Do "Heavy Attack" builds deserve that high damage?

chessalavakia_ESO

Soarora wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

TheHornet wrote: »

Lets talk about elitism!
Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.

So the developers of the game are elitists now themselves?

Sorry, but you should start to consider that you folks are the problem here, not the victims.

Most game development companies have hired players from the cream of the crop of the game itself or from the cream of the crop of other games to help develop them over the last couple decades.

As a result, most game development companies have a fair portion of their staff that at least in their day were elite.

If you look at ESO's design, I think it's pretty clear that ESO's developers lean towards being/having been elite and they struggle with developing content for people that aren't as skillful, knowledgeable, or as intelligent as they are.

I don’t see the point in what you’re saying here? I remember back when DLC was really hard for me and I’d get pugs where all of us are new and trying to figure out mechanics together. I still cleared dungeons, it was still fun. I had awful DPS at the time as well. The only problem I know of is DSR and RG HMs have very low completion rates because extremely high DPS checks.

For example, ESO's PVE combat design approach heavily rewards effort and skill.

The approach hit the issue that much of the actual audience for the game wasn't that good and combat could end up being a slog.

ZOS adjusted to this primarily by reducing the difficulty of content rather than doing much to shift the rewards for effort and skill.

This approach leaves the game in the position where much of the content is too easy solo if you are either skilled or well equipped and makes much of the lower difficulty group content get blown up in an unnatural fashion which limits the degree to which people experience the environments, story, and mechanics. This in turn leads to players arriving to Veteran Content unprepared which can lead to poor experiences and population shortages.

Billium813

My biggest issue with HA builds, at the moment, is how stagnant and how gimmicky they are. They rely almost entirely on the unique HA damage from Lightning Staff and HA sets that buff HA damage with flat damage values (something that ZOS has already recognized as being an issue and chosen to do nothing about)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7539805#Comment_7539805

Sergeant’s Mail: This set now adds 3031 Weapon and Spell Damage to your fully charged Heavy Attacks, rather than increasing their damage by 2257.

Developer Comment:
Sets like this one have all been adjusted off flat damage modifiers on these attacks due to the nature of how these values interact with additional bonuses, causing them to double dip in effects while other modifiers do not. Rather than outright nerfing these values to the point where they would never eclipse other bonuses, we've converted them into a bonus that can still be increased with some effects such as Major Brutality or Sorcery.

There is NO room for build diversity amongst HA builds what-so-ever. There are only 2-4 viable sets and only 1 viable weapon. ZOS's efforts to make HA builds viable are a joke. Lightning Staff is the ONLY viable HA damage weapon; being best for both single target and AOE cleave damage. Sergeant's Mail is the single best HA set due to how it interacts with Lightning Staff channel damage and the options past this one set are totally barren. Oakensoul is fairly standard HA build too, but it is possible to build a HA build without it and even do better than 1 bar HA builds. It's really just training wheels so I don't have too much issue with it atm

Here's some ideas to maybe help HA build diversity:

1. Remove Lightning Staves unique channel damage from being affected by HA flat damage buff sets. This can be done quite easily: Change all the "... increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by ..." sets to "... increasing the damage of your Fully Charged Heavy Attacks by ... " sets. This is going to really knock down Lightning Staves, and therefore HA builds in general, but sometimes you have to tear things down to build them up again! Keep reading on to see how we can build HA builds back to viability AND diversity!
2. Add more HA passives to other weapon types. Some examples:
   • Bow
     • Passive - Ricochet
       • Fully charged Heavy attacks, dealt at a close range (< 10m), damage up to 1 other nearby enemy for 100% of the damage inflicted to the primary target and stuns that enemy for 2 seconds.
   • Dual Wield
     • Passive - Run Through
       • Fully charged Heavy attacks damage enemies in front of you for 100% of the damage inflicted to the primary target
3. Rebalance all the weapons BASE HA damage values. These are the numbers that everything grows off of that's why it's SOOO important they be correct.
   • Inferno Staff and Bow should be the best single target HA weapons for damage. Bow can vary a bit based on distance from target, making passives change in utility and raw DPS values.
   • Dual Wield, Two Handed, and Lightning Staff should have strengths and weaknesses for damage if they are going to get multi-target damage and/or AOE. 2H could be the highest of the 3, but with limited multi-target damage. Dual Wield could be next in damage, but still somewhat limited in AOE range and scope. Lightning Staff would then be even lower in base damage given the range and full AOE cleave bonuses. Keep in mind that this ranking is minor. They are all comparable and can be somewhat close. But a difference of a few hundred damage at the base can balloon out to several thousand DPS difference later once sets and buffs are added!
   • Finally, Restoration, Ice staff, & Sword/Shield bring up the rear given their defensive and support leanings. Sword/Shield being much more resource oriented and less damage at all.
4. Buff Empower up to 120% and increase Fully Charged Heavy Attack sets damage modifiers! Now that Lightning Staff isn't the only kid on the block anymore and has been dropped SEVERAL pegs, it's only fair that pervasive bonuses like the Empower buff and the new Fully Charged Heavy Attacks sets, should be buffed to make HA builds more viable! The nice thing is that now, players have options and can build in several different ways! They aren't pigeonholed into 1 set choice, 1 weapon choice, and 1 mythic choice.

Braffin

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

TheHornet wrote: »

Lets talk about elitism!
Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.

So the developers of the game are elitists now themselves?

Sorry, but you should start to consider that you folks are the problem here, not the victims.

Most game development companies have hired players from the cream of the crop of the game itself or from the cream of the crop of other games to help develop them over the last couple decades.

As a result, most game development companies have a fair portion of their staff that at least in their day were elite.

If you look at ESO's design, I think it's pretty clear that ESO's developers lean towards being/having been elite and they struggle with developing content for people that aren't as skillful, knowledgeable, or as intelligent as they are.

I don’t see the point in what you’re saying here? I remember back when DLC was really hard for me and I’d get pugs where all of us are new and trying to figure out mechanics together. I still cleared dungeons, it was still fun. I had awful DPS at the time as well. The only problem I know of is DSR and RG HMs have very low completion rates because extremely high DPS checks.

For example, ESO's PVE combat design approach heavily rewards effort and skill.

The approach hit the issue that much of the actual audience for the game wasn't that good and combat could end up being a slog.

ZOS adjusted to this primarily by reducing the difficulty of content rather than doing much to shift the rewards for effort and skill.

This approach leaves the game in the position where much of the content is too easy solo if you are either skilled or well equipped and makes much of the lower difficulty group content get blown up in an unnatural fashion which limits the degree to which people experience the environments, story, and mechanics. This in turn leads to players arriving to Veteran Content unprepared which can lead to poor experiences and population shortages.

Well, I can agree here. Would definitely be better to shift rewards to normal mode. I also never understood why there aren't more challenging achievements like trifectas for normal mode.

Zastrix

I'm okay with having more content accessible. But there's a breaking point where it's just entitlement. If you want to do the harder content make a build which is flexible and does multiple things. LA weaving is like 15% of damage so t hat means if I pull 50k you pull 45.2k which isn't low. Holding a button down takes no skill. Harder content should require more skill and not being undermined because someone hurrdurr wants to hold one button down and do trifectas.

vMA was hard to do when I did it. Now you can accidentally do a perfected run while holding a single button down. Don't tell me that's not entitlement that you got a slight nerf.

Braffin

Zastrix wrote: »

I'm okay with having more content accessible. But there's a breaking point where it's just entitlement. If you want to do the harder content make a build which is flexible and does multiple things. LA weaving is like 15% of damage so t hat means if I pull 50k you pull 45.2k which isn't low. Holding a button down takes no skill. Harder content should require more skill and not being undermined because someone hurrdurr wants to hold one button down and do trifectas.

vMA was hard to do when I did it. Now you can accidentally do a perfected run while holding a single button down. Don't tell me that's not entitlement that you got a slight nerf.

Sometimes I think they have fun exactly in devaluing the content just to show us ""elitists".

Of course thats not the case. They just refuse to see how they kill off groupplay and it don't interest them. Everyone not being their opinion that it is fine to play one-button with infinite sustain is attacked as gatekeeper.

Maybe we should all just do that. Refuse them in any group. I for sure will. Nobody can force me to play with this selfish folk.

I mean, in all honesty, sergeant broakensorc isn't even playing the same game anymore.

BlueRaven

Braffin wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Let's allow the participation of autopiloted tesla cars in racing then, if you really wanna compare something to sergeant broakensorc

If in a race, the autopilot car is only doing 100mph (as the person you quoted says) the autopilot car will probably lose the race, since most race cars are usually way faster than that.

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Also HA is not auto pilot.

Daoin

Thats a good idea, i definately think if people dont want to group with HA builds then dont rather than ruin the game for more the majority of people. I cant really see anybody being bothered with somebody leaving a group that way especially because in game it would be so rare it would not even be noticed. and agreed it is not over performing as it is making it worse is not a good idea, i dont see how making something so popular worse is a good idea. and by making it worse especially in random groups is like saying we are now going to make content harder for everyone because the few dont like the way HA works. in dungeons when not on my HA build i pull my weight still just fine anyway and none of my acheivments, well maybe one or two slipped by, have been done with HA build, so why would i care that somebody else did it with a completely different build for better or worse as long as i did it my way ? in my opinion what is being said and i read it that way again and again, is people should not be allowed to pass through content they have been able to do themselves for years anyway, end of story

BlueRaven

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

TheHornet wrote: »

Lets talk about elitism!
Apparently ZOS and other players think that "Heavy Attack" builds do not deserve that high damage.

ZOS wrote:
Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

1. Top notch are players doing LA weaving, nearly like a maschine - they deserve their ranking
2- "Heavy Attack” players have fun and get their goals to easy (there has something to be done) (they need to sufer as we LA players did)
3. Tanks and healers are fine as supporters

I wish I could show ZOS my dislike, sadly I bought the new DLC.

So the developers of the game are elitists now themselves?

Sorry, but you should start to consider that you folks are the problem here, not the victims.

Most game development companies have hired players from the cream of the crop of the game itself or from the cream of the crop of other games to help develop them over the last couple decades.

As a result, most game development companies have a fair portion of their staff that at least in their day were elite.

If you look at ESO's design, I think it's pretty clear that ESO's developers lean towards being/having been elite and they struggle with developing content for people that aren't as skillful, knowledgeable, or as intelligent as they are.

I don’t see the point in what you’re saying here? I remember back when DLC was really hard for me and I’d get pugs where all of us are new and trying to figure out mechanics together. I still cleared dungeons, it was still fun. I had awful DPS at the time as well. The only problem I know of is DSR and RG HMs have very low completion rates because extremely high DPS checks.

For example, ESO's PVE combat design approach heavily rewards effort and skill.

The approach hit the issue that much of the actual audience for the game wasn't that good and combat could end up being a slog.

ZOS adjusted to this primarily by reducing the difficulty of content rather than doing much to shift the rewards for effort and skill.

This approach leaves the game in the position where much of the content is too easy solo if you are either skilled or well equipped and makes much of the lower difficulty group content get blown up in an unnatural fashion which limits the degree to which people experience the environments, story, and mechanics. This in turn leads to players arriving to Veteran Content unprepared which can lead to poor experiences and population shortages.

To me the answer is pretty simple. Cap upper end dps to be at most around 2 to 2.5 times the average (non competitive) players dps.

Suddenly all pve content is much easier to balance, and overland content becomes more challenging to the top end.

Players are not good at high end because of lack of “training”, it’s because things like weaving (etc) are not a fun way to play.

Go look at online forums discussing the game, go to mmo- champion, the verdict is pretty clear.

Eso, great game, but light attack weaving is horrible.

Here I will give you a link:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1743103-Megathread-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Tamriel-Unlimited/page213

Here are some choice quotes:

”The discussion is mostly about potential players; people who tried the game and left because they are gameplay first. ESO may not put out many raids; outside the first couple of years with Craglorn and then MoL, HoF, AS we just have one trial with very few bosses per year. But the game pumps out dungeons; 2 new dungeons every 6 months, all dungeons remain current and Veteran and Veteran HM dungeons have solid mechanics and are great challenges. Players from other MMOs could easily have found a home for their group play in ESO if the gameplay did not suck so bad.”

”I've been playing all this time and will continue to play for a while yet, for a variety of reasons, but its in spite of the combat this game has…”

”is worth pointing out that it's more than animation cancelling, it's kind of the whole package. it just feels bad.”

“Fair point, but to complete the vast majority of content (the story quests and and normal dungeons) you don't need to do weaving at all. So if that's your primary motivator for playing, you can enjoy it just fine.“

(These are all different forum posters btw.)

Players here seem to be in a walled off garden, surrounded by other players who just agree with them. The only players left playing eso are the ones who tolerate this poor combat system, and the ones that just do low dps and live with it.

Here is the crux of the problem ESO has, if they were to implement a training system for players to increase their dps, more people would leave the game than get better. Because the game would be confronting the average player about just how bad the combat system truly is.

Players with “effort and skill” are already rewarded enough. There are mountains of exclusive content just for them. Yet that siren call is not enough to get more players to see it unless there is a fundamental way combat can change, example; HA builds.

Zos should be widening the combat choices, make HA type builds available for all weapon types would be a great start.

Turtle_Bot

I'll propose an alternative question here.

Should traditional LA weaving builds be allowed to have such a huge gap between the floor and the ceiling? A gap where the floor is limited to only be allowed to participate in roughly 1/2 the game that they paid for (the same amount of money for the same game that the ceiling paid too btw) while the ceiling can rush through the majority of the game as if they had god-mode active, often skipping mechanics because their damage is so high.

So many complain about HA builds as being "autopilot" or "EZmode" or "not even playing the game anymore" while HA builds still have to do the mechanics otherwise they will wipe just like other builds and cannot reach the damage ceiling required to skip the majority of those mechanics the same way LA weaving builds can, they still have to perform an actual rotation (yes its much easier to do, but it's still a rotation they have to do none the less). The only players I've seen running HA builds even remotely close to the "1 button"/"autopilot" way are the same players who achieve the full ceiling of traditional LA weaving builds, I am yet to see any average player come anywhere near as close to that level of performance with HA builds.

Did anyone ever stop to consider that maybe these builds were needed because the ceiling of "the way to properly play the game" (i.e. LA weaving), was getting to be too far ahead of of the floor and there was no way to step up into that ceiling with the options that were available in the game at the time.

HA builds provided the ability for more players to do more content (a good thing, especially for keeping the money coming in and the servers up and running and new content being made), and before it got gutted in the final week of PTS, the latest mythic was shaping up as one of the best stepping stones to encourage players to transition from HA builds into LA weaving builds while not being overly punished while they are trying to learn how to "play the game properly".

But once again, because the new mythic was a different way to play the game, it got stepped all over by the same people complaining about HA builds as another "EZmode"/"autopilot" mythic and as a result it got completely gutted to the point that it's barely worth considering, even for its intended use of clearing trash mobs over the current traditional LA weaving build mythic options.

This is not to say that everyone should be given everything for free (which they aren't with these builds/mythics btw), but maybe consider that the gap between the floor and the ceiling of the existing playstyle needed closing up and despite some peoples opinions, oakensoul HA builds and the new mythic before it got gutted, were ideal ways for achieving this (more so than the ridiculous "balance changes" made in U35 that only served to widen the gap and did infinitely more to actively harm the game than anything these 2 mythics ever did).

As for using vMA clears as an excuse to delete the HA playstyle, that content is nearly a decade old now, natural power creep SHOULD be making it insanely easy to clear after such a long time.
If brand new players running oakensorc were stepping into the latest vet HM dungeons/trials and getting those trifectas on the first attempt, then sure the build would definitely be OP, but that is not happening and the only ones coming close to even clearing the latest content with these builds, let alone getting the trifectas are the same players that regularly clear that type of content with traditional builds regularly and have been doing so for years now, i.e. the players who are practiced enough to even attempt that content regularly in the first place.

PrincessOfThieves

The problem is, no matter how they balance the game, HA players want to do better than average LA players. That's pretty obvious by now. And this is the root of the negativity. In all of these threads, HA defenders compare themselves with the 0.00001% of top players and conclude that they're not so op... And at the same time, an average pug dk (or any non-HA build) struggles to hit 20-30k on bosses and is much squishier than an oakensorc.

Turtle_Bot

So the answer to this problem is instead of buffing the floor of LA weaving builds without buffing the ceiling so that they can compete with HA builds (something that the new mythic would have done before it got nerfed btw), the answer is to instead go and attack HA players, discriminate against them and threaten to deliberately exclude them from participating in any content (including those who legitimately need to use HA builds for whatever reason, be it disability, or whatever else).

That is so much worse than what is being claimed that HA players are apparently doing and you wonder why the push back on any nerfs to HA builds has been so severe.

Daoin

maybe HA is just a bit ahead of its time for people around now, i would call them 'supersorcs' but maybe name would taken in the wrong way as if to say they are superior or or thier performance is legendary and out of this world when its not the fact. for me it wont make a difference if the changes where even drastic because i would enjoy my sorc anyway but if the changes are dramatic i think nerfing this build will effect the whole of the random group community back how terrible it has been in the past, i dont mean just to focus on damage but the what said damage has always been treated like by others in the past even if thrown into the hardest dlc vet dungeon on your first vet random...i would have thought those in that crowd would have been the most solid supporters of this build with build not overperforming but making more content possible to achieve in randoms especially the step up from normal to vet. one thigs for sure its true sometimes i do leave groups because im not in the mood to play along side 1 bar builds because i dont want to have to wait for the big bang at the end of the heavy to get the job done when i half the time in some groups there is no big bang because mobs are already dead but fact remains i can leave a group for any reason i want to, but to say i would leave a group because it is overperforming ? i dont think so..... gimmi more, gimmi more and another fact is HA build as it is now the players are just dependable in any content to survive..to destroy..and to get the job done making the whole learning of say a dlc dungeon easier for when they dont want to HA but do something else. there must be a multitude of reasons this particular build works for alot of people (including myself when on it) disappointed ones i think if the nerf goes too far

Braffin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Let's allow the participation of autopiloted tesla cars in racing then, if you really wanna compare something to sergeant broakensorc

If in a race, the autopilot car is only doing 100mph (as the person you quoted says) the autopilot car will probably lose the race, since most race cars are usually way faster than that.

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Also HA is not auto pilot.

You're right here. Although my argument was never about competition (that's only a thing in PvP imo) but cooperation and the impact said build has here.

I don't even have a problem with the dps numbers but some other aspects which till today every user of sergeant brokensorc is denying an answer to:
1) The defense capabilities are way too high so you don't have to play a lot of mechanics anymore which would otherwise kill you.
2) The healing capabilities are over the top too so you don't have to care about grouping up with a healer anymore and still finish the content.
3) A core mechanic of the game (how to sustain my build) is completely eliminated for these players.

That's why I call it a selfish build for selfish people. I wanna see this adressed (I'm fine with the dps they are doing tho on liveservers, as I indeed support different playstyles.).

I brought an example for that:

SoraJP wrote: »

Oakensoul fake heal. It's to the point where If I queue as DD and get a real healer in the group, I hate it. It's soooo much faster with 3 DPS (all vet DLC dungeons, nonhm, can be done this way). Especially when I'm doing 75% of the damage as a fake healer. Even had some cases where I'm tankier than the tank, who claims he is a real tank.

Look at the threads about speedrunning and what is done to newer players by this. Loads of text to read. Do you really think the average 2 bar player is running through the whole dungeon without clearing it out? No, that's sergeant brokensorc, any really average LA player would be dead quite quick.

Another player (@daoin) here in this thread said for himself how it's done using an example in fungal 2: A newer player is trying to tank for the team, nobody is explaining mechanics to him because "quick random lolz", tank is put in cave at spiderdaedra and sergeant brokensorc saves the day. Not for the newer player tho, who don't know what is happening and left alone.

Do you call that groupplay? For me it's just despicable.

PS: It's not about gatekeeping or too high dps where the hate comes. The described behaviour, which is unfortunately supported by said build, is simply backfiring on them.

BlueRaven

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

The problem is, no matter how they balance the game, HA players want to do better than average LA players. That's pretty obvious by now. And this is the root of the negativity. In all of these threads, HA defenders compare themselves with the 0.00001% of top players and conclude that they're not so op... And at the same time, an average pug dk (or any non-HA build) struggles to hit 20-30k on bosses and is much squishier than an oakensorc.

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

fizl101

Braffin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Let's allow the participation of autopiloted tesla cars in racing then, if you really wanna compare something to sergeant broakensorc

If in a race, the autopilot car is only doing 100mph (as the person you quoted says) the autopilot car will probably lose the race, since most race cars are usually way faster than that.

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Also HA is not auto pilot.

You're right here. Although my argument was never about competition (that's only a thing in PvP imo) but cooperation and the impact said build has here.

I don't even have a problem with the dps numbers but some other aspects which till today every user of sergeant brokensorc is denying an answer to:
1) The defense capabilities are way too high so you don't have to play a lot of mechanics anymore which would otherwise kill you.
2) The healing capabilities are over the top too so you don't have to care about grouping up with a healer anymore and still finish the content.
3) A core mechanic of the game (how to sustain my build) is completely eliminated for these players.

That's why I call it a selfish build for selfish people. I wanna see this adressed (I'm fine with the dps they are doing tho on liveservers, as I indeed support different playstyles.).

I brought an example for that:

SoraJP wrote: »

Oakensoul fake heal. It's to the point where If I queue as DD and get a real healer in the group, I hate it. It's soooo much faster with 3 DPS (all vet DLC dungeons, nonhm, can be done this way). Especially when I'm doing 75% of the damage as a fake healer. Even had some cases where I'm tankier than the tank, who claims he is a real tank.

Look at the threads about speedrunning and what is done to newer players by this. Loads of text to read. Do you really think the average 2 bar player is running through the whole dungeon without clearing it out? No, that's sergeant brokensorc, any really average LA player would be dead quite quick.

Another player (@daoin) here in this thread said for himself how it's done using an example in fungal 2: A newer player is trying to tank for the team, nobody is explaining mechanics to him because "quick random lolz", tank is put in cave at spiderdaedra and sergeant brokensorc saves the day. Not for the newer player tho, who don't know what is happening and left alone.

Do you call that groupplay? For me it's just despicable.

PS: It's not about gatekeeping or too high dps where the hate comes. The described behaviour, which is unfortunately supported by said build, is simply backfiring on them.

I dont think you can blame oakensorc builds for the speed running and 3 dd comp dungeons. That has been happening long before oakensorcs were a thing.

Braffin

fizl101 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Do cars with automatic transmissions deserve to be able to go 100 mph? Shouldn't that be reserved for the more interactive and challenging manual transmission drivers? The fact that I put more time and effort into learning to drive manual, and yet the automatic transmission is easier and just as good except for the highest tiers of competitive racing? Makes me feel bad!"

Let's allow the participation of autopiloted tesla cars in racing then, if you really wanna compare something to sergeant broakensorc

If in a race, the autopilot car is only doing 100mph (as the person you quoted says) the autopilot car will probably lose the race, since most race cars are usually way faster than that.

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Also HA is not auto pilot.

You're right here. Although my argument was never about competition (that's only a thing in PvP imo) but cooperation and the impact said build has here.

I don't even have a problem with the dps numbers but some other aspects which till today every user of sergeant brokensorc is denying an answer to:
1) The defense capabilities are way too high so you don't have to play a lot of mechanics anymore which would otherwise kill you.
2) The healing capabilities are over the top too so you don't have to care about grouping up with a healer anymore and still finish the content.
3) A core mechanic of the game (how to sustain my build) is completely eliminated for these players.

That's why I call it a selfish build for selfish people. I wanna see this adressed (I'm fine with the dps they are doing tho on liveservers, as I indeed support different playstyles.).

I brought an example for that:

SoraJP wrote: »

Oakensoul fake heal. It's to the point where If I queue as DD and get a real healer in the group, I hate it. It's soooo much faster with 3 DPS (all vet DLC dungeons, nonhm, can be done this way). Especially when I'm doing 75% of the damage as a fake healer. Even had some cases where I'm tankier than the tank, who claims he is a real tank.

Look at the threads about speedrunning and what is done to newer players by this. Loads of text to read. Do you really think the average 2 bar player is running through the whole dungeon without clearing it out? No, that's sergeant brokensorc, any really average LA player would be dead quite quick.

Another player (@daoin) here in this thread said for himself how it's done using an example in fungal 2: A newer player is trying to tank for the team, nobody is explaining mechanics to him because "quick random lolz", tank is put in cave at spiderdaedra and sergeant brokensorc saves the day. Not for the newer player tho, who don't know what is happening and left alone.

Do you call that groupplay? For me it's just despicable.

PS: It's not about gatekeeping or too high dps where the hate comes. The described behaviour, which is unfortunately supported by said build, is simply backfiring on them.

I dont think you can blame oakensorc builds for the speed running and 3 dd comp dungeons. That has been happening long before oakensorcs were a thing.

Are more or less people capable of doing so since sergeant brokensorc arrived?

Zastrix

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

High end HA? My guy there's nothing to do to be 'high end HA' except have the correct gear? There's literally no skill required except for rolldoding (maybe).

BlueRaven wrote: »

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Except they are in most actual content. They can outdps because of AOE, sustain, range, buffs and pen.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Also HA is not auto pilot.

vMoS Oakensorc builds can completely ignore the oneshot from lurchers, they maybe get reduced to 60% health from the lurchers where other character need to sustain stamina to not die whilst blocking. And even then they're reduced to 10-20% HP so unless you're not max HP you're dead. Also I have a friends who accidentally did vMA perfected run with an Oakensorc whilst barely able to do it with a normal build he had for waaaay longer.

I have friends who play as Oakensorcs instead of their previous builds because they themselves describe the build as being braindead easy... which it is.

ZoS made accesibility with Oakensorcs great which is a positive thing. But there should be a limit to where. You really shouldn't expect to play a braindead build and then get trifectas and whine when you don't get them. If you can do normal content, a 10% damage nerf is nothing. It should've been more like 30% and even THEN you would be able to do most content on normal and vet whilst trifectas would be harder.

People saying that Oakensorcs need to do mechanics is technically not incorrect. Sure you only do a fraction of mechanics and still outdps people who play mechanics but you know you still technically do the mechanics as well.

Let's take doom eternal. I really don't hear people whining about not being able to do Nightmare difficulty without swapping weapons and without altering the weapon to suit the case, if you can't do that just lower the difficulty of the game

PrincessOfThieves

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

No. I'm just saying that HA defenders want to perform on the same level as the best players while using an easy accessibility build. They compare themselves with the best dds of all servers, not with other average players, and that shows how highly they think of themselves.
I'm not against HA as playstyle, but I think that Oakensorc in particular should perform on the same level as other non-HA Oakensoul builds. Accessibilty/easy mode builds should have a niche, but they should not be used as hardmode cheesing tools for able-bodied players. Viability in vet content doesn't mean that you should be able to burn everything.
As it is now, Oakensorc has no real drawbacks. Yes, it cannot do 130k dps... But very few players can do that anyway, probably a few hundred or so, so these kinds of parses do not affect the general playerbase. There's literally no other builds like this, and that forces people to use this playstyle. Many people in these threads speak about build choices and stuff, but this is not a choice, but a very strict meta, possibly the strictest in the entire history of ESO. It doesn't make sense for one build to be that much stronger than anything else.

BlueRaven

Zastrix wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

High end HA? My guy there's nothing to do to be 'high end HA' except have the correct gear? There's literally no skill required except for rolldoding (maybe).

BlueRaven wrote: »

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Except they are in most actual content. They can outdps because of AOE, sustain, range, buffs and pen.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Also HA is not auto pilot.

vMoS Oakensorc builds can completely ignore the oneshot from lurchers, they maybe get reduced to 60% health from the lurchers where other character need to sustain stamina to not die whilst blocking. And even then they're reduced to 10-20% HP so unless you're not max HP you're dead. Also I have a friends who accidentally did vMA perfected run with an Oakensorc whilst barely able to do it with a normal build he had for waaaay longer.

I have friends who play as Oakensorcs instead of their previous builds because they themselves describe the build as being braindead easy... which it is.

ZoS made accesibility with Oakensorcs great which is a positive thing. But there should be a limit to where. You really shouldn't expect to play a braindead build and then get trifectas and whine when you don't get them. If you can do normal content, a 10% damage nerf is nothing. It should've been more like 30% and even THEN you would be able to do most content on normal and vet whilst trifectas would be harder.

People saying that Oakensorcs need to do mechanics is technically not incorrect. Sure you only do a fraction of mechanics and still outdps people who play mechanics but you know you still technically do the mechanics as well.

Let's take doom eternal. I really don't hear people whining about not being able to do Nightmare difficulty without swapping weapons and without altering the weapon to suit the case, if you can't do that just lower the difficulty of the game

People with the correct gear and build are better prepared for particular situations. Shocker.

And what is with all these trial players wanting more deaths in encounters? “This build is bad, it prevents wipes in trials.”

Last time I checked Doom Eternals combat is much less complex than ESO’s. It’s more about avoiding damage, than having a rotation.

It’s the combat system in ESO that drives people away. (See earlier post.) The HA build is popular because it’s NOT ESO’s normal combat. That should tell you something.
If you want people to do bar swapping and weaving, that type of combat needs to become more like how HA is presented, not the other way around.

No game is looking at ESO (and that includes Doom Eternal) and going; “Let’s do combat like that!”

PrincessOfThieves

Zastrix wrote: »

Let's take doom eternal. I really don't hear people whining about not being able to do Nightmare difficulty without swapping weapons and without altering the weapon to suit the case, if you can't do that just lower the difficulty of the game

This. There's normal mode for people who don't like challenges or cannot be bothered to learn a build. And almost all rewards these days (markings, mementos, skins, dyes, gear) only require vet clears, HMs and trifectas mostly just give titles. There's only like 3 trifecta mounts, but that's about it (and even then, better or similar mounts can be bought from crown store).

Braffin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

High end HA? My guy there's nothing to do to be 'high end HA' except have the correct gear? There's literally no skill required except for rolldoding (maybe).

BlueRaven wrote: »

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Except they are in most actual content. They can outdps because of AOE, sustain, range, buffs and pen.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Also HA is not auto pilot.

vMoS Oakensorc builds can completely ignore the oneshot from lurchers, they maybe get reduced to 60% health from the lurchers where other character need to sustain stamina to not die whilst blocking. And even then they're reduced to 10-20% HP so unless you're not max HP you're dead. Also I have a friends who accidentally did vMA perfected run with an Oakensorc whilst barely able to do it with a normal build he had for waaaay longer.

I have friends who play as Oakensorcs instead of their previous builds because they themselves describe the build as being braindead easy... which it is.

ZoS made accesibility with Oakensorcs great which is a positive thing. But there should be a limit to where. You really shouldn't expect to play a braindead build and then get trifectas and whine when you don't get them. If you can do normal content, a 10% damage nerf is nothing. It should've been more like 30% and even THEN you would be able to do most content on normal and vet whilst trifectas would be harder.

People saying that Oakensorcs need to do mechanics is technically not incorrect. Sure you only do a fraction of mechanics and still outdps people who play mechanics but you know you still technically do the mechanics as well.

Let's take doom eternal. I really don't hear people whining about not being able to do Nightmare difficulty without swapping weapons and without altering the weapon to suit the case, if you can't do that just lower the difficulty of the game

People with the correct gear and build are better prepared for particular situations. Shocker.

And what is with all these trial players wanting more deaths in encounters? “This build is bad, it prevents wipes in trials.”

Last time I checked Doom Eternals combat is much less complex than ESO’s. It’s more about avoiding damage, than having a rotation.

It’s the combat system in ESO that drives people away. (See earlier post.) The HA build is popular because it’s NOT ESO’s normal combat. That should tell you something.
If you want people to do bar swapping and weaving, that type of combat needs to become more like how HA is presented, not the other way around.

No game is looking at ESO (and that includes Doom Eternal) and going; “Let’s do combat like that!”

Stop your cherrypicking regarding why people are not playing this game. Sure, there are people not playing eso for the combat. As there are people not playing wow, gw2, swtor or any other game for the combat (simply not action-based enough for example).

You make a very bad strawman here, and you probably know it.

Fact is, there are different difficulties for a reason in almost every game so different players can have fun playing it while enjoying the same content (besides difficulty). You want to negate this because you personally don't like the combat system.

If you aren't up for a challenge why bother with highest difficulty in the first place? Is the story better there? Or the animations?

Tell me: What is the reason for playing hardmode then?

PS: Why do still refuse to talk about sustain, resistances and healing capabilities of sergeant brokensorc compared to any other build? No arguments around?

Galiferno

I used to be in favor of balancing HA builds but ever since I started fake healing vet pledges and random vets and still do over 50% of the dps on average, I realized how easy and convenient the build truly is. I have no idea how I manage to so severely outdps even other heavy attackers I get in my groups, so some players are still just bad at the game even with this incredibly simple build. Take advantage of it how OP it is.

Daoin

nobody incuding me is explaing mechs because in fungal grotto when is last time someone ran past the waterfall instead of jumping down it which was nice to see, and been given time in random group to do things thier own way as tank is so rare that i would say extinct i was in shock do any newer to eso players even know there is anything back there ? but there we were. no fakes healer no fake tank 2 dd's (supersorc inc as dd). just enjoying the dungeon for no particular reason except it was a random group finder placing.. no need for much chat and luckily there was supersorc stepping up when nobody else could have ! needless to say the whole group was in a happier boat at the dungeon completed stage. Make the most of the fun things that can be done around sorcs lately because the crying and calling for nerfs and all the hate, i cant see much love going out to those that are trying thier level best to see this build harvested of any good its capable of, one way or the other dont care..but not looking forward to bad old days

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

nobody incuding me is explaing mechs because in fungal grotto when is last time someone ran past the waterfall instead of jumping down it which was nice to see, and been given time in random group to do things thier own way as tank is so rare that i would say extinct but there we were. no fakes healer no fake tank 2 dd's. just enjoying the dungeon. no need for much chat and luckily there was supersorc stepping up when nobody else could have !

Well, indeed I do explain mechanics to newer players if they wish so. Even in old dungeons. Besides being a matter of politeness and respect for each other it's also healthy for the game if more players are knowing what they are doing.

And I gain something out of it too of course. I never lack tanks or healers if I need some. They are happy to run something with me.

Braffin

Galiferno wrote: »

I used to be in favor of balancing HA builds but ever since I started fake healing vet pledges and random vets and still do over 50% of the dps on average, I realized how easy and convenient the build truly is. I have no idea how I manage to so severely outdps even other heavy attackers I get in my groups, so some players are still just bad at the game even with this incredibly simple build. Take advantage of it how OP it is.

Well sure, no build can substitute player skill. Of course you are still outparsing them

Dojohoda

This is an all star thread, it's movie theater level, we have Chuck Norris, Sergeant Broakensorc played by, I'm thinking Clint Eastwood, and we have manual transmission cars, realllly fast ones. Definitely a popcorn event while watching this glorious movie unfold.

My input, as more of a sideline person, is that the adjustment is unusually fair because it did not utterly break the heavy attack build potential. It's just a dent in that automatic transmission sports car.

Braffin

Dojohoda wrote: »

This is an all star thread, it's movie theater level, we have Chuck Norris, Sergeant Broakensorc played by, I'm thinking Clint Eastwood, and we have manual transmission cars, realllly fast ones. Definitely a popcorn event while watching this glorious movie unfold.

My input, as more of a sideline person, is that the adjustment is unusually fair because it did not utterly break the heavy attack build potential. It's just a dent in that automatic transmission sports car.

Glad you enjoy

Daoin

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

nobody incuding me is explaing mechs because in fungal grotto when is last time someone ran past the waterfall instead of jumping down it which was nice to see, and been given time in random group to do things thier own way as tank is so rare that i would say extinct but there we were. no fakes healer no fake tank 2 dd's. just enjoying the dungeon. no need for much chat and luckily there was supersorc stepping up when nobody else could have !

Well, indeed I do explain mechanics to newer players if they wish so. Even in old dungeons. Besides being a matter of politeness and respect for each other it's also healthy for the game if more players are knowing what they are doing.

And I gain something out of it too of course. I never lack tanks or healers if I need some. They are happy to run something with me.

never asked, and why worried then about healers not needed nor tanks being tanks and say you should refuse to play along side HA builds, how would the HA build ever effect your eso gaming ? apart from maybe the pets being a little distarcting on the sidelines which is in another post haha i mean if it's a pvp issue here then i admitam out of my depths to comment as dont do much IC or Cyro but little exp in BG with HA saw nothing that tipped the scales.

Daoin

yeah i hear alot about it being not much of a change too, but i dont do PTS. Wont know for myself until later sure is alot of action though about it..yeah movie material lol myself i dont have anything against those against it or for it either sort of a middle-man, today i enjoyed tanking for 3 HA builds tomorrow could not be in mood for it and leave group if its random, the only ever change to anything i did not eventually start to like until now is the change of the AS daggers really liked those before

BlueRaven

Braffin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is your argument that since high end HA dps is better than extremely low end weaving, it needs to be nerfed?

High end HA? My guy there's nothing to do to be 'high end HA' except have the correct gear? There's literally no skill required except for rolldoding (maybe).

BlueRaven wrote: »

Just as HA builds are not competitive against top end dps builds.

Except they are in most actual content. They can outdps because of AOE, sustain, range, buffs and pen.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Also HA is not auto pilot.

vMoS Oakensorc builds can completely ignore the oneshot from lurchers, they maybe get reduced to 60% health from the lurchers where other character need to sustain stamina to not die whilst blocking. And even then they're reduced to 10-20% HP so unless you're not max HP you're dead. Also I have a friends who accidentally did vMA perfected run with an Oakensorc whilst barely able to do it with a normal build he had for waaaay longer.

I have friends who play as Oakensorcs instead of their previous builds because they themselves describe the build as being braindead easy... which it is.

ZoS made accesibility with Oakensorcs great which is a positive thing. But there should be a limit to where. You really shouldn't expect to play a braindead build and then get trifectas and whine when you don't get them. If you can do normal content, a 10% damage nerf is nothing. It should've been more like 30% and even THEN you would be able to do most content on normal and vet whilst trifectas would be harder.

People saying that Oakensorcs need to do mechanics is technically not incorrect. Sure you only do a fraction of mechanics and still outdps people who play mechanics but you know you still technically do the mechanics as well.

Let's take doom eternal. I really don't hear people whining about not being able to do Nightmare difficulty without swapping weapons and without altering the weapon to suit the case, if you can't do that just lower the difficulty of the game

People with the correct gear and build are better prepared for particular situations. Shocker.

And what is with all these trial players wanting more deaths in encounters? “This build is bad, it prevents wipes in trials.”

Last time I checked Doom Eternals combat is much less complex than ESO’s. It’s more about avoiding damage, than having a rotation.

It’s the combat system in ESO that drives people away. (See earlier post.) The HA build is popular because it’s NOT ESO’s normal combat. That should tell you something.
If you want people to do bar swapping and weaving, that type of combat needs to become more like how HA is presented, not the other way around.

No game is looking at ESO (and that includes Doom Eternal) and going; “Let’s do combat like that!”

Stop your cherrypicking regarding why people are not playing this game. Sure, there are people not playing eso for the combat. As there are people not playing wow, gw2, swtor or any other game for the combat (simply not action-based enough for example).

You make a very bad strawman here, and you probably know it.

Fact is, there are different difficulties for a reason in almost every game so different players can have fun playing it while enjoying the same content (besides difficulty). You want to negate this because you personally don't like the combat system.

If you aren't up for a challenge why bother with highest difficulty in the first place? Is the story better there? Or the animations?

Tell me: What is the reason for playing hardmode then?

PS: Why do still refuse to talk about sustain, resistances and healing capabilities of sergeant brokensorc compared to any other build? No arguments around?

I did not pick "Doom Eternal" out of a hat, the person I was responding to put it out there. Why not chastize them for cherry picking? Or am I not allowed to respond to them? Are only people you agree with allowed to mention other games now?

Cherry picking? Show me an outside game developer that sings the praises of ESO’s combat. Show me a game review that talks about ESO's "outstanding combat". Show me a game description that says "ESO-like combat" as a positive descriptor.

Oakensoul (There is no B or R in that by the way) was not created out of a vacuum, it was created because so few people actually like ESO's combat. Even the people currently playing the game. That is how bad the current combat system is. Why do you think so many people flocked to it? Because they would happily leave the current standard combat system behind. No one picked up the ring and was sad they could not bar swap anymore.

And zos could not sustain adding so much vet content with so few people participating. You should be happy so many players got their dps raised. That means zos has less fear about adding difficult content as there is (finally) an actual audience for it.

***

There is no one out there singing the praises of combat in this game.

Here is another person, a fifth person from mmo-c posting about eso's combat:

"Combat still sucks, but I'm back and playing and still haven't the foggiest clue how to weave."

And no one is defending it there. No one. (At the time of this writing.)

And then there is our own forums:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632399/ha-nerfs-the-poll/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626539/do-you-actually-enjoy-the-light-heavy-attack-weaving-mechanic-within-esos-combat-system/p1

Over half the respondents don't like weaving.

***

Why do people do (vet) trials, hardmodes, whatever? There are many different reasons why people do trials.
Maybe someone who does not like the combat, still wants to hang out with the guild/friends in a trial. Maybe people who don't like the combat are still completionists. Curiosity. Housing leads/rewards...

You might as well be asking why people even play videogames.

(BTW Maybe you should do trials with a bunch of HA builds, at least they are not competing against you for gear drops.)

Why people want to do trials for is their own business. For me I just like filling in with my Stam Bow/DW blade toon when they need a twelfth person. And hanging out with them in Discord, of course. Otherwise I am perfectly content NOT doing trials or dungeons at all. (And I have completed vMOL btw.)

***

And I don't know what you want me to say about "sustain, resistances and healing capabilities" other than gear and builds help negate these concerns, just like in all MMO's. HA players are trading top end dps, for a bit of survivability. Standard two bar players can do the same if they wish. Instead of putting all the points into stam or mag, put some in health? Instead of stam/mag enchants, add something that makes you more tanky? Wear a set with heavier armor perhaps? Overall dps will drop down to HA levels, but at least survivability will increase.
Be a glass cannon or be a bit more survivable, do what you want, I honestly don't care.