Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

infunite

Please consider adding a ramping cost to the Shadowy Disguise morph of the Nightblade's Shadow Cloak, like there is for streak and mist form. Currently, it is already far too spammable. In this PTS preview, we see that it has been given a substantial buff. Now that it will be able to provide Major Savagery and Prophecy for slotting on either bar, I think it is more than fair that its cloaking utility get some penalty for spamming it too much. A simple ramping cost like there is for streak and mist form is perfect to keep its identity as a nightblade's defense/mobility/get away mechanism (just like streak and mist form are) while making sure it isn't as spammable as it is now.

It's far too easy for nightblades to hit cloak and maneuver around. Especially with positional desync, it's not reliable to predict where the nightblade went or will be. Detect pots having a larger radius does help, but a nightblade can move very far in a very short amount of time, so they can easily wait out the detect duration while staying out of reach. Additionally, using a detect potion means losing your normal potion (usually tri-stat potion, crit potions, or heroism potions). So it is a hefty investment. Skills like magelight and camo hunter simply cost too much and have next to no range.

Please add a ramping cost to cloak!

Weckless

Im not against this. But none of those examples you gave reduce cloaks cost lol.

infunite

Weckless wrote: »

Im not against this. But none of those examples you gave reduce cloaks cost lol.

Ah, I thought sneak and cloaking were the same thing. Will edit my original post, thanks.

Panderbander

The Imperial race, sets like Telvanni Efficiency, and cost reduction glyphs can all reduce the cost but none of those will have a broken effect on Invis.

That said, I agree that it and other disengage effects like it should be consistent in their costing.

relog

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

Tyrant_Tim

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

There are countless ways to counter Streak and Mist Form, every stamina weapon skill line has a gap closer, most classes have a magicka gap closer, there are several abilities that give Expedition, and you can build into movement speed on your jewelry or on your sets. You could always completely counter Streak or Mist Form by using any ranged weapon, speaking of which, Bow just got a crazy buff.

There are more counters to Streak and Mist Form than Shadowy Disguise, especially after they changed it so you can cloak through ground based AoE, after allowing you to cloak through DoTs.

Once we start seeing more readily available cases of “Increase Detection Radius by X” then the argument can be made, because right now it’s not good faith.

React

Absolutely agree, shadowy disguise needs a ramping cost just like streak and roll dodge.

Alharion

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

relog

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

There are countless ways to counter Streak and Mist Form, every stamina weapon skill line has a gap closer, most classes have a magicka gap closer, there are several abilities that give Expedition, and you can build into movement speed on your jewelry or on your sets. You could always completely counter Streak or Mist Form by using any ranged weapon, speaking of which, Bow just got a crazy buff.

There are more counters to Streak and Mist Form than Shadowy Disguise, especially after they changed it so you can cloak through ground based AoE, after allowing you to cloak through DoTs.

Once we start seeing more readily available cases of “Increase Detection Radius by X” then the argument can be made, because right now it’s not good faith.

Its pointless to argue with you if you really think that gap closer is counter to Streak and Mist Form. Its just not, even in terms of escaping out with Streak and Mist Form, cause this game have line of sight.

What is really countless - the number of ways that you can reveal enemy stealth.

Tyrant_Tim

Alharion wrote: »

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

With the new Cloak change, try throwing on Blur with it instead of Camo Hunter, it gives you 20% AoE mitigation and free roll dodge cost reduction up to 100%.

Roll dodge is the best form of damage prevention in the whole game, behind Cloak, of course.

Tyrant_Tim

relog wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

There are countless ways to counter Streak and Mist Form, every stamina weapon skill line has a gap closer, most classes have a magicka gap closer, there are several abilities that give Expedition, and you can build into movement speed on your jewelry or on your sets. You could always completely counter Streak or Mist Form by using any ranged weapon, speaking of which, Bow just got a crazy buff.

There are more counters to Streak and Mist Form than Shadowy Disguise, especially after they changed it so you can cloak through ground based AoE, after allowing you to cloak through DoTs.

Once we start seeing more readily available cases of “Increase Detection Radius by X” then the argument can be made, because right now it’s not good faith.

Its pointless to argue with you if you really think that gap closer is counter to Streak and Mist Form. Its just not, even in terms of escaping out with Streak and Mist Form, cause this game have line of sight.

What is really countless - the number of ways that you can reveal enemy stealth.

Does Streak have a larger range than any gap closer in the game?

Fighting anyone Line-of-Sighting is your real problem. It doesn’t matter what class you’re playing, if someone doing that doesn’t want to die, they won’t.

Thank Race Against Time and all of the other Snare and Root removal abilities.

katorga

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

There are countless ways to counter Streak and Mist Form, every stamina weapon skill line has a gap closer, most classes have a magicka gap closer, there are several abilities that give Expedition, and you can build into movement speed on your jewelry or on your sets. You could always completely counter Streak or Mist Form by using any ranged weapon, speaking of which, Bow just got a crazy buff.

There are more counters to Streak and Mist Form than Shadowy Disguise, especially after they changed it so you can cloak through ground based AoE, after allowing you to cloak through DoTs.

Once we start seeing more readily available cases of “Increase Detection Radius by X” then the argument can be made, because right now it’s not good faith.

Its pointless to argue with you if you really think that gap closer is counter to Streak and Mist Form. Its just not, even in terms of escaping out with Streak and Mist Form, cause this game have line of sight.

What is really countless - the number of ways that you can reveal enemy stealth.

Does Streak have a larger range than any gap closer in the game?

Fighting anyone Line-of-Sighting is your real problem. It doesn’t matter what class you’re playing, if someone doing that doesn’t want to die, they won’t.

Thank Race Against Time and all of the other Snare and Root removal abilities.

Streak is an offensive tool, mostly useless for escape unless you are already well over 22m away.

Jaimeh

No, people use cloak for other things than ganking in PvP (not to mention the new class is basically a cloak counter in its entirety).

Tyrant_Tim

katorga wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

There are countless ways to counter Streak and Mist Form, every stamina weapon skill line has a gap closer, most classes have a magicka gap closer, there are several abilities that give Expedition, and you can build into movement speed on your jewelry or on your sets. You could always completely counter Streak or Mist Form by using any ranged weapon, speaking of which, Bow just got a crazy buff.

There are more counters to Streak and Mist Form than Shadowy Disguise, especially after they changed it so you can cloak through ground based AoE, after allowing you to cloak through DoTs.

Once we start seeing more readily available cases of “Increase Detection Radius by X” then the argument can be made, because right now it’s not good faith.

Its pointless to argue with you if you really think that gap closer is counter to Streak and Mist Form. Its just not, even in terms of escaping out with Streak and Mist Form, cause this game have line of sight.

What is really countless - the number of ways that you can reveal enemy stealth.

Does Streak have a larger range than any gap closer in the game?

Fighting anyone Line-of-Sighting is your real problem. It doesn’t matter what class you’re playing, if someone doing that doesn’t want to die, they won’t.

Thank Race Against Time and all of the other Snare and Root removal abilities.

Streak is an offensive tool, mostly useless for escape unless you are already well over 22m away.

Unblockable Stun vs Guaranteed Crit

If you want to talk about offense capability, we can get really into detail about how much better Cloak is and how it warrants the ramping cost.

Great players know how to work around ramping costs, unless you’re a bow ganker or a troll, you should be fine.

Foxtrot39

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

With the new Cloak change, try throwing on Blur with it instead of Camo Hunter, it gives you 20% AoE mitigation and free roll dodge cost reduction up to 100%.

Roll dodge is the best form of damage prevention in the whole game, behind Cloak, of course.

You have to get hit 10 times to have a free dodge roll, any NB would be dead after the 5th hit

Tyrant_Tim

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

With the new Cloak change, try throwing on Blur with it instead of Camo Hunter, it gives you 20% AoE mitigation and free roll dodge cost reduction up to 100%.

Roll dodge is the best form of damage prevention in the whole game, behind Cloak, of course.

You have to get hit 10 tiem to havea free dodge roll, any NB would be dead after the 5th hit

I play a Nightblade, it’s my 2nd most played class, you’re exaggerating. They make phenomenal off-tanks, so I don’t know where you got that from.

There are so many different ways to lower your opponent’s damage through class skills that no other class has access to, like both Major and Minor Cowardice.

You’re right about getting hit 10 times though, so you’re regularly getting free cost reduction up to 100% on roll dodge, if someone animation cancels any basic attack into a direct damage attack, you got 20% free roll dodge reduction which you can save to keep building the stacks by cloaking, like how if they added ramping cloak costs you could roll an extra time to reset the cost ramp.

reazea

I think ramping cost for cloak is a perfect solution to the cloak spammers in PvP. It makes even more sense now with the buffs coming to NB's with U39.

Foxtrot39

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

With the new Cloak change, try throwing on Blur with it instead of Camo Hunter, it gives you 20% AoE mitigation and free roll dodge cost reduction up to 100%.

Roll dodge is the best form of damage prevention in the whole game, behind Cloak, of course.

You have to get hit 10 tiem to havea free dodge roll, any NB would be dead after the 5th hit

I play a Nightblade, it’s my 2nd most played class, you’re exaggerating. They make phenomenal off-tanks, so I don’t know where you got that from.

There are so many different ways to lower your opponent’s damage through class skills that no other class has access to, like both Major and Minor Cowardice.

You’re right about getting hit 10 times though, so you’re regularly getting free cost reduction up to 100% on roll dodge, if someone animation cancels any basic attack into a direct damage attack, you got 20% free roll dodge reduction which you can save to keep building the stacks by cloaking, like how if they added ramping cloak costs you could roll an extra time to reset the cost ramp.

Im talking from the perspective of a ganker using the free dodge roll in PVP (because thats the main complain area with NB), that would require you to take 10 hits under around 20s and I doubt any ganker can do that

I'm a NB tank myself and run vet trial as MT (not for HM yet tho)

Tyrant_Tim

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

With the new Cloak change, try throwing on Blur with it instead of Camo Hunter, it gives you 20% AoE mitigation and free roll dodge cost reduction up to 100%.

Roll dodge is the best form of damage prevention in the whole game, behind Cloak, of course.

You have to get hit 10 tiem to havea free dodge roll, any NB would be dead after the 5th hit

I play a Nightblade, it’s my 2nd most played class, you’re exaggerating. They make phenomenal off-tanks, so I don’t know where you got that from.

There are so many different ways to lower your opponent’s damage through class skills that no other class has access to, like both Major and Minor Cowardice.

You’re right about getting hit 10 times though, so you’re regularly getting free cost reduction up to 100% on roll dodge, if someone animation cancels any basic attack into a direct damage attack, you got 20% free roll dodge reduction which you can save to keep building the stacks by cloaking, like how if they added ramping cloak costs you could roll an extra time to reset the cost ramp.

Im talking from the perspective of a ganker using the free dodge roll in PVP (because thats the main complain area with NB), that would require you to take 10 hits under around 20s and I doubt any ganker can do that

I'm a NB tank myself and run vet trial as MT (not for HM yet tho)

Nightblade tanking is a blast, although after extensive testing, thrives best in dungeons.

You can make it work in trials, but without the health based burst heal, it feels more work than it’s worth, not saying the class needs one, I just feel that Dark Cloak isn’t enough. There has to be a better way to tackle the problem without giving Nightblade another health-based heal.

IncultaWolf

Hmm, so if these buffs to cloak go through, I'd be fine with shadowy disguise having a ramping cost like streak and roll dodge. Gotta balance out the new crit bonus somehow right?

Tyrant_Tim

This is how easy it is to manage your magicka on a Nord StamBlade in PTS with no sustain sets or mundus…

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AtD-fD8rqEfvlx9cctD3WgR0W1Oy

what you didn’t see, was me playing peak-a-boo with that other Nightblade with cloak for a few minutes prior.

Sustain is so casual on Nightblade it’s almost insulting.

Priyasekarssk

Dude come on. ZOs never nerf nightblades. Class is easy mode on steroids. Entire balance team is full of nightblades. Dk and NB best noob class. Don’t waste time complaining NB and dk. Instead complain about mage sorc.

ShadowProc

Umm. No. [snip] Too many counters to list AGAIN.

[edited for baiting]

Ringeren

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

Alchimiste1

As a nb I support a ramp up cost to cloak

Alchimiste1

Alharion wrote: »

So we've lost a lot of criticism? and now they're trying to stop us playing our spec? so in 2023 we're well on the way to killing off the black blade class?

Are you really that bad?

NB has no real shield, no 5K shield, or excessive resistance, so stop being so hard on NB !!!?

if the new cloak changes go through, you have the ability to slot so many escape and defense mechanisms with no damage loss. The very least they could do is apply a ramp up cost increase to cloak

RevJJ

Can we get a sticky to compile all the “nerf cloak” threads? Then all the DKs can get together and complain about how OP cloak is while 50% of the pvp population is a DK.

StaticWave

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP

Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Mayrael

Streak, Mist Form, and Roll Dodge (which are the only things with ramping cost) are not like Cloak. Their main purpose is to move the player from point A to point B. That is why they have increasing costs, because originally they allowed players to move from one keep to another in Cyrodiil without any interruption, making it simply and objectively impossible to catch such a player. This approach is based on PAST EXPERIENCE.

On the other hand, Cloak has many counters (both preventing its use and interrupting it) and does not affect the player's position.

What does this mean? Let's assume that we only use this one skill for defense, without moving or healing. The defender and attacker stand 5 meters apart - after all, we are comparing the potential of two skills, not entire classes, etc.

Scenario 1: The attacker uses ranged single target.

Cloak. An NB using Cloak does not take damage until their resources are depleted. Considering the significantly higher cost of Cloak compared to any spammable, and the fact that maintaining Cloak consumes resources continuously while waiting for the opportunity to attack does not, the defender ultimately dies.

Streak. The defender will receive a maximum of three initial hits and then be out of the attacker's range. The defender survives.

BoL, Mist Form, Roll Dodge. The defender does not take damage and is out of range. The defender survives.

Scenario 2: The attacker uses melee single target.

Cloak. The situation is the same as before. The defender dies.

Streak. The defender will receive a maximum of one initial hit and then be out of the attacker's range. The defender survives.

BoL, Mist Form. The defender will receive a maximum of one initial hit and then be out of the attacker's range. The defender survives.

Roll Dodge. The defender does not take damage and is out of the attacker's range. The defender survives.

Scenario 3: The attacker uses ranged AoE.

Cloak. The defender takes all the damage. The defender dies.

Streak, BoL, Mist Form, Roll Dodge. The defender will receive a maximum of three initial hits and then be out of the attacker's range. The defender survives.

Scenario 4: The attacker uses PB AoE.

Cloak. The defender takes all the damage. The defender dies.

Streak, BoL, Mist Form, Roll Dodge. The defender will receive a maximum of one initial hit and then be out of the attacker's range. The defender survives.

Is there anything else I need to explain? Cloak, in its functioning, is more similar to heals and shields than to Streak/BoL, Mist Form, or Roll Dodge. Fortunately, the developers are aware of this, and player acceptance is not required.

Mayrael

For anyone who has the courage to prove their claims, I propose an experiment. Let's meet on the PTS. Characters cannot use any sets, consumables, or CP, just naked characters with all the available skills for them (tomake sure its about skills), and then we try to escape an NB from a Sorc and a Sorc from an NB. Is anyone willing to participate in the testing?

Tyrant_Tim

@Mayrael, put Ambush on where you had Camo Hunter and you’ll be on top of the Sorcerer all day, what else is there to test?

I’m at Belkarth right now if you want some duels, but I’m not doing all of that redundant extra stuff.

I’ll be on a MagSorc.