Do "Heavy Attack" builds deserve that high damage?

Katlefiya

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

sorry no they don't.... while everyone else running 2 bar builds have to work hard for that high dmg... HA builds hold left click.... and OCCASIONALLY press a skill button.....and yes... I have tried the HA sorc build.... destroyed my sergeants and stormmaster setup shortly after.... HA sorcs/builds should not be able to be coming as close as they are to dmg as a fully setup 2 bar DD. I have talked to quite a few of my mid-tier dps friends and they have all said the same thing... "what's the point anymore... when a HA build can out dps me" that is EXTREMELY disheartening to hear from friends

First of all: who decides at which point close is "too close"? Second: if a HA build can out dps you, maybe - just maybe - you are not that good with your 2 bar build rotations as you think you are? Should a "fully setup 2 bar DD" really deserve more DPS by default just for equipping a certain type of setup?

maxjapank

Katlefiya wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

sorry no they don't.... while everyone else running 2 bar builds have to work hard for that high dmg... HA builds hold left click.... and OCCASIONALLY press a skill button.....and yes... I have tried the HA sorc build.... destroyed my sergeants and stormmaster setup shortly after.... HA sorcs/builds should not be able to be coming as close as they are to dmg as a fully setup 2 bar DD. I have talked to quite a few of my mid-tier dps friends and they have all said the same thing... "what's the point anymore... when a HA build can out dps me" that is EXTREMELY disheartening to hear from friends

First of all: who decides at which point close is "too close"? Second: if a HA build can out dps you, maybe - just maybe - you are not that good with your 2 bar build rotations as you think you are? Should a "fully setup 2 bar DD" really deserve more DPS by default just for equipping a certain type of setup?

exactly this 100%

Braffin

Katlefiya wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

sorry no they don't.... while everyone else running 2 bar builds have to work hard for that high dmg... HA builds hold left click.... and OCCASIONALLY press a skill button.....and yes... I have tried the HA sorc build.... destroyed my sergeants and stormmaster setup shortly after.... HA sorcs/builds should not be able to be coming as close as they are to dmg as a fully setup 2 bar DD. I have talked to quite a few of my mid-tier dps friends and they have all said the same thing... "what's the point anymore... when a HA build can out dps me" that is EXTREMELY disheartening to hear from friends

First of all: who decides at which point close is "too close"? Second: if a HA build can out dps you, maybe - just maybe - you are not that good with your 2 bar build rotations as you think you are? Should a "fully setup 2 bar DD" really deserve more DPS by default just for equipping a certain type of setup?

First of all: The developers decide of course. And they already decided HA builds are "too close". So your question is quite pointless.
Second: Sure, if you're an expert with 2 bar build rotations a HA build will never out dps you. That's not the point tho. As any 2 bar build is more in line with the concept and vision of the game's developers (once again, all of you HA defenders refuse to talk about core mechanics like sustain), it clearly deserves better results.

And a little addition to think about: Should a "one button dps build" really deserve more dps by default than any guy only using light attacks without any skills in between just for using HA while equipping a certain type of setup (namely sergeants, storm master, oakensoul)?

My answer is no. Effort and results of a build have to be balanced all over the game. One specific build is a statistical outlier and that's why it has to be toned down and brought in line.

TybaltKaine

I just want to comment to say, once again, not everyone who uses this build hits 100k by just holding a button down That's nonsense and Y'all need to stop propping it up as the only argument. I run a HA sorc and I get 60k on a good day. I'm old and have bad hands, but appararently I should only be allowed to run healer because some people, some of the time, do ridiculous damage.

The people doing ridiculous damage on HA builds already have a core understanding of how to do high damage on a traditional build. Full stop, that's it.

There is no gear in any game that is gonna give you the skills you need to perform at the highest tier. The only time you see that is Debug/glitched gear (god mode rings in Skyrim for example).

Seriously, come up with a new line of reasoning cause "Sorc hold button numbers go BRRR" is tired and has been disproven multiple times.

Braffin

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I just want to comment to say, once again, not everyone who uses this build hits 100k by just holding a button down That's nonsense and Y'all need to stop propping it up as the only argument. I run a HA sorc and I get 60k on a good day. I'm old and have bad hands, but appararently I should only be allowed to run healer because some people, some of the time, do ridiculous damage.

The people doing ridiculous damage on HA builds already have a core understanding of how to do high damage on a traditional build. Full stop, that's it.

There is no gear in any game that is gonna give you the skills you need to perform at the highest tier. The only time you see that is Debug/glitched gear (god mode rings in Skyrim for example).

Seriously, come up with a new line of reasoning cause "Sorc hold button numbers go BRRR" is tired and has been disproven multiple times.

Nobody is hindered to gain exactly this "core understanding of how to do high damage", neither by bad hands nor age.

So, as you say for yourself, the question of low damage isn't about LA, HA, weaving or anything of that, but simply about the question if there is a core understanding of game mechanics present or not.

And yes, if a player is lacking in working out how to do proper dps while playing mechanics, he shouldn't be viable for hardmodes, there is a normal mode for that.

TybaltKaine

I physically cannot LA weave due to my hands and I am not alone in this. So yes, there is a marked barrier to entry to achieving the highest tier of damage for some people.

I have a core understanding of GCD's, weaving, resource regen and everything else that goes into damage dealing, I started this game as a damage dealer until I couldn't do it anymore.

The crux of the issue is people feeling like HA builds shouldn't be able to compete because they aren't worked for, that argument is FALSE. You will not ever be able to do max damage by holding a button, tapping another one 3 times and not knowing how anything else works, which is what everyone is always saying is the case.

It's not the case. Good players are good players, either with HA or LA set ups, and nerfing the HA setups into the ground because some folks aren't that good yet isn't going to change that fact.

Arguing that "effort should be required" is just as lazy as saying "Git Gud" and just as dismissive. For some folks, they can ty as hard as they want, but they will never be able to eclipse what is barely the DPS check for certain activities.

Maybe what should really be happening is the damage ceiling being lowered across the board and designing content with that altered ceiling in mind. But that is a whole different conversation that no one wants to have, because big numbers equal big dopamine spikes, and big dopamine spikes mean people come back for more.

Braffin

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I physically cannot LA weave due to my hands and I am not alone in this. So yes, there is a marked barrier to entry to achieving the highest tier of damage for some people.

I have a core understanding of GCD's, weaving, resource regen and everything else that goes into damage dealing, I started this game as a damage dealer until I couldn't do it anymore.

The crux of the issue is people feeling like HA builds shouldn't be able to compete because they aren't worked for, that argument is FALSE. You will not ever be able to do max damage by holding a button, tapping another one 3 times and not knowing how anything else works, which is what everyone is always saying is the case.

It's not the case. Good players are good players, either with HA or LA set ups, and nerfing the HA setups into the ground because some folks aren't that good yet isn't going to change that fact.

Arguing that "effort should be required" is just as lazy as saying "Git Gud" and just as dismissive. For some folks, they can ty as hard as they want, but they will never be able to eclipse what is barely the DPS check for certain activities.

Maybe what should really be happening is the damage ceiling being lowered across the board and designing content with that altered ceiling in mind. But that is a whole different conversation that no one wants to have, because big numbers equal big dopamine spikes, and big dopamine spikes mean people come back for more.

Don't hide behind LA weaving, it's not needed to reach 100k dps without playing HA as has been proven multiple times.

You for yourself admit, there are people out there doing 100k dps by using HA builds, so there is no LA weaving involved. You only do 60k on a good day as you say for yourself.

Why is that?

Well, LA weaving definitely isn't the reason for that, as it isn't involved in either parse. So you may keep your strawman for yourself.

TybaltKaine

No one is talking about LA weaving or hiding behind it. I mentioned LA weaving explicitly because I can't do it anymore and to prove that I am skilled enough in the game to do it. I can't LA weave anymore, I can ONLY use HA if I want to do damage. I, even with my baseline understanding of the game, only hit 60k with my HA build on a good hand day.

Once again. The people doing 100k HA parses and hitting it in content are at the highest tier of players. The Average player is NOT hitting those numbers.

[snip]
[edited for mild baiting]

Braffin

TybaltKaine wrote: »

No one is talking about LA weaving or hiding behind it. I mentioned LA weaving explicitly because I can't do it anymore and to prove that I am skilled enough in the game to do it. I can't LA weave anymore, I can ONLY use HA if I want to do damage. I, even with my baseline understanding of the game, only hit 60k with my HA build on a good hand day.

Of course you are hiding, as there is simply no need for LA weaving to do solid damage. Why do you ignore that? Why do you refuse to talk about the negation of sustain?

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Once again. The people doing 100k HA parses and hitting it in content are at the highest tier of players. The Average player is NOT hitting those numbers.

The average player isn't hitting 130k on two bar LA builds either. Nonetheless HA users compare explicitely with this highest tier of players to defend their playstyle. In fact the average player is struggling to hit 80k with these builds, while this isn't a problem on sergeant brokensoul. You don't even need to press skills to do so, as was proven with parses countless times. You're also ignoring this.

TybaltKaine wrote: »

[snip]

I agree with you on this one tho, as I think the same about your arguments. It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

[edited to remove quote]

maxjapank

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

Braffin

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

I'm still waiting for a statement why exactly you do think a build which is negating a core mechanic like sustain entirely should be viable for any content in this game.

HA folks are always talking about gatekeeping, elitism, disabilities. But if you try to argue with them about the game itself and the implemented mechanics the only answer you get is embarassed silence and more of the same accusations every single time.

It's amusing to be honest.

TybaltKaine

If you can't sustain on a two-bar build, that's on you. Understanding GCD and building resource regen (primary resource) to match your spammable cost allows you to have high sustain.

If your spammable is say 1500 per cast, you build your sustain to half of that (750) and you are using proper LA weaving, which is, LA, Skill, LA, Skill, LA etc, you will be gaining back your resource cost for your spammable.

GCD is 1 second, building in a LA between spammable and waiting for skill cooldown will enable that regen (remember 750 per second for this example) to eliminate the cost of your skill by the time you cast it again.

If you are having further sustain issues, that is a core problem with group composition (in which the tank and healer should be providing buffs that help sustain) and your own choice of sets. In a properly constructed Trial group, you should almost never run out of resources unless YOU are built wrong.

Now, how exactly is a HA build creating an issue with sustain when they have to hold down the attack for an entire 5 seconds to regain resources? Yes, there are some skills that can be cross cast while HA is held, but guess what, you can do that on LA two-bar builds too. The fact that HA builds MUST do nothing but attack for nearly 5 seconds is negating the advantage of resource regen by not allowing them to cast more skills.

A two-bar LA build can cast more skills, do more damage AND regen resources when using proper weaving and allowing for cooldown of skills.

You not understanding GCD and weaving is not a sustain issue, nor is it a HA build issue.

It seems like the issue most of you have is with one set, Sergeant's Mail. That set should be altered to only apply bonus damage on the final tick, which would erase the supposedly "unfair" advantage that a single bar, HA build has when using a Lightning Staff and Oakensoul.

That's not ALL HA builds though, and acting like it is, and that every HA build is designed the same way is disingenuous at best.

Braffin

TybaltKaine wrote: »

If you can't sustain on a two-bar build, that's on you. Understanding GCD and building resource regen (primary resource) to match your spammable cost allows you to have high sustain.

If your spammable is say 1500 per cast, you build your sustain to half of that (750) and you are using proper LA weaving, which is, LA, Skill, LA, Skill, LA etc, you will be gaining back your resource cost for your spammable.

GCD is 1 second, building in a LA between spammable and waiting for skill cooldown will enable that regen (remember 750 per second for this example) to eliminate the cost of your skill by the time you cast it again.

If you are having further sustain issues, that is a core problem with group composition (in which the tank and healer should be providing buffs that help sustain) and your own choice of sets. In a properly constructed Trial group, you should almost never run out of resources unless YOU are built wrong.

Now, how exactly is a HA build creating an issue with sustain when they have to hold down the attack for an entire 5 seconds to regain resources? Yes, there are some skills that can be cross cast while HA is held, but guess what, you can do that on LA two-bar builds too. The fact that HA builds MUST do nothing but attack for nearly 5 seconds is negating the advantage of resource regen by not allowing them to cast more skills.

A two-bar LA build can cast more skills, do more damage AND regen resources when using proper weaving and allowing for cooldown of skills.

You not understanding GCD and weaving is not a sustain issue, nor is it a HA build issue.

The spammable of LA build cost resources, the "spammable" of HA restores resources instead. That's the core problem with HA builds regarding sustain.

You're right, when you say there is a problem in a player's build as well as in group composition if the build isn't sustainable in content. There is only one exception to this general rule: Bring 8 HA builds and neither you nor your group have to even think about sustain anymore (in fact brokensoul is often played with 64 points in stamina as it's just impossible to ever run out of resources). If you played LA builds in former times you are aware of this significant difference very well.

You may clear vAS+2 with this build without need to incorporate even a single skill (another core element of this game since launch), it's sufficient to constantly HA.

And you're free to ignore most mechanics while doing so, as you have HP and resistances of a tank.

You call that build balanced? Well, it's your right to do so.

I call it broken as hell and harmful for the game's health in general.

[edited for further reaction]

TybaltKaine wrote: »

It seems like the issue most of you have is with one set, Sergeant's Mail. That set should be altered to only apply bonus damage on the final tick, which would erase the supposedly "unfair" advantage that a single bar, HA build has when using a Lightning Staff and Oakensoul.

That's not ALL HA builds though, and acting like it is, and that every HA build is designed the same way is disingenuous at best.

It seems we understand each other better now, as the change you suggest now is exactly what is demanded (I did so on page 3 of this thread for example). I also voted several times for more build diversity regarding HA builds as I want to see them as a viable option for content. All HA builds except this single "sergeant brokensoul" are in dare need of some buffs in my opinion.

But using sergeant's mail, storm master, oakensoul and a lightning staff while doing nothing else but "pressing a button" and negating game mechanics as well as groupplay to get easy clears is not the way to do it.

Soarora

Katlefiya wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

sorry no they don't.... while everyone else running 2 bar builds have to work hard for that high dmg... HA builds hold left click.... and OCCASIONALLY press a skill button.....and yes... I have tried the HA sorc build.... destroyed my sergeants and stormmaster setup shortly after.... HA sorcs/builds should not be able to be coming as close as they are to dmg as a fully setup 2 bar DD. I have talked to quite a few of my mid-tier dps friends and they have all said the same thing... "what's the point anymore... when a HA build can out dps me" that is EXTREMELY disheartening to hear from friends

First of all: who decides at which point close is "too close"? Second: if a HA build can out dps you, maybe - just maybe - you are not that good with your 2 bar build rotations as you think you are? Should a "fully setup 2 bar DD" really deserve more DPS by default just for equipping a certain type of setup?

Objectively, OakenHA is easier than traditional. The build is too close when people are using OakenHA in a “it is meta for this situation” and no matter what anyone says about “but I don’t do that much damage” and “it’s people who can already do traditional”, this is a massive problem. Especially because it’s people who can already do traditional. You want AS? You want no death? You want 3dps? You want unchained? OakenHA. OakenHA. OakenHA. OakenHA. If the survivability were cut substantially then most of the problem would be solved. And this IS a problem.

Secondly, there’s two parts to the “well maybe you should get good if HA is better than you”. One, midgame DPS are just using oakenHA because it gets them more damage and thus they never learn how to get good on traditional. Secondly, it’s NOT about getting better on traditional. HA has insane cleave, it’s topping DPS in trials. We see this over and over again. In dungeons, it’s equal or a little worse most of the time. Though, even the equality is questionable given again, the build is much easier. This is coming from someone who does ~30-80k single target in content depending on supports and fight and parses 100k. There’s not much room for “gitting gud” enough to do more damage than a HA build consistently.

Thirdly, heck yes a traditional build in the hands of a midgame player should do more dps than a HA build otherwise they’ll just stick to HA because “everything just melts” (exact quote I have personally heard from many people who have switched to HA).

I think this is another “you don’t know what you’re talking about” situation, and that’s that. OakenHA as it is right now is a problem in endgame and midgame. It doesn’t matter that people may only hit 60k with their oakenHA build. It doesn’t matter that there are disabled people (it’s harsh but the truth). It doesn’t matter that it’s “balancing at the top”. The top still matters. OakenHA is too strong. Way too survivable, too much cleave. End of story.

NyassaV

It's a matter of effort and reward for that effort.

A Heavy attack build should absolutely be able to clear content at the end game level. Should they be able to do it as well as someone who is light attacking and bar swapping? Not really. At the end of the day as long as you can get a clear with a heavy attack build there is no reason to complain.

maxjapank

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

I'm still waiting for a statement why exactly you do think a build which is negating a core mechanic like sustain entirely should be viable for any content in this game.

HA folks are always talking about gatekeeping, elitism, disabilities. But if you try to argue with them about the game itself and the implemented mechanics the only answer you get is embarassed silence and more of the same accusations every single time.

It's amusing to be honest.

What’s amusing is players, like yourself, who have never experienced playing a HA to any degree, thinking they can comment on it. Both 2 bar builds and HA builds have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, HA builds do not have the same power or versatility that a 2 bar build brings. You talk about not needing to worry about resources, but we actually do at times. And as someone pointed out, if you’re having trouble maintaining resources on your 2 bar build, then that’s on you.

One key point that often goes overlooked is that HA builds require a channel. And channeling not only snares you big time, but puts you at risk for one-shot and dmg mechanics. You have to be much more wary of what’s going on if you don’t want to stop mid-channel because that takes a big hit on your overall dmg. Two bar build with instant casting and light attack weaving have so much more freedom to dps on the move.

I suggest you experience playing a HA build and seeing exactly what you can achieve in dmg. All I see is someone talking about stuff that you actually know nothing about. That’s both amusing and sad.

Soarora

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

I'm still waiting for a statement why exactly you do think a build which is negating a core mechanic like sustain entirely should be viable for any content in this game.

HA folks are always talking about gatekeeping, elitism, disabilities. But if you try to argue with them about the game itself and the implemented mechanics the only answer you get is embarassed silence and more of the same accusations every single time.

It's amusing to be honest.

What’s amusing is players, like yourself, who have never experienced playing a HA to any degree, thinking they can comment on it. Both 2 bar builds and HA builds have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, HA builds do not have the same power or versatility that a 2 bar build brings. You talk about not needing to worry about resources, but we actually do at times. And as someone pointed out, if you’re having trouble maintaining resources on your 2 bar build, then that’s on you.

One key point that often goes overlooked is that HA builds require a channel. And channeling not only snares you big time, but puts you at risk for one-shot and dmg mechanics. You have to be much more wary of what’s going on if you don’t want to stop mid-channel because that takes a big hit on your overall dmg. Two bar build with instant casting and light attack weaving have so much more freedom to dps on the move.

I suggest you experience playing a HA build and seeing exactly what you can achieve in dmg. All I see is someone talking about stuff that you actually know nothing about. That’s both amusing and sad.

Fun fact! Every single one of my opinions come from people who play both traditional and HA builds, either their direct opinions or my opinions are based upon their complaining. And by people, I mean several people. So the "you can't comment on it because you haven't tried it yourself" argument also doesn't really work here.
When it comes to channeling and dying... well oakensoul users can ignore certain mechanics due to their way-too-high survivability. This is not simply a claim from others, this is a claim I see backed-up with my two very own eyes over, and over again. So already don't need to worry about that while traditional builds do. On channeling, you're not special. OakenHA can't block-cast but neither can sorcerer or templar or some other builds (such as bloodthirst users I believe). Block-casting isn't all that common of a necessity either. There's also just not that much content that would actually have the snare be a problem, especially with the oaken survivability. Most content is just stack and burn, no need to move.
Regardless on specific cases where you may find oakenHA to be more difficult, the result is the same. It is too strong for the positives it has.

I strongly believe that at the very least, the defensive capabilities of oakensoul need to be removed from the DPS. If not all three, then minor aegis. If that makes oakenHA harder, good. It needs a strong trade-off. If it makes oakenHA a complete burden, then change empower to also reduce the snare from HA or give a small shield when channeling.

Braffin

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

I'm still waiting for a statement why exactly you do think a build which is negating a core mechanic like sustain entirely should be viable for any content in this game.

HA folks are always talking about gatekeeping, elitism, disabilities. But if you try to argue with them about the game itself and the implemented mechanics the only answer you get is embarassed silence and more of the same accusations every single time.

It's amusing to be honest.

What’s amusing is players, like yourself, who have never experienced playing a HA to any degree, thinking they can comment on it. Both 2 bar builds and HA builds have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, HA builds do not have the same power or versatility that a 2 bar build brings. You talk about not needing to worry about resources, but we actually do at times. And as someone pointed out, if you’re having trouble maintaining resources on your 2 bar build, then that’s on you.

Again nothing but assumptions and accusations here

But please, enlighten me: How exactly may a HA build played by a not completely clueless player run out of resources? Do you talk about your off-stat (stamina, if you don't know that for yourself) for blocking and dodging? Well, everybody has to do that, but otherwise HA builds simply can't run out of resources (btw: running out of stamina on a magicka based build due to performing defensive actions shows only a significant lack of a player's skill).

maxjapank wrote: »

One key point that often goes overlooked is that HA builds require a channel. And channeling not only snares you big time, but puts you at risk for one-shot and dmg mechanics. You have to be much more wary of what’s going on if you don’t want to stop mid-channel because that takes a big hit on your overall dmg. Two bar build with instant casting and light attack weaving have so much more freedom to dps on the move.

Well, sergeant brokensoul has 30k HP and resistances of a tank to avoid the described problem, hasn't he? You should know that very well, if you play that build for yourself.

You say aborting the occassional channel on a fully ranged build due to the necessity of following mechanics (a annoyance, I know ) is more limiting than staying in range with a melee build while following mechanics or recast field-based damage skills (at the cost of resources of course) after a boss moved. I would be ashamed if I presented such a weak excuse of a defense for my favourite build.

To be clear: The claim that HA builds have to be more aware of mechanics due to movement restrictions is outright a lie, as on the contrary most one-shot mechanics in actual content are bypassed by HP and resistances. If the player using this build is competent enough to shield himself in between two HA (I think it's reasonable to press a second button during a channel of a FHA) most of the damage is avoided without any movement necessary.

maxjapank wrote: »

I suggest you experience playing a HA build and seeing exactly what you can achieve in dmg. All I see is someone talking about stuff that you actually know nothing about. That’s both amusing and sad.

Well, I indeed played HA builds during the time of broken sustain, if you remember that times. But that's not of any importance here. You may of course deny me any knowledge about game mechanics here, I honestly don't care.

I just want to draw your attention to the fact that you deny yourself any competence in talking about mechanics and builds while doing so, given your lack of rational arguments.

That said: I wish you the best, enjoy yourself and your sergeant brokensoul (while it lasts at least) and happy channeling.

Soarora

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

I'm still waiting for a statement why exactly you do think a build which is negating a core mechanic like sustain entirely should be viable for any content in this game.

HA folks are always talking about gatekeeping, elitism, disabilities. But if you try to argue with them about the game itself and the implemented mechanics the only answer you get is embarassed silence and more of the same accusations every single time.

It's amusing to be honest.

What’s amusing is players, like yourself, who have never experienced playing a HA to any degree, thinking they can comment on it. Both 2 bar builds and HA builds have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, HA builds do not have the same power or versatility that a 2 bar build brings. You talk about not needing to worry about resources, but we actually do at times. And as someone pointed out, if you’re having trouble maintaining resources on your 2 bar build, then that’s on you.

Again nothing but assumptions and accusations here

But please, enlighten me: How exactly may a HA build played by a not completely clueless player run out of resources? Do you talk about your off-stat (stamina, if you don't know that for yourself) for blocking and dodging? Well, everybody has to do that, but otherwise HA builds simply can't run out of resources (btw: running out of stamina on a magicka based build due to performing defensive actions shows only a significant lack of a player's skill).

There are people who do max stam instead of max mag because of that and crystal weapon (I'll be honest, my HA build also goes max stam now. Yes I have a HA build. It's 2 bar and I don't even use it much.. anyways...) but that just further proves the point about sustain. You don't need max mag with your magicka skills (even on 2-bar I can sustain...) you just heavy attack.

Braffin

Soarora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's pointless to argue with people which are outright refusing to acknowledge provided facts.

Maybe you just don’t understand what’s being said because you have little experience using a HA build. So many who want to see if nerfed, claim so many far fetched “facts”. It’s not that hard for us who do play a HA build to see the ignorance.

I'm still waiting for a statement why exactly you do think a build which is negating a core mechanic like sustain entirely should be viable for any content in this game.

HA folks are always talking about gatekeeping, elitism, disabilities. But if you try to argue with them about the game itself and the implemented mechanics the only answer you get is embarassed silence and more of the same accusations every single time.

It's amusing to be honest.

What’s amusing is players, like yourself, who have never experienced playing a HA to any degree, thinking they can comment on it. Both 2 bar builds and HA builds have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, HA builds do not have the same power or versatility that a 2 bar build brings. You talk about not needing to worry about resources, but we actually do at times. And as someone pointed out, if you’re having trouble maintaining resources on your 2 bar build, then that’s on you.

Again nothing but assumptions and accusations here

But please, enlighten me: How exactly may a HA build played by a not completely clueless player run out of resources? Do you talk about your off-stat (stamina, if you don't know that for yourself) for blocking and dodging? Well, everybody has to do that, but otherwise HA builds simply can't run out of resources (btw: running out of stamina on a magicka based build due to performing defensive actions shows only a significant lack of a player's skill).

There are people who do max stam instead of max mag because of that and crystal weapon (I'll be honest, my HA build also goes max stam now. Yes I have a HA build. It's 2 bar and I don't even use it much.. anyways...) but that just further proves the point about sustain. You don't need max mag with your magicka skills (even on 2-bar I can sustain...) you just heavy attack.

Yeah, already hinted about that somewhere above

Fun fact btw: I don't use HA builds anymore as I had to do it when sustain was broken (around morrowind release I think) for endgame raiding. When finally stam builds became viable for the first time I immediately switched to stam dk and felt free again, as for me HA all the time is simply boring. But I crafted a build back then for HA sorc (except execute phase) using grothdarr if melee range was applicable to raise dps quite a bit

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

what is stopping people from having one character with HA build ? and doing what they want with others ? most random groups are still going to be extremely unenjoyable with or without it, it just makes gameplay alot easier with it. Even i admit that the HA build can do what my other character took a long time to achieve with half the effort but 'putting it out there' about how the game is too easy now for new players and HA being over-powerful is like being a snitch behind bars or even like mentioned just people with thier own exact dps numbers complaining they cant out-dps other players by the whole length of the pool anymore..so why on earth change a thing ! when everyone complains about how the few can now enjoy eso in a better way while anyone around for any length of time and has multiple characters knows the benefits of having one character like this..10% is too much it should just be left alone..and so should the people using said build nobody is forcing anyone to play alongside them if they dont want but those same people are likely the ones always complaining 'dps too low' about other players in the past and kicking them. if people want a golden star for past efforts give them that instead please

The changes are made because the devs think this build is overtuned in relation to the effort needed playing it as you may read in the according patchnotes anytime for yourself.

Most of the players I know share this opinion and think it's unhealthy for the game in general. The reasons for that can be read after in this thread as well as various others. If you decide to think about this reasons or rather prefer to ignore them is up to you.

That said, you will now surely understand that every single time when zos "lowered the ceiling" for balancing purposes (be it u35 or any of the many adjustments before) someone lost a playstyle he liked.

You also seem to suggest (I'm not completely sure tho, your text is rather complicated to read), that every player should at least have one char with HA build.

Well, why should we? Play as you want it is and I neither need this broken build to reach my personal goals nor do I have any interest in playing it. Simply too boring for my taste. You'll have to respect that.

Btw: For a player which is pretending to be able of "showing the ropes" (while unable to follow mechanics of basegame dungeons (!) due to wrong positioning) you sound rather desperate. Calm down, there is no need for that.

You won't be harmed by the upcoming changes, if you didn't intend to exploit sergeant brokensoul for easy clears in vAS+2.

And as far as I read in all the threads about this topic, nobody is ever doing that

Daoin

In my opinion and just an educated guess not much will change for those that choose not to use thier HA builds as much now, probably those that used it to great effect and for good of the game were likely better players than those against the build anyway all thats happened is ego's have been pampered. im just hoping next post here says 'meh change un noticable' after patch time (for those of us with many characters running around vet dungeons not expecting top1% damage from them all the time with damage add ons to tell the others we did 80% of damage) on one more note AS is now 6 years old if things like this cant be nerfed to make way for better form of content what furure does eso have ?

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

In my opinion and just an educated guess not much will change for those that choose not to use thier HA builds as much now, probably those that used it to great effect and for good of the game were likely better players than those against the build anyway all thats happened is ego's have been pampered. im just hoping next post here says 'meh change un noticable' after patch time (for those of us with many characters running around vet dungeons not expecting top1% damage from them all the time with damage add ons to tell the others we did 80% of damage) on one more note AS is now 6 years old if things like this cant be nerfed to make way for better form of content what furure does eso have ?

I'm sure eso will do fine as well as the top broaken HA players. The very best always adapted to changes rather quick

Daoin

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

In my opinion and just an educated guess not much will change for those that choose not to use thier HA builds as much now, probably those that used it to great effect and for good of the game were likely better players than those against the build anyway all thats happened is ego's have been pampered. im just hoping next post here says 'meh change un noticable' after patch time (for those of us with many characters running around vet dungeons not expecting top1% damage from them all the time with damage add ons to tell the others we did 80% of damage) on one more note AS is now 6 years old if things like this cant be nerfed to make way for better form of content what furure does eso have ?

I'm sure eso will do fine as well as the top broaken HA players. The very best always adapted to changes rather quick

reminds me of a song ..'here i go again on my own''...'going down the only road i've.....' i remember now (whitesnake) should have listened to that while supersorc was still active added more fun to what was already going on guess though you got you roles cut out for you again now just hope you can get around to all the groups that supersorc got to and improved things with your improved so much light attack weave patterns that that a culling was needed. all this could have been avoided if you just kept your own trial dummy in a basement somewhere for conformation times again though offer still stands, the day you prove to me that having you in a group is going to be in any way more better than HA i will stand corrected, thing is this..you just cant in action..only words..and to me this says you really must not have enough exerience with alot of different groups to be able to have seen the difference this build makes all around to the actual real then and there groups in game. my sorc was made in BETA eso, the first character i ever made so i compare this to how i admit my own experience has been withthis and my other characters but still i say for others in game and how that effects eso as a whole, was a big improvement no where near as game breakingly good you portray this build to be, the sorc just was not broke my friend. i have always been against personally weave and la training on dummies and never had a problem that those that did would get more dps than i, then again i am against elitism too which always left me in a bad position in groups before HA 90% of the time when listening to complaints that should have been adressed years ago anyway. what we need now are less group dps add ons and a game bot to say things like 'dps low' or 'help revive' rather than have to put up with hearing the same old rubish in groups for more years to come than those that have already passed

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

In my opinion and just an educated guess not much will change for those that choose not to use thier HA builds as much now, probably those that used it to great effect and for good of the game were likely better players than those against the build anyway all thats happened is ego's have been pampered. im just hoping next post here says 'meh change un noticable' after patch time (for those of us with many characters running around vet dungeons not expecting top1% damage from them all the time with damage add ons to tell the others we did 80% of damage) on one more note AS is now 6 years old if things like this cant be nerfed to make way for better form of content what furure does eso have ?

I'm sure eso will do fine as well as the top broaken HA players. The very best always adapted to changes rather quick

reminds me of a song ..'here i go again on my own''...'going down the only road i've.....' i remember now (whitesnake) should have listened to that while supersorc was still active added more fun to what was already going on guess though you got you roles cut out for you again now just hope you can get around to all the groups that supersorc got to and improved things with your improved so much light attack weave patterns that that a culling was needed. all this could have been avoided if you just kept your own trial dummy in a basement somewhere for conformation times again though offer still stands, the day you prove to me that having you in a group is going to be in any way more better than HA i will stand corrected, thing is this..you just cant in action..only words..and to me this says you really must not have enough exerience with alot of different groups to be able to have seen the difference this build makes all around to the actual real then and there groups in game. my sorc was made in BETA eso, the first character i ever made so i compare this to how i admit my own experience has been withthis and my other characters but still i say for others in game and how that effects eso as a whole, was a big improvement no where near as game breakingly good you portray this build to be, the sorc just was not broke my friend. i have always been against personally weave and la training on dummies and never had a problem that those that did would get more dps than i, then again i am against elitism too which always left me in a bad position in groups before HA 90% of the time when listening to complaints that should have been adressed years ago anyway. what we need now are less group dps add ons and a game bot to say things like 'dps low' or 'help revive' rather than have to put up with hearing the same old rubish in groups for more years to come than those that have already passed

So now you're demanding the game itself should players blame for low dps?

That's genious 🤔

Quite a bit elitist, but nonetheless genious 😆

Daoin

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

In my opinion and just an educated guess not much will change for those that choose not to use thier HA builds as much now, probably those that used it to great effect and for good of the game were likely better players than those against the build anyway all thats happened is ego's have been pampered. im just hoping next post here says 'meh change un noticable' after patch time (for those of us with many characters running around vet dungeons not expecting top1% damage from them all the time with damage add ons to tell the others we did 80% of damage) on one more note AS is now 6 years old if things like this cant be nerfed to make way for better form of content what furure does eso have ?

I'm sure eso will do fine as well as the top broaken HA players. The very best always adapted to changes rather quick

reminds me of a song ..'here i go again on my own''...'going down the only road i've.....' i remember now (whitesnake) should have listened to that while supersorc was still active added more fun to what was already going on guess though you got you roles cut out for you again now just hope you can get around to all the groups that supersorc got to and improved things with your improved so much light attack weave patterns that that a culling was needed. all this could have been avoided if you just kept your own trial dummy in a basement somewhere for conformation times again though offer still stands, the day you prove to me that having you in a group is going to be in any way more better than HA i will stand corrected, thing is this..you just cant in action..only words..and to me this says you really must not have enough exerience with alot of different groups to be able to have seen the difference this build makes all around to the actual real then and there groups in game. my sorc was made in BETA eso, the first character i ever made so i compare this to how i admit my own experience has been withthis and my other characters but still i say for others in game and how that effects eso as a whole, was a big improvement no where near as game breakingly good you portray this build to be, the sorc just was not broke my friend. i have always been against personally weave and la training on dummies and never had a problem that those that did would get more dps than i, then again i am against elitism too which always left me in a bad position in groups before HA 90% of the time when listening to complaints that should have been adressed years ago anyway. what we need now are less group dps add ons and a game bot to say things like 'dps low' or 'help revive' rather than have to put up with hearing the same old rubish in groups for more years to come than those that have already passed

So now you're demanding the game itself should players blame for low dps?

That's genious 🤔

Quite a bit elitist, but nonetheless genious 😆

sorry post a bit boring now not going to return to it, if the day ever comes you understand a word being said by anyone in suppoert of HA build you can pm me in game to explain or inquire im not hiding its Dao like here. but if we end in group and because of your stance here if you cant do the job of 2 HA builds im blocking you and refusing to group with you again in random 4 person groups, thats 2 HA build not one or same as or equal to one, only option for you is remain anonymous ingame while having much to say here. thanks for re-igniting my interest in the '87 music video, been a while since i gamed and music same time in another tab p:s compare him and what he says to supersorc then take a look shall we say at other things ! (Whitesnake '87 -here i go again-)

Daoin

Thanks to all supersorcs out there for all inspiration around eso lately breath of life into what was fast becoming a decaying corspe

Zastrix

Ye I see a lot of people saying but heavy build can't outdps a normal build and that a 2bar build will always outdps a broakensoul build. Have you ever, like, tried to do content and look at the logs?

In most content, unless you're a DK which is a different problem altogether, you're PROBABLY going to be outdps'd by an oakensoul. Maybe not in a pure parse like let's say vSS Lokke when you don't do tombs, but for the rest of 99% of content whre there's a lot of cleave you are due to pen, lack of buffs, etc.

I like how oakensorcs just give an argument of hypothetically they CAN'T do damage as a 2 bar build and then just completely ignore that in content they are, in face, outdps-ing.

Maybe not in 0.00000001% of REALLY REAAAALLY optimized groups but from what I know that number is REALLY low to actually matter.

Oh and hi:

Zastrix wrote: »

Also I just had a vDSR run in a guild:

Yesterday I got out DPSd in vERE HM because:

• On first boss they didn't need to move out of the AOE too much due to resistances, shields and critical surge. For a normal DD like me an AOE is basically a oneshot, so, you know, I had to follow mechanics whereas an Oakensorcs did not. I had to worry about mag and stamina while an oakensorc had to look at stamina from time to time barely. I had to, on the fly, risk it whether I should rolldodge and ramp up the cost of my next dodge or just have major evasion up and tank it. Are there going to be mechanics following this one.
• Second boss oakensorc out DPSd because they have too much cleave + pen + AOE. People ignore that you can only achieve oakensorc levels of damage in a trial where you have SPC+PA, RoJo, Tremor+pYolna+somthing, Tremor+Crimson+Saxhleel.
• Last boss I had to remove 2 dots to have healing, minor resistance + major evasion and completely focus mechanics.

It wasn't a whopping difference in values. It's like 37k vs 35k or something but still being out DPSd by someone holding one button and doing like half the mechanics isn't fun.

Now there are bound to be people saying it's a skill issue, and those will probably be oakensorcs. I dare you to do vERE HM without an oakensorc and see how hard of a HM it is on resources where you can't constantly rolldodge but basically are required to.

Daoin

and the guy doing lowest dps ? less work for you too in ERE then ? or where you in competition with the group(or other player if infact you were 2 dps) and not the dungeon, im pretty sure in longer fights if a whole group from bottom up where doing more dps that that amount of total dps needed would be being shaved off the top not the bottom also there are factors like group composition and what all are doing cant just post someone elses stats and say hey look at this guy and compare him to everyone else please, but again if not happy with your own dps than thats on you also, nothing stopping anyone from trying to achieve what has been shown, but when i commented on your post of someone elses run in guild last time for other reasons and was just a question time post was removed by admin once again defeating the purpose of question i had asked just quoting from who you originally showed that screenshot to

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

and the guy doing 72 dps ? less work for you too in ERE then ? or where you in competition with the group and not the dungeon

Shall be admonished by the game bot due to "low dps"

And no, I don't take you seriously anymore