Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

ShadowProc

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

Nb is the most god tier class in this game. There are no facts to discuss here

I like your post before this one but disagree on them being the best. Dk and maybe Warden. Then NB.

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

The people agreeing with you are the ppl defending Cloak. [snip] The ppl against Cloak have left or agreed with other comments.

I mean, you still haven’t posted anything on your end to back up your argument. I don’t see any “facts” on your end, truthfully.

Again your speculating. [snip]

I just want to see clips of NB mains showing how they’re constantly being pulled out of stealth and dying because of that.

I mean after all, that WAS one of the arguments at the beginning of the thread. “If you can’t kill a NB out of Cloak, that’s a l2p issue”. I’m not talking about squishy gankers. Show everyone how easy it is to kill a decently built NB that also uses Cloak.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

I would rank nb above them all.

But I do not agree cloak is the reason or should be touched.

That's fair and maybe a better starting point.

Ok once again to get a better idea of where you are coming from in that you're saying you can be objective what would you be willing to lose on NB to make things more fair if anything?

Again I'll be clear here and say that I don't see a right or wrong answer here. I'm just trying to understand from your point what might be a more acceptable way to bring NB more in line with other classes since ZOS has yet to try to really bring those classes up?

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

The people agreeing with you are the ppl defending Cloak. [snip] The ppl against Cloak have left or agreed with other comments.

I mean, you still haven’t posted anything on your end to back up your argument. I don’t see any “facts” on your end, truthfully.

Again your speculating. [snip]

I just want to see clips of NB mains showing how they’re constantly being pulled out of stealth and dying because of that.

I mean after all, that WAS one of the arguments at the beginning of the thread. “If you can’t kill a NB out of Cloak, that’s a l2p issue”. I’m not talking about squishy gankers. Show everyone how easy it is to kill a decently built NB that also uses Cloak.

Almost reasonable request. You can't cherry pick one playstyle though. Gankers have a right to have fun too. There are more ways to play classes than one.

When I played brawler blade I very rarely used cloak anyways. Focused on shadow to dodge and weave.

So not really sure why you worried about cloak on them. I used it to start the combo for gauranteed crit like most.

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

The people agreeing with you are the ppl defending Cloak. I mean, sure lol? The ppl against Cloak have left or agreed with other comments.

I mean, you still haven’t posted anything on your end to back up your argument. I don’t see any “facts” on your end, truthfully.

Again your speculating.[snip]

And you still have not posted anything to prove a nerf to cloak is warranted.

You have posted enough that a sorc buff is warranted. I agree with that at least.

[edited quote]

I remember showing a clip of my own gameplay on a tanky brawlerblade with Cloak. My skills were messed up, but Cloak allowed me to escape several sticky moments in that fight.

You have to understand that in that exact fight, Streak would not have saved me as much because I would still be taking damage even if I had created distance. Cloak allowed me to have several seconds of breathing room to heal up. Even if it got broken several times, I just waited until I could use it again because I was tanky.

I could absolutely just spam Cloak 3 times in a row and never leave stealth in that fight and still have a lot of magicka left. At least give it a slight ramping cost discourage that.

PhoenixGrey

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

The people agreeing with you are the ppl defending Cloak. [snip] The ppl against Cloak have left or agreed with other comments.

I mean, you still haven’t posted anything on your end to back up your argument. I don’t see any “facts” on your end, truthfully.

Again your speculating. [snip]

I just want to see clips of NB mains showing how they’re constantly being pulled out of stealth and dying because of that.

I mean after all, that WAS one of the arguments at the beginning of the thread. “If you can’t kill a NB out of Cloak, that’s a l2p issue”. I’m not talking about squishy gankers. Show everyone how easy it is to kill a decently built NB that also uses Cloak.

Almost reasonable request. You can't cherry pick one playstyle though. Gankers have a right to have fun too. There are more ways to play classes than one.

When I played brawler blade I very rarely used cloak anyways. Focused on shadow to dodge and weave.

So not really sure why you worried about cloak on them. I used it to start the combo for hauranteed crit like most.

[snip]

Cloak is hands down the best skill in the game. Why will you ever not run cloak and gimp yourself ?

A nb running cloak will butcher the nb playing without cloak every single time. If you can’t you just don’t know how to use cloak.

[edited for rude/insulting comment]

PhoenixGrey

ShadowProc wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

Nb is the most god tier class in this game. There are no facts to discuss here

I like your post before this one but disagree on them being the best. Dk and maybe Warden. Then NB.

Dk and warden do not have a “I win everything button” in their toolkit

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

[snip]

Cloak is hands down the best skill in the game. Why will you ever not run cloak and gimp yourself ?

A nb running cloak will butcher the nb playing without cloak every single time. If you can’t you just don’t know how to use cloak.

Wow there's just fyi l so much to unpack here but yeah basically hard no.

Shade is much stronger but requires pre setup which a lot of people can't easily get the hang of.

But that's just one case where a non cloak blade can take on a cloak blade. There's also the sometimes underused block. Block changes a fight all the way around when you have someone that's good at doing it at just the right time. Cloak all you want and if they block and counter you might find yourself in trouble. Honestly it could go many ways but short story, some of the best blades I fought didn't need cloak at all. Play style is a huge factor here btw.

[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

Nb is the most god tier class in this game. There are no facts to discuss here

I like your post before this one but disagree on them being the best. Dk and maybe Warden. Then NB.

Dk and warden do not have a “I win everything button” in their toolkit

Warden I don't really have a comment on but Dk has an ult that says yeah forget about your armor while also not doing all that much damage to me, one of the best ccs in the game, a beast mode heal, native block enhancement, recovery built into the ultimate, etc.

I'll say it another way, Dk is I think stronger because anyone can pick it up and become easily stronger. NB is stronger when and if used correctly.

It's situational at times but I'd still give Dk the nod all together.

DrNukenstein

@StaticWave

Here is my submission for the cloak is bad challenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBL5e1F-tSA

Jierdanit

DrNukenstein wrote: »

@StaticWave

Here is my submission for the cloak is bad challenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBL5e1F-tSA

What exactly is the point there?

That you died 5 times on a 25k hp ganker build that every other class would have had at least twice as many deaths on?

DrNukenstein

Jierdanit wrote: »

What exactly is the point there?

That you died 5 times on a 25k hp ganker build that every other class would have had at least twice as many on?

That cloak is powerful and iconic, but very counterable. It is entirely shut down when focused by multiple people, and the counters which also provide Major Savagery while slotted work as advertised. I was able to catch Nightblades just by walking near their last known location with camo hunter up.

Detect skills aren't even the only reliable counters. A templar was consistently able to shut me down with their class skills, in fact it was only that templar that was doing it. Templars aren't the only gifted ones in that regard either, just the most prominent example in this content and are potentially the best at it.

It's under 30k health, but it still has 25k resistances, aoe damage mitigation, vamp 3, and respectable crit resist. A build focused on playing around cloak (like mine very much is) is still punishable with near/benchmark defenses even with the "best defensive skill in the game"

Now I was not using my shade. Shade when used before the go is like the best life insurance mag can buy. But without that extra skill used up to 20 seconds in advance, invisibility is not invincibility.

Jierdanit

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

What exactly is the point there?

That you died 5 times on a 25k hp ganker build that every other class would have had at least twice as many on?

That cloak is powerful and iconic, but very counterable. It is entirely shut down when focused by multiple people, and the counters which also provide Major Savagery while slotted work as advertised. I was able to catch Nightblades just by walking near their last known location with camo hunter up.

Detect skills aren't even the only reliable counters. A templar was consistently able to shut me down with their class skills, in fact it was only that templar that was doing it. Templars aren't the only gifted ones in that regard either, just the most prominent example in this content and are potentially the best at it.

It's under 30k health, but it still has 25k resistances, aoe damage mitigation, vamp 3, and respectable crit resist. A build focused on playing around cloak (like mine very much is) is still punishable with near/benchmark defenses even with the "best defensive skill in the game"

Now I was not using my shade. Shade when used before the go is like the best life insurance mag can buy. But without that extra skill used up to 20 seconds in advance, invisibility is not invincibility.

And invisibility is not supposed to be invincibility.

The point, that I'm pretty sure lots of others already made in this thread, is that it's only that effective to shut cloak down against a build with defenses as weak as yours.
On the other hand it's quite easy to get 30-35k hp with more resists than you on NB. Those builds are already going to be tanky anyways and still having cloak on top of that.

It's true that cloak isn't a great defense while you're in the middle of a fight, but it's easy enough to still get out of those situations and then use cloak to effectively completely end the fight.
Either in 1v1 simply CC your opponent and cloak away or in 1vX do an age CC or use image to get out and then cloak.
With cloak you can have a fight where you are basically dead, get out and just cloak away until you're in a position where you're safe.
On any other class you do not have that option and would mostly just die in that Situation.
Yes Streak offers similar things, but you can always see the sorc in Streak and just chase after them, which isn't even that hard anymore cause everyone is able to get super fast now.

A ramping cost on cloak would barely hurt players who use cloak occasionally to get a little breathing room in fights, but would make it way more difficult to use it in a way that just stops fights and doesn't intend to start them again, unless you completely restart it.

DrNukenstein

The brawlers spread their smaller mag pool thinner. The "meta" build posted earlier in the thread even biases towards stam while having a mag bias on skills slotted. Cloak as it is currently is an expensive skill to use.

That build has to divide up about 18k mag between concealed weapon, blur, path, offering, spec bow, and potentially cloak. Having 4k mag minimum when you need it for that peel and cloak would take a degree of forethought and/or a few more sources of mag sustain than anyone would want to take. Peel and cloak would not inherently be a better idea than block and heal for that build, but would be a more expensive decision that can be immediately shut down. Add in a ramping cost to cloak, and it's probably not worth it for the brawlers that are built to hang out in a fight since they can just heal and keep going for less opportunity cost and a higher chance of success.

Squishy gankers on the other hand, which are endangered and lets not pretend we don't enjoy catching them, would be put out of business by a ramping cost cooldown longer than cloak duration. This is because cloak is more important for delivering the damage than it is for staying alive on those builds. A 4 second ramping cost CD like streak/mist would mean it can no longer be used for the approach without committing your entire mag pool to it.

ShadowProc

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

Nb is the most god tier class in this game. There are no facts to discuss here

I like your post before this one but disagree on them being the best. Dk and maybe Warden. Then NB.

Dk and warden do not have a “I win everything button” in their toolkit

Alright dude. I tried to have a discussion with you. Done with you. Sorry. Cloak is not a I win button.

Corrosive Armor is.

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

[snip]

Cloak is hands down the best skill in the game. Why will you ever not run cloak and gimp yourself ?

A nb running cloak will butcher the nb playing without cloak every single time. If you can’t you just don’t know how to use cloak.

Wow there's just fyi l so much to unpack here but yeah basically hard no.

Shade is much stronger but requires pre setup which a lot of people can't easily get the hang of.

But that's just one case where a non cloak blade can take on a cloak blade. There's also the sometimes underused block. Block changes a fight all the way around when you have someone that's good at doing it at just the right time. Cloak all you want and if they block and counter you might find yourself in trouble. Honestly it could go many ways but short story, some of the best blades I fought didn't need cloak at all. Play style is a huge factor here btw.

Agreed. His comment just shows they have little to no experience playing a nb at a decent level.

[edited to remove quote]

ShadowProc

Jierdanit wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

What exactly is the point there?

That you died 5 times on a 25k hp ganker build that every other class would have had at least twice as many on?

That cloak is powerful and iconic, but very counterable. It is entirely shut down when focused by multiple people, and the counters which also provide Major Savagery while slotted work as advertised. I was able to catch Nightblades just by walking near their last known location with camo hunter up.

Detect skills aren't even the only reliable counters. A templar was consistently able to shut me down with their class skills, in fact it was only that templar that was doing it. Templars aren't the only gifted ones in that regard either, just the most prominent example in this content and are potentially the best at it.

It's under 30k health, but it still has 25k resistances, aoe damage mitigation, vamp 3, and respectable crit resist. A build focused on playing around cloak (like mine very much is) is still punishable with near/benchmark defenses even with the "best defensive skill in the game"

Now I was not using my shade. Shade when used before the go is like the best life insurance mag can buy. But without that extra skill used up to 20 seconds in advance, invisibility is not invincibility.

And invisibility is not supposed to be invincibility.

The point, that I'm pretty sure lots of others already made in this thread, is that it's only that effective to shut cloak down against a build with defenses as weak as yours.
On the other hand it's quite easy to get 30-35k hp with more resists than you on NB. Those builds are already going to be tanky anyways and still having cloak on top of that.

It's true that cloak isn't a great defense while you're in the middle of a fight, but it's easy enough to still get out of those situations and then use cloak to effectively completely end the fight.
Either in 1v1 simply CC your opponent and cloak away or in 1vX do an age CC or use image to get out and then cloak.
With cloak you can have a fight where you are basically dead, get out and just cloak away until you're in a position where you're safe.
On any other class you do not have that option and would mostly just die in that Situation.
Yes Streak offers similar things, but you can always see the sorc in Streak and just chase after them, which isn't even that hard anymore cause everyone is able to get super fast now.

A ramping cost on cloak would barely hurt players who use cloak occasionally to get a little breathing room in fights, but would make it way more difficult to use it in a way that just stops fights and doesn't intend to start them again, unless you completely restart it.

Or 1 of the 50 counters is used. You all keep forgetting that part.

ZOS_Kraken

Greetings,

We know people will not always agree and many of you will share different opinions, but please remember that being rude to your fellow community members is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game.

Kaysha

Where is Myrael‘s post regarding cloak being more like a heal or shield spell? Removed? That was a really good comparison 😢

Jierdanit

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

What exactly is the point there?

That you died 5 times on a 25k hp ganker build that every other class would have had at least twice as many on?

That cloak is powerful and iconic, but very counterable. It is entirely shut down when focused by multiple people, and the counters which also provide Major Savagery while slotted work as advertised. I was able to catch Nightblades just by walking near their last known location with camo hunter up.

Detect skills aren't even the only reliable counters. A templar was consistently able to shut me down with their class skills, in fact it was only that templar that was doing it. Templars aren't the only gifted ones in that regard either, just the most prominent example in this content and are potentially the best at it.

It's under 30k health, but it still has 25k resistances, aoe damage mitigation, vamp 3, and respectable crit resist. A build focused on playing around cloak (like mine very much is) is still punishable with near/benchmark defenses even with the "best defensive skill in the game"

Now I was not using my shade. Shade when used before the go is like the best life insurance mag can buy. But without that extra skill used up to 20 seconds in advance, invisibility is not invincibility.

And invisibility is not supposed to be invincibility.

The point, that I'm pretty sure lots of others already made in this thread, is that it's only that effective to shut cloak down against a build with defenses as weak as yours.
On the other hand it's quite easy to get 30-35k hp with more resists than you on NB. Those builds are already going to be tanky anyways and still having cloak on top of that.

It's true that cloak isn't a great defense while you're in the middle of a fight, but it's easy enough to still get out of those situations and then use cloak to effectively completely end the fight.
Either in 1v1 simply CC your opponent and cloak away or in 1vX do an age CC or use image to get out and then cloak.
With cloak you can have a fight where you are basically dead, get out and just cloak away until you're in a position where you're safe.
On any other class you do not have that option and would mostly just die in that Situation.
Yes Streak offers similar things, but you can always see the sorc in Streak and just chase after them, which isn't even that hard anymore cause everyone is able to get super fast now.

A ramping cost on cloak would barely hurt players who use cloak occasionally to get a little breathing room in fights, but would make it way more difficult to use it in a way that just stops fights and doesn't intend to start them again, unless you completely restart it.

Or 1 of the 50 counters is used. You all keep forgetting that part.

Yes sure because it is totally valid that cloak is the 1 Skill in the game that needs a counter, that is not useful in any situation except against a NB using cloak.

Cloak is the only skill that forces you to either use a skill that has little to no other use or to waste a potion to find one NB.
That should already tell you enough about how strong that skill is.

DrNukenstein

Except the specific counters aren't the only counters. Any direct damage in the vicinity can break it, and there is a ton of that flying around. At no point in my cloak video were specific detect skills used by my opponents and there was no hunting that would suggest detect pots were being used. Yet quick use of one templars (relatively speaking) universally useful class skills would consistently shut down a get away, in fact they could even get me solo without a significant chase.

Other classes have similarly useful tools that counter stealth similarly while being very useful. They range from being a buff like Hurricane to being a conal dot that you wouldn't want to spam like dk breath. The thing I appreciated learning from focusing on the counterability of cloak in that game is that jabs is uniquely good for breaking cloak due to it's multi hit aoe nature, snare, and that it is an actual spammable that can be spammed with few if any effects that you wouldn't want refreshed early.

Jierdanit

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Except the specific counters aren't the only counters. Any direct damage in the vicinity can break it, and there is a ton of that flying around. At no point in my cloak video were specific detect skills used by my opponents and there was no hunting that would suggest detect pots were being used. Yet quick use of one templars (relatively speaking) universally useful class skills would consistently shut down a get away, in fact they could even get me solo without a significant chase.

Other classes have similarly useful tools that counter stealth similarly while being very useful. They range from being a buff like Hurricane to being a conal dot that you wouldn't want to spam like dk breath. The thing I appreciated learning from focusing on the counterability of cloak in that game is that jabs is uniquely good for breaking cloak due to it's multi hit aoe nature, snare, and that it is an actual spammable that can be spammed with few if any effects that you wouldn't want refreshed early.

Templar jabs are very good against nightblade as soon as the plar manages to catch you once.
However they are only that effective against you because you are very squishy and the templar can kill you before you can seriously manage to get out of range again.
Against a tankier nb that isn't exclusively relying on cloak for defense it wouldn't be nearly as effective.

Also aoe Abilities have limited use against cloak, they are useful if you are already in a fight with a nb, they use cloak and you basically immediately break it again with the aoe.
However if you are trying to find a NB that isn't very close to you already you're not going to have a good time with just aoes.
(Hurricane does not break cloak btw).

DrNukenstein

In the case of the tankier NB, they would have their cloak broken and would have been better off just fighting because then they would have 4k+ more mag to keep fighting with. It's not like cloak is the only way to make some space.

Something that's swirling around some sorcs seems to be breaking my cloak when they're on me. IDK what it is if it isn't hurricane. Bombards great at breaking cloak and punishing a get away too while being universally available.

If you're trying to find an NB that isn't very close and having a hard time. That's okay, it means that player made their trick work.

ShadowProc

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In the case of the tankier NB, they would have their cloak broken and would have been better off just fighting because then they would have 4k+ more mag to keep fighting with. It's not like cloak is the only way to make some space.

Something that's swirling around some sorcs seems to be breaking my cloak when they're on me. IDK what it is if it isn't hurricane. Bombards great at breaking cloak and punishing a get away too while being universally available.

If you're trying to find an NB that isn't very close and having a hard time. That's okay, it means that player made their trick work.

That's one of the problems though. They feel they should be able tokill everyone. It's okay to not kill each other. Wait if the engage and kill them. Don't "waste" the potion.

Jierdanit

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In the case of the tankier NB, they would have their cloak broken and would have been better off just fighting because then they would have 4k+ more mag to keep fighting with. It's not like cloak is the only way to make some space.

Something that's swirling around some sorcs seems to be breaking my cloak when they're on me. IDK what it is if it isn't hurricane. Bombards great at breaking cloak and punishing a get away too while being universally available.

If you're trying to find an NB that isn't very close and having a hard time. That's okay, it means that player made their trick work.

I'm pretty sure that Hurricane doesn't break cloak (which would make sense, since it's an aoe DoT and DoTs aren't supposed to break cloak), but I'm not 100% tbh.


Yes a tankier NB would have been better off not cloaking and using other defenses instead.

The problem is that you are trying to say that the skill is not broken, because you still die, while playing a build whose defense almost only relies on cloak with barely anything else.
Obviously the defense on something like that isn't going to be great. No build is going to be tanky if the entire defense is completely based around 1 skill.

The problem with cloak is that it is almost good enough to do that though. There is not a single other skill that can carry your defense as much as cloak can. People who would die a ton on most classes can play nb and be very hard (or at least very annoying) to kill just by using cloak.

ShadowProc wrote: »

That's one of the problems though. They feel they should be able tokill everyone. It's okay to not kill each other. Wait if the engage and kill them. Don't "waste" the potion.

It is absolutely okay to have a fight end without either side winning, the problem in ending it with cloak is that in most situations that fight is not going to be over for good. The NB is just going to get out of range and get their ressources back up and come back right after.
That basically always gives the advantage back to the NB, because they can decide when the fight starts again and the opponent can do nothing about that outside of hoping they're within detect pot range and hunting them (which only works if their potion is off cooldown).

ShadowProc

Jierdanit wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In the case of the tankier NB, they would have their cloak broken and would have been better off just fighting because then they would have 4k+ more mag to keep fighting with. It's not like cloak is the only way to make some space.

Something that's swirling around some sorcs seems to be breaking my cloak when they're on me. IDK what it is if it isn't hurricane. Bombards great at breaking cloak and punishing a get away too while being universally available.

If you're trying to find an NB that isn't very close and having a hard time. That's okay, it means that player made their trick work.

I'm pretty sure that Hurricane doesn't break cloak (which would make sense, since it's an aoe DoT and DoTs aren't supposed to break cloak), but I'm not 100% tbh.


Yes a tankier NB would have been better off not cloaking and using other defenses instead.

The problem is that you are trying to say that the skill is not broken, because you still die, while playing a build whose defense almost only relies on cloak with barely anything else.
Obviously the defense on something like that isn't going to be great. No build is going to be tanky if the entire defense is completely based around 1 skill.

The problem with cloak is that it is almost good enough to do that though. There is not a single other skill that can carry your defense as much as cloak can. People who would die a ton on most classes can play nb and be very hard (or at least very annoying) to kill just by using cloak.

ShadowProc wrote: »

That's one of the problems though. They feel they should be able tokill everyone. It's okay to not kill each other. Wait if the engage and kill them. Don't "waste" the potion.

It is absolutely okay to have a fight end without either side winning, the problem in ending it with cloak is that in most situations that fight is not going to be over for good. The NB is just going to get out of range and get their ressources back up and come back right after.
That basically always gives the advantage back to the NB, because they can decide when the fight starts again and the opponent can do nothing about that outside of hoping they're within detect pot range and hunting them (which only works if their potion is off cooldown).

Yes i agree. Guess what that's called? It's the rogue class. Some players like that.

More stuff gets unecessarily nerfed the more players that leave.

PhoenixGrey

Bushido2513 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

[snip]

Cloak is hands down the best skill in the game. Why will you ever not run cloak and gimp yourself ?

A nb running cloak will butcher the nb playing without cloak every single time. If you can’t you just don’t know how to use cloak.

Wow there's just fyi l so much to unpack here but yeah basically hard no.

Shade is much stronger but requires pre setup which a lot of people can't easily get the hang of.

But that's just one case where a non cloak blade can take on a cloak blade. There's also the sometimes underused block. Block changes a fight all the way around when you have someone that's good at doing it at just the right time. Cloak all you want and if they block and counter you might find yourself in trouble. Honestly it could go many ways but short story, some of the best blades I fought didn't need cloak at all. Play style is a huge factor here btw.

a cloak blade will use cloak and shade. That is understood.

[edited to remove quote]

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

The people agreeing with you are the ppl defending Cloak. [snip] The ppl against Cloak have left or agreed with other comments.

I mean, you still haven’t posted anything on your end to back up your argument. I don’t see any “facts” on your end, truthfully.

Again your speculating. [snip]

I just want to see clips of NB mains showing how they’re constantly being pulled out of stealth and dying because of that.

I mean after all, that WAS one of the arguments at the beginning of the thread. “If you can’t kill a NB out of Cloak, that’s a l2p issue”. I’m not talking about squishy gankers. Show everyone how easy it is to kill a decently built NB that also uses Cloak.

A skilled NB does not usually die because someone pulled them out of cloak. Every skilled player understands that a skilled NB is not a one-trick pony as they themselves are not a one-trick pony in PvP or AvA. Even when they do die they do not save that video as every PvP/AvA player often edit their videos to show fights that go extremely well for them.

PhoenixGrey

ShadowProc wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In the case of the tankier NB, they would have their cloak broken and would have been better off just fighting because then they would have 4k+ more mag to keep fighting with. It's not like cloak is the only way to make some space.

Something that's swirling around some sorcs seems to be breaking my cloak when they're on me. IDK what it is if it isn't hurricane. Bombards great at breaking cloak and punishing a get away too while being universally available.

If you're trying to find an NB that isn't very close and having a hard time. That's okay, it means that player made their trick work.

That's one of the problems though. They feel they should be able tokill everyone. It's okay to not kill each other. Wait if the engage and kill them. Don't "waste" the potion.

With the kind of damage NB does, how it does not manage to wipe the floor over everyone else is beyond me.