I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

Turtle_Bot

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

VixxVexx wrote: »

We're comparing the other morph. Hardened Ward is stronger for sure. I'm arguing that the second morph is lackluster.
It's also easier to get 40k health than it is to get 40k mag.

Regenerative Ward is also almost 2x larger than Hardened Armor (55/2% vs 32/2%), plus it has a group sustain buff. You use Regenerative Ward because you want the group buff, not because you need the shield.

Edit: The 10 second duration of Regenerative Ward also has value you don't get with other shields, but it's harder to quantify.

The question is this though: Is minor intellect/endurance + additional 4 seconds equal to major resolve (for double the duration) + a unique mechanic in damage return + no cap + 35% reduced cost?

Not having a cap on the shield is also hard to quantify and a significantly reduced cost (on a class that is supposed to struggle with sustain) scales much better than it does on a class that is supposed to sustain just fine.

the1andonlyskwex

VixxVexx wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

VixxVexx wrote: »

We're comparing the other morph. Hardened Ward is stronger for sure. I'm arguing that the second morph is lackluster.
It's also easier to get 40k health than it is to get 40k mag.

Regenerative Ward is also almost 2x larger than Hardened Armor (55/2% vs 32/2%), plus it has a group sustain buff. You use Regenerative Ward because you want the group buff, not because you need the shield.

Edit: The 10 second duration of Regenerative Ward also has value you don't get with other shields, but it's harder to quantify.

Sir that's the Max Health cap not the scaling. Scaling for Regen Ward is 34%.

My whole point is that on a magicka build Regenerative Ward is way stronger than Hardened Armor and only comparing max health builds is misleading at best.

Regardless, Regenerative Ward is a PvE healer skill. If you want to PvP, use Hardened Ward.

VixxVexx

But it's not though.

Average DK build has at least 36k health, giving him a 5.8-6.0k shield.
Average Magsorc build has 40k max mag with 30k health, giving him a 6.0-6.2k shield (before bastion)

I'm arguing that the difference is too small for a dedicated shield skill vs an armor buff skill.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

I remember the days when shields would hold off entire groups and sorc could pretty much possibly two tap you if you weren't paying correctly.

Sorcs including myself can still get kills but it's far from the dominating spec it once was.

I remember that iteration of sorc very well. Watching SypherPK tanking 5-6 people made me pick sorc as my first PvP class lol.

I have no doubts that if that version of sorc returned, the class would dominate once again.

No it won’t. We don’t have that caliber of player on PC NA anymore.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

I remember the days when shields would hold off entire groups and sorc could pretty much possibly two tap you if you weren't paying correctly.

Sorcs including myself can still get kills but it's far from the dominating spec it once was.

I remember that iteration of sorc very well. Watching SypherPK tanking 5-6 people made me pick sorc as my first PvP class lol.

I have no doubts that if that version of sorc returned, the class would dominate once again.

No it won’t. We don’t have that caliber of player on PC NA anymore.

There are still a few top tier magsorc mains who are on the caliber of SypherPK during his prime.

Pelanora

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

If everyone's special, noone is.

Id settle for useful.



Id really like wings tho.

Flying sorcerers? Idk my immersion does not agree

Not flying. Unless we could turn into something and fly as sorcs can. But a whole new animation and skill for sorc wld break zos mind I'm sure, straight path to insanity for the 'you will never be improved' dev team. And anyway, nothing will ever fly in eso, I'm sure. That wld be way too fun.

But wings just there like templar and dk, transparent lightning wings. Maybe with streak?

Idk i just want something COOL. What is sorc ever going to get new that's just cool.

Poss

Fugus wrote: »

Still leveling so can't say much about endgame or pvp but my biggest gripe so far with my sorcerer has to be the short duration on the bubble. Six seconds on a bubble that can get popped pretty easy.

I’m probably the only one who laughed at “bubble”. No idea why I found that funny

But shield stacking was an issue back in the day, sorcs made great scroll runners as their beefy shields and easy access to major expedition made them hard to take down. Everyone was complaining about sorcs but instead of nerfing then slightly to make it fairer, they decided to absolutely run the class into the ground. Thanks ZoS.

Now they just simply aren’t viable in pvp. Idk what OP has against sorcs, us sorc mains aren’t asking for a return to 2015-2016 when they were incredibly strong. All we want is a little bit more survivability

Fugus

branstark wrote: »

I’m probably the only one who laughed at “bubble”. No idea why I found that funny

But shield stacking was an issue back in the day, sorcs made great scroll runners as their beefy shields and easy access to major expedition made them hard to take down. Everyone was complaining about sorcs but instead of nerfing then slightly to make it fairer, they decided to absolutely run the class into the ground. Thanks ZoS.

Now they just simply aren’t viable in pvp. Idk what OP has against sorcs, us sorc mains aren’t asking for a return to 2015-2016 when they were incredibly strong. All we want is a little bit more survivability

I can definitely attest to how quickly we can be killed. I have done the Random BG and got death match games. I could bubble and jump off the ledge to enter the area and literally have my bubble popped and be dead before I hit the ground or right as I landed.

I know my gears and skills were/are crap, but that is beyond stupid.

Interesting fact, I have maxed all my sorcerer skills and their morphs so working down the line to level up the rest. When I got to the 2-handed tree, I felt like I was robbed on my sorcerer, it was way easier and even has it's own 6 second bubble that its auto-applied/refreshed as part of one of the spammed frontal cone attacks. Was literally able to do many world bosses just be trading blows with them, with little kiting unless they had a 1 hit kill attack and if I had trouble I would switch to my resto-staff back bar, throw up some hots and the healing debuff on the boss and switch back. Can imagine a Dragonknight using his skills along with the 2-handed skills to go with them as I know the base skills for the DragonKnight has a spammable heal there to go with the 2-handed tree.

StaticWave

branstark wrote: »

Fugus wrote: »

Still leveling so can't say much about endgame or pvp but my biggest gripe so far with my sorcerer has to be the short duration on the bubble. Six seconds on a bubble that can get popped pretty easy.

I’m probably the only one who laughed at “bubble”. No idea why I found that funny

But shield stacking was an issue back in the day, sorcs made great scroll runners as their beefy shields and easy access to major expedition made them hard to take down. Everyone was complaining about sorcs but instead of nerfing then slightly to make it fairer, they decided to absolutely run the class into the ground. Thanks ZoS.

Now they just simply aren’t viable in pvp. Idk what OP has against sorcs, us sorc mains aren’t asking for a return to 2015-2016 when they were incredibly strong. All we want is a little bit more survivability

OP is one of the best magsorcs on PC NA. It would be weird for him to be against sorcs since well, he mains the class.

He's simply against over-buffing the class because he's playing it at the highest level and realized that the class is still good when changes are made to adapt to the current meta.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

branstark wrote: »

Fugus wrote: »

Still leveling so can't say much about endgame or pvp but my biggest gripe so far with my sorcerer has to be the short duration on the bubble. Six seconds on a bubble that can get popped pretty easy.

I’m probably the only one who laughed at “bubble”. No idea why I found that funny

But shield stacking was an issue back in the day, sorcs made great scroll runners as their beefy shields and easy access to major expedition made them hard to take down. Everyone was complaining about sorcs but instead of nerfing then slightly to make it fairer, they decided to absolutely run the class into the ground. Thanks ZoS.

Now they just simply aren’t viable in pvp. Idk what OP has against sorcs, us sorc mains aren’t asking for a return to 2015-2016 when they were incredibly strong. All we want is a little bit more survivability

OP is one of the best magsorcs on PC NA. It would be weird for him to be against sorcs since well, he mains the class.

He's simply against over-buffing the class because he's playing it at the highest level and realized that the class is still good when changes are made to adapt to the current meta.

Even the best players can only make a below par class look average

Gameplay even from the best players out there falls short by quite a bit compared to other classes

The main reason is there is nothing sorc can do which other classes can’t do better

KilianDermoth

Sure there are 3 things a Sorc can do better than other classes!

1. Pets, for example haveing up to 6-8 pets out at the same time time + buff them by 45%. - The only true pet class, maybe we should just rename sorcerer to summoner? But even then the class isnt that great and I would expect from a summoner to do better and be more fun to play than the Sorc as a summoner is...

2. Lightning staff heavy attack builds where you have to permanently hold down a single button without doing anything else and still reaching minimum 80k+ damage (with the correct builds) or even more if you do occasionally weave in some skills inbetween the heavy attacks.

3. Streak, but this will be gone with the vampire rework.

And nothing of that is outstanding or even reaches, what is possible by other means. There are better escape, movement tools and gap closers (raw speed, literally any gap closer, nightblade ghost, invisibility), also running away doesnt win any fight. There are better ways to deal damage than utilizing pets. You can be strong without a heavy attack lightning staff build (even you have to put 1000x the effort to do so). And all of that except Streak is bad in PvP and even streak isnt that powerful as people often whine about, because it has hard counters...

Yeah, thats pretty much about the class, classes cant have all and be good at all but some classes can have more than others and be good at almost anything, the Sorc just doesnt belong to this exclusive group of classes, so people should be lucky that the class is just the worst of all classes and not good at anything. Still at least its not completely unplayable (just bad), this is something, isnt it? ...

ForumBully

The OPs comment wasn't exactly in depth, so I'm not sure how much can be read into it...but, if the comment stands as is, the OP and many other sorcs are making a point, IMO, that magsorc right now is NOT dead. It's perfectly viable and even performing rather well compared to say, Templar or soon-to-be Necromancer.
I agree and still play my magsorc all the time and will do so next patch, which will make Sorc slightly stronger. It's not the "buff" I would have hoped for, but it will be a slight improvement.
All that being said, there are some pain points that Sorc could have used (bad passives, lack of Major buff access, weak and forgotten max stats playstyle) more than DK needed Major Berserk.

KilianDermoth

Compared to templar? Which easily outperform Sorcs at range? One of Sorcs biggest strengths...
Templar who can survive better than Sorcs?

Erm yeah, sure, whatever...

ForumBully

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Compared to templar? Which easily outperform Sorcs at range? One of Sorcs biggest strengths...
Templar who can survive better than Sorcs?

Erm yeah, sure, whatever...

Outperforms at range meaning "spam radiant"? Templar has a whole line devoted to healing...so yeah, they should outheal sorcs

KilianDermoth

I wasnt talking about healing.

But yeah templars get that on top. too. So Sorcs shouldnt be able to heal because they dont have a heal skill line.

They dont really do reliable damage, often out of class skills have to be used for reliable damage, something any class can do btw. - often even better than the Sorcs.

Also they dont even have a dedicated damage skill line nor a dedicated tank skill line. Its all scatterd around and some of the skills are barely used / useful, clunky, unreliable or are very very very situational...

What are they supposed to be? Tanks? Which is possible on any class btw. and on some even easier / better than on a Sorc (DK for example)...

But yeah, for tanking Sorcs are quite useful in my opinion they are even better than templars, but for the rest...

ForumBully

KilianDermoth wrote: »

I wasnt talking about healing.

But yeah templars get that on top. too. So Sorcs shouldnt be able to heal because they dont have a heal skill line.

They dont really do reliable damage, often out of class skills have to be used for reliable damage, something any class can do btw. - often even better than the Sorcs.

Also they dont even have a dedicated damage skill line nor a dedicated tank skill line. Its all scatterd around and some of the skills are barely used / useful at all or are very very very situational...

What are they supposed to be? Tanks? Which is possible on any class btw. and on some even easier / better than on a Sorc (DK for example)...

But yeah for tanking Sorcs are quite useful in my opinion they are even better than templars, but for the rest...

Well...if you think Templars are in a better spot than Sorc I don't think we'll find much common ground. All the best.

Poss

StaticWave wrote: »

OP is one of the best magsorcs on PC NA. It would be weird for him to be against sorcs since well, he mains the class.

He's simply against over-buffing the class because he's playing it at the highest level and realized that the class is still good when changes are made to adapt to the current meta.

Ohhh, I’m Xbox EU so didn’t know this. But yes I agree, nobody wants the sorc to go back to how it was in 2015/16, even sorc mains. Just a little help with survivability

Caribou77

I think op’s suggestion has merit, but it’s not how zos does business, and is unlikely to happen.

Adding Major Breach to Haunting Curse would help bring Magsorc up, without causing perceivable imbalance issues, imo.

Maybe PvP Magsorcs could agree to get behind 1 or 2 changes, and stay focused on them?

1) Effective pvp heal
2) Major Breach on HC

Poss

Caribou77 wrote: »

1) Effective pvp heal
2) Major Breach on HC

I’d be happy with that.

StaticWave

Caribou77 wrote: »

I think op’s suggestion has merit, but it’s not how zos does business, and is unlikely to happen.

Adding Major Breach to Haunting Curse would help bring Magsorc up, without causing perceivable imbalance issues, imo.

Maybe PvP Magsorcs could agree to get behind 1 or 2 changes, and stay focused on them?

1) Effective pvp heal
2) Major Breach on HC

I’m against adding Major Breach on any of the offensive class skills because Sorc damage is already in a very good spot. That would open up doors for potential builds that have extreme pressure.

I’m in favor of buffing healing for sorcs to open up the healing path. Shielding has been the only path for 6+ years. It’s time sorcs try another defensive path for a change.

Caribou77

Can you send me your build, Static?

Damage on my Magsorc is mediocre. I BG a lot, and get many assists, but few kills. Granted, I'm not a Mages Wrath spamming/kill thief, and I like to use streak to stay in the action rather than sit back at range. So maybe it's just my stupid playing preference.

To be clear: I don't doubt that your damage is good, S. I just don't know how you're getting it, while maintaining enough defense to avoid getting squashed by DKs & Assassin's Will.

If you share your build, I won't tell anyone else what it is.

Poss

I also have no idea how people are getting good damage on a sorc. I use buffer of the Swift at the expense of another offensive set as I feel like it’s necessary but my damage is terrible

Turtle_Bot

Caribou77 wrote: »

I think op’s suggestion has merit, but it’s not how zos does business, and is unlikely to happen.

Adding Major Breach to Haunting Curse would help bring Magsorc up, without causing perceivable imbalance issues, imo.

Maybe PvP Magsorcs could agree to get behind 1 or 2 changes, and stay focused on them?

1) Effective pvp heal
2) Major Breach on HC

Effective PvP heal is a must nowadays, so definitely agree there.

As for breach, I can see why this is a common request, especially if ZOS decides to nerf ele sus in the future, but for now, I'd be happy with in class access to major prophecy/savagery to help better tie in the class HoT, crit surge.

The main benefit is that it would give sorc a build option to work with (crit) that meshes well with the current combat designs/systems while retaining some good, easy counterplay in crit resistance, which means it won't ever become too broken because players can slot readily available stuff like rallying cry or reslience CP, or whatever new set zos brings out that mitigates crit damage and they will have the added benefit of also naturally tanking up against NBs too.

Another added benefit would be helping sorc healers since they can proc the other morph of crit surge much more frequently to passively buff their healing without having to resort to inner light/camo hunter and freeing up a slot for them to run another heal or buff/debuff.

OBJnoob

@Turtle_Bot I've always been a "give them breach and a burst heal," guy, but I have to say your last post makes a lot of sense.

So in-class access to major savagery/prophecy AND fix up one of their burst heals. Could these be the two things we all agree to compromise and be united in? @StaticWave ? @Caribou77 ?

Caribou77

@OBJnoob & @Turtle_Bot Yes, this makes sense to me and I can support this.

I still kinda want major breach on haunting curse though, because the animation/cast time on elemental susceptibility is weirdly mushy and slow, and seems to take a couple of seconds that I don't really have to spare on Magsorc.

I'm not very good on Magsorc, so I'm a bit greedy.

Caribou77

... ALSO, bar space on Magsorc is brutal, so major breach on a high utility spell would be much appreciated there.

ForumBully

Just...please don't try to incentivize a lightning staff...I hate the channel staves with all my heart.

Caribou77

^^ Hahhaha! This totally something they would do!

allan0n

Dude I'd settle for just giving Crit Surge major savagery at this point. I've given up on ever getting a burst heal half as good as healthy offering or render flesh that isnt tied to a stupid pet that needs to be double barred. Throw us something besides ward buffs, please, for christ.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot I've always been a "give them breach and a burst heal," guy, but I have to say your last post makes a lot of sense.

So in-class access to major savagery/prophecy AND fix up one of their burst heals. Could these be the two things we all agree to compromise and be united in? @StaticWave ? @Caribou77 ?

There's still the issue of outdated/non-synergistic passives, but if we got those 2 things (major prophecy/savagery and a proper self burst heal for pvp not tied to pets or cast time) I could live with the current state of passives for a while longer