[NOT LONGER REQUESTED] Option to NOT collect Tel'var stones

AnduinTryggva

Vulkunne wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Care to share your knowledge?

Like: Oh there is knowledge but it is secret!!! It is hard won knowledge and I cannot share. But you know... The usual gate keeping attitude.

It's like "with the right build you do fine but you don't find these builds on internet and I won't tell you what build you need." Gate keeping.
And fighting that nothing changes because the current situation fits best.

I don't mind sharing information with those who are willing to learn. But many already know everything they want to know.

Prove it that you like to share knowledge

I know for a fact that some of us do come on the forums and in zone chat, as well, in order to 'try' and help shed some light on certain things in order to help educate those who have questions or are making really blatant and sometimes embarrassing mistakes.

Having crossed this particular bridge before, I feel there's a sort of difference here between helping someone understand how gameplay works in IC and in giving away really valuable insight that comes from experience. Personally, I don't feel we should have to do that. Alot of times you have some out there who really don't care they are just looking for a nerf angle or some way to 'get back at' those they loathe. I'm not saying that about anyone here per say I'm just saying.

So no, the tools of the trade and such aren't there for everyone to gawk at and chastise over, and as a quester, farmer and ganker, I feel obligated to no one really. Many of us are solo too, solo players, uh so you have to understand we became this way for reasons. Choice is everything you know, its all about choice. If you want to know more than you have a choice to walk alone or sit in a nice cumfy zerg while someone else does all the work.

Hah, I hate to be like that but that's how it is. Ganking comes with being solo and it takes a certain skill level to run IC without a group. Its not for the faint of heart and learning this fine art is not for the weak because you will not last long. As some on here have said, "gank me if you dare". Just because someone gets attacked doesn't mean they will lose right? That's the thing about IC and one of the wonderful things that makes IC so different, so engaging.

Everyone has to choose and whatever you choose to do, do your best at it and the pay check will follow. But its a conflict of interest to try and do two jobs, two different roles so no need for that. And I feel no need really to explain why or how I play the game this way, aside from the many many groups who throttled me out of the group because their friend wanted to join, or thought I wasn't good enough or any other selfish reason. Groups leaving people behind intentionally, you know, there's a whole 'nother side here and of the people I know who also solo IC, none of us wants to go back to that.

If you need someone to lean on then a group is fine but someone frequently going in with a group, possibly a guild or what not is not going to need to know the other side of things, nor do they care. And that's the point.

So this lengthy post to say that you don't wanna share your knowledge while a while ago you said you're always ready to share your knowledge...

Muizer

kargen27 wrote: »

"What I'm having a problem with is the notion that everyone is apparently obligated to be carrying TV on their characters so the spiteful gankers and bombers won't be denied their deserved rewards."

I read through most the posts again and nobody is saying that. One person keeps trying to equate banking Telvar with not getting any Telvar. Most people in this thread in fact suggests banking your Telvar is the solution. I didn't see one post where a player suggested others are obligated to carry Telvar.
There is a difference in not wanting to gain any Telvar so others can't collect them on your death and taking your Telvar back to the bank. One is participating in the game as intended and the other is asking for a change out of pure spite. The opening post admits it is out of spite.

Gankers only deserve your Telvar if they kill you while you are carrying those Telvar around. If you make it to the bank and deposit them you won that round. Enjoy your bounty and protect it by banking your Telvar.

Exactly. Tel Var is a risk-reward system. It's about odds, not guarantees.

The argument that it is already possible a player carries no TV after banking and that therefore the option not to collect any TV to begin with makes no difference is like saying "it's already possible your lead won't drop from a WB, so you have nothing to complain about if we lower the odds".

Anyway, as has been stated, this can't possibly be implemented this way without compromising a fundamental game mechanism. If a large proportion of players turns collecting Tel Var off, it will not just affect the OP's 'griefers' but PVP as a whole.

To address the specific griefer scenario would require putting caps on how much and player A can take from player B and how often. I'd have no objections to that, but I have my doubts about the feasibility of the bookkeeping required to keep track of that.

Grizzbeorn

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So this lengthy post to say that you don't wanna share your knowledge while a while ago you said you're always ready to share your knowledge...

You are misquoting.
It was Jaraal who said he wouldn't mind sharing, not Vulkunne...

Jaraal wrote: »

I don't mind sharing information with those who are willing to learn. But many already know everything they want to know.

emilyhyoyeon

Diminish wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Current, if your district owns a district you don't want to be in:
1: you die, and respawn in the wrong district (load screen)
2: enter the trapdoor to sewers (load screen)
3: go back up the ladder to the district you want (load screen)

without being forced to respawn at a district:
1: you die, and respawn at sewers (load screen)
2: go back up the ladder to the district you want (load screen)


And yes, that is what I'm saying. Change the way respawn works so the player has more control.

If you die, and load into a different district, just run through the districts back to the one you want to be in. Why go into the sewer, run back to the base, and go up a ladder to the district you want to be in? What if you are on say an AD character, and respawn in Elven Gardens? That is a long run back through the sewers to your alliance base. It's at most 3 doors away from any other district, and 0 additional load screens if you stay topside.

It's not going through the sewers. It's going through the trapdoor to the sewers base, which is probably faster than running to the district.

And for people who are trying to avoid PVP as much as possible, dropping through the trapdoor instead of running through enemy districts is better, yes.

IDK how many more times I need to explain this.

If you don't want improvements, that's your prerogative I guess, but IMO there is no reason to not rework the spawn system that isn't that great atm.

Vulkunne

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Care to share your knowledge?

Like: Oh there is knowledge but it is secret!!! It is hard won knowledge and I cannot share. But you know... The usual gate keeping attitude.

It's like "with the right build you do fine but you don't find these builds on internet and I won't tell you what build you need." Gate keeping.
And fighting that nothing changes because the current situation fits best.

I don't mind sharing information with those who are willing to learn. But many already know everything they want to know.

Prove it that you like to share knowledge

I know for a fact that some of us do come on the forums and in zone chat, as well, in order to 'try' and help shed some light on certain things in order to help educate those who have questions or are making really blatant and sometimes embarrassing mistakes.

Having crossed this particular bridge before, I feel there's a sort of difference here between helping someone understand how gameplay works in IC and in giving away really valuable insight that comes from experience. Personally, I don't feel we should have to do that. Alot of times you have some out there who really don't care they are just looking for a nerf angle or some way to 'get back at' those they loathe. I'm not saying that about anyone here per say I'm just saying.

So no, the tools of the trade and such aren't there for everyone to gawk at and chastise over, and as a quester, farmer and ganker, I feel obligated to no one really. Many of us are solo too, solo players, uh so you have to understand we became this way for reasons. Choice is everything you know, its all about choice. If you want to know more than you have a choice to walk alone or sit in a nice cumfy zerg while someone else does all the work.

Hah, I hate to be like that but that's how it is. Ganking comes with being solo and it takes a certain skill level to run IC without a group. Its not for the faint of heart and learning this fine art is not for the weak because you will not last long. As some on here have said, "gank me if you dare". Just because someone gets attacked doesn't mean they will lose right? That's the thing about IC and one of the wonderful things that makes IC so different, so engaging.

Everyone has to choose and whatever you choose to do, do your best at it and the pay check will follow. But its a conflict of interest to try and do two jobs, two different roles so no need for that. And I feel no need really to explain why or how I play the game this way, aside from the many many groups who throttled me out of the group because their friend wanted to join, or thought I wasn't good enough or any other selfish reason. Groups leaving people behind intentionally, you know, there's a whole 'nother side here and of the people I know who also solo IC, none of us wants to go back to that.

If you need someone to lean on then a group is fine but someone frequently going in with a group, possibly a guild or what not is not going to need to know the other side of things, nor do they care. And that's the point.

So this lengthy post to say that you don't wanna share your knowledge while a while ago you said you're always ready to share your knowledge...

But didn't I just do that? And in doing so you haven't changed a bit. Like I said, you can't have it both ways. Either be critical and continue to doubt or sit down and start listening. Teacher and student is mutual exclusive relationship and the first step in understanding something is admitting you don't know. But being really sharp and critical implies that you know more than others who might could 'share their knowledge'. There's a big difference between having questions and looking for fault. One is trying to understand, the other has an agenda.

You decide for you, I've made my choice to help others in understanding things but its different story being forced to fit into someone else's agenda.

Vulkunne

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So this lengthy post to say that you don't wanna share your knowledge while a while ago you said you're always ready to share your knowledge...

You are misquoting.
It was Jaraal who said he wouldn't mind sharing, not Vulkunne...

Jaraal wrote: »

I don't mind sharing information with those who are willing to learn. But many already know everything they want to know.

Actually I have said something similar in the past so, he's in the right neighborhood. But good catch, I'm not replying for Jaraal either I'm just contributing something because this sort of thing has come up before with people wanting to know things but then many of them (perhaps not all) only want to know for juvenile reasons rather than make actual changes themselves.

Grizzbeorn

Vulkunne wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So this lengthy post to say that you don't wanna share your knowledge while a while ago you said you're always ready to share your knowledge...

You are misquoting.
It was Jaraal who said he wouldn't mind sharing, not Vulkunne...

Jaraal wrote: »

I don't mind sharing information with those who are willing to learn. But many already know everything they want to know.

Actually I have said something similar in the past so, he's in the right neighborhood. But good catch, I'm not replying for Jaraal either I'm just contributing something because this sort of thing has come up before with people wanting to know things but then many of them (perhaps not all) only want to know for juvenile reasons rather than make actual changes themselves.

Ah, ok. I just assumed he got you and Jaraal mixed-up in this thread while maybe attempting to catch someone in a "gotcha" moment.

Vulkunne

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So this lengthy post to say that you don't wanna share your knowledge while a while ago you said you're always ready to share your knowledge...

You are misquoting.
It was Jaraal who said he wouldn't mind sharing, not Vulkunne...

Jaraal wrote: »

I don't mind sharing information with those who are willing to learn. But many already know everything they want to know.

Actually I have said something similar in the past so, he's in the right neighborhood. But good catch, I'm not replying for Jaraal either I'm just contributing something because this sort of thing has come up before with people wanting to know things but then many of them (perhaps not all) only want to know for juvenile reasons rather than make actual changes themselves.

Ah, ok. I just assumed he got you and Jaraal mixed-up in this thread while maybe attempting to catch someone in a "gotcha" moment.

Speaking of which I had a 'gotcha moment' in IC the other day. For someone who doesn't like surprises it was pretty cool.

Alright then back to the show...

AnduinTryggva

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the toolset of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the one of the other IC campains and EP is now alone in that specific campain. Well done...

I think when ZOS designed IC they did not consider the malicious nature of some players and the fun they draw from it.

AnduinTryggva

And now they swamp also the other campains to base camp ad and driving everybody out.

Anyhow it is bad pvp map design to have one single entry to the save space. I know that one has the token but it is quite expensive.

VaranisArano

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

AnduinTryggva

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

jaws343

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

It's not griefing though. The counterplay is for you to learn how to beat them, or bring more numbers. Or go through a ladder to a district and use another door to get where you need to go. Or hide in a corner and use an imperial retreat to go back to base.

Lot's of options that don't consist of throwing yourself at pvpers pvping.

Marcus684

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the toolset of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the one of the other IC campains and EP is now alone in that specific campain. Well done...

I think when ZOS designed IC they did not consider the malicious nature of some players and the fun they draw from it.

It feels so unfair because it's the strong preying on the weak, and in our modern real life society we have systems in place to protect the weak from the strong. In PvP there is no police force to do this as it's a war zone, so the strong have free rein to gang up on those who aren't geared up for and practiced at PvP. In years past there was usually enough population in IC that the actual PvPers could pause their activities, bank their telvar, and team up to get rid of the base campers.

Unfortunately, these days the skilled PvPers don't seem to want to bother with it and would rather jump to a different campaign and avoid the gank squads. I see the same mentality in Cyrodiil, where most of the veteran players don't want to put forth the effort to kick a group of tower farmers out of a resource that are threatening an important keep. They leave it to the noobs and the few vets that care about the score to deal with it, usually to get killed over and over again until the keep is finally lit and the rest of the faction is forced to finally respond.

Keep in mind that there are ways around this, as others have pointed out. You use a recall stone to get back to the sewer base. Better yet, you can hide in a corner long enough to queue up for a low pop Cyrodiil campaign to escape IC, then queue back into IC to get to the base.

Learning how to compensate for the actions of players you don't like is likely going to be your best bet, because I think the chances of ZOS granting your request for no telvar gains to be somewhere between slim and none.

Tonturri

I would like to re-up my suggestion that you can only gain TV from player kills up to a maximum of the number of TV you had on you at the time of the kill, with an added calculation that decreases your TV loss (or increases your TV loss) based on how many people you're fighting. So if you're in a 1v2 and you have 1000 TV while your two enemies have 100 TV and you die, your opponent only gets 100 TV / 2, and the reverse if you kill one ( 2x ).

VaranisArano

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

No...the base campers don't deny this game mode to other players.

Did you read past the first part down to the third where I explained all the other options that the camped players have to ignore the campers and get out or get back in via other methods? You don't have to use the camped tunnel at all.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You aren't entitled to safe passage in and out of your sewer base through one specific campable tunnel. You have other options to accomplish your goals in Imperial City, and that's just for players who want to avoid conflict.

Frankly, if they're that annoying, I'd be very tempted to go tell my alliance mates there's a bunch of easy EP targets camping the base. A bomber or a group could easily drop down from the District's sewer entrance behind them and hit them when they aren't expecting resistance.

AnduinTryggva

Of course I can go to multiple load screens to avoid that. I guess however that this is just a work around and not an intented way.
Also your alliance needs to be populating the server to be of any help. Well, those base campers have taken care that the other alliances than their own remain empty.

jaws343

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Of course I can go to multiple load screens to avoid that. I guess however that this is just a work around and not an intented way.
Also your alliance needs to be populating the server to be of any help. Well, those base campers have taken care that the other alliances than their own remain empty.

It's not a work around. It is literally a function in the city. Retreat tokens were implemented to port back to base. Sewer entrances provide alternate means to enter exit the city, the sewers, and get back to base.

This is a PVP and PVE zone. You can't just choose to ignore that the PVP part of the zone is valid and intended because you don't like it.

VaranisArano

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Of course I can go to multiple load screens to avoid that. I guess however that this is just a work around and not an intented way.
Also your alliance needs to be populating the server to be of any help. Well, those base campers have taken care that the other alliances than their own remain empty.

Yes, going up into the Districts to get out of your base is absolutely an intended way to get around sewer conflicts near your entrance.

Who do you think designed Imperial City with one single campable tunnel/room leading in and out of your sewer base? I mean, seriously. Just look at this map. Single tunnels and choke points abound.

Who do you think designed Imperial City so that you could climb out of the Sewer Base into the Districts? Who designed the Districts so they have entrances and exits into different parts of the sewers?

Who do you think added the Sigil of Imperial Retreat to the game?

It wasn't PVPers!

.....

On a side note: you've been complaining about players who won't share their knowledge with you.

I think maybe it's time to consider that we've just shared multiple options for intended options to get around or deal with base campers.

We can share our knowledge, but we can't teach the flexibility and perseverance in the face of setbacks that it'll take to put it into action. If even a couple of loading screens is just too much...

AnduinTryggva

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Of course I can go to multiple load screens to avoid that. I guess however that this is just a work around and not an intented way.
Also your alliance needs to be populating the server to be of any help. Well, those base campers have taken care that the other alliances than their own remain empty.

Yes, going up into the Districts to get out of your base is absolutely an intended way to get around sewer conflicts near your entrance.

Who do you think designed Imperial City with one single campable tunnel/room leading in and out of your sewer base? I mean, seriously. Just look at this map. Single tunnels and choke points abound.

Who do you think designed Imperial City so that you could climb out of the Sewer Base into the Districts? Who designed the Districts so they have entrances and exits into different parts of the sewers?

Who do you think added the Sigil of Imperial Retreat to the game?

It wasn't PVPers!

.....

On a side note: you've been complaining about players who won't share their knowledge with you.

I think maybe it's time to consider that we've just shared multiple options for intended options to get around or deal with base campers.

We can share our knowledge, but we can't teach the flexibility and perseverance in the face of setbacks that it'll take to put it into action. If even a couple of loading screens is just too much...

You are distorting on purpose? One of the "way out" pointed out is queuing for Cyrodiil and then jumping back to IC campaign or another one...

VaranisArano

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Of course I can go to multiple load screens to avoid that. I guess however that this is just a work around and not an intented way.
Also your alliance needs to be populating the server to be of any help. Well, those base campers have taken care that the other alliances than their own remain empty.

Yes, going up into the Districts to get out of your base is absolutely an intended way to get around sewer conflicts near your entrance.

Who do you think designed Imperial City with one single campable tunnel/room leading in and out of your sewer base? I mean, seriously. Just look at this map. Single tunnels and choke points abound.

Who do you think designed Imperial City so that you could climb out of the Sewer Base into the Districts? Who designed the Districts so they have entrances and exits into different parts of the sewers?

Who do you think added the Sigil of Imperial Retreat to the game?

It wasn't PVPers!

.....

On a side note: you've been complaining about players who won't share their knowledge with you.

I think maybe it's time to consider that we've just shared multiple options for intended options to get around or deal with base campers.

We can share our knowledge, but we can't teach the flexibility and perseverance in the face of setbacks that it'll take to put it into action. If even a couple of loading screens is just too much...

You are distorting on purpose? One of the "way out" pointed out is queuing for Cyrodiil and then jumping back to IC campaign or another one...

If queuing is what you were talking about, then I misunderstood.

There's also multiple loading screens involved with going up the ladders into the districts, then back down into the Sewers to get around the campers. That's what I thought you were talking about. I hope that clarifies the source of my honest confusion.

Sorry about that!

If you don't like the idea of queuing up to get out, the Sigil of Imperial Retreat is the "intended" way to get back to your sewer base without engaging base campers. You buy it ahead of time for 10K AP, which should be pretty doable for anyone who's been picking up daily log-in rewards, and put it on your quickslots. Unlike the queue method, the Sigil's teleport can be interrupted by combat, so make sure you're in a safe place when you use it.

kargen27

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

and they would grief you whether you have Telvar or not. They are there for the kills or to just annoy other players. Unfortunately the best response for this can't always happen. Announce in zone that there are gankers and usually a few experienced PvP'rs will get rid of the problem. They aren't always available though so you are kind of stuck.

There is another solution but it involves two loading screens and I personally feel the option should be removed. You can queue for Cyrodiil, join that campaign and then queue back into Imperial City.

VaranisArano

kargen27 wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

and they would grief you whether you have Telvar or not. They are there for the kills or to just annoy other players. Unfortunately the best response for this can't always happen. Announce in zone that there are gankers and usually a few experienced PvP'rs will get rid of the problem. They aren't always available though so you are kind of stuck.

There is another solution but it involves two loading screens and I personally feel the option should be removed. You can queue for Cyrodiil, join that campaign and then queue back into Imperial City.

As we've mentioned above, you can also get back to your Sewer Base if you buy a Sigil of Imperial Retreat. One of the Base NPCs sells it for 10k AP, which should be doable for most PVEers who get their daily logins.

TaSheen

VaranisArano wrote: »

As we've mentioned above, you can also get back to your Sewer Base if you buy a Sigil of Imperial Retreat. One of the Base NPCs sells it for 10k AP, which should be doable for most PVEers who get their daily logins.

Yeah. Even I, who don't pvp any more at all, have a few of those hanging around. You never know....

kargen27

VaranisArano wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

and they would grief you whether you have Telvar or not. They are there for the kills or to just annoy other players. Unfortunately the best response for this can't always happen. Announce in zone that there are gankers and usually a few experienced PvP'rs will get rid of the problem. They aren't always available though so you are kind of stuck.

There is another solution but it involves two loading screens and I personally feel the option should be removed. You can queue for Cyrodiil, join that campaign and then queue back into Imperial City.

As we've mentioned above, you can also get back to your Sewer Base if you buy a Sigil of Imperial Retreat. One of the Base NPCs sells it for 10k AP, which should be doable for most PVEers who get their daily logins.

yes, and that takes planning ahead. If you forget your retreat sigil you can do the two loading screen jump as I described. And a two loading screen jump is much quicker (most the time) than the time it takes to earn 10K AP. Especially for someone that doesn't often venture into PvP activities.

jaws343

kargen27 wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Now right at this moment we have a gang of 5+ EP robbers griefing everybody at AD base entry in the sewers.

You have to pass by the districts on the way out. On the way in no chance. So far about "banking".

They are farming players that have to pass thru the bottle neck at sewers base entry. This is base camping which is part of the tool set of griefers.

Result: everyone from all the other alliances went to the on of the other IC campain and EP is now alone in that campain. Well done...

First, an explanation from a PVPer's point of view. Sounds to me like those EP players were killing people carrying Tel Var out for farming and in from farming, so they probably had a pretty nice haul going. And now that EP dominates that campaign, their own questers and Tel Var farmers theoretically have an easier shot (which conversely means that AD and DC bombers and gankers may head in looking for unwary EP players to target for their Tel Var).

You gotta remember that AvAvA PVP is inherently a three-way competition. When EP wins, DC and AD lose, and that's by design.

...........

Second, a defense of extremely common PVP behavior.

It may feel terribly unfair that a group of players has set themselves up in "your" area and you can't force them to go away with your current numbers and/or skill level. It feels unfun. It feels like your only option is to feed them AP/Tel Var or to walk away, and either way it feels like they won.

Well, remember, AvAvA PVP is a three-way competition. It's an allowed behavior. It's a common behavior. It's not considered griefing in a reportable manner, nor is it harassment if you go out to fight them multiple times and get killed multiple times. Just because it's not fun to lose a lot doesn't make losing a lot against the rules of the competition.

Am I talking about ball groups in Cyrodiil's keeps, Cyrodiil gatecamping where an alliance is literally pushed to their gates, Cyrodiil tower runners, or groups base camping in Imperial City?

Yes.

When you get tired of trying and failing to kill them, the legitimate PVP strategy is to walk away from a fight you can't win, and go around them to accomplish your goal another way.

........

Finally, a salute to the AD and DC players who left. Seriously, the actual constructive answer to an enemy you can't beat is exactly what happened. Walk away. Deny them easy kills. Go accomplish your ultimate goals another way.

Imperial City in particular has lots of workarounds.

You can go to another campaign. You can use a ladder to go to the Districts and play there. You can go into the Districts and drop down to the Sewers from there, behind the base campers. On your way in, you could use that Sigil of Imperial Retreat you bought beforehand or queue up for a different campaign and leave from there.

No one has to walk out or into their Sewer Base and face a group of enemy campers unless they've decided not to take advantage of the other options available to them.

You are full of understanding for base campers. But you understand that they deny other players to play this game mode in this way?

They've done it in that CP campagn and started to do it in the other CP campaign. One could go to no CP campaign there but that needs other builds.

This is griefing to base camp the bottle neck at base entry. Full stop. Nothing to gloss over here.

and they would grief you whether you have Telvar or not. They are there for the kills or to just annoy other players. Unfortunately the best response for this can't always happen. Announce in zone that there are gankers and usually a few experienced PvP'rs will get rid of the problem. They aren't always available though so you are kind of stuck.

There is another solution but it involves two loading screens and I personally feel the option should be removed. You can queue for Cyrodiil, join that campaign and then queue back into Imperial City.

Not only would they just kill anyways, there is literally a "kill x players" board in the home base for players to pick up those kill quests before venturing into the sewers. Pvp is absolutely intended in a pvp zone and being PvE only is not actually a thing in a zone you have to physically queue into, in a section of the UI dedicated to PVP.

maxxiestackhouse

I get the feeling that it’s not that he got ganked by a filthy disappearing TV farming weenie but probably more that they got ganked 30 odd times in one evening. I run the risk for the reward of TV quite often and yup I get bummed by a ganker sometimes and they get my TV, it’s IC it happens. What annoys me is that legit 1 min later before I’ve even had a chance to even start farming TV again I get ganker bummed again. Unless the ganker has “Kill 20 Templars” what is the point? Sure buddy you’ve proven that you’re good at pvp ganking pat pat good boy, but killing the same person 10-15 times in a row within 10 mins? Please show your micro peen elsewhere there are plenty of others to kill or hey come back in 10 mins when I’ve killed a boss and try and get me then.

AnduinTryggva

maxxiestackhouse wrote: »

I get the feeling that it’s not that he got ganked by a filthy disappearing TV farming weenie but probably more that they got ganked 30 odd times in one evening. I run the risk for the reward of TV quite often and yup I get bummed by a ganker sometimes and they get my TV, it’s IC it happens. What annoys me is that legit 1 min later before I’ve even had a chance to even start farming TV again I get ganker bummed again. Unless the ganker has “Kill 20 Templars” what is the point? Sure buddy you’ve proven that you’re good at pvp ganking pat pat good boy, but killing the same person 10-15 times in a row within 10 mins? Please show your micro peen elsewhere there are plenty of others to kill or hey come back in 10 mins when I’ve killed a boss and try and get me then.

This. This is the definition of griefing.

I know there are work arounds but what I don't understand is that some here defend the griefers as if griefing was the way the devs had in mind when they created IC.

fall0athboy

Put your Tel Var in the bank.

Muizer

maxxiestackhouse wrote: »

I get the feeling that it’s not that he got ganked by a filthy disappearing TV farming weenie but probably more that they got ganked 30 odd times in one evening. I run the risk for the reward of TV quite often and yup I get bummed by a ganker sometimes and they get my TV, it’s IC it happens. What annoys me is that legit 1 min later before I’ve even had a chance to even start farming TV again I get ganker bummed again. Unless the ganker has “Kill 20 Templars” what is the point? Sure buddy you’ve proven that you’re good at pvp ganking pat pat good boy, but killing the same person 10-15 times in a row within 10 mins? Please show your micro peen elsewhere there are plenty of others to kill or hey come back in 10 mins when I’ve killed a boss and try and get me then.

I think that's a legitimate complaint. It's just that the OP's suggestion seems to be born out of a reluctance to acknowledge IC as a PVP zone. After all, their suggestion would apply everywhere at any time, not just a bunch of veteran PVP ers working together to pick off anyone the moment they set foot in IC. It would take something more specific to address that particular issue.

How about making it impossible to resurrect a team mate near an enemy base (or maybe at all)? I think that would be a more targeted and effective counter measure.