Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Of course there isn't. You know why? Because they also have Shadow Image to use in case Cloak gets revealed. You conveniently forget that Shadow Image + Cloak are amazing when combined together. Yes, it costs 2 bar slots, but let's also not forget that Sorc has to slot an armor buff while NB gets it from a passive. So realistically, NB saves a bar slot for not needing to slot an armor buff, which can then be used to slot Shadow Image or another defensive ability with Cloak.

If there was a skill that specifically prevents people from Streaking, then nobody would even use Streak. This is not to mention Streak doesn't protect you from ranged attacks or cancel channeled executes.

I "conveniently" forget something I have repeatedly and distinctly stated experienced NBs are not one trick ponies and do not rely solely on cloak? Clearly, that is not the case as I did not forget anything which demonstrates the accuracy of my comments.

Also, it is inaccurate to state what a NB needs or does not need. Using the skill you have brought up, shadow image, which requires planning as well as other situational requirements for it to be useful and effective. One does not simply activate shadow image and use it to help evade damage unless they have a death wish as it will simply put them right where they are standing.

Beyond that I see no point in continuing to speak to Shadow Image as it has no bearing on the fact there is no need for ramping costs on cloak. It is just a distraction.

StaticWave

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Of course there isn't. You know why? Because they also have Shadow Image to use in case Cloak gets revealed. You conveniently forget that Shadow Image + Cloak are amazing when combined together. Yes, it costs 2 bar slots, but let's also not forget that Sorc has to slot an armor buff while NB gets it from a passive. So realistically, NB saves a bar slot for not needing to slot an armor buff, which can then be used to slot Shadow Image or another defensive ability with Cloak.

If there was a skill that specifically prevents people from Streaking, then nobody would even use Streak. This is not to mention Streak doesn't protect you from ranged attacks or cancel channeled executes.

I "conveniently" forget something I have repeatedly and distinctly stated experienced NBs are not one trick ponies and do not rely solely on cloak? Clearly, that is not the case as I did not forget anything which demonstrates the accuracy of my comments.

Also, it is inaccurate to state what a NB needs or does not need. Using the skill you have brought up, shadow image, which requires planning as well as other situational requirements for it to be useful and effective. One does not simply activate shadow image and use it to help evade damage unless they have a death wish as it will simply put them right where they are standing.

Beyond that I see no point in continuing to speak to Shadow Image as it has no bearing on the fact there is no need for ramping costs on cloak. It is just a distraction.

Shadow Image is a top tier escape tool and does not need much planning. I have played NB for a while and I don’t ever recall having to plan my Shadow Image’s location.

With the context of comparing counters that prevent Cloak from being reused vs counters that don’t prevent Streak from being reused, yes, you conveniently forgot that Shadow Image exists before making that statement.

NB gets a free bar slot for not needing to slot an Armor Buff. Sorc has to slot Hurricane. That gives NB 1 extra bar slot to use both Cloak and Shadow Image, or Cloak and another defensive ability. Sorc can only slot Streak and Hurricane.

If we were to make a counter that prevents Sorc from using Streak again, Sorc has no other escape tools due to bar space issue. If we prevent NB from using Cloak again, it still has Shadow Image, or Mist Form if it chooses to slot that over Shadow Image.

The point is, there is a logical reason why Cloak counter works like that and Streak counters don’t.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Shadow Image is a top tier escape tool and does not need much planning. I have played NB for a while and I don’t ever recall having to plan my Shadow Image’s location.

This actually depends on how many are chasing you and how good they are. I've had people split up and leave a few to chase and a few to camp the shadow. Also placement and structures do matter because you do still need to be in rage to get back yet have dragged the chasers away to where they've forgotten or didn't see where you placed it.

You have to understand that this playstyle with Shadow Image may just come to you a bit more easier due to other experiences and so you may be planning it without thinking about it. Point is that it doesn't mean you didn't on some level plan it. Or you're just a natural at it lol. I plan my drops but not to some point where it's a whole big thing just enough to make sure I'll get away from a rather savage or persistent group.

StaticWave wrote: »

With the context of comparing counters that prevent Cloak from being reused vs counters that don’t prevent Streak from being reused, yes, you conveniently forgot that Shadow Image exists before making that statement.

NB gets a free bar slot for not needing to slot an Armor Buff. Sorc has to slot Hurricane. That gives NB 1 extra bar slot to use both Cloak and Shadow Image, or Cloak and another defensive ability. Sorc can only slot Streak and Hurricane.

If we were to make a counter that prevents Sorc from using Streak again, Sorc has no other escape tools due to bar space issue. If we prevent NB from using Cloak again, it still has Shadow Image, or Mist Form if it chooses to slot that over Shadow Image.

The point is, there is a logical reason why Cloak counter works like that and Streak counters don’t.

I do agree that it really wouldn't make sense to have a skill or anything that says streak just doesn't work. Closing the distance is a fair enough nullification of the streak in my opinion and gap closers or movement speed do that just fine.

If someone doesn't want to slot a gap closer or move movement speed then they are just in the same boat as me if I run up on a nb while packing no reveals.

Though it's a little rigged in favor of the reveal because they have more bang for the buck when slotting.

You could slot the fighters guild skill I suppose but even then I don't think you get as much value as say camo hunter.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This actually depends on how many are chasing you and how good they are. I've had people split up and leave a few to chase and a few to camp the shadow. Also placement and structures do matter because you do still need to be in rage to get back yet have dragged the chasers away to where they've forgotten or didn't see where you placed it.

You have to understand that this playstyle with Shadow Image may just come to you a bit more easier due to other experiences and so you may be planning it without thinking about it. Point is that it doesn't mean you didn't on some level plan it. Or you're just a natural at it lol. I plan my drops but not to some point where it's a whole big thing just enough to make sure I'll get away from a rather savage or persistent group.

Yea there are fights where a few will stay behind to camp the shadow, but that to me is a win because I'm breaking up the herd without actually having to do much work. On my Sorc the entire herd follows wherever I go lol.

Shade is legit the best defensive ability for tower and keep fights, or any fights around lots of LoS. I remember posting a clip of Streak earlier in this thread and at the end of the clip I had to juke a bunch of people with Undo by jumping off the keep and Undoing back. Shade would have accomplished the same job but also saved my ulti points.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I do agree that it really wouldn't make sense to have a skill or anything that says streak just doesn't work. Closing the distance is a fair enough nullification of the streak in my opinion and gap closers or movement speed do that just fine.

If someone doesn't want to slot a gap closer or move movement speed then they are just in the same boat as me if I run up on a nb while packing no reveals.

Though it's a little rigged in favor of the reveal because they have more bang for the buck when slotting.

You could slot the fighters guild skill I suppose but even then I don't think you get as much value as say camo hunter.

Gap closers/chains are hard counters to Streak like Camo Hunter/Mage Light are hard counters to Cloak. Yes, Cloak users are prevented from using it for 3 seconds if revealed, but Streak has a ramping cost and there is no way you can escape a gap closer/chain user if they decide to go after you, especially because there are no ramping costs for gap closers/chains.

If we compare the mechanics of both hard counters, we can see 1 common thing:

Reveal abilities prevent Cloak users from entering stealth again, which lets them take damage from the revealer. Gap closer deals damage and sticks to the Streak user, allowing them to also deal damage to the Streak user.

If Cloak users weren't prevented from entering stealth, then it's no longer a hard counter, but a soft counter. What's preventing them from entering Stealth again for the next GCD? With no ramping cost and decent magicka recovery, they could just spam it while someone is using Camo Hunter and effectively take no damage due Cloak's ability to cancel melee attacks and absorb ranged attacks. I think it's justified that Cloak users can't enter stealth.

Tommy_The_Gun

StaticWave wrote: »

Gap closers/chains are hard counters to Streak like Camo Hunter/Mage Light are hard counters to Cloak. Yes, Cloak users are prevented from using it for 3 seconds if revealed, but Streak has a ramping cost and there is no way you can escape a gap closer/chain user if they decide to go after you, especially because there are no ramping costs for gap closers/chains.

Well, it depends on what one considers "a counter".

For instance, I think that the only "hard counter" to streak currently is Negate, as it literally prevents you from casting the ability. As long as you are within Negate's "bubble" you can not streak/Mist form out of it. This is a closest as possible to detection skills & cloak as you can not use it at all. In both cases you can not cast the skill.

There is also other counter that currently I don't think exists for gap closers / mobility skills - reverting / removing the effect of this skill split second after it was used. It is quite common to happen when you use invisibility potion or cloak. You are invisible for split second and it gets interupted, but you are 4k magicka less / 1 potion less & you are on potion cooldown (hence why cloak does not have ramping cost as resources are wasted but effect is removed). And this can happen pretty much indefinitely as long as some one has camo hunter / mage light / flare up.

For Streak & Mist Form the equivalent effect would be if you got teleported back to your origin point split second after using it - and so far something like this (thankfully) does not exist in the game.

As for the gap closer / mobility buffs being a counter to Streak / Mist Form.... I don't think they are. Definitely not the "hard counter" as those do not prevent you from using the skill. It is soft or ultra soft counter at best as all your opponents are doing is simply - chasing you. But your position still changes so you may find a better spot (like use line of sight & terrain as cover). I remember playing Sorc and what I would do if there was a crowd of people chasing me - I would streak away as much as I can (literally till I run out of magicka) and then use invisibility potion. No one expects that, as I am not a NB.

Anyway if gap closer are counter to Streak then it means they are also counters to other gap closers as well, but definitely not a "hard counter".

Jierdanit

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Well, it depends on what one considers "a counter".

For instance, I think that the only "hard counter" to streak currently is Negate, as it literally prevents you from casting the ability. As long as you are within Negate's "bubble" you can not streak/Mist form out of it. This is a closest as possible to detection skills & cloak as you can not use it at all. In both cases you can not cast the skill.

There is also other counter that currently I don't think exists for gap closers / mobility skills - reverting / removing the effect of this skill split second after it was used. It is quite common to happen when you use invisibility potion or cloak. You are invisible for split second and it gets interupted, but you are 4k magicka less / 1 potion less & you are on potion cooldown (hence why cloak does not have ramping cost as resources are wasted but effect is removed). And this can happen pretty much indefinitely as long as some one has camo hunter / mage light / flare up.

For Streak & Mist Form the equivalent effect would be if you got teleported back to your origin point split second after using it - and so far something like this (thankfully) does not exist in the game.

As for the gap closer / mobility buffs being a counter to Streak / Mist Form.... I don't think they are. Definitely not the "hard counter" as those do not prevent you from using the skill. It is soft or ultra soft counter at best as all your opponent are doing is simply - chasing you. But your position still changes so you may find a better spot (like use line of sight & terrain as cover). I remember playing Sorc and what I would do if there was a crowd of people chasing me - I would streak away as much as I can (literally till I run out of magicka) and then use invisibility potion. No one expects that, as I am not a NB.

Anyway if gap closer are counter to Streak then it means they are also counters to other gap closers as well, but definitely not a "hard counter".

If you consider only negate a counter to streak then there are also effectively only 4 counters to cloak.

One thing you conveniently didn't mention is that when you get removed from stealth by Camo, Mage Light or Flare the person you're fighting also lost 4k+ stam/ 5k+ mag to break your cloak.
Which is more expensive than cloak in every situation.
And yeah ofc they get an advantage against you, but they are supposed to have an advantage when they're using a skill that actively has no use other than breaking cloak.
But the point with that is that if it didn't prevent you from cloaking you'd just do it again and they would run out of ressources before you do on average.
For Streak it's the other way around. Since ramping cost you can at max streak like 3 or 4 times back to back without completely ruining your mag sustain, while someone who uses 4 not ramping gap closers to come after you still should be able to fight properly.

If cloak got a ramping cost it would be completely fine if camo/mage light would just take you out of cloak but not prevent use (and maybe get a range increase).

Also at least if you're fighting 1v1 it is effectively the same whether you get pulled back to your start location after streak or if the opponent gets to your position, which is exactly what a gap closer does, it enables the player to keep the fight going.
So currently gap closers basically have the same effect on Streak that reveals do on Cloak.

StaticWave

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Well, it depends on what one considers "a counter".

For instance, I think that the only "hard counter" to streak currently is Negate, as it literally prevents you from casting the ability. As long as you are within Negate's "bubble" you can not streak/Mist form out of it. This is a closest as possible to detection skills & cloak as you can not use it at all. In both cases you can not cast the skill.

Well, a counter is supposed to be effective most of the time against whichever ability it's designed to counter. Take your example of Negate, we can see that Streak is 100% countered if Negate encloses the entire radius around the Streak user. So yes, it is a counter in that aspect, but the question is: Is it an effective counter?

It depends. Most of the time Negate isn't effective as a Streak counter because it can easily be moved out of, doesn't have kill potential like Dawnbreaker or any hard hitting ultimates, and has very low uptime due to the nature of building ultimate points. The only time when it's really effective is if you're using it as a support ability in your group.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

There is also other counter that currently I don't think exists for gap closers / mobility skills - reverting / removing the effect of this skill split second after it was used. It is quite common to happen when you use invisibility potion or cloak. You are invisible for split second and it gets interupted, but you are 4k magicka less / 1 potion less & you are on potion cooldown (hence why cloak does not have ramping cost as resources are wasted but effect is removed). And this can happen pretty much indefinitely as long as some one has camo hunter / mage light / flare up.

Unfortunately this is probably a glitch. I know Bound Armaments remove Cloak's effect, but Crystal Fragment doesn't. Some single target DoTs like Entropy also removes NB from stealth, but other single target DoTs don't. It's inconsistent but I'm 100% sure it's a bug. Maybe ZOS can clarify that for us?

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

For Streak & Mist Form the equivalent effect would be if you got teleported back to your origin point split second after using it - and so far something like this (thankfully) does not exist in the game.

I don't think there's anything that exists like that, but DK chain/Silver Leash can accomplish that to some extent lol. Even though the counter can only be used once every 7s due to CC immunity, it's still something.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As for the gap closer / mobility buffs being a counter to Streak / Mist Form.... I don't think they are. Definitely not the "hard counter" as those do not prevent you from using the skill. It is soft or ultra soft counter at best as all your opponent are doing is simply - chasing you. But your position still changes so you may find a better spot (like use line of sight & terrain as cover). I remember playing Sorc and what I would do if there was a crowd of people chasing me - I would streak away as much as I can (literally till I run out of magicka) and then use invisibility potion. No one expects that, as I am not a NB.

I think we have to look at this from another angle as classes are still designed differently even though they may have similar abilities. I don't think we can use one class' definition of a hard counter and apply it to another class.

If we go by your definition of a hard counter, then yes I would agree with you that gap closers are soft counters to Streak / Mist Form. However, I've established that counters are supposed to be really effective, and gap closers are really effective at denying the Streak/Mist user's ability to create distance from the threat, similar to how Camo Hunter is denying the Cloak user's ability to hide from the threat. By that definition, gap closers are hard counters to Streak/Mistform like Camo Hunter/Mage Light are hard counters to Cloak.

Another reason I think makes logical sense why Streak doesn't have a counter preventing it from being used like Cloak is due to the function of the two abilities. Cloak essentially removes you from the game, thereby cancelling any incoming single target attacks (excluding the supposedly bugged abilities like Bound Armaments or Entropy). You see a guy casting Dizzying Swing? Just cloak it. Someone's beaming you? Cloak it. A Frag/Bow Proc is coming your way? Cloak it. It also suppresses single target DoTs, so builds that rely on single target DoTs won't be so hard to deal with.

This is why I said if Camo Hunter/any reveal ability doesn't prevent Cloak users from recasting it, then it would be TOO STRONG. Yes, you will spend 4k magicka to recast it every second if you're within range of Camo Hunter, but you're also potentially cancelling any incoming single target attacks and single target DoTs made within that GCD of recasting Cloak. All you have to do is build some movement speed, roll dodge out of Camo Hunter range, and you're good.

Streak on the other hand doesn't suppress DoTs or cancel incoming attacks unless you dodge roll mid Streak. I can streak twice from a group of players but unless I also dodge roll mid Streak, I'm still going to take damage from whatever ranged ability casted before I use my Streak. I'm still going to take damage from whatever DoTs applied to me before I use my Streak. Now imagine if there's an ability that prevents me from Streaking for 3 seconds as well. I would just remove Streak at that point and slot something more meaningful like an extra heal lol.

Tommy_The_Gun

Jierdanit wrote: »

One thing you conveniently didn't mention is that when you get removed from stealth by Camo, Mage Light or Flare the person you're fighting also lost 4k+ stam/ 5k+ mag to break your cloak.
Which is more expensive than cloak in every situation.

You are right, it works exactly that way (they pay resources too), but I think I was not clear enough and I thought people will understand "mental shortcut" I have made (sorry, my bad )

You see, I think It would be best to just say: Why do we often see NBs "spamming" cloak initially ? Sometimes they just use it once, but very often they spam it. Why it is that ? It is not like they are panicking or something. And yet NB very often literally spend their entire GC on that. Well, to answer that there are some invisibility / cloak mechanics that needs to be mentioned:

1. Cloak does not prevent you from taking damage (any kind of damage).
2. Cloak does prevent you from being targeted by single target abilities (as you are invisible to other players). That is the way it allows to avoid damage (but not DOT or ground DOT - those will keep ticking).
3. Cloak is interupted by taking Direct Damage. Not Damage over time. Direct Damage.

The 3rd can be best seen when you have a NB with a Haunting Curse. They cloak, explosion goes off, they take Direct Damage and cloak is interupted. Same with Arrow Spray. If Cloaked NB is within the cone - they will get de-cloaked.

But there is a very important caveat here - attack timing & animations.

You see, if some one is attacking a NB with an ability that deals Direct Damage and attack animation already started, then if NB will hit "avoid damage button" (cloak) - what will happen next is the cloak will be interupted by the attack. It happens because server registered attack 1st and Cloak is registered as 2nd so from the game mechanics point of view the attack started before NB had Cloak active. And no cloak active means that you can be targeted by single target stuff.
The: "miss", "miss", "miss" message happens when difference in attack vs casting cloak timing was greater and server most likely can register that, but if the attack happens split seconds before cloak is active that it gets interupted.

It is best seen if there are like 2 or 3 players attacking a NB with bow light attacks (pew-pew XD). Bow LA are projectiles that deal Direct Damage and have a travel time. So, if there are multiple projectiles launched at you, each of them is registered on the server. If projectile was launched before cloak was active, then very often cloak will be cancelled.

That is the main reason why very often you see NBs "spamming" cloak. To force the server to register that "they are invisible" in a right moment so the cloak won't get interupted anymore.

Detection skills are not used alone, but rather with conjunction with other stuff that for the most part will force NB to cast cloak in rapid succession like 3 - 4 times, just to "jump-start" it.

And that is why I think Cloak does not have ramping cost. ZOS is most likely aware of that & how it all works, and thus most likely they are not changing that. Especially if you consider that every time they touched how invisibility works "under the hood" it ended up being bugged & unusable for the entire updates lol. It is much easier to add special revealing abilities & potions that act as a hard counter, so they went with that route.

(And I am not gonna mention the entire history of NB cloak changes and how at some point it had build in purge and then dot suppression and used to be OP vs what it is now, because that would make this long post - too long)

Jierdanit

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

You are right, it works exactly that way (they pay resources too), but I think I was not clear enough and I thought people will understand "mental shortcut" I have made (sorry, my bad )

You see, I think It would be best to just say: Why do we often see NBs "spamming" cloak initially ? Sometimes they just use it once, but very often they spam it. Why it is that ? It is not like they are panicking or something. And yet NB very often literally spend their entire GC on that. Well, to answer that there are some invisibility / cloak mechanics that needs to be mentioned:

1. Cloak does not prevent you from taking damage (any kind of damage).
2. Cloak does prevent you from being targeted by single target abilities (as you are invisible to other players). That is the way it allows to avoid damage (but not DOT or ground DOT - those will keep ticking).
3. Cloak is interupted by taking Direct Damage. Not Damage over time. Direct Damage.

The 3rd can be best seen best when you have a NB with a Haunting Curse. They cloak, explosion goes off, they take Direct Damage and cloak is interupted. Same with Arrow Spray. If Cloaked NB is within the cone - they will get de-cloaked.

But there is a very important caveat here - attack timing & animations.

You see, if some one is attacking a NB with an ability that deals Direct Damage and attack animation already started, then if NB will hit "avoid damage button" (cloak) - what will happen next is the cloak will be interupted by the attack. It happens because server registered attack 1st and Cloak is registered as 2nd so from the game mechanics point of view the attack started before NB had Cloak active. And no cloak active means that you can be targeted by single target stuff.
The: "miss", "miss", "miss" message happens when difference in attack vs casting cloak timing was greater and server most likely can register that, but if the attack happens split seconds before cloak is active that it gets interupted.

It is best seen if there are like 2 or 3 players attacking a NB with bow light attacks (pew-pew XD). Bow LA are projectiles that deal Direct Damage and have a travel time. So, if there are multiple projectiles launched at you, each of them is registered on the server. If projectile was launched before cloak was active, then very often cloak will be cancelled.

That is the main reason why very often you see NBs "spamming" cloak. To force the server to register that "they are invisible" in a right moment so the cloak won't get interupted anymore.

Detection skills are not used alone, but rather with conjunction with other stuff that for the most part will force NB to cast cloak in rapid succession like 3 - 4 times, just to "jump-start" it.

And that is why I think Cloak does not have ramping cost. ZOS is most likely aware of that & how it all works, and thus most likely they are not changing that. Especially if you consider that every time they touched how invisibility works "under the hood" it ended up being bugged & unusable for the entire updates lol. It is much easier to add special revealing abilities & potions that act as a hard counter, so they went with that route.

(And I am not gonna mention the entire history of NB cloak changes and how at some point it had build in purge and then dot suppression and used to be OP vs what it is now, because that would make this long post - too long)

What you mentioned are bugs though and they should be fixed.
It isn't fun for anyone if you die due to your skills not properly working.

I can understand that a ramping cost might be too much atm if cloak doesn't properly work a lot of the time, but I'd rather have Zos fix the Bugs and then balance the skill (via something like a ramping cost), than have the skills be balanced through the bugs.
Because in the current state it's basically impossible to properly tell whether your cloak is going to work or not and it's not easy to tell whether your counter to cloak is going to work or not with positional desync etc.

Fixing bugs like that should always be the main priority, because you can't properly balance a bugged skill especially if you're gonna fix the Bugs later on.

Bushido2513

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

[

Well, it depends on what one considers "a counter".



Anyway if gap closer are counter to Streak then it means they are also counters to other gap closers as well, but definitely not a "hard counter".

So I was curious and looked it up on the dictionary. The meaning would be to offset or nullify.

So then I would think we're talking about the difference in this case of camo offsetting and nullifying the skill for a period vs gap closers and chains simply offsetting the use of steak. I suppose that's where people get the hard and soft iterations of these as counters.

After reading the several breakdowns I'd say the current position of all these things seems decently close to balanced though I would like to see a very minor cost reduction on reveal skills to really hit the balance spot a bit more for me.

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Of course there isn't. You know why? Because they also have Shadow Image to use in case Cloak gets revealed. You conveniently forget that Shadow Image + Cloak are amazing when combined together. Yes, it costs 2 bar slots, but let's also not forget that Sorc has to slot an armor buff while NB gets it from a passive. So realistically, NB saves a bar slot for not needing to slot an armor buff, which can then be used to slot Shadow Image or another defensive ability with Cloak.

If there was a skill that specifically prevents people from Streaking, then nobody would even use Streak. This is not to mention Streak doesn't protect you from ranged attacks or cancel channeled executes.

I "conveniently" forget something I have repeatedly and distinctly stated experienced NBs are not one trick ponies and do not rely solely on cloak? Clearly, that is not the case as I did not forget anything which demonstrates the accuracy of my comments.

Also, it is inaccurate to state what a NB needs or does not need. Using the skill you have brought up, shadow image, which requires planning as well as other situational requirements for it to be useful and effective. One does not simply activate shadow image and use it to help evade damage unless they have a death wish as it will simply put them right where they are standing.

Beyond that I see no point in continuing to speak to Shadow Image as it has no bearing on the fact there is no need for ramping costs on cloak. It is just a distraction.

Shadow Image is a top tier escape tool and does not need much planning. I have played NB for a while and I don’t ever recall having to plan my Shadow Image’s location.

Are you suggesting activating Shadow image and immediately activating it again creates a great means for escape?

I must be much less experienced then since it seems I would be porting myself to the exact same place I was to start with. That seems to be a very poor escape means, so yea, it does in fact require deploying the image ahead of time so it is in a different place than the player when it is activated for escape. That is by definition planning.

And yes, we are on a tangent that is not directly relevant to cloak because I was accused of "conveniently forgetting" something I had clearly not forgotten and now had to demonstrate how to use that other skill properly.

StaticWave

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Of course there isn't. You know why? Because they also have Shadow Image to use in case Cloak gets revealed. You conveniently forget that Shadow Image + Cloak are amazing when combined together. Yes, it costs 2 bar slots, but let's also not forget that Sorc has to slot an armor buff while NB gets it from a passive. So realistically, NB saves a bar slot for not needing to slot an armor buff, which can then be used to slot Shadow Image or another defensive ability with Cloak.

If there was a skill that specifically prevents people from Streaking, then nobody would even use Streak. This is not to mention Streak doesn't protect you from ranged attacks or cancel channeled executes.

I "conveniently" forget something I have repeatedly and distinctly stated experienced NBs are not one trick ponies and do not rely solely on cloak? Clearly, that is not the case as I did not forget anything which demonstrates the accuracy of my comments.

Also, it is inaccurate to state what a NB needs or does not need. Using the skill you have brought up, shadow image, which requires planning as well as other situational requirements for it to be useful and effective. One does not simply activate shadow image and use it to help evade damage unless they have a death wish as it will simply put them right where they are standing.

Beyond that I see no point in continuing to speak to Shadow Image as it has no bearing on the fact there is no need for ramping costs on cloak. It is just a distraction.

Shadow Image is a top tier escape tool and does not need much planning. I have played NB for a while and I don’t ever recall having to plan my Shadow Image’s location.

Are you suggesting activating Shadow image and immediately activating it again creates a great means for escape?

I must be much less experienced then since it seems I would be porting myself to the exact same place I was to start with. That seems to be a very poor escape means, so yea, it does in fact require deploying the image ahead of time so it is in a different place than the player when it is activated for escape. That is by definition planning.

And yes, we are on a tangent that is not directly relevant to cloak because I was accused of "conveniently forgetting" something I had clearly not forgotten and now had to demonstrate how to use that other skill properly.

Have you ever PvPed inside a tower, a keep, or around line of sight? If you did then you wouldn’t ask me that question about Shadow Image.

Or better yet just watch top tier NB players like Sniker and watch how he jukes an entire group with Shade and tell me why it isn’t a great escape tool.

Please don’t talk about Shade like it requires uber amounts of planning. It doesn’t. I don’t expend a lot of energy to think about where to drop my Shade. I just drop it at the nearest line of sight, kite them away, then shade back when needed. It’s not rocket science lol.

Sure you didn’t forget it, my bad then. Let me repeat what I said in another comment as to why Cloak counters prevent users from reentering stealth but Streak counters don’t:

“Another reason I think makes logical sense why Streak doesn't have a counter preventing it from being used like Cloak is due to the function of the two abilities. Cloak essentially removes you from the game, thereby cancelling any incoming single target attacks (excluding the supposedly bugged abilities like Bound Armaments or Entropy). You see a guy casting Dizzying Swing? Just cloak it. Someone's beaming you? Cloak it. A Frag/Bow Proc is coming your way? Cloak it. It also suppresses single target DoTs, so builds that rely on single target DoTs won't be so hard to deal with.

This is why I said if Camo Hunter/any reveal ability doesn't prevent Cloak users from recasting it, then it would be TOO STRONG. Yes, you will spend 4k magicka to recast it every second if you're within range of Camo Hunter, but you're also potentially cancelling any incoming single target attacks and single target DoTs made within that GCD of recasting Cloak. All you have to do is build some movement speed, roll dodge out of Camo Hunter range, and you're good.

Streak on the other hand doesn't suppress DoTs or cancel incoming attacks unless you dodge roll mid Streak. I can streak twice from a group of players but unless I also dodge roll mid Streak, I'm still going to take damage from whatever ranged ability casted before I use my Streak. I'm still going to take damage from whatever DoTs applied to me before I use my Streak. Now imagine if there's an ability that prevents me from Streaking for 3 seconds as well. I would just remove Streak at that point and slot something more meaningful like an extra heal lol.”

ShadowProc

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

You are right, it works exactly that way (they pay resources too), but I think I was not clear enough and I thought people will understand "mental shortcut" I have made (sorry, my bad )

You see, I think It would be best to just say: Why do we often see NBs "spamming" cloak initially ? Sometimes they just use it once, but very often they spam it. Why it is that ? It is not like they are panicking or something. And yet NB very often literally spend their entire GC on that. Well, to answer that there are some invisibility / cloak mechanics that needs to be mentioned:

1. Cloak does not prevent you from taking damage (any kind of damage).
2. Cloak does prevent you from being targeted by single target abilities (as you are invisible to other players). That is the way it allows to avoid damage (but not DOT or ground DOT - those will keep ticking).
3. Cloak is interupted by taking Direct Damage. Not Damage over time. Direct Damage.

The 3rd can be best seen best when you have a NB with a Haunting Curse. They cloak, explosion goes off, they take Direct Damage and cloak is interupted. Same with Arrow Spray. If Cloaked NB is within the cone - they will get de-cloaked.

But there is a very important caveat here - attack timing & animations.

You see, if some one is attacking a NB with an ability that deals Direct Damage and attack animation already started, then if NB will hit "avoid damage button" (cloak) - what will happen next is the cloak will be interupted by the attack. It happens because server registered attack 1st and Cloak is registered as 2nd so from the game mechanics point of view the attack started before NB had Cloak active. And no cloak active means that you can be targeted by single target stuff.
The: "miss", "miss", "miss" message happens when difference in attack vs casting cloak timing was greater and server most likely can register that, but if the attack happens split seconds before cloak is active that it gets interupted.

It is best seen if there are like 2 or 3 players attacking a NB with bow light attacks (pew-pew XD). Bow LA are projectiles that deal Direct Damage and have a travel time. So, if there are multiple projectiles launched at you, each of them is registered on the server. If projectile was launched before cloak was active, then very often cloak will be cancelled.

That is the main reason why very often you see NBs "spamming" cloak. To force the server to register that "they are invisible" in a right moment so the cloak won't get interupted anymore.

Detection skills are not used alone, but rather with conjunction with other stuff that for the most part will force NB to cast cloak in rapid succession like 3 - 4 times, just to "jump-start" it.

And that is why I think Cloak does not have ramping cost. ZOS is most likely aware of that & how it all works, and thus most likely they are not changing that. Especially if you consider that every time they touched how invisibility works "under the hood" it ended up being bugged & unusable for the entire updates lol. It is much easier to add special revealing abilities & potions that act as a hard counter, so they went with that route.

(And I am not gonna mention the entire history of NB cloak changes and how at some point it had build in purge and then dot suppression and used to be OP vs what it is now, because that would make this long post - too long)

What you mentioned are bugs though and they should be fixed.
It isn't fun for anyone if you die due to your skills not properly working.

I can understand that a ramping cost might be too much atm if cloak doesn't properly work a lot of the time, but I'd rather have Zos fix the Bugs and then balance the skill (via something like a ramping cost), than have the skills be balanced through the bugs.
Because in the current state it's basically impossible to properly tell whether your cloak is going to work or not and it's not easy to tell whether your counter to cloak is going to work or not with positional desync etc.

Fixing bugs like that should always be the main priority, because you can't properly balance a bugged skill especially if you're gonna fix the Bugs later on.

Are you new? Fix pvp bugs. Lol. Sure. That's the whole point. Some of the bugs that break cloak have been around forever. And as they get fixed others pop up on new patches.

Jierdanit

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

You are right, it works exactly that way (they pay resources too), but I think I was not clear enough and I thought people will understand "mental shortcut" I have made (sorry, my bad )

You see, I think It would be best to just say: Why do we often see NBs "spamming" cloak initially ? Sometimes they just use it once, but very often they spam it. Why it is that ? It is not like they are panicking or something. And yet NB very often literally spend their entire GC on that. Well, to answer that there are some invisibility / cloak mechanics that needs to be mentioned:

1. Cloak does not prevent you from taking damage (any kind of damage).
2. Cloak does prevent you from being targeted by single target abilities (as you are invisible to other players). That is the way it allows to avoid damage (but not DOT or ground DOT - those will keep ticking).
3. Cloak is interupted by taking Direct Damage. Not Damage over time. Direct Damage.

The 3rd can be best seen best when you have a NB with a Haunting Curse. They cloak, explosion goes off, they take Direct Damage and cloak is interupted. Same with Arrow Spray. If Cloaked NB is within the cone - they will get de-cloaked.

But there is a very important caveat here - attack timing & animations.

You see, if some one is attacking a NB with an ability that deals Direct Damage and attack animation already started, then if NB will hit "avoid damage button" (cloak) - what will happen next is the cloak will be interupted by the attack. It happens because server registered attack 1st and Cloak is registered as 2nd so from the game mechanics point of view the attack started before NB had Cloak active. And no cloak active means that you can be targeted by single target stuff.
The: "miss", "miss", "miss" message happens when difference in attack vs casting cloak timing was greater and server most likely can register that, but if the attack happens split seconds before cloak is active that it gets interupted.

It is best seen if there are like 2 or 3 players attacking a NB with bow light attacks (pew-pew XD). Bow LA are projectiles that deal Direct Damage and have a travel time. So, if there are multiple projectiles launched at you, each of them is registered on the server. If projectile was launched before cloak was active, then very often cloak will be cancelled.

That is the main reason why very often you see NBs "spamming" cloak. To force the server to register that "they are invisible" in a right moment so the cloak won't get interupted anymore.

Detection skills are not used alone, but rather with conjunction with other stuff that for the most part will force NB to cast cloak in rapid succession like 3 - 4 times, just to "jump-start" it.

And that is why I think Cloak does not have ramping cost. ZOS is most likely aware of that & how it all works, and thus most likely they are not changing that. Especially if you consider that every time they touched how invisibility works "under the hood" it ended up being bugged & unusable for the entire updates lol. It is much easier to add special revealing abilities & potions that act as a hard counter, so they went with that route.

(And I am not gonna mention the entire history of NB cloak changes and how at some point it had build in purge and then dot suppression and used to be OP vs what it is now, because that would make this long post - too long)

What you mentioned are bugs though and they should be fixed.
It isn't fun for anyone if you die due to your skills not properly working.

I can understand that a ramping cost might be too much atm if cloak doesn't properly work a lot of the time, but I'd rather have Zos fix the Bugs and then balance the skill (via something like a ramping cost), than have the skills be balanced through the bugs.
Because in the current state it's basically impossible to properly tell whether your cloak is going to work or not and it's not easy to tell whether your counter to cloak is going to work or not with positional desync etc.

Fixing bugs like that should always be the main priority, because you can't properly balance a bugged skill especially if you're gonna fix the Bugs later on.

Are you new? Fix pvp bugs. Lol. Sure. That's the whole point. Some of the bugs that break cloak have been around forever. And as they get fixed others pop up on new patches.

Just because ZOS doesn't fix *** doesn't mean they shouldn't lol.
I've been playing PvP since 2016 I know how long bugs last in this game dude.
Can still hope for things to change.

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Of course there isn't. You know why? Because they also have Shadow Image to use in case Cloak gets revealed. You conveniently forget that Shadow Image + Cloak are amazing when combined together. Yes, it costs 2 bar slots, but let's also not forget that Sorc has to slot an armor buff while NB gets it from a passive. So realistically, NB saves a bar slot for not needing to slot an armor buff, which can then be used to slot Shadow Image or another defensive ability with Cloak.

If there was a skill that specifically prevents people from Streaking, then nobody would even use Streak. This is not to mention Streak doesn't protect you from ranged attacks or cancel channeled executes.

I "conveniently" forget something I have repeatedly and distinctly stated experienced NBs are not one trick ponies and do not rely solely on cloak? Clearly, that is not the case as I did not forget anything which demonstrates the accuracy of my comments.

Also, it is inaccurate to state what a NB needs or does not need. Using the skill you have brought up, shadow image, which requires planning as well as other situational requirements for it to be useful and effective. One does not simply activate shadow image and use it to help evade damage unless they have a death wish as it will simply put them right where they are standing.

Beyond that I see no point in continuing to speak to Shadow Image as it has no bearing on the fact there is no need for ramping costs on cloak. It is just a distraction.

Shadow Image is a top tier escape tool and does not need much planning. I have played NB for a while and I don’t ever recall having to plan my Shadow Image’s location.

Are you suggesting activating Shadow image and immediately activating it again creates a great means for escape?

I must be much less experienced then since it seems I would be porting myself to the exact same place I was to start with. That seems to be a very poor escape means, so yea, it does in fact require deploying the image ahead of time so it is in a different place than the player when it is activated for escape. That is by definition planning.

And yes, we are on a tangent that is not directly relevant to cloak because I was accused of "conveniently forgetting" something I had clearly not forgotten and now had to demonstrate how to use that other skill properly.

Have you ever PvPed inside a tower, a keep, or around line of sight? If you did then you wouldn’t ask me that question about Shadow Image.

Or better yet just watch top tier NB players like Sniker and watch how he jukes an entire group with Shade and tell me why it isn’t a great escape tool.

Please don’t talk about Shade like it requires uber amounts of planning. It doesn’t. I don’t expend a lot of energy to think about where to drop my Shade. I just drop it at the nearest line of sight, kite them away, then shade back when needed. It’s not rocket science lol.

Sure you didn’t forget it, my bad then. Let me repeat what I said in another comment as to why Cloak counters prevent users from reentering stealth but Streak counters don’t:

“Another reason I think makes logical sense why Streak doesn't have a counter preventing it from being used like Cloak is due to the function of the two abilities. Cloak essentially removes you from the game, thereby cancelling any incoming single target attacks (excluding the supposedly bugged abilities like Bound Armaments or Entropy). You see a guy casting Dizzying Swing? Just cloak it. Someone's beaming you? Cloak it. A Frag/Bow Proc is coming your way? Cloak it. It also suppresses single target DoTs, so builds that rely on single target DoTs won't be so hard to deal with.

This is why I said if Camo Hunter/any reveal ability doesn't prevent Cloak users from recasting it, then it would be TOO STRONG. Yes, you will spend 4k magicka to recast it every second if you're within range of Camo Hunter, but you're also potentially cancelling any incoming single target attacks and single target DoTs made within that GCD of recasting Cloak. All you have to do is build some movement speed, roll dodge out of Camo Hunter range, and you're good.

Streak on the other hand doesn't suppress DoTs or cancel incoming attacks unless you dodge roll mid Streak. I can streak twice from a group of players but unless I also dodge roll mid Streak, I'm still going to take damage from whatever ranged ability casted before I use my Streak. I'm still going to take damage from whatever DoTs applied to me before I use my Streak. Now imagine if there's an ability that prevents me from Streaking for 3 seconds as well. I would just remove Streak at that point and slot something more meaningful like an extra heal lol.”

Not sure where you get the idea I have said using shadow image requires “uber ammount of planning” It was not from anything I have said here.

I merely pointed out how much it dies require some planning as it is a two part skill. I expect there are some NB videos showing that they do place the shadow image ahead of using it to help them evade. Does it require an extending thought? No and I never said or even suggested it did.

This is an example of how a tangent brings a thread off topic.

PhoenixGrey

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

In almost every case in which you use streak defensively Jesus Beam is absolutely a counter to it. Lol.

Sorc has no way to quickly heal up, that is why they need streak, to get away to LoS or out of range and then heal.
Jesus Beam follows you all the way through streak and is just going to kill you before you can do anything against it.

If you don't know *** about sorc just don't act like you do.

Your HoTs? Lol.

Imagine using a HoT to get out of execute range. Sorc in execute range is a dead sorc by default.

Oh wait , how did i forget that you are a NB and you don't need heals.
You probably don't understand the concept of burst healing / shielding / LOS as NB is the only class in the game which doesn't need any of it thanks to cloak and shade

Just FYI but NB has a really strong burst heal as an icing on top of the cake.

SandandStars

Regarding long term bugs and the track record for fixing them:

I think around U35/block bug era I noticed that each patch and update introduced more bugs than they had been able to fix since the last one. This pattern has continued.

So in essence, the game will continue to get buggier and buggier until it is over.

I am not going to do a comprehensive laundry list of all the ways that PVP combat is more glitchy and messed up than it was two years ago. But if you have played, you know this is true. Not just talking about lag at all. Things like CC stuns being unbreakable & lasting too long, flame clench not doing knockback animation, the list is too long.

Tonturri

Genuinely think NB should have never gotten Healthy Offering - it should've been Dark Cloak as a base, then one morph for a wpn/spell dmg based heal and another for a health based heal. Also Dark Cloak sucks if you're moving. Why ZOS put that requirement on a class you would otherwise expect to always be moving is just...Ugh. Oodles worse than vigor while moving.

I think NB has been utility-crept a little bit, which is part of why cloak continues to get ragged on. Admittedly it's a stealth skill and will get complaints anyway, but it was less of an issue when the NB didn't have a burst heal

Cast_El

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

master_vanargand

Cast_El wrote: »

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

DK is the strongest and other classes are garbage in PvP.
I think people who want to nerf NB lack PvP experience.

reazea

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

DK is the strongest and other classes are garbage in PvP.
I think people who want to nerf NB lack PvP experience.

It's true DK's are the top of the heap in PvP, but that doesn't mean that cloak is an over abused "skill" that is OP and in need of a slight nerf, and a ramping cost is the perfect solution.

Cast_El

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

DK is the strongest and other classes are garbage in PvP.
I think people who want to nerf NB lack PvP experience.

Yes Dk is king 👑 . But not every other classes are garbage, they are not overtuned like DK

Tyrant_Tim

Cast_El wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

DK is the strongest and other classes are garbage in PvP.
I think people who want to nerf NB lack PvP experience.

Yes Dk is king 👑 . But not every other classes are garbage, they are not overtuned like DK

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

Bushido2513

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

Dk is closer to king if not the king because it's easier to pick up and play.

For instance a lesser Dk could probably tank a nb for a bit and still have the damage to possibly kill them with some of the fairly easy combos.

A lesser nb would have damage but might not understand how to build it up and put it together without dying against a dk.

Not to say that nb doesn't have great defense and heals, just take more effort than is required by the dk for similar effect.

Tyrant_Tim

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

Dk is closer to king if not the king because it's easier to pick up and play.

We have vastly different definitions of what a king is. There is nothing simple or easy about it, it’s all about who rules over others.

Any class can run a DoT build as effectively as a DK, no other class can rip 28k from a player with cap resistance in two attacks while wearing Order’s Wrath and Rallying Cry, not even a corrosive DK.

Bushido2513

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

Dk is closer to king if not the king because it's easier to pick up and play.

We have vastly different definitions of what a king is. There is nothing simple or easy about it, it’s all about who rules over others.

Any class can run a DoT build as effectively as a DK, no other class can rip 28k from a player with cap resistance in two attacks while wearing Order’s Wrath and Rallying Cry, not even a corrosive DK.

Ok so if you want to go that route then in that scenario the dk would just hold block and heal and will easily be able to pop ults to defend itself while at the same time still being somewhat offensive.

So if you want to say NB has the highest single target damage then sure big whoop but Dk has better potential in all scenarios to EASILY last the whole fight and possibly still get the kill.

But ok let's take skill out of it and say players are evenly matched. In this case it would be close to a stalemate because yes the NB pulls off hard hitting combos but the dk can pretty much block and recover from them while still having a good damage.

In 1vx I think they are rated similar though the dk has the easy advantage of recovery and aoe damage so kills can be a little easier for the less experienced player while NB can take out each for easier but requires more skill to string the combos together and live.

In group play, well you see where this is going.

I'd rank other classes lower because they either don't have the same level of easy recovery or damage potential all in one like these two do.


But yeah if you want to say King of single target damage then I can't disagree and if that's your play style then yeah it would be king.

I prefer the more well rounded Dk if I'm giving out crowns for top tier but I certainly get your point.

Cast_El

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

DK is the strongest and other classes are garbage in PvP.
I think people who want to nerf NB lack PvP experience.

Yes Dk is king 👑 . But not every other classes are garbage, they are not overtuned like DK

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

I spend most of my time in IC (nightblade city) so I am well aware of the spec bow. I usually don't get easy ganked, but that's not the point.
Like I say earlier: spec bow is a more important issue than cloak. Dk is king and NB is the queen. Nb don't need rotation, they almost have instant kill ability.

demonology89

[snip]

At this point in the game, streak's ramping cost should have been axed patches ago. There is no reasonable argument to keep streak in its current state.

Now we have a vocal group on these forums crying for a ramping cost to be added to cloak? If you can't hard counter a nb this late in the game, that's on you and you alone. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Bushido2513

Cast_El wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

I can see there is so much NB main over here.

"We are the most op class with DK, please let us be" 🤣 .

Cloak is good and can be counter, not every times though.
But spectral bow and shade are more broken skill in my opinion.

People seems upset because they don't success to kill NB.
Either way the problem with nightblade is elsewhere, they used to be squishy and hit hard, but they hit hard and are not squishy for a year now. The minor resolve added to vigor help NB a lot.

Ramping cost to cloak why not, but that's won't fix the NB over performing problem.
And NB player : don't be scared, you will be fine, like always ^^... Until you met me in IC

DK is the strongest and other classes are garbage in PvP.
I think people who want to nerf NB lack PvP experience.

Yes Dk is king 👑 . But not every other classes are garbage, they are not overtuned like DK

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

I spend most of my time in IC (nightblade city) so I am well aware of the spec bow. I usually don't get easy ganked, but that's not the point.
Like I say earlier: spec bow is a more important issue than cloak. Dk is king and NB is the queen. Nb don't need rotation, they almost have instant kill ability.

Rather than king and queen I'd say they are both s tier with dk ranked higher because of ease of use and more applications overall.

Spec bow is meh to me being that this game makes it very easy to dodge telegraphed single target attacks. Not saying that it doesn't hit hard or that it shouldn't be looked at, just that for me it's not the single answer to tuning NB.

PhoenixGrey

DrNukenstein wrote: »

On cloak and shadow image, shadow image is not a get out of jail free card. It is an investment in an escape route and also a a very high "headspace" move

I do consider playing sorc more braindead than NB these days. A typical sorc is health capped running 3 proc sets. Press 3 buttons and steak off.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Getting hit by a 20k Spec Bow followed by an 8k Concealed Weapon while over 33k resistance tends to change your opinion of which class is king.

Dk is closer to king if not the king because it's easier to pick up and play.

For instance a lesser Dk could probably tank a nb for a bit and still have the damage to possibly kill them with some of the fairly easy combos.

A lesser nb would have damage but might not understand how to build it up and put it together without dying against a dk.

Not to say that nb doesn't have great defense and heals, just take more effort than is required by the dk for similar effect.

I believe for a really skilled player nb will most definitely be god mode.

Nb can kite the hell out of zergs like no other class can. And the best part is it doesn’t need to take any damage while doing so.