive down the same filter.
Last thing, I never said Dk is the only class with flame damage. I said Dk benefits the most from flame damage taken that comes with vamp and thats a direct reason they can go for more defense and still do decent damage. its a penalty that one class benefits the most and others little to none. so by reducing flame damgae to 3% and undeath to 20% everyone can enjoy doing up to 10% more damage to vampires, not only Dk.
That was my whole point.

Urzigurumash

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd rather not see vampirism lose the fire damage debuff without getting something lore-wise to make up for it. Fire/sun damage is a big part of them.

Maybe extra fire damage taken only counts from fire damage caused by non-players, and then rebalance the other numbers around that.

Give back magicka regen as vampires are master of the arcane mostly.

You mean give it to them in general or as a replacement for changing one of their current buffs/debuffs?

The only thing that worries me about something like magicka regen is that I don't think vampirism should be something tempting to have unless you want your character to actually play as a vampire. Something like regen is desirable, especially in PVP, not so much PVE anymore afaik.

Before the Greymoor rework, vampirism gave magicka and stamina regen and being a vampire was required (in terms of meta), especially for tanks. That was so meh.

I feel like this issue can be avoided if they tie the passives to how many skills slotted, like Mages and Fighters Guild. Like 2% mag and stam regen per skill slotted. If Undeath stays, X% damage reduction under whatever missing HP per skill slotted. Etc etc. Might cause balancing issues somewhere else though, idk.
But this way, you get vampire benefits when playing as a vampire. This should probably apply to the debuffs as well, with only flat tiny percentage debuffs at stage 1 with no skills slotted. ex. 2% fire damage taken at stage 1 with no skills slotted


I have one character who's a vampire and she stays at stage 1 for rp reasons. I want her to have some effects of being one. It was sad enough when they reversed feeding with the rework.

As to the comment about old Vamp passives being indispensable for Tanks, I assume you are right about PvE but this was conspicuously not true in PvP largely because for quite some time the strongest "Troll Tank" was, as I alluded to in my prior comment, Trollking plus Orgnum's (plus either Beekeeper, Permafrost, or Green Pact) (and prior to this last rework to Mistform, perma-Mist was by far the strongest Troll Tank in PvP).

But more generally as I said about Undeath at its old scaling being more of a unique form of mitigation and inefficient when ran as an additional layer of mitigation on a tank in PvP - maybe this has to do with self-sustain on a solo tank being a massive consideration for the often solo Troll Tank that doesn't exist on a PvE tank with the support of an optimized Healer - and because PvE is more about surviving one shots through playing the mechs, which requires sustaining resources to do, "tanking" in PvP is more about avoiding being whittled down and there really isn't an effective armor cap in PvP since players have Penetration.

Of course I don't mean to suggest things be balanced around Troll Tanking - an unpopular fringe annoyance more than a meaningful part of PvP - but to me this all illustrates well "what changed" about Undeath and why reversion to its old scaling seems like a really good and simple fix for Undeath in PvP without disrupting people who really enjoy playing a Vampire for reasons other than Undeath. Your suggestion to make the passives scale with skills slotted - it's not a terrible idea at all, it might work BUT it limits player freedom in an undesirable way. Right now the Unnatural Movement + Strike from the Shadows + Arterial Burst + Seething Fury playstyle is a unique and interesting way to play a "Thief" spec in PvP and doesn't need a nerf by way of having to slot the fairly useless Mesmerize or Drain.

Weckless

Panderbander wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

PvP needs undeath right now because damage is at its all time high. But I agree undeath is offering too much mitigation.
However I suggest you to give it a try without undeath and you will see how fast you get nuked.

Werewolves have no other way but to use their skills but vamps are not desined that way. two different things with their own unique playstyle and you cant push them in the same balance filter. if so then I can say why should you be able to use Sword and shield and get the block mitigation passive without snb Skills, but this is how the game is desined.

Vamp has cost penalty and health recovery penalty that affect everyone but the fire damage one is a huge bonus that dk benefits the most. All I'm saying is 13% free damage is too much and its one of the reasons dk can go more defense and still be fine. also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

let me explain it in a simple way now:
if against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +13%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery
its a huge difference, its a major berserk and a half minor berserk difference.

what I'm suggesting is:
if against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +3%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery

instead of increasing overall penalty=> we can reduce a penalty that benefits one class the most and reduce the reward of undeath.

To your points:

PvP is doable without Undeath. Every werewolf out there does it while taking 25% more damage from poison with the only damage mitigation coming from one morph of the transformation, and only 10% at that. Even outside of that as a human it's still doable; I dropped Undeath a long while back on my human builds and still PvP just fine. It's just forced me to quit playing sloppy because I no longer had a crutch to save me.

One Hand and Shield skill line still requires you to be using a One Hand and Shield to benefit from its passives. Swap bars away from it and those passives go away. That isn't a fair comparison.

Finally, the argument being made here is that Undeath gives far too much benefit compared the cost of the benefit given. Reducing the cost and benefit to similar degrees will only serve to perpetuate the same problem. Further, balancing against a single class is a poor way to balance. Nerfing Undeath isn't a DK buff. DK isn't the only class capable of fire damage.

Having a passive completely negate one of the downsides of the skill line that it came from is frankly asinine.

I disagree that reducing undeath wouldn't be a buff to dk. It's not a direct buff but it absolutely is an indirect one. And while undeath does balance out against the increased fire damage, it still is an advantage because instead of getting extra mitigation you simply build back to normal, effectively canceling undeath out and sticking you with increased cost and no benefit. This also works to the dks advantage as well because they are known for wearing you down and draining your resources and that just helps them do it faster. I dont even wanna think about the old siphoner cp they used to run

Zastrix

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

You mean give it to them in general or as a replacement for changing one of their current buffs/debuffs?

Just magicka regen on top of the current buff/debuffs and then I would be okay with nerfing undeath.

Panderbander

I'm not going to dispute that most werewolves die incredibly easily but sticking with the playstyle forces you to learn to deal with living with extreme downsides. I can also assure you, I have no issues killing good players without vamp/undeath.

The point is that Undeath allows even bad players to play sloppy and be rewarded for it with effectively no downside as sustain has become too easy. Removing Undeath from its ubiquitous status by nerfing it or requiring one to lean into vampire abilities to get the benefit of it would serve to improve the pvp landscape for everyone. Players dying is fine and normal, X'ers might actually be killable and the X'ers likely won't find themselves fighting a zerg of tanks at all times meaning they can stop complaining about the difficulty of X'ing in a tank meta.

AndreNoir

ebix_ wrote: »

also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

Red Mountain outshine every burst set atm and Way of Fire just a top dps set with a brainless condition. Fire damage is the last reason why they are so popular

kyatos_binarini

moving it to stage 4 doesn’t seems like a noticeable nerf. my proposal:
- return it to pre-greymoor condition (works only under 50% hp)
- or add scaling with vampire skills equipped (each skill + up to 5% reduction). this will allow players with “vampire combat style” use this passive with full power and on the other hand made this passive useless for meta builds
- or replace with major protection or resolve

Urzigurumash

AndreNoir wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

Red Mountain outshine every burst set atm and Way of Fire just a top dps set with a brainless condition. Fire damage is the last reason why they are so popular

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622887/conditional-damage-procs-deserve-more-aggressive-scaling

JerBearESO

They need to rethink the buff AND the flame damage penalty. Being specifically affected by flame may be roleplay healthy but not gameplay healthy, as it simply creates an advantage for DK. It has little effect otherwise. So:

Penalty = up to 10% damage taken from all sources at stage 4, based on your current health. This has most effect at full health and goes down as your health does.
Undeath = up to 20% damage reduction based on missing health below 50%, stage 4 passive.

Result is vamps live closer to death but it's harder to actually get them there, but in a more balanced way across the board.

While we're at it, we non roleplay people would appreciate a way to lock in the vamp stage....

Twig_Garlicshine

Contrary viewpoint:
Don't nerf vamp players.

Vamps get both skills + across the board passives bonuses added to their repertoire with little to no downside,
those who remain mortal do not.
"Your Fighters Guild abilities deal an additional 10% damage. This bonus doubles against player Vampires and Werewolves."
This only applies to fighters guild abilities which doesn't counter the bonus. Not even complicated math.
Vamp passive: "Reduces your damage taken by up to 30% based on your missing Health."

The damage bonus against those who betrayed their own kind and became cannibals should not be so limited and unbalanced.
Buff those who choose to remain mortal.

Could be a passive across the board increase damage against vamp players by mortals only.
Less fair, yet still better than the status quo of World of Vamps would be introduce a pot/food/drink buff that increases
damage by mortal players versus cannibal player monstrosities.

Note that this would have zero effect on PVE

Zastrix

JerBearESO wrote: »

They need to rethink the buff AND the flame damage penalty. Being specifically affected by flame may be roleplay healthy but not gameplay healthy, as it simply creates an advantage for DK. It has little effect otherwise. So:

Penalty = up to 10% damage taken from all sources at stage 4, based on your current health. This has most effect at full health and goes down as your health does.
Undeath = up to 20% damage reduction based on missing health below 50%, stage 4 passive.

Result is vamps live closer to death but it's harder to actually get them there, but in a more balanced way across the board.

While we're at it, we non roleplay people would appreciate a way to lock in the vamp stage....

10% damage from all sources is too much because not everything is PvP.

Twohothardware

They just need to tie the Undeath passive into playing an actual Vampire using Vampire skills.

They nerfed Major Protection to 10% damage reduction and yet have Undeath giving up to 30% damage reduction at low health.

Remathilis

Delete vampire and werewolf from the game. Make vampire a skin and werewolf a polymorph. They have nerfed them down to having one viable use outside of RP and the community is hellbent on getting rid of that too.

They are useless in group content, a liability in trials, and only useful in tanky PvP builds. If you nerf that, just make them cosmetic.

Urzigurumash

Remathilis wrote: »

Delete vampire and werewolf from the game. Make vampire a skin and werewolf a polymorph. They have nerfed them down to having one viable use outside of RP and the community is hellbent on getting rid of that too.

They are useless in group content, a liability in trials, and only useful in tanky PvP builds. If you nerf that, just make them cosmetic.

Seems you agree with PvPers: Vampire needs adjustments.

Alchimiste1

I think undeath should be cut in half to 15% max, and health recovery should be buffed a bit to better compete with it, so players can choose.

Zabagad

After reading all the input here, I hope that ZOS is going in this direction:
Reduces your damage taken by up to (x% for each vampire skill slotted) based on your missing Health.

They can start with x=5 (nothing can be abused) but I would go up to 8 (maybe even 10 is possible?)
So a real vamp build could be really fun to play in PvE and as I said: Until some ppl find a viable backbar (*1) build abuse.
So that x shouldn't be too high that PvE ppl can solo xyz or PvP ppl are unkillable....

(*1) And just to get sure @ZOS - don't do the new mechanic with "on either bar" for this passive then

StarOfElyon

If we should have learned anything by now, given all the people who have spoken up, it is that ZOS will never address this.

Remathilis

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Remathilis wrote: »

Delete vampire and werewolf from the game. Make vampire a skin and werewolf a polymorph. They have nerfed them down to having one viable use outside of RP and the community is hellbent on getting rid of that too.

They are useless in group content, a liability in trials, and only useful in tanky PvP builds. If you nerf that, just make them cosmetic.

Seems you agree with PvPers: Vampire needs adjustments.

I would gladly sacrifice Undeath for major buffs to most of the vampire skills. But that ain't happening so as far as I am concerned, turning it into a cosmetic fixes everyone's concerns.

Zastrix

Remathilis wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Remathilis wrote: »

Delete vampire and werewolf from the game. Make vampire a skin and werewolf a polymorph. They have nerfed them down to having one viable use outside of RP and the community is hellbent on getting rid of that too.

They are useless in group content, a liability in trials, and only useful in tanky PvP builds. If you nerf that, just make them cosmetic.

Seems you agree with PvPers: Vampire needs adjustments.

I would gladly sacrifice Undeath for major buffs to most of the vampire skills. But that ain't happening so as far as I am concerned, turning it into a cosmetic fixes everyone's concerns.

Naw, the vampire mist form is super cool to use, don't just make it a cosmetic. Undeath can be nerfed if they give something in return, like mag recovery dependent on your vampire stage.

Turtle_Bot

The issue seems to be a lack of variety, ever since battle spirit was changed to reduce health recovery by 50%, undeath became the only way to add strong unique defense to a build.

I'd like to see a couple of changes made.

1. nerf undeath to 20% (down from 30%).
2. reduce the reduction to health recovery by battle spirit to -25% (down from -50%)

or whatever numbers would balance out nicely for these 2 changes.

This reduces the potency of undeath while keeping it as a good defensive option, but most importantly, it provides a different way to add defense to a build by allowing players to focus on health recovery instead of only having undeath.

Of course the nerf to health recovery from being a vampire would have to remain as strong as it currently is to prevent a combination of the 2 from being ran and abused as would undeath being active at stage 3.

NuarBlack

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I would give undeath the pale order treatment instead of what it is today. Remove all outside sources of healing, but grant a heal based on damage done. I think something like this works thematically and promotes more of a lone wolf play style for vampires, at the cost of benefitting from cross heals in group pvp.

This would be the simplest fix as it would most closely mimic the original intent of the trade-off, lower passive healing for more Damage Reduction. I don't think it would even be too far to tie it to slotted skills either, especially the heal based on damage. Could provide a trade-off, keep your bar space but lose out on heals like Vamps used to lose out on troll king or use bar slots to compensate.

Zastrix

NuarBlack wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I would give undeath the pale order treatment instead of what it is today. Remove all outside sources of healing, but grant a heal based on damage done. I think something like this works thematically and promotes more of a lone wolf play style for vampires, at the cost of benefitting from cross heals in group pvp.

This would be the simplest fix as it would most closely mimic the original intent of the trade-off, lower passive healing for more Damage Reduction. I don't think it would even be too far to tie it to slotted skills either, especially the heal based on damage. Could provide a trade-off, keep your bar space but lose out on heals like Vamps used to lose out on troll king or use bar slots to compensate.

Not - everything - is - pvp.

Twig_Garlicshine

Not - everything - would - have - an - effect - on - pve.

There have been many changes suggested which would have zero effect on pve,
and your response to -all of them- has been
"not everything is pvp".

This gives the impression that your real problem is it would have an effect on you in pvp.

Quethrosar

i do not pvp, leave vampire alone.

Zastrix

Fkey wrote: »

Not - everything - would - have - an - effect - on - pve.

There have been many changes suggested which would have zero effect on pve,
and your response to -all of them- has been
"not everything is pvp".

This gives the impression that your real problem is it would have an effect on you in pvp.

What do you mean no effect in PvE?

The comments I responded to said:
* Remove Vampirism altogether, only make it a skin
* Change the 10% flame damage taken to 10% damage in general taken (which affects PvE)
* Incease non-player fire damage sources (i.e. PvE sources)
* Remove all outside sources of healing meaning you can't do any form of PvE content which isn't a normal dungeon

There was also one which did say to reduce undeath to 20% where I did responde to also buff another aspect of being a vamp, either a skill or something.

I only respond to the worst of the comments which do have an effect in PvE. And I don't PvP anymore because the community is one of the worst ones I ever saw in a game with broken builds which don't make it fun at all unless you cheeze it make it bad for everyone else.

Edit:

The most of the ones I did not respond to were genuinely okay so there was no need to call it out.

Twohothardware

Just reducing Undeath to 20% and moving it to Stage 4 would be simple solutions.

Twig_Garlicshine

Zastrix wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

Not - everything - would - have - an - effect - on - pve.

There have been many changes suggested which would have zero effect on pve,
and your response to -all of them- has been
"not everything is pvp".

This gives the impression that your real problem is it would have an effect on you in pvp.

What do you mean no effect in PvE?

The comments I responded to said:
* Remove Vampirism altogether, only make it a skin
* Change the 10% flame damage taken to 10% damage in general taken (which affects PvE)
* Incease non-player fire damage sources (i.e. PvE sources)
* Remove all outside sources of healing meaning you can't do any form of PvE content which isn't a normal dungeon

There was also one which did say to reduce undeath to 20% where I did responde to also buff another aspect of being a vamp, either a skill or something.

I only respond to the worst of the comments which do have an effect in PvE. And I don't PvP anymore because the community is one of the worst ones I ever saw in a game with broken builds which don't make it fun at all unless you cheeze it make it bad for everyone else.

Edit:

The most of the ones I did not respond to were genuinely okay so there was no need to call it out.

I understand.
PvP changes do not have to affect PvE.
There is always an alternative.
BTW I dislike nerfs and would prefer buffing something else, and suggested it.
Have a good one.

MindOfTheSwarm

Maybe the weaknesses the Vampire have could be increased to offset it. Like 10% additional damage taken from Status effects for each Vampire Stage. Status effect builds are rare in PvP and this might increase the attractiveness of such builds.

JerBearESO

Could just make undeath vs monsters and let it die as far as PvP is concerned without hurting PvE players

StaticWave

While we’re at it, please make health recovery not a dead stat.