Undeath Passive for Vampire needs removed/changed

Jazraena

Ultimately, it's all just half-assed bandaid solutions.

Make vampirism a skill line that provides one-off alternative skill options and a dedicated different playstyle if you really invest into it, but do not give it passives that reward or punish you merely for being a vampire. Yes, that also means dropping the fighter's guild bonuses or the fire damage weakness.

Do not give it must-have rewards that need to be countered by weaknesses. Those will never universally work out and were a capitally bad idea.

Panderbander

Jazraena wrote: »

Ultimately, it's all just half-assed bandaid solutions.

Make vampirism a skill line that provides one-off alternative skill options and a dedicated different playstyle if you really invest into it, but do not give it passives that reward or punish you merely for being a vampire. Yes, that also means dropping the fighter's guild bonuses or the fire damage weakness.

Do not give it must-have rewards that need to be countered by weaknesses. Those will never universally work out and were a capitally bad idea.

If we drop the vamp weaknesses then werewolf needs to lose its poison weakness. We already give up enough by losing 95% of our passives, our back bar, and any choice of skills.

Begun27

Literally you are going to *** every PVE build because of PVP, and if you move to stage 4 it won't matter people will still use it.
Making it a slot ability you are just gonna make it useless also, no one will give up a skill for it, neither tanks on PVE nor people in PVP.

Lumenn

Change skilled tracker to 400-500% to PLAYER vamp and werewolf? Vamp would still be useful against a lot of players but if you run across that Hunter you're gonna hurt. And wouldn't affect PVE any. The only issue I see is it sets up a nb/cloak issue where you'd have to slot a skill for a specific gameplay and some don't like that idea.

Twohothardware

Begun27 wrote: »

Literally you are going to *** every PVE build because of PVP, and if you move to stage 4 it won't matter people will still use it.
Making it a slot ability you are just gonna make it useless also, no one will give up a skill for it, neither tanks on PVE nor people in PVP.

If Vampire is necessary for tanking in PvE then that's even more reason it needs to be looked at. Vampirism should be more of a roleplay skill line instead of a necessity just for one passive.

Zastrix

Twohothardware wrote: »

Begun27 wrote: »

Literally you are going to *** every PVE build because of PVP, and if you move to stage 4 it won't matter people will still use it.
Making it a slot ability you are just gonna make it useless also, no one will give up a skill for it, neither tanks on PVE nor people in PVP.

If Vampire is necessary for tanking in PvE then that's even more reason it needs to be looked at. Vampirism should be more of a roleplay skill line instead of a necessity just for one passive.

It isn't necessary in tanking for PvE because of the skill cost and the fire damage increase. It is only RP-wise but it still majorly sucks in PvE. PvE has way longer fights and the 10-12% cost increase is a LOT (and the 10% fire damage increase), because you can have constant fights lasting 5-10 minutes.

Let's say a fight is 7.5 minutes, that's 450 seconds and with a factor of 0.8 that's 360 skills cast, with the vampire cost increase that's the same as if 403.2 skills were cast and impossible to sustain if you don't have healers running SoB and Orbs/Shards. For tanks it's even harder.

Weckless

Zastrix wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Begun27 wrote: »

Literally you are going to *** every PVE build because of PVP, and if you move to stage 4 it won't matter people will still use it.
Making it a slot ability you are just gonna make it useless also, no one will give up a skill for it, neither tanks on PVE nor people in PVP.

If Vampire is necessary for tanking in PvE then that's even more reason it needs to be looked at. Vampirism should be more of a roleplay skill line instead of a necessity just for one passive.

It isn't necessary in tanking for PvE because of the skill cost and the fire damage increase. It is only RP-wise but it still majorly sucks in PvE. PvE has way longer fights and the 10-12% cost increase is a LOT (and the 10% fire damage increase), because you can have constant fights lasting 5-10 minutes.

Let's say a fight is 7.5 minutes, that's 450 seconds and with a factor of 0.8 that's 360 skills cast, with the vampire cost increase that's the same as if 403.2 skills were cast and impossible to sustain if you don't have healers running SoB and Orbs/Shards. For tanks it's even harder.

Why is it 360 shouldnt it still be 450 lol? You can light attack 562 timea in 450 seconds and use 450 skills if you weave perfectly

emilyhyoyeon

Urzigurumash wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd rather not see vampirism lose the fire damage debuff without getting something lore-wise to make up for it. Fire/sun damage is a big part of them.

Maybe extra fire damage taken only counts from fire damage caused by non-players, and then rebalance the other numbers around that.

Give back magicka regen as vampires are master of the arcane mostly.

You mean give it to them in general or as a replacement for changing one of their current buffs/debuffs?

The only thing that worries me about something like magicka regen is that I don't think vampirism should be something tempting to have unless you want your character to actually play as a vampire. Something like regen is desirable, especially in PVP, not so much PVE anymore afaik.

Before the Greymoor rework, vampirism gave magicka and stamina regen and being a vampire was required (in terms of meta), especially for tanks. That was so meh.

I feel like this issue can be avoided if they tie the passives to how many skills slotted, like Mages and Fighters Guild. Like 2% mag and stam regen per skill slotted. If Undeath stays, X% damage reduction under whatever missing HP per skill slotted. Etc etc. Might cause balancing issues somewhere else though, idk.
But this way, you get vampire benefits when playing as a vampire. This should probably apply to the debuffs as well, with only flat tiny percentage debuffs at stage 1 with no skills slotted. ex. 2% fire damage taken at stage 1 with no skills slotted


I have one character who's a vampire and she stays at stage 1 for rp reasons. I want her to have some effects of being one. It was sad enough when they reversed feeding with the rework.

As to the comment about old Vamp passives being indispensable for Tanks, I assume you are right about PvE but this was conspicuously not true in PvP largely because for quite some time the strongest "Troll Tank" was, as I alluded to in my prior comment, Trollking plus Orgnum's (plus either Beekeeper, Permafrost, or Green Pact) (and prior to this last rework to Mistform, perma-Mist was by far the strongest Troll Tank in PvP).

Yeah my comment was unclear, I started talking about PVE, then mentioned PVP, then went back to PVE without saying.

I mean to say that back in the day vamp was meta for PVE, both tanks and DDs, but especially tanks. The free regen on mag and stam was especially effective back then when sustain wasn't super free. I offtanked vHOF HM back in 2018 and I had to wear Hircine, even (for the stam DDs).

I mentioned PVP meaning to say I just assume a regen passive for PVP would always be desirable because I feel like you could never have too much free regen in PVP.



But yeah basically I don't want vampirism to be what it was back then where it has X passive that's just simply meta. IMO vampirism should be what you take when you're rping, not what you take when you're not rping (playing meta).

Jazraena

Panderbander wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Ultimately, it's all just half-assed bandaid solutions.

Make vampirism a skill line that provides one-off alternative skill options and a dedicated different playstyle if you really invest into it, but do not give it passives that reward or punish you merely for being a vampire. Yes, that also means dropping the fighter's guild bonuses or the fire damage weakness.

Do not give it must-have rewards that need to be countered by weaknesses. Those will never universally work out and were a capitally bad idea.

If we drop the vamp weaknesses then werewolf needs to lose its poison weakness. We already give up enough by losing 95% of our passives, our back bar, and any choice of skills.

Werewolves have their own issues to look at, and reasonings akin to 'If you change vampires, you must change werewolves' do both a disservice.

Zastrix

Weckless wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Begun27 wrote: »

Literally you are going to *** every PVE build because of PVP, and if you move to stage 4 it won't matter people will still use it.
Making it a slot ability you are just gonna make it useless also, no one will give up a skill for it, neither tanks on PVE nor people in PVP.

If Vampire is necessary for tanking in PvE then that's even more reason it needs to be looked at. Vampirism should be more of a roleplay skill line instead of a necessity just for one passive.

It isn't necessary in tanking for PvE because of the skill cost and the fire damage increase. It is only RP-wise but it still majorly sucks in PvE. PvE has way longer fights and the 10-12% cost increase is a LOT (and the 10% fire damage increase), because you can have constant fights lasting 5-10 minutes.

Let's say a fight is 7.5 minutes, that's 450 seconds and with a factor of 0.8 that's 360 skills cast, with the vampire cost increase that's the same as if 403.2 skills were cast and impossible to sustain if you don't have healers running SoB and Orbs/Shards. For tanks it's even harder.

Why is it 360 shouldnt it still be 450 lol? You can light attack 562 timea in 450 seconds and use 450 skills if you weave perfectly

Mostly due to mechanics as most PvE situations have moving targets or target swaping + mechanics, just added it for a bit of realism.

Panderbander

Jazraena wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Ultimately, it's all just half-assed bandaid solutions.

Make vampirism a skill line that provides one-off alternative skill options and a dedicated different playstyle if you really invest into it, but do not give it passives that reward or punish you merely for being a vampire. Yes, that also means dropping the fighter's guild bonuses or the fire damage weakness.

Do not give it must-have rewards that need to be countered by weaknesses. Those will never universally work out and were a capitally bad idea.

If we drop the vamp weaknesses then werewolf needs to lose its poison weakness. We already give up enough by losing 95% of our passives, our back bar, and any choice of skills.

Werewolves have their own issues to look at, and reasonings akin to 'If you change vampires, you must change werewolves' do both a disservice.

They are two sides to the same coin, in that one will lock out the other. It is a valid thing to suggest that if changes are made to one the other should be adjusted to ensure it stays in line with the power of its counterpart.

Jazraena

You're not talking about balance. You're talking about extremely specific matters that may or may not apply for the other. Again, both should be looked at as a whole, and changes made from that POV, not from 'Well they changed it for vampires!'.

Vampires don't need to be balanced against werewolves pound for pound. Their entirety needs to be, and not just against werewolves but rather against everyone.

Now, from a design POV I'm absolutely equally opposed to extra damage to werewolves from Poison/FG skills just like with vampires. It's a Pandora's Box and should have never happened, but it's not really the topic in here.

IncultaWolf

Easiest solution would be requiring a vampire ability be slotted to benefit from the passive, changing it to stage 4 would solve nothing, everyone would just start playing stage 4, because that's just how strong it is in pvp. Needs more downsides, like maybe up the cost increase to normal abilities, or just changing it to major protection when you drop below 30% health. There's a lot of ways they could balance it right now.

Jazraena

'Downsides' will never be a solution. That'll just ping pong it back and forth between must-have and useless, or make it situationally OP and terrible in others.

mikeb16_ESO41

May I be so bold as to cut in here and with an inquiry. Do you not research on what's available. To match what you think you'll need and want, when building your character? Works for me.

My Vamp is a Dark Elf and one of their 'passives' is 'Resist Flames'. However, why a Dark Elf would need that ability is anyone's guess. Perhaps it's ESO's way of keeping us on our toes, when researching a new character? But if this thread is anything to go by, it's not working. Just sayin'

exoib

JerBearESO wrote: »

Could just make undeath vs monsters and let it die as far as PvP is concerned without hurting PvE players

Agree, that'll be the best solution and to balance make fighter's guild passives only do extra damage to monsters (vamps and werewolves) as well. It's one thing to actually use the vamp skills like Elusive mist to make up for lack of expedition in some classes etc. But majority of builds just utilize one passive (Undeath). In a healthy game people shouldn't invest in skill lines only for 1 passive. I understand people can roleplay with the other passives and what not, the ultimate is strong as well, but the Perfect Scion morph needs more utility other than just removing all penalties of being a vamp considering it lasts too short for the whopping cost of the ultimate, the Blood Scion morph always is the better choice for both PvP and PvE.

Lastly people are sick of the tank meta in PvP. It swayed countless people I know to quit PvP, because people don't die in execute, it also makes execute skills redundant, the Undeath passive is extremely unhealthy for the balance of PvP. I'm sorry to say it's not fun at all.

Lumenn

Dunno, I still like the idea of upping Skilled Tracker dmg to players to a RIDICULOUS level. Vamps could still rely on undeath, but one "Hunter" with silver shards could absolutely melt you in seconds, as it should be. Gives it a bit of a RP kick, useful unless someone's using fighter guild skills, and doesn't affect PVE any.

Panderbander

Lumenn wrote: »

Dunno, I still like the idea of upping Skilled Tracker dmg to players to a RIDICULOUS level. Vamps could still rely on undeath, but one "Hunter" with silver shards could absolutely melt you in seconds, as it should be. Gives it a bit of a RP kick, useful unless someone's using fighter guild skills, and doesn't affect PVE any.

This would quite literally make both vampire and werewolf unplayable.

Lumenn

Panderbander wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Dunno, I still like the idea of upping Skilled Tracker dmg to players to a RIDICULOUS level. Vamps could still rely on undeath, but one "Hunter" with silver shards could absolutely melt you in seconds, as it should be. Gives it a bit of a RP kick, useful unless someone's using fighter guild skills, and doesn't affect PVE any.

This would quite literally make both vampire and werewolf unplayable.

Actually, if someone wants to play a vamp or ww, then own it and die to the fighter guild. If you're just using it to hide behind a passive, then it's still useful, until someone with the counter appears. Either way, the undeath issue has a solution.

Panderbander

Lumenn wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Dunno, I still like the idea of upping Skilled Tracker dmg to players to a RIDICULOUS level. Vamps could still rely on undeath, but one "Hunter" with silver shards could absolutely melt you in seconds, as it should be. Gives it a bit of a RP kick, useful unless someone's using fighter guild skills, and doesn't affect PVE any.

This would quite literally make both vampire and werewolf unplayable.

Actually, if someone wants to play a vamp or ww, then own it and die to the fighter guild. If you're just using it to hide behind a passive, then it's still useful, until someone with the counter appears. Either way, the undeath issue has a solution.

That's not a viable solution in any way. Vampire is a meme used for a passive and 2-3 abilities, and werewolf is so easily killed already that the more common term for it is "free AP" (while cutting you off from your entire class). Roleplay has no role in balancing PvP, and I say that as a PVPer that sometimes roleplays.

Lumenn

Panderbander wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Dunno, I still like the idea of upping Skilled Tracker dmg to players to a RIDICULOUS level. Vamps could still rely on undeath, but one "Hunter" with silver shards could absolutely melt you in seconds, as it should be. Gives it a bit of a RP kick, useful unless someone's using fighter guild skills, and doesn't affect PVE any.

This would quite literally make both vampire and werewolf unplayable.

Actually, if someone wants to play a vamp or ww, then own it and die to the fighter guild. If you're just using it to hide behind a passive, then it's still useful, until someone with the counter appears. Either way, the undeath issue has a solution.

That's not a viable solution in any way. Vampire is a meme used for a passive and 2-3 abilities, and werewolf is so easily killed already that the more common term for it is "free AP" (while cutting you off from your entire class). Roleplay has no role in balancing PvP, and I say that as a PVPer that sometimes roleplays.

/Shrug ok then, just go with many of the other solutions and nerf it to the ground, it'll be easier for zos anyway, and seeing as they only let a crutch ride for so long, it'll come. At least my suggestion had some play to it, you could still use it unless someone's using shards, and it didn't kill pve as well.

I never did said rp should be instrumental in balancing, I said it gives it a bit of a kick, but it sure can explain the changes and make it fun instead of "take it and like it". The whole game is RP, you are literally roleplaying a faction in an imaginary war trying to kill the enemy yes? Or a 4 man team against 8 other enemy players dumped in an arena. Why even be a vamp if not RP? Unless it's passive is SO op it's necessary that is...

Twohothardware

Would be nice to get a comment from a dev on how they feel about the current usage of vampire.

HertoginJanneke

We don't need another nerf just becaust PvP wants it.

Jazraena

Hence redesign. One that actually works this time, instead of this 'mostly useless but this here in this situation is OP' hogwash the last one brought.

Panderbander

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

Tyrant_Tim

Panderbander wrote: »

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

You don’t in PvE endgame, it’s useless because at 33k resistance, you don’t have survivability problems on any tank, with any class.

That being said, if people enjoy it for their roleplay, that’s something different entirely.

the1andonlyskwex

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

You don’t in PvE endgame, it’s useless because at 33k resistance, you don’t have survivability problems on any tank, with any class.

That being said, if people enjoy it for their roleplay, that’s something different entirely.

If it's just for roleplay, why do so many people seem to be against any mechanical changes for "PvE reasons"? It must be good for something (unless we just have people here who oppose any PvP balance changes because of PTSD from past changes or something).

Tyrant_Tim

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

You don’t in PvE endgame, it’s useless because at 33k resistance, you don’t have survivability problems on any tank, with any class.

That being said, if people enjoy it for their roleplay, that’s something different entirely.

“If it's just for roleplay…”

That’s just it, ESO has role-play in its genre so it’s incredibly difficult to write off role-play as a variable that goes into any changes of the game.

That passive is part of their undying vampire fantasy, so until ZOS gives a better more unique alternative to fulfill it, you’re going to see the same players defend Undeath.

Jazraena

Panderbander wrote: »

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

Ironically with the vampire spammable it's a sustain boost for mine, but it's not exactly a high end build. More fun for dungeons and soloing.

The entire 'Can't get healed' bit is terribly annoying for the healer though.

Jazraena

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

You don’t in PvE endgame, it’s useless because at 33k resistance, you don’t have survivability problems on any tank, with any class.

That being said, if people enjoy it for their roleplay, that’s something different entirely.

“If it's just for roleplay…”

That’s just it, ESO has role-play in its genre so it’s incredibly difficult to write off role-play as a variable that goes into any changes of the game.

That passive is part of their undying vampire fantasy, so until ZOS gives a better more unique alternative to fulfill it, you’re going to see the same players defend Undeath.

I love my thematically fitting RP concepts, but if you can't balance a concept properly I'd suggest it probably shouldn't be in a game that requires balance.