PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

TechMaybeHic

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you're truly dead set on giving DKs a massive damage boost with Major Berserk (which again, you absolutely should not be doing) then at minimum, Chains needs the same escalating cost treatment as Streak and the new Mist Form.
Frankly, all the gap closers need this, but at minimum something giving a massive damage buff should.

That doesn't make any sense. The buff lasts 10 seconds. Recourse are what? 4 or 5? Pointless

acastanza_ESO

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

If you're truly dead set on giving DKs a massive damage boost with Major Berserk (which again, you absolutely should not be doing) then at minimum, Chains needs the same escalating cost treatment as Streak and the new Mist Form.
Frankly, all the gap closers need this, but at minimum something giving a massive damage buff should.

That doesn't make any sense. The buff lasts 10 seconds. Recourse are what? 4 or 5? Pointless

They said earlier that they were looking into shortening the duration of the buff, this was in response (and in addition) to that.

proteinexe

RevJJ wrote: »

Genuine question. If NBs are so OP in pvp (according to many comments in this thread), why do they appear to be one of the least played classes? On GH PCNA the vast majority is a DK to the point where “kill 20 dragon knights” is almost the same objective as “kill 40 players”. In my experience NBs are probably in the bottom 10% together with necros. But perhaps that is only my experience.

I’d say there are a good amount of nightblades (PC EU), but I do see your point. They’re currently duelling kings and they can 1vX purely by bursting people rather than chipping them away like a DK. However, nightblade has a higher skill cap than DK’s and the very strong nightblade setup currently is that without cloak. The majority of people when they think/play nightblade go for cloak, whereas the meta/bis setup is a brawler blade which isn't everyone’s cup of tea. DK’s however, you can play pretty much any style with smashing buttons and do accidental damage and kill someone.. oh did I mention their immense healing at the push of a button? And the same goes for warden but you use a cookie cutter build and you survive while doing damage.

Turtle_Bot

RevJJ wrote: »

Genuine question. If NBs are so OP in pvp (according to many comments in this thread), why do they appear to be one of the least played classes? On GH PCNA the vast majority is a DK to the point where “kill 20 dragon knights” is almost the same objective as “kill 40 players”. In my experience NBs are probably in the bottom 10% together with necros. But perhaps that is only my experience.

Agree with proteinexe, NB has a higher skill cap than DK and is slightly easier to punish by players who know what they are doing against the class so many players opt for DK over NB since both are 2 of the 3 top classes right now.

In saying that, there have been quite a few zergs of just NBs (or 10+ NBs and a few DK baits) on PCEU over the past few months, so they are definitely around, most likely just hiding in invis/stealth waiting for you to get low while fighting someone else before they all jump out and gank you at the same time.

Aces-High-82

Magsorc

1. Major Breach not accessible via class kit. Curse providing it would help tremendously as it would free up a valuable barslot.
2. Accessible self targeted burst heal via class kit. Reworked Empowered Ward (scaling with weapon/spell damage) would be a good option for shieldless magsorcs.
3. Crystal fragment travel time is really slow.

Melzo

Werewolves. I have a suggestion for changing them.

1) change the werewolf model. They look like a skinny monkey.
2) Give rage points in the form of a werewolf for the place of ultimate points, and activating certain buttons will activate the werewolf's ultimate. For example, sprint and heavy attack.
3) Don't listen to werewolf lovers who require general buffs. They are talking nonsense. Better do the points above.

ForumBully

Melzo wrote: »

Werewolves. I have a suggestion for changing them.

1) change the werewolf model. They look like a skinny monkey.
2) Give rage points in the form of a werewolf for the place of ultimate points, and activating certain buttons will activate the werewolf's ultimate. For example, sprint and heavy attack.
3) Don't listen to werewolf lovers who require general buffs. They are talking nonsense. Better do the points above.

I do like the idea of an "ultimate" I'm WW form. The old "transformation IS an ultimate" doesn't really hold when that transformation is clearly lacking power.

KingLewie_III

POV of a 3000 hour Necro Main

The rework of Harmony eliminates the only viable playstyle of Necromancer in recent memory. The real problem is DC and RoA. Before these sets were introduced, Necro was a niche class with a devastating burst that a lot of people couldn’t/didn’t play. The playstyle was based on relying on the good healing of the class and kiting a group into a choke point and bursting them with the DB, Blastbones, Graverobber combo. All of which can be blocked and/or mitigated by Major Evasion.
If the change to Harmony is inevitable, Necromancer needs a rework. Without the graverobber burst, this class isn’t killing anything in PVP. It’s healing was brought down significantly with the aggressive nerf to Intensive Mender, so much that the skill isn’t used anymore. The tether can be broken by LOS or just uneven terrain making it unreliable as a HoT. Resistant Flesh is solid, but if I’m going to give myself minor defile (the only class in the game that debuffs itself) it better be the undeniable best burst heal in the game, but it isn’t.

Empowering Grasp was a nice idea, but a flat 1000 buff isn’t enough. Especially when the skill is expensive, and the buff doesn’t carry over to the next cast of blastbones, meaning if you want to use it you’ve just added 3500 magicka to the cost of each cast of Blastbones and another Global Cooldown. It would need to be closer to a 20% damage increase for the next 10 seconds on BB to warrant a skill spot. This skill has potential to fill multiple holes in the Necro toolkit If done correctly.
Class has two options for spammables, neither of them hit hard enough to warrant a skill slot. Ruinous scythe does the same amount of damage as Whirling Blades but has no execute scaling. It does proc off-balance but doesn’t do enough damage to punish anyone for the stun. Tool tip on this should be somewhere between Whirling Blades and Dizzy Swing. The skulls in my opinion need to be dissolved completely and have something else take their place (Maybe a curse that applies a DoT and some Major Debuff). They just travel too slowly, and don’t do enough damage. This isn’t even used in PVE since Silver shards outperforms it on every level.

My final concern is the cost of class ultimates. Colossus 225, Goliath 250, Reanimate 320. It’s absurd to me that things like Leap, Incap, Dawnbreaker, and Crescent can be casted 2 or 3 times before a necromancer can use 1 of it’s class ultimates. And if we’re to assume the cost is based on power level, does anyone actually believe Colossus or Goliath is more oppressive than Corrosive Armor? Or even leap for that matter? Adding in the pathing issues with Blast bones makes Animate Blastbones a non-factor entirely.

Just give us something.

Thecompton73

RevJJ wrote: »

Genuine question. If NBs are so OP in pvp (according to many comments in this thread), why do they appear to be one of the least played classes? On GH PCNA the vast majority is a DK to the point where “kill 20 dragon knights” is almost the same objective as “kill 40 players”. In my experience NBs are probably in the bottom 10% together with necros. But perhaps that is only my experience.

The distribution of what classes are being played actually depends quite a bit on what faction you're playing. The majority of players start without the any race/any faction upgrade so they wind up in the faction that has the best racial choices for the class they want to play.
EP and DC have a ton of DK's because it's a strong class and the races in those factions work well for them. AD on the other hand includes Bosmer and Khajiit which are the two most common "Nb" choices, so you'll see a disproportionate amount of NB's on the faction.
Also remember for every enemy NB you can see there are probably 5 more in stealth nearby.

xthrshx

KingLewie_III wrote: »

My final concern is the cost of class ultimates. Colossus 225, Goliath 250, Reanimate 320. It’s absurd to me that things like Leap, Incap, Dawnbreaker, and Crescent can be casted 2 or 3 times before a necromancer can use 1 of it’s class ultimates. And if we’re to assume the cost is based on power level, does anyone actually believe Colossus or Goliath is more oppressive than Corrosive Armor? Or even leap for that matter?

This is an issue caused by balancing PVE and PVP together. Colossus makes sense as an expensive ultimate because it has massive group utility in PVE. Cutting the cost in half, with Necro’s enormous ulti gen, would be a pretty significant class imbalance. (I mean, Turning Tide is also a thing, but that’s a separate issue.)

They need to either have the obligatory “PVP morph” of each ultimate or balance their effects/damage separately in order to really solve this issue.

katorga

xthrshx wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

My final concern is the cost of class ultimates. Colossus 225, Goliath 250, Reanimate 320. It’s absurd to me that things like Leap, Incap, Dawnbreaker, and Crescent can be casted 2 or 3 times before a necromancer can use 1 of it’s class ultimates. And if we’re to assume the cost is based on power level, does anyone actually believe Colossus or Goliath is more oppressive than Corrosive Armor? Or even leap for that matter?

This is an issue caused by balancing PVE and PVP together. Colossus makes sense as an expensive ultimate because it has massive group utility in PVE. Cutting the cost in half, with Necro’s enormous ulti gen, would be a pretty significant class imbalance. (I mean, Turning Tide is also a thing, but that’s a separate issue.)

They need to either have the obligatory “PVP morph” of each ultimate or balance their effects/damage separately in order to really solve this issue.

Colossus doesn't matter any more.

KingLewie_III

It may seem like a separate issue, but with the addition of sets like Turning Tide and Archdruid Devyric, Major Vulnerability is no longer uniquely gained by having a Necromancer in your group in a PVE instance. Compile that with that fact that the Colossus Ultimate has about a 10% success rate in PVP without the aid of DC or RoA, and you’re left with an expensive class ultimate that’s redundant and unreliable.

Caribou77

My theory on the seemingly implausible buffs to DK:

The stated purpose of U35 was to make the game more accessible for “casual” players. Based on considerable feedback from these players, that goal was not achieved by nerfing dots, light attacks, and a bunch of other stuff.

Overbuffing DK is another means to the goal of making the game “accessible to casual players.” Find pvp challenging? Hop on a DK, now it’s far more accessible.

This would be fine, except for the hordes of non-casual pvp-rs who are quite happy to exploit DKs huge advantage ad infinitum. Not everyone enjoys good competition. ☺️

TechMaybeHic

Caribou77 wrote: »

My theory on the seemingly implausible buffs to DK:

The stated purpose of U35 was to make the game more accessible for “casual” players. Based on considerable feedback from these players, that goal was not achieved by nerfing dots, light attacks, and a bunch of other stuff.

Overbuffing DK is another means to the goal of making the game “accessible to casual players.” Find pvp challenging? Hop on a DK, now it’s far more accessible.

This would be fine, except for the hordes of non-casual pvp-rs who are quite happy to exploit DKs huge advantage ad infinitum. Not everyone enjoys good competition. ☺️

Not sure if that was the move when they reduced Templar sweeps to be more weavable which is not what casual players generally do, and they often went plar to just spam it, get damage and a heal. Not very effective against good players, but enough to feel good against other casuals or while in a Zerg

Tannus15

xthrshx wrote: »

shinry wrote: »

The common trend coupled with poor Templar performance is block cast (main abilities are channels where you can't block) or die situations and those with long-range side adds.

These situations are frequent in trial fights. [/b]

This is one of the best posts I’ve ever seen on here. Thank you for putting so much time into this.

I just want to echo this point because I don’t see it brought up as frequently as other issues with the class. But the block-cast-or-die fear is real on plar. I was having a heart attack the entire last boss of my Godslayer run on magplar because I didn’t want to be the guy who gets caught in a jab and can’t block a head swipe in time, and I was terrified through exe, casting Jesus beam knowing I could get myself one-shot with the smallest mistake. It’s a true weakness built into the Templar class. Like you said, it won’t show up in a spreadsheet or dummy parse, but it has a tangible effect on class performance in content.

Thanks again for your amazing post on the state of Templar. I’m holding out some small amount of hope that the class will be decent again.

this is the same problem for sorc with frags as spammable. cast time spammables suck. obviously it's not as problematic as beam, but it's still an issue.
the highest dps setups for sorcs use frags as spammable because it gives you an extra skill slot.

LonePirate

I think the complaints about the DK chains buff in PVP is a bit overblown given how infrequently the skill actually works. The skill fails at least 50% of the time for me in Cyrodiil. It certainly fails far more often than sets or effects that draw a player to another location. Its reach isn’t even that great. There are far greater imbalance issues to address in PVP.

ForumBully

LonePirate wrote: »

I think the complaints about the DK chains buff in PVP is a bit overblown given how infrequently the skill actually works. The skill fails at least 50% of the time for me in Cyrodiil. It certainly fails far more often than sets or effects that draw a player to another location. Its reach isn’t even that great. There are far greater imbalance issues to address in PVP.

I don't think there's a problem with buffing an unpopular skill, or even the a problem with the buff theyve chosen, but of all the classes with underwhelming skills why buff the one that is doing great right now?

propertyOfUndefined

I don't think we're talking about the chains that pull enemies here, but the chains that act as a charge.

Empowering Chains: "Launch a fiery chain to grasp and pull you to an enemy, dealing 1438 Flame Damage and granting you Empower for 10 seconds, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%. Hitting the target grants you Major Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds. This attack cannot be dodged or reflected."

ForumBully

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I don't think we're talking about the chains that pull enemies here, but the chains that act as a charge.

"Launch a fiery chain to grasp and pull you to an enemy, dealing 1438 Flame Damage and granting you Empower for 10 seconds, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%. Hitting the target grants you Major Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds. This attack cannot be dodged or reflected."

Yeah...adding a Major damage buff makes that skill worth a slot, maybe. Otherwise most in PvP don't use it it seems.
It's a good buff to an otherwise lackluster...and honestly a little buggy, skill.
Buffing underused skills is great. All classes have some, and I think there are much squeakier wheels that could use that grease.

katorga

ForumBully wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I don't think we're talking about the chains that pull enemies here, but the chains that act as a charge.

"Launch a fiery chain to grasp and pull you to an enemy, dealing 1438 Flame Damage and granting you Empower for 10 seconds, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%. Hitting the target grants you Major Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds. This attack cannot be dodged or reflected."

Yeah...adding a Major damage buff makes that skill worth a slot, maybe. Otherwise most in PvP don't use it it seems.
It's a good buff to an otherwise lackluster...and honestly a little buggy, skill.
Buffing underused skills is great. All classes have some, and I think there are much squeakier wheels that could use that grease.

I think the point is that Major Berserk on a class gap closer is way out of balance with secondary effects on other classes' skills.

If the benefit is high enough players will use the skill as a spammable, similar to using 2H backbar for stampede as a melee dps spammable.

ForumBully

katorga wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I don't think we're talking about the chains that pull enemies here, but the chains that act as a charge.

"Launch a fiery chain to grasp and pull you to an enemy, dealing 1438 Flame Damage and granting you Empower for 10 seconds, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%. Hitting the target grants you Major Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds. This attack cannot be dodged or reflected."

Yeah...adding a Major damage buff makes that skill worth a slot, maybe. Otherwise most in PvP don't use it it seems.
It's a good buff to an otherwise lackluster...and honestly a little buggy, skill.
Buffing underused skills is great. All classes have some, and I think there are much squeakier wheels that could use that grease.

I think the point is that Major Berserk on a class gap closer is way out of balance with secondary effects on other classes' skills.

If the benefit is high enough players will use the skill as a spammable, similar to using 2H backbar for stampede as a melee dps spammable.

DKs spamming chains in PvP would surprise me...but I guess it's possible

gariondavey

If you spam stampede you are gonna run out of juice fast unless you have way too much sustain

TechMaybeHic

I feel like the Mara's Balm nerf kind of misses the mark. Maybe it helps a little, but I think it would have not needed that reduced if the set did not proc on the refreshing of status effects, and the full purge with a burst heal every 15 second cool down at least got the same 30 seconds that is required on a set that only does the full purge. Something with that, as a full purge fully exceeds any ability just on its own.

Rex-Umbra

PvP will be more stale than usual with every one playing DK. Ill check back in June see if it looks better.

TechMaybeHic

I liked your snake in the stars change at first, then I realized that it will proc off heals from other abilities like puncturing weeps (spelling error left intentionally), and bloodthirst which hit rapidly

Billium813

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I feel like the Mara's Balm nerf kind of misses the mark. Maybe it helps a little, but I think it would have not needed that reduced if the set did not proc on the refreshing of status effects, and the full purge with a burst heal every 15 second cool down at least got the same 30 seconds that is required on a set that only does the full purge. Something with that, as a full purge fully exceeds any ability just on its own.

This ^

I think the Mara's Balm change is a bandage for the more serious issue of a set procing off debuffs when they are not falling off or being removed, but rather just refreshing. I would like ZOS to confirm if this is an intended behavior because there are very few procs in the game that care about debuffs falling off (like NB Concealed Weapon), and they ALL look broken because of this simple interaction with how the game handles applying/removing debuffs. Changing the heals doesn't fix the underlying issue

katorga

gariondavey wrote: »

If you spam stampede you are gonna run out of juice fast unless you have way too much sustain

spam was wrong word, thining back bar dot as part of rotation. My bad.

Either way, berserk nerfed to 4s. Helping hands nerf.

No NB nerfs at all. 'natch.

Billium813

• Earthen Heart
  • Helping Hands:
    • This passive now requires the ability cost of what triggered it to be greater than the restored amount of Stamina, to prevent situations where you could gain more Stamina than you had spent as Magicka.
      Rank 1 of the ability now shares the same value as Rank 2, but has a cooldown of 2 seconds rather than once every cast.
      Increased the restored amount of Stamina to 1120, up from 990.
      Developer Comment:
      There are currently a myriad of ways to use this passive in unintended ways, allowing for situations where you can essentially get infinite Stamina. Many have cleverly paired cost reduction with Ash Cloud when we changed the ability to cost per tick, and while we appreciated this clever interaction, it's ultimately invalidating the need of Stamina resource management for the class in the tank role. We're adjusting this passive to only work when you've spent more resources than it can generate, and we're slightly bumping up the Stamina restore so this doesn't create a situation of an overall nerf.

> and we're slightly bumping up the Stamina restore so this doesn't create a situation of an overall nerf

That made me chuckle a bit. Why would this change be considered a nerf? It was an unintended interaction and generated infinite stamina. Why can't DK get a nerf?

gariondavey

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
Can either of you confirm if templar is getting some buffs and attention this patch cycle?

The fact that week 3 notes are out and there isn't anything on the matter is frankly...concerning.

Templars have been relegated to beam bots. Please restore some of our offensive strength to jabs and backlash. Beam can be decreased to compensate.

The IMMENSE negative response around the changes to jabs, burning light, and backlash has hopefully reached your ears. Please. Do something.

Tag me if you respond, please.

seventyfive

Billium813 wrote: »

• Earthen Heart
  • Helping Hands:
    • This passive now requires the ability cost of what triggered it to be greater than the restored amount of Stamina, to prevent situations where you could gain more Stamina than you had spent as Magicka.
      Rank 1 of the ability now shares the same value as Rank 2, but has a cooldown of 2 seconds rather than once every cast.
      Increased the restored amount of Stamina to 1120, up from 990.
      Developer Comment:
      There are currently a myriad of ways to use this passive in unintended ways, allowing for situations where you can essentially get infinite Stamina. Many have cleverly paired cost reduction with Ash Cloud when we changed the ability to cost per tick, and while we appreciated this clever interaction, it's ultimately invalidating the need of Stamina resource management for the class in the tank role. We're adjusting this passive to only work when you've spent more resources than it can generate, and we're slightly bumping up the Stamina restore so this doesn't create a situation of an overall nerf.

> and we're slightly bumping up the Stamina restore so this doesn't create a situation of an overall nerf

That made me chuckle a bit. Why would this change be considered a nerf? It was an unintended interaction and generated infinite stamina. Why can't DK get a nerf?

Of course everyone knows it's a nerf, it's just being diplomatic with the language. Of course the devs have known about this (despite official comments on it), they're normally intelligent people. I am guessing they've been okay with it or prioritized something else. The small pat on the back (the extra 130 stamina) isn't unusual for patch notes.

I think it's a good change. Using it hasn't been as overpowered as non-dks seem to think though, as time is money and every GCD recasting it prematurely is wasted outside of the stamina restore. There are also other ways to convert CGD's to resources, like the psijic skill.

With that being said, it's been too good (just not that op) and has been limiting in build-making. I realised a few months ago that I simply don't find joy in recasting the ability and stopped using it. Glad to know I am no longer sacrificing min-maxing for enjoyment.