I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

ForumBully

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

StaticWave

KilianDermoth wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stacking shield with healing is actually pretty OP tho lol.

Any other class has access to exactly this. Templars for example can even shield stack (their in class shield + light armor shield for example) + have a reliable burst heal that cant be killed and doesnt have to be double slotted. And they even get a superior Ball of Lightning skill next patch.

So you are saying templars are just absolutely OP right now? Cool, maybe we should try to tell this all the templar mains.

Sorry for the short reply earlier. Now that I'm on a PC I can type a more thorough counterargument.

Just because other classes have access to it doesn't mean it's as efficient.

First of all, Templars can only shield stack with a high HP build like what KristoferESO runs. The moment someone tries to mix and match a shield that scales with max HP and a shield that scales with max Magicka, the build has already failed.

This leads to the second issue of your argument - You're assuming that the shield stacking on a templar is as efficient as a magsorc's shield stacking. It's not. We've just established that Templars can only shield stack via max HP, which means they're literally sacrificing damage to have a bigger shield. Not only that, but they're also sacrificing healing tooltip because their max offensive stats are lowered. If you watch KristoferESO plays his shield Templar, you'll see that he actually doesn't run a burst heal because his max offensive stats are so low there's no point slotting one.

On a magsorc, shields scale off max offense, so you could quite literally build into max damage and benefit from both a bigger shield AND bigger heals. This is the core issue I'm talking about. When you have a sorc that can run a shield, 2 HoTs, and a burst heal, you've created a class that's not only mobile, has high burst, but also very hard to kill. Just watch the OP @MetallicMonk 's latest 1vX video with Hardened, Vigor, and Crit Surge and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0D3OQgNI3g&t=2s

Before anyone tries to say he was fighting bad players in the clip, I'll go ahead and let people know that he's quite literally tanking 5+ people with 1 shield. If shields were bad, he wouldn't be tanking 5 people.

StaticWave

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

This is what you said:

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

I responded with a hypothetical scenario where old shields would stack up to the damage of now. It's pretty obvious how strong they would be when the current meta is stacking crit damage.

Show you a max stat builds of today is a valid argument. Old sorcs didn't need Major Resolve or Impen because shields weren't crittable nor benefit from from armor. They'd be able to pump everything into damage and also have the healing of today's hybridization.

ForumBully

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

This is what you said:

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

I responded with a hypothetical scenario where old shields would stack up to the damage of now. It's pretty obvious how strong they would be when the current meta is stacking crit damage.

Show you a max stat builds of today is a valid argument. Old sorcs didn't need Major Resolve or Impen because shields weren't crittable nor benefit from from armor. They'd be able to pump everything into damage and also have the healing of today's hybridization.

But I know what it looks like...why make the build? Even that isn't what sorcs were because you can't make that anymore unless youve got a build editor time machine. It's not in a live environment fighting a DK today....it was just "here's a build and it's OP today, trust me"

StaticWave

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

This is what you said:

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

I responded with a hypothetical scenario where old shields would stack up to the damage of now. It's pretty obvious how strong they would be when the current meta is stacking crit damage.

Show you a max stat builds of today is a valid argument. Old sorcs didn't need Major Resolve or Impen because shields weren't crittable nor benefit from from armor. They'd be able to pump everything into damage and also have the healing of today's hybridization.

But I know what it looks like...why make the build? Even that isn't what sorcs were because you can't make that anymore unless youve got a build editor time machine. It's not in a live environment fighting a DK today....it was just "here's a build and it's OP today, trust me"

Why make the build? Because you literally said "I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong"

If you know they were pretty strong, then I don't understand why you don't think it would also be strong in today's meta where everyone builds for crit damage and hybridization is also a thing. Old shield being uncrittable is a perfect counter for today's damage.

I made the build because a sorc with old shields can just build into full damage and indirectly benefit from it defensively instead of having to build into damage and defense. It's a byproduct of shields being uncrittable. You don't need to slot Rallying Cry or Chudan or use any Impen traits.

You have to look at it as a whole picture. The ripple effects exist.

ForumBully

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

This is what you said:

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

I responded with a hypothetical scenario where old shields would stack up to the damage of now. It's pretty obvious how strong they would be when the current meta is stacking crit damage.

Show you a max stat builds of today is a valid argument. Old sorcs didn't need Major Resolve or Impen because shields weren't crittable nor benefit from from armor. They'd be able to pump everything into damage and also have the healing of today's hybridization.

But I know what it looks like...why make the build? Even that isn't what sorcs were because you can't make that anymore unless youve got a build editor time machine. It's not in a live environment fighting a DK today....it was just "here's a build and it's OP today, trust me"

Why make the build? Because you literally said "I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong"

If you know they were pretty strong, then I don't understand why you don't think it would also be strong in today's meta where everyone builds for crit damage and hybridization is also a thing. Old shield being uncrittable is a perfect counter for today's damage.

I made the build because a sorc with old shields can just build into full damage and indirectly benefit from it defensively instead of having to build into damage and defense. It's a byproduct of shields being uncrittable. You don't need to slot Rallying Cry or Chudan or use any Impen traits.

You have to look at it as a whole picture. The ripple effects exist.

Curious to see doesn't mean curious to hypothesize with a visual aid. Forget it, drifting off topic.

ForumBully

I'm pretty much content to run around with 40k+ health and a larger shield next update since that's how I'm supposed to play, but revisiting the passives to give me a little Crit chance to make Surge better would help out of the alternative is slotting the dodo.

StaticWave

If the 40k HP build has more damage than a typical magsorc build, maybe. Otherwise I don't see how one should stack max HP.

Sergykid

branstark wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

sorcs have kinda an identity now, nothing should be changed really.
magsorcs are in a good spot, they are just harder to perform than they used to, and so the "majority" sees it as weak. But will be even better with coming shield buffs.
stamsorc is in a very good spot already, think that any buff to "sorc" will boost this style too

I’m sorry but how can you say magsorcs are in a good place right now? Have you played one in pvp recently?

yes i fight good magsorcs in highest mmr bgs, as i said and i repeat, magsorcs are harder, and the common player will have a hard time with it and will call it weak. But they have the damage, the mobility, the sustain. Absorb shields can keep one alive in an 1v1 forever just like any direct heal, their weakness is that they not crit, but instead can be applied before taking the damage. I have videos fighting them and another to come against magsorcs. I get every bg at least a magsorc, i even got 3-4 in a team sometimes. They get good scores and unless ganked they don't die cuz just streak away.
Gap closers are not so popular anymore and if u use terrain properly those speed cappers won't reach u as easily.

they're not as good as the top ones obviously but not as bad as made to seem. They don't need any nerf except small one to streak, and buff to ward is fine i guess.
.

Brrrofski

StaticWave wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stacking shield with healing is actually pretty OP tho lol.

Any other class has access to exactly this. Templars for example can even shield stack (their in class shield + light armor shield for example) + have a reliable burst heal that cant be killed and doesnt have to be double slotted. And they even get a superior Ball of Lightning skill next patch.

So you are saying templars are just absolutely OP right now? Cool, maybe we should try to tell this all the templar mains.

Sorry for the short reply earlier. Now that I'm on a PC I can type a more thorough counterargument.

Just because other classes have access to it doesn't mean it's as efficient.

First of all, Templars can only shield stack with a high HP build like what KristoferESO runs. The moment someone tries to mix and match a shield that scales with max HP and a shield that scales with max Magicka, the build has already failed.

This leads to the second issue of your argument - You're assuming that the shield stacking on a templar is as efficient as a magsorc's shield stacking. It's not. We've just established that Templars can only shield stack via max HP, which means they're literally sacrificing damage to have a bigger shield. Not only that, but they're also sacrificing healing tooltip because their max offensive stats are lowered. If you watch KristoferESO plays his shield Templar, you'll see that he actually doesn't run a burst heal because his max offensive stats are so low there's no point slotting one.

On a magsorc, shields scale off max offense, so you could quite literally build into max damage and benefit from both a bigger shield AND bigger heals. This is the core issue I'm talking about. When you have a sorc that can run a shield, 2 HoTs, and a burst heal, you've created a class that's not only mobile, has high burst, but also very hard to kill. Just watch the OP @MetallicMonk 's latest 1vX video with Hardened, Vigor, and Crit Surge and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0D3OQgNI3g&t=2s

Before anyone tries to say he was fighting bad players in the clip, I'll go ahead and let people know that he's quite literally tanking 5+ people with 1 shield. If shields were bad, he wouldn't be tanking 5 people.

To me it looks like he's tanking 5+ people with Mara's Balm to be honest. There's a lot of 1k healing ticks going on.

Which is the only decent way to play sorc at the moment because healing is so trash.

Not sure what else would be giving such regular healing ticks. I don't see entropy (whichever morphs heals) on his bar.

Plus he has ticks when he's not on offensive, so I don't think it's surge

KilianDermoth

grzes848909 wrote: »

Another thing, there is one pet that nobody ever uses: ''the Summon Unstable Clannfear'' whos ability is the same as twilight matriarch but only heals you for same price as the twilight matriarch; its crap tbh. One could replace the instant heal it provides with passive heal that ticks every 2 seconds for as long its alive and or either have additional ability to increase that hot by casting the pet again.

You are completely wrong here! And your idea is really bad. I hope they wont ever do this. Reason: its a great heal for tanks (especially PvE). This change would just make me not wanting to tank on my Sorc anymore at all.

Also the heals are not the same. Matriarch scales with Magicka, Clannfear with health.

branstark wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

...

I’m sorry but how can you say magsorcs are in a good place right now? Have you played one in pvp recently?

No he is Nightblade and keeps saying such stuff in every Sorc thread. [snip]

[post edited for minor baiting]

Turtle_Bot

KilianDermoth wrote: »

grzes848909 wrote: »

Another thing, there is one pet that nobody ever uses: ''the Summon Unstable Clannfear'' whos ability is the same as twilight matriarch but only heals you for same price as the twilight matriarch; its crap tbh. One could replace the instant heal it provides with passive heal that ticks every 2 seconds for as long its alive and or either have additional ability to increase that hot by casting the pet again.

You are completely wrong here! And your idea is really bad. I hope they wont ever do this. Reason: its a great heal for tanks (especially PvE). This change would just make me not wanting to tank on my Sorc anymore at all.

Also the heals are not the same. Matriarch scales with Magicka, Clannfear with health.

branstark wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

...

I’m sorry but how can you say magsorcs are in a good place right now? Have you played one in pvp recently?

No he is Nightblade and keeps saying such stuff in every Sorc thread. [snip]

ahhh, he's a NB main, that explains a lot.......

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stacking shield with healing is actually pretty OP tho lol.

Any other class has access to exactly this. Templars for example can even shield stack (their in class shield + light armor shield for example) + have a reliable burst heal that cant be killed and doesnt have to be double slotted. And they even get a superior Ball of Lightning skill next patch.

So you are saying templars are just absolutely OP right now? Cool, maybe we should try to tell this all the templar mains.

Sorry for the short reply earlier. Now that I'm on a PC I can type a more thorough counterargument.

Just because other classes have access to it doesn't mean it's as efficient.

First of all, Templars can only shield stack with a high HP build like what KristoferESO runs. The moment someone tries to mix and match a shield that scales with max HP and a shield that scales with max Magicka, the build has already failed.

This leads to the second issue of your argument - You're assuming that the shield stacking on a templar is as efficient as a magsorc's shield stacking. It's not. We've just established that Templars can only shield stack via max HP, which means they're literally sacrificing damage to have a bigger shield. Not only that, but they're also sacrificing healing tooltip because their max offensive stats are lowered. If you watch KristoferESO plays his shield Templar, you'll see that he actually doesn't run a burst heal because his max offensive stats are so low there's no point slotting one.

On a magsorc, shields scale off max offense, so you could quite literally build into max damage and benefit from both a bigger shield AND bigger heals. This is the core issue I'm talking about. When you have a sorc that can run a shield, 2 HoTs, and a burst heal, you've created a class that's not only mobile, has high burst, but also very hard to kill. Just watch the OP @MetallicMonk 's latest 1vX video with Hardened, Vigor, and Crit Surge and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0D3OQgNI3g&t=2s

Before anyone tries to say he was fighting bad players in the clip, I'll go ahead and let people know that he's quite literally tanking 5+ people with 1 shield. If shields were bad, he wouldn't be tanking 5 people.

To me it looks like he's tanking 5+ people with Mara's Balm to be honest. There's a lot of 1k healing ticks going on.

Which is the only decent way to play sorc at the moment because healing is so trash.

Not sure what else would be giving such regular healing ticks. I don't see entropy (whichever morphs heals) on his bar.

Plus he has ticks when he's not on offensive, so I don't think it's surge

He's a magsorc in Wretched Vitality and Rallying Cry. Why would he run Mara's Balm...

StaticWave

Also, you can see the debuffs under his health bar. If he was indeed in Mara's Balm they would have been cleansed away.

I know the exact build he's running and I've actually told many people on the forums what he runs in several buff sorc threads.
The build is 2x Chudan, 5x Rallying Cry front bar, 5x Wretched Vitality back bar, 1x Trainee 1x DDF. It's actually a pretty solid hybrid build.

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stacking shield with healing is actually pretty OP tho lol.

Any other class has access to exactly this. Templars for example can even shield stack (their in class shield + light armor shield for example) + have a reliable burst heal that cant be killed and doesnt have to be double slotted. And they even get a superior Ball of Lightning skill next patch.

So you are saying templars are just absolutely OP right now? Cool, maybe we should try to tell this all the templar mains.

Sorry for the short reply earlier. Now that I'm on a PC I can type a more thorough counterargument.

Just because other classes have access to it doesn't mean it's as efficient.

First of all, Templars can only shield stack with a high HP build like what KristoferESO runs. The moment someone tries to mix and match a shield that scales with max HP and a shield that scales with max Magicka, the build has already failed.

This leads to the second issue of your argument - You're assuming that the shield stacking on a templar is as efficient as a magsorc's shield stacking. It's not. We've just established that Templars can only shield stack via max HP, which means they're literally sacrificing damage to have a bigger shield. Not only that, but they're also sacrificing healing tooltip because their max offensive stats are lowered. If you watch KristoferESO plays his shield Templar, you'll see that he actually doesn't run a burst heal because his max offensive stats are so low there's no point slotting one.

On a magsorc, shields scale off max offense, so you could quite literally build into max damage and benefit from both a bigger shield AND bigger heals. This is the core issue I'm talking about. When you have a sorc that can run a shield, 2 HoTs, and a burst heal, you've created a class that's not only mobile, has high burst, but also very hard to kill. Just watch the OP @MetallicMonk 's latest 1vX video with Hardened, Vigor, and Crit Surge and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0D3OQgNI3g&t=2s

Before anyone tries to say he was fighting bad players in the clip, I'll go ahead and let people know that he's quite literally tanking 5+ people with 1 shield. If shields were bad, he wouldn't be tanking 5 people.

To me it looks like he's tanking 5+ people with Mara's Balm to be honest. There's a lot of 1k healing ticks going on.

Which is the only decent way to play sorc at the moment because healing is so trash.

Not sure what else would be giving such regular healing ticks. I don't see entropy (whichever morphs heals) on his bar.

Plus he has ticks when he's not on offensive, so I don't think it's surge

Btw, the small 1k ticks in parentheses you see were the shield values getting chipped away. He most likely doesn't have "display over healing" option ticked, so whenever he was at full HP his Crit Surge and Vigor heals did not show. The shield did though, which is why they were in parentheses. Those small 1k ticks were probably light attack dmg chipping the shield away. As soon as his real HP dropped you could start seeing those Vigor and Surge ticks popping up.

Bushido2513

Sergykid wrote: »

branstark wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

sorcs have kinda an identity now, nothing should be changed really.
magsorcs are in a good spot, they are just harder to perform than they used to, and so the "majority" sees it as weak. But will be even better with coming shield buffs.
stamsorc is in a very good spot already, think that any buff to "sorc" will boost this style too

I’m sorry but how can you say magsorcs are in a good place right now? Have you played one in pvp recently?

yes i fight good magsorcs in highest mmr bgs, as i said and i repeat, magsorcs are harder, and the common player will have a hard time with it and will call it weak. But they have the damage, the mobility, the sustain. Absorb shields can keep one alive in an 1v1 forever just like any direct heal, their weakness is that they not crit, but instead can be applied before taking the damage. I have videos fighting them and another to come against magsorcs. I get every bg at least a magsorc, i even got 3-4 in a team sometimes. They get good scores and unless ganked they don't die cuz just streak away.
Gap closers are not so popular anymore and if u use terrain properly those speed cappers won't reach u as easily.

they're not as good as the top ones obviously but not as bad as made to seem. They don't need any nerf except small one to streak, and buff to ward is fine i guess.
.

Ehhhh I think there's a few things missing here. Ok so if it's a 1v1 and you don't block or roll dodge and they are a good sorc with overload up yes you might get comboed. But if you do either of those and come towards them with damage they will streak away and reset and try again. That's pretty much the whole show. Yes it can hit hard but a lot of the damage is countered by decent gameplay.

If they start getting hit hard by any stronger class a streak is a when not if.

It would be nice to have the ability to choose to brawl a bit more or have a I'm more interesting damage kit with just a bit more nuance.


Also the sorc kit just doesn't.stand up well to even decent players rolling better classes. DK can just mitigate and out heal you. NB same just added mitigation method, Warden same and might purge your curse just because netch lol. All this with more damage in their kit.

Yes I can get kills on sorc, yes I can live through some of these classes fighting me but I'm working much harder than if I'm using one of those classes and I'm crutching much harder on sets and streak than they have to with more set choices and a better selection of good class skills.

There's hard to play as in a learning curve or specific skills then there's me driving a go-kart on the highway. It's not that bad but I'm definitely getting passed up and honked at.

AdamLAD

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, you can see the debuffs under his health bar. If he was indeed in Mara's Balm they would have been cleansed away.

I know the exact build he's running and I've actually told many people on the forums what he runs in several buff sorc threads.
The build is 2x Chudan, 5x Rallying Cry front bar, 5x Wretched Vitality back bar, 1x Trainee 1x DDF. It's actually a pretty solid hybrid build.

We are talking about magicka sorcerer not hybrid. The fact people have completely changed into hybrid sorcerers proves that magicka sorcerer is weaker

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, you can see the debuffs under his health bar. If he was indeed in Mara's Balm they would have been cleansed away.

I know the exact build he's running and I've actually told many people on the forums what he runs in several buff sorc threads.
The build is 2x Chudan, 5x Rallying Cry front bar, 5x Wretched Vitality back bar, 1x Trainee 1x DDF. It's actually a pretty solid hybrid build.

We are talking about magicka sorcerer not hybrid. The fact people have completely changed into hybrid sorcerers proves that magicka sorcerer is weaker

Everyone else is running hybrid. You’re basically saying magsorc is weaker than hybrid classes. Of course lol? @MetallicMonk is running a hybrid sorc and he’s on par with other classes in terms of offense and defense. That’s evident enough that people need to adapt before asking for buffs that could make a class OP.

Now if you were to say MAGsorc is weaker than MAGdk, MAGnb, MAGtemplar, etc. then we could have a more meaningful argument.

ForumBully

Is just running Vigor enough to be "Hybrid"? I don't see anything hybrid in Wretched/Rallying, which is what I use too, and I would still call it Magsorc since I do pretty much everything I've done in the past with Crushing, frags, Haunting...except I just use one shield which is strengthened by Rallying.
I stack spell power instead of Magicka, and next update instead of 40k mag and 30k health I'll have 40k health and 30k mag, but the same spell power.

Is this Hybrid?

StaticWave

ForumBully wrote: »

Is just running Vigor enough to be "Hybrid"? I don't see anything hybrid in Wretched/Rallying, which is what I use too, and I would still call it Magsorc since I do pretty much everything I've done in the past with Crushing, frags, Haunting...except I just use one shield which is strengthened by Rallying.
I stack spell power instead of Magicka, and next update instead of 40k mag and 30k health I'll have 40k health and 30k mag, but the same spell power.

Is this Hybrid?

He’s not even fully hybrid but he’s performing better than pure magsorc build is my point.

He fixed his weakness with 2 HoTs (Surge + Vigor) and the occasional Blood Magic heal. He also has very good damage.

I just don’t understand why some people refuse to adapt or play a stronger spec of their class, then complain about how weak their class is. It’s like me saying stamsorc’s damage is bad because I refuse to slot Curse. It just doesn’t make sense. You’re purposely gimping yourself by playing a weaker spec when a stronger one exists.

This is why the OP, @MetallicMonk, says he doesn’t want buffs to sorc. The class is fine if you stop playing it like the old ways.

jaws343

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Is just running Vigor enough to be "Hybrid"? I don't see anything hybrid in Wretched/Rallying, which is what I use too, and I would still call it Magsorc since I do pretty much everything I've done in the past with Crushing, frags, Haunting...except I just use one shield which is strengthened by Rallying.
I stack spell power instead of Magicka, and next update instead of 40k mag and 30k health I'll have 40k health and 30k mag, but the same spell power.

Is this Hybrid?

He’s not even fully hybrid but he’s performing better than pure magsorc build is my point.

He fixed his weakness with 2 HoTs (Surge + Vigor) and the occasional Blood Magic heal. He also has very good damage.

I just don’t understand why some people refuse to adapt or play a stronger spec of their class, then complain about how weak their class is. It’s like me saying stamsorc’s damage is bad because I refuse to slot Curse. It just doesn’t make sense. You’re purposely gimping yourself by playing a weaker spec when a stronger one exists.

This is why the OP, @MetallicMonk, says he doesn’t want buffs to sorc. The class is fine if you stop playing it like the old ways.

I mean, you kind of answer the question here. Magsorc option:

Use class defining defensive ability and be weaker for it.

Or do the same thing as every other class and stack heals, only, do that less effectively because nothing in the toolkit or skillset native to the class faciliates that in a decent way.

Either option puts sorcs at a disadvantage compared to other classes in both offense and defense.

If that isn't a testimony that shields need to be stronger, even stronger than the pitiful pass on PTS, then I don't know what else is.

KilianDermoth

And if this: https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?id=30474&version=37pts
is correct, then the shields might become even weaker because they only scale with health now, so if you build for damage and not for a huge amount of health you shield will be even weaker. Only the light armor skill still scales with Max Magicka.

=> The "buff" seems to be another nerf.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Is just running Vigor enough to be "Hybrid"? I don't see anything hybrid in Wretched/Rallying, which is what I use too, and I would still call it Magsorc since I do pretty much everything I've done in the past with Crushing, frags, Haunting...except I just use one shield which is strengthened by Rallying.
I stack spell power instead of Magicka, and next update instead of 40k mag and 30k health I'll have 40k health and 30k mag, but the same spell power.

Is this Hybrid?

He’s not even fully hybrid but he’s performing better than pure magsorc build is my point.

He fixed his weakness with 2 HoTs (Surge + Vigor) and the occasional Blood Magic heal. He also has very good damage.

I just don’t understand why some people refuse to adapt or play a stronger spec of their class, then complain about how weak their class is. It’s like me saying stamsorc’s damage is bad because I refuse to slot Curse. It just doesn’t make sense. You’re purposely gimping yourself by playing a weaker spec when a stronger one exists.

This is why the OP, @MetallicMonk, says he doesn’t want buffs to sorc. The class is fine if you stop playing it like the old ways.

I mean, you kind of answer the question here. Magsorc option:

Use class defining defensive ability and be weaker for it.

Or do the same thing as every other class and stack heals, only, do that less effectively because nothing in the toolkit or skillset native to the class faciliates that in a decent way.

Either option puts sorcs at a disadvantage compared to other classes in both offense and defense.

If that isn't a testimony that shields need to be stronger, even stronger than the pitiful pass on PTS, then I don't know what else is.

You only need to slot Vigor. I used the OP’s 1vX video as an example because not only does he use the majority of class skills, but he’s also fixing his weakness by slotting Vigor.

You notice how his entire bar is comprised of mainly sorc class skills? He didn’t go full hybrid, yet he’s performing better than a typical magsorc build.

Idk man, your suggestions for buffing shields are pretty ridiculous. I just don’t think shield needs to be buffed. The class is fine as it is and only needs some passive reworks.

StaticWave

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

StaticWave

Actually, I’m pretty much done here lol. Just go ahead and buff magsorc with everyone’s suggestions. The class will become OP and get nerfed the following patch.

jaws343

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

jaws343

And really, let's look at the differences between shields then vs now.

Then:
- Scaled only on max mag and battlespirit
- Did not take critical damage from other players
- Shield stacking meant 40-50K worth of shields

Now:
- Scales on max mag, max health, and battlespirit, all combined
- Shields take critical damage
- Shields get benefit from armor amounts, but also take penetration
- At best, you are stacking 20K worth of shields. More likely in the 16K range.

So no, I don't actually think my suggestions, giving a player a single 20K shield that DOES NOT stack with other shields (and still takes crit damage and still will only last like 2-3 seconds under pressure) is going to somehow compare to the shields of old.

The fact that a sorc even has to rely on stacking shields to make their primary defensive tool workable is absurd.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

What do you mean deal 3 different scaling mechanics? It’s either scaling off max HP OR max mag, like Living Dark. You can either stack 40k HP for a 10k shield or 40k mag for a 10k shield. You don’t need to have 40k HP and 40k mag to get a 10k shield.

Why not just nerf the current overperforming aspects of the game like crit damage/crit healing instead of trying to buff shields? It’s a far simpler solution than buffing something that can potentially create broken builds.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

What do you mean they don’t have the damage? @MetallicMonk is hitting 10-11k frags…

I’m sorry but Templar is so bad this patch one has to purposely try to lose when fighting one. You should never ever lose to a Templar this patch.

Sorc is a high damage ranged nuker. There is no place for a sorc to facetank and brawl. That’s a bad game design by its core. A DK or a Plar has to get in melee range to brawl, and even if they play a ranged build, they still don’t have the same mobility as a sorc. Not even buffed Mist Form can compare to Streak in terms of mobility.