Class Change Tokens - Request Number 73,276

vsrs_au

cmetzger93 wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Request Number 73,276 for a "No, Thanks".

Leave things as they are now.

How would them implementing a class change negatively impact you?

It's pretty simple: anything they implement means they use up time that could have been spent on implementing something else, or even fixing some long-standing bugs. So yes, implementing something can have a negative impact.

the1andonlyskwex

vsrs_au wrote: »

cmetzger93 wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Request Number 73,276 for a "No, Thanks".

Leave things as they are now.

How would them implementing a class change negatively impact you?

It's pretty simple: anything they implement means they use up time that could have been spent on implementing something else, or even fixing some long-standing bugs. So yes, implementing something can have a negative impact.

More significantly, the existence of a class change token would dramatically increase pressure from guilds and other players to chase the meta, and it would also be likely to negatively affect class balance more generally.

Look at what's happened with races and race change tokens. Ever since race change tokens were introduced, ZOS has been accused of adjusting racial balance just to sell race change tokens. Initially, they responded to this criticism by giving out free race changes (negating any financial benefit of selling the tokens to begin with). More recently, they've just stopped trying to balance the races at all, despite some obvious imbalances. A class change token would have a similar effect, except it would prevent balancing of whole classes, instead of just relatively small racial bonuses.

TDVM

FelisCatus wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

There is no need to add a class change chip, if you want to play a different class, create a new character. The fact that you can't change class is normal for MMOs, there are many MMOs where you can't change classes.

There is a need to add class change tokens for the players who want to make their main a new class. Between all of the skill lines, quests, map locations, character-bound achievement dyes, and mount upgrades, it takes a long time to bring an alt up to par with your main.

The fact that you want to play all classes on one character does not argue for adding a token to change class. Most of the achievements, colors, etc apply to the whole account, and those achievements that are per character they are very easy to get.
This is part of the essence in MMOs, in the pumping of characters if it is not an MMO where there is one character without creating an additional one.

There are no arguments or reasons to add such a token. There are so many more important problems in the game that need to be solved. And the idea of adding such a token is clearly not a priority

Utter nonsense. I have all my alts lvl 50 + every class. I never use them. I only enjoy playing as my main. I have a connection to my character not my alts. I have 5000+ hours in this game and I don't like alts. I like my one character, but I find dragonknight extremely boring. I would happily pay real money to change my class. They need to add it, it's only 3 skill lines. I have done nearly everything on my main. Changing your class makes more sense than changing your race or gender in Elder Scrolls. A class is 3 skill lines it would not be hard. You can lose and gain vampire/werewolf so I don't see why you can't lose and gain 3 other skill lines.

They said they'd never add alliance change tokens, and yet they did. People asked for years for companions and finally we got them. People for years asked for a necromancer class and for spell crafting, at times we were told there were no plans or it wouldn't happen. People asked for the subscription to be optional, people asked for one tamriel. People ask for specific new zones, classes or even nerfs/reworks. It may take time and pressure but eventually you do get somewhere even with compromise. I'm sure ZOS will implement it eventually especially considering a lot of people would pay real money for it. I know because I've read the threads and there are hundreds of posts on these threads and they appear quite often.

You may think it's utter nonsense but it's still not an argument in favor of adding a class change token, it would make more sense to add a guild name change token, that token would be more useful than adding a class change token just because someone doesn't want to pump another character. This will lose the essence of classes and individual characters

The alliance change token was talked about back in 2015.

Players are asking for a lot, and look where that has led to in pvp (take pvp as an example). It leads to not the best results, look at plars and necromancers, especially necromancers, look at the balance, look at the builds that are clearly not in the best condition because now they use the same builds and everyone plays the same because there is no choice, either you follow the current meta against your will or you will just be weak because you have a different build than everyone else. And players who obviously don't understand pvp continue to argue about what needs to be changed in pvp to make it easier for them to play, without thinking about those who have spent a lot of time really understanding the game and its weaknesses. The situation on the opposite side is exactly the same, and there is nowhere to simplify the game


I would suggest to offer really useful innovations, not a token of class change that is necessary for those who do not want to change the character or because just lazy.

In teso already most progress in anything is done on the whole account. Maybe it's time to just relax and play on different characters and not require the game to change to suit yourself? The game will not penalize you for this and the game will let you do it without losing anything. Unless the problem may be in pumping up your mount, but it is clearly not worth it that would add a token to change class, especially if you play often. Especially in the rewards for logging in and in the crown crates fall books for pumping up the mount.

Summary of the message: asking the developers for something is not bad if it helps solve some problem in the game that really exists, but if they add everything that the players are asking for, then it clearly will not affect for the better game.

FelisCatus

TDVM wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

There is no need to add a class change chip, if you want to play a different class, create a new character. The fact that you can't change class is normal for MMOs, there are many MMOs where you can't change classes.

There is a need to add class change tokens for the players who want to make their main a new class. Between all of the skill lines, quests, map locations, character-bound achievement dyes, and mount upgrades, it takes a long time to bring an alt up to par with your main.

The fact that you want to play all classes on one character does not argue for adding a token to change class. Most of the achievements, colors, etc apply to the whole account, and those achievements that are per character they are very easy to get.
This is part of the essence in MMOs, in the pumping of characters if it is not an MMO where there is one character without creating an additional one.

There are no arguments or reasons to add such a token. There are so many more important problems in the game that need to be solved. And the idea of adding such a token is clearly not a priority

Utter nonsense. I have all my alts lvl 50 + every class. I never use them. I only enjoy playing as my main. I have a connection to my character not my alts. I have 5000+ hours in this game and I don't like alts. I like my one character, but I find dragonknight extremely boring. I would happily pay real money to change my class. They need to add it, it's only 3 skill lines. I have done nearly everything on my main. Changing your class makes more sense than changing your race or gender in Elder Scrolls. A class is 3 skill lines it would not be hard. You can lose and gain vampire/werewolf so I don't see why you can't lose and gain 3 other skill lines.

They said they'd never add alliance change tokens, and yet they did. People asked for years for companions and finally we got them. People for years asked for a necromancer class and for spell crafting, at times we were told there were no plans or it wouldn't happen. People asked for the subscription to be optional, people asked for one tamriel. People ask for specific new zones, classes or even nerfs/reworks. It may take time and pressure but eventually you do get somewhere even with compromise. I'm sure ZOS will implement it eventually especially considering a lot of people would pay real money for it. I know because I've read the threads and there are hundreds of posts on these threads and they appear quite often.

You may think it's utter nonsense but it's still not an argument in favor of adding a class change token, it would make more sense to add a guild name change token, that token would be more useful than adding a class change token just because someone doesn't want to pump another character. This will lose the essence of classes and individual characters

The alliance change token was talked about back in 2015.

Players are asking for a lot, and look where that has led to in pvp (take pvp as an example). It leads to not the best results, look at plars and necromancers, especially necromancers, look at the balance, look at the builds that are clearly not in the best condition because now they use the same builds and everyone plays the same because there is no choice, either you follow the current meta against your will or you will just be weak because you have a different build than everyone else. And players who obviously don't understand pvp continue to argue about what needs to be changed in pvp to make it easier for them to play, without thinking about those who have spent a lot of time really understanding the game and its weaknesses. The situation on the opposite side is exactly the same, and there is nowhere to simplify the game


I would suggest to offer really useful innovations, not a token of class change that is necessary for those who do not want to change the character or because just lazy.

In teso already most progress in anything is done on the whole account. Maybe it's time to just relax and play on different characters and not require the game to change to suit yourself? The game will not penalize you for this and the game will let you do it without losing anything. Unless the problem may be in pumping up your mount, but it is clearly not worth it that would add a token to change class, especially if you play often. Especially in the rewards for logging in and in the crown crates fall books for pumping up the mount.

Summary of the message: asking the developers for something is not bad if it helps solve some problem in the game that really exists, but if they add everything that the players are asking for, then it clearly will not affect for the better game.

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

If a class change token was added you would not be forced to use it or buy it. Those that want it can and I don't see why the majority of the player base (which based on these polls and threads about the topic we see constantly are largely in favour of a class change token) should be denied something because a few people say "hur dur roll an alt quit bein' lazy hur dur". You simply don't understand, no matter how many times I have to repeat myself.

Sakiri

I do understand.

However, I also do not feel it's good for the community as a whole to put them in.

And if they ever do, I hope they're more expensive than crown houses, because I, for one, do not want compelled to change class to fit a meta.

fizzylu

FelisCatus wrote: »

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

This is basically how I feel about my main character and trying to explain it to people who are happy having a bunch of characters is pointless, I've learned. But yeah.... I want to do the content on him and build him up, not an alt just because I don't enjoy his class anymore after Zenimax changed it and/or the way combat works.

Sakiri wrote: »

And if they ever do, I hope they're more expensive than crown houses, because I, for one, do not want compelled to change class to fit a meta.

They could easily prevent this kind of behavior by having a limit on how often someone can purchase a class change token. And you could, you know, always just play with people who are there to progress within the game AND have fun without stressing everyone out about tiny percentage differences in DPS/healing.

FelisCatus

fizzylu wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

This is basically how I feel about my main character and trying to explain it to people who are happy having a bunch of characters is pointless, I've learned. But yeah.... I want to do the content on him and build him up, not an alt just because I don't enjoy his class anymore after Zenimax changed it and/or the way combat works.

Sakiri wrote: »

And if they ever do, I hope they're more expensive than crown houses, because I, for one, do not want compelled to change class to fit a meta.

They could easily prevent this kind of behavior by having a limit on how often someone can purchase a class change token. And you could, you know, always just play with people who are there to progress within the game AND have fun without stressing everyone out about tiny percentage differences in DPS/healing.

When ZOS arbitrarily changes how a class fundamentally works (looking at you necromancer, with the mega thread that's been on the top of the forums for weeks now) when no one asked because they "know better" it really drives home the need for a class change token. I reckon it won't belong before they do something to Arcanist.

Sakiri

FelisCatus wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

This is basically how I feel about my main character and trying to explain it to people who are happy having a bunch of characters is pointless, I've learned. But yeah.... I want to do the content on him and build him up, not an alt just because I don't enjoy his class anymore after Zenimax changed it and/or the way combat works.

Sakiri wrote: »

And if they ever do, I hope they're more expensive than crown houses, because I, for one, do not want compelled to change class to fit a meta.

They could easily prevent this kind of behavior by having a limit on how often someone can purchase a class change token. And you could, you know, always just play with people who are there to progress within the game AND have fun without stressing everyone out about tiny percentage differences in DPS/healing.

When ZOS arbitrarily changes how a class fundamentally works (looking at you necromancer, with the mega thread that's been on the top of the forums for weeks now) when no one asked because they "know better" it really drives home the need for a class change token. I reckon it won't belong before they do something to Arcanist.

Ironically, you just stated why they're not likely to ever do it.

changing your class every time there's a new meta, or you get nerfed, isn't the answer. Now I'm not saying that they didn't break necro, or that they're not going to nerf arcanist(because they probably will, that's just the pattern), but feeling compelled to change and being given the opportunity to regardless of what the cost is is likely something they want to avoid.

That said, at least you're not in my boat. I'm a magsorc. No one wants a fricking magsorc. At least EC cro is still a thing.

TDVM

FelisCatus wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

There is no need to add a class change chip, if you want to play a different class, create a new character. The fact that you can't change class is normal for MMOs, there are many MMOs where you can't change classes.

There is a need to add class change tokens for the players who want to make their main a new class. Between all of the skill lines, quests, map locations, character-bound achievement dyes, and mount upgrades, it takes a long time to bring an alt up to par with your main.

The fact that you want to play all classes on one character does not argue for adding a token to change class. Most of the achievements, colors, etc apply to the whole account, and those achievements that are per character they are very easy to get.
This is part of the essence in MMOs, in the pumping of characters if it is not an MMO where there is one character without creating an additional one.

There are no arguments or reasons to add such a token. There are so many more important problems in the game that need to be solved. And the idea of adding such a token is clearly not a priority

Utter nonsense. I have all my alts lvl 50 + every class. I never use them. I only enjoy playing as my main. I have a connection to my character not my alts. I have 5000+ hours in this game and I don't like alts. I like my one character, but I find dragonknight extremely boring. I would happily pay real money to change my class. They need to add it, it's only 3 skill lines. I have done nearly everything on my main. Changing your class makes more sense than changing your race or gender in Elder Scrolls. A class is 3 skill lines it would not be hard. You can lose and gain vampire/werewolf so I don't see why you can't lose and gain 3 other skill lines.

They said they'd never add alliance change tokens, and yet they did. People asked for years for companions and finally we got them. People for years asked for a necromancer class and for spell crafting, at times we were told there were no plans or it wouldn't happen. People asked for the subscription to be optional, people asked for one tamriel. People ask for specific new zones, classes or even nerfs/reworks. It may take time and pressure but eventually you do get somewhere even with compromise. I'm sure ZOS will implement it eventually especially considering a lot of people would pay real money for it. I know because I've read the threads and there are hundreds of posts on these threads and they appear quite often.

You may think it's utter nonsense but it's still not an argument in favor of adding a class change token, it would make more sense to add a guild name change token, that token would be more useful than adding a class change token just because someone doesn't want to pump another character. This will lose the essence of classes and individual characters

The alliance change token was talked about back in 2015.

Players are asking for a lot, and look where that has led to in pvp (take pvp as an example). It leads to not the best results, look at plars and necromancers, especially necromancers, look at the balance, look at the builds that are clearly not in the best condition because now they use the same builds and everyone plays the same because there is no choice, either you follow the current meta against your will or you will just be weak because you have a different build than everyone else. And players who obviously don't understand pvp continue to argue about what needs to be changed in pvp to make it easier for them to play, without thinking about those who have spent a lot of time really understanding the game and its weaknesses. The situation on the opposite side is exactly the same, and there is nowhere to simplify the game


I would suggest to offer really useful innovations, not a token of class change that is necessary for those who do not want to change the character or because just lazy.

In teso already most progress in anything is done on the whole account. Maybe it's time to just relax and play on different characters and not require the game to change to suit yourself? The game will not penalize you for this and the game will let you do it without losing anything. Unless the problem may be in pumping up your mount, but it is clearly not worth it that would add a token to change class, especially if you play often. Especially in the rewards for logging in and in the crown crates fall books for pumping up the mount.

Summary of the message: asking the developers for something is not bad if it helps solve some problem in the game that really exists, but if they add everything that the players are asking for, then it clearly will not affect for the better game.

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

If a class change token was added you would not be forced to use it or buy it. Those that want it can and I don't see why the majority of the player base (which based on these polls and threads about the topic we see constantly are largely in favour of a class change token) should be denied something because a few people say "hur dur roll an alt quit bein' lazy hur dur". You simply don't understand, no matter how many times I have to repeat myself.

I'm just as attached to my main character, I do everything with him: pvp, pve, dungeons, challenges, etc, but sooner or later I play other characters for variety.
And I'm the kind of player who is attached to his character, I wouldn't want to see this token in the game. By adding such a token, the game will lose a lot of sense in creating new characters, buying character cells, etc., which is not good for the developers, because they will lose any profit from it, even the smallest one.

And the most important thing that players emphasise in this post is that players who want to play one character will be forced to change class at the request of raid leaders if they are going for triple achievements in trials/dungeons or playing in a group in pvp where certain classes are required. Otherwise they can lose their spot in the group. And these similar situations will not be few given how many players are attached to a character
Have you considered this yet?

In fact, players often ask developers for things that are not necessary. And instead of solving real problems, developers are asked to add an unnecessary token for class change that would then cause new problems after the class change on a technical level.
Maybe in 10 years ZOS will add such a token (if all the current problems are fixed), but obviously not now when the game already has a lot of problems.

And I also do not understand (as you do) why players prefer to wait and refuse to get experience in the game on other classes just because they have an attachment to the character, your character is not going anywhere, nothing to lose. There's nothing stopping you from coming up with a new story for a new character and getting attached to it that way.
But if you prefer to wait instead of not missing the opportunity to play another class, in this case, all you have to do is either play on one character, or as I said above wait for this token, which is not a fact that will be added

barney2525

DreamyLu wrote: »

Sorry for the repeat: I believe that the solution is not with a class change token, but with a "level up straight to 50" token.

Main advantages of a booster-to-50 token:
- It doesn't require a change of existing concept. It's using what's existing as is and add a booster to it. It's a lot easier to implement.
- It doesn't spoil the purchasing of new slots and could have a reasonable price since the work behind its implementation isn't "big".

I get the 'start at Max level' concept, on Some MMOs. They are not so much Story driven as they are End Game driven, so you want to get there and play with the big kids.

I don't see where ESO is a good choice for this. The world is already designed for the developing character to be successful, even without specialized gear. It does not take THAT long to hit 50/160 if pushing to max is what you desire. Should be able to do it in 3 - 4 days, if that is your primary focus.

I don't see a big benefit to paying for it.

Malyore

TDVM wrote: »

And the most important thing that players emphasise in this post is that players who want to play one character will be forced to change class at the request of raid leaders if they are going for triple achievements in trials/dungeons or playing in a group in pvp where certain classes are required. Otherwise they can lose their spot in the group. And these similar situations will not be few given how many players are attached to a character
Have you considered this yet?
...
And I also do not understand (as you do) why players prefer to wait and refuse to get experience in the game on other classes just because they have an attachment to the character[/b], your character is not going anywhere, nothing to lose. There's nothing stopping you from coming up with a new story for a new character and getting attached to it that way.
[/b]

As some folks have said, if you're getting pressured or "forced" by toxic players in raid groups and pvp, then you're probably playing with the wrong crowd. I want to change my class for myself and my character. If someone demands I change my class, I'd simply not play with that person. If its something I really really want and is account wide, then that's a situation I'd use an alt for. Alts for me are something to use to go in and get the job done, to bring resources to my main.

As you have said too, there are some aspects to loving a main character that you don't get. One aspect for myself is that I've used my main character through all 6 main games of TES series. Compared to that, an alt just feels empty and is difficult to build up a character as exciting to play. Especially with them being built solely in the world of ESO. I mean you usually can't even do quests differently. Not much diversity in that department.
But another key element is that sometimes it's not just about switching to "the best class" for a main, it's about a class being released that fits a character way more appropriately. My main is a sorcerer, and while that's pretty close to what she's been in other games, an arcanist would fit her better. If that class was available when I began playing, that's the class I would have chosen for my character. There's also a roleplay element in a class change token that can further the experience with a main. Maybe the character was a necromancer that, after a certain quest or situation, they decided to abandon necromancy and instead pursue the nature of the warden or the healing lights of a Templar. These options would provide place markers to the map of a character, key moments where they underwent a fundamental change, allowing room for new story without having to discard or rewrite the past. That for me would enhance my experience.

OtarTheMad

ZOS already addressed this and said it would cause too many issues, implying or maybe even they said that they tested internally. I’ve seen some people say to bring them in anyway… we don’t need more bugs… no thanks. There is a reason Q3 DLC was changed to QoL and bug fixes and thank Talos it was.

A lot of things are tied to class. Leaderboards, achievements, justice system, class sets, and probably more I can’t think of. It’ll be hard to implement smoothly. I mean even to this day when I get on the leaderboards on my main it STILL shows the old name I changed away from YEARS ago. Imagine the anger if someone got top spot on a PvE leaderboard as a Necromancer but isn’t one anymore? I can see the post now: “ZOS, this needs to be fixed. Bro got top score for Necro but isn’t even a Necro anymore. [ZOS edited profanity here]” Or even worse/weirder when they get charged a bounty for casting a “criminal spell” but are a DK now… just not worth the headache imo.

I’m not a huge fan of ZOS sometimes but like I said they addressed this issue and why it can’t be done right now.

Arizona_Steve

How would it cause too many issues? All they would have to do is reset class skills so that the skill points can be assigned to the skills of the new class.

LunaFlora

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just wanted to let you all know that we do not have any plans on implementing class changes tokens at this time. There are a number of technical challenges with implementing them, and it would take a significant amount of time to solve these challenges efficiently and safely.

as a reminder that ^^ is the official response from February 2023.

OtarTheMad

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

How would it cause too many issues? All they would have to do is reset class skills so that the skill points can be assigned to the skills of the new class.

Like I said in the post above yours a lot is tied to classes. Leaderboards, quest dialogue, bounty system, class sets, achievements (look at Cyrodiil PvP achievements and new class leveling ones) and probably more. Pretty high chance those would bug out and cause some real issues.

TDVM

Malyore wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

And the most important thing that players emphasise in this post is that players who want to play one character will be forced to change class at the request of raid leaders if they are going for triple achievements in trials/dungeons or playing in a group in pvp where certain classes are required. Otherwise they can lose their spot in the group. And these similar situations will not be few given how many players are attached to a character
Have you considered this yet?
...
And I also do not understand (as you do) why players prefer to wait and refuse to get experience in the game on other classes just because they have an attachment to the character[/b], your character is not going anywhere, nothing to lose. There's nothing stopping you from coming up with a new story for a new character and getting attached to it that way.
[/b]

As some folks have said, if you're getting pressured or "forced" by toxic players in raid groups and pvp, then you're probably playing with the wrong crowd. I want to change my class for myself and my character. If someone demands I change my class, I'd simply not play with that person. If its something I really really want and is account wide, then that's a situation I'd use an alt for. Alts for me are something to use to go in and get the job done, to bring resources to my main.

As you have said too, there are some aspects to loving a main character that you don't get. One aspect for myself is that I've used my main character through all 6 main games of TES series. Compared to that, an alt just feels empty and is difficult to build up a character as exciting to play. Especially with them being built solely in the world of ESO. I mean you usually can't even do quests differently. Not much diversity in that department.
But another key element is that sometimes it's not just about switching to "the best class" for a main, it's about a class being released that fits a character way more appropriately. My main is a sorcerer, and while that's pretty close to what she's been in other games, an arcanist would fit her better. If that class was available when I began playing, that's the class I would have chosen for my character. There's also a roleplay element in a class change token that can further the experience with a main. Maybe the character was a necromancer that, after a certain quest or situation, they decided to abandon necromancy and instead pursue the nature of the warden or the healing lights of a Templar. These options would provide place markers to the map of a character, key moments where they underwent a fundamental change, allowing room for new story without having to discard or rewrite the past. That for me would enhance my experience.

If your RL is asking to change class to progress, it doesn't mean toxicity, it means you need to meet the requirements to achieve anything in the group if you want to progress in challenging content.
However, it is not an argument to add such a class change token just because a few players want to change class + it's not as easy technically as you say "just go ahead and change class". It's been said several times in this thread why it's technically difficult. The official answer from @ZOS_GinaBruno has already been given about it, there is no point in asking for something that has already been answered, let the developers do their thing.

And in that case you should write to ZOS about why there are classes in the game at all, because classes in teso are a convention of the game. No matter how much you ask, they won't add it, because if they do, there will be a bunch of new problems that you will complain about because of the class change and that will be either hard to solve or not solved at all, and that will ruin your gameplay experience and again @ZOS_GinaBruno has already told you all about it. Just keep playing for your own pleasure.

There's no point in bringing it up every time when the answer from the officials was given Feb 2023.
No game is perfect, and every game has its flaws

Here's the answer to whatever you're looking for. If you've already seen this answer, I don't think there's any point in bringing up the conversation on this topic over and over again, at least for the next few years. When the developers are ready to do it, they will let you know about it

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just wanted to let you all know that we do not have any plans on implementing class changes tokens at this time. There are a number of technical challenges with implementing them, and it would take a significant amount of time to solve these challenges efficiently and safely.

LatentBuzzard

TDVM wrote: »

If you've already seen this answer, I don't think there's any point in bringing up the conversation on this topic over and over again, at least for the next few years. When the developers are ready to do it, they will let you know about it.

Yeah, no. Bringing up the conversation over and over again demonstrates to ZOS that there's significant demand for these tokens. All this nonsense about trial groups suddenly demanding that you change your class if these tokens become available is jus that, nonsense. Trial groups can already do that by making you level alts but they don't because it's not how it works in reality, just like they don't demand that you play certain races even though there's optimal races and race change tokens.

TDVM

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

If you've already seen this answer, I don't think there's any point in bringing up the conversation on this topic over and over again, at least for the next few years. When the developers are ready to do it, they will let you know about it.

Yeah, no. Bringing up the conversation over and over again demonstrates to ZOS that there's significant demand for these tokens. All this nonsense about trial groups suddenly demanding that you change your class if these tokens become available is jus that, nonsense. Trial groups can already do that by making you level alts but they don't because it's not how it works in reality, just like they don't demand that you play certain races even though there's optimal races and race change tokens.

Is it worth talking about it and asking the developers for an empty reason about something they have already given their answer about?
On the contrary, you can make ZOS put it off until last. Shift ZOS's view from the real problem to the thing that will lead to more problems. You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.
Races and classes are not the same thing
Even if there is a demand, ZOS have made it clear and firmly clear that they are not planning such a feature anytime soon, you just don't hear the developers and keep talking about this outrage about it.

You may disagree and say it's all nonsense and rubbish, but the fact remains that ZOS have no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you may be outraged about it.

Tandor

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

How would it cause too many issues? All they would have to do is reset class skills so that the skill points can be assigned to the skills of the new class.

Like I said in the post above yours a lot is tied to classes. Leaderboards, quest dialogue, bounty system, class sets, achievements (look at Cyrodiil PvP achievements and new class leveling ones) and probably more. Pretty high chance those would bug out and cause some real issues.

Exactly, and the risk is that those unwanted issues would impact on everyone, not just on the comparative few who had activated a class change token.

Just remember what happened (to universal furore) to the comparative few who were directly affected by the recent issue relating to the PTS/PC NA synchronisation incident, and which resulted in everyone on those servers (as well as some on the PC EU server who hadn't even been on the PTS which was set to PC NA copied characters at the time) being impacted both by general server downtime and, in some cases including on PC EU, by temporary bans.

It doesn't matter whether some players feel that they've made the case for class change tokens, what matters is that ZOS think the risks and time/cost of introducing them outweigh the benefits of doing so, and that view is only likely to have been strengthened by their recent experience on the PTS.

OtarTheMad

Tandor wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

How would it cause too many issues? All they would have to do is reset class skills so that the skill points can be assigned to the skills of the new class.

Like I said in the post above yours a lot is tied to classes. Leaderboards, quest dialogue, bounty system, class sets, achievements (look at Cyrodiil PvP achievements and new class leveling ones) and probably more. Pretty high chance those would bug out and cause some real issues.

Exactly, and the risk is that those unwanted issues would impact on everyone, not just on the comparative few who had activated a class change token.

Just remember what happened (to universal furore) to the comparative few who were directly affected by the recent issue relating to the PTS/PC NA synchronisation incident, and which resulted in everyone on those servers (as well as some on the PC EU server who hadn't even been on the PTS which was set to PC NA copied characters at the time) being impacted both by general server downtime and, in some cases including on PC EU, by temporary bans.

It doesn't matter whether some players feel that they've made the case for class change tokens, what matters is that ZOS think the risks of introducing them outweigh the risks and time/cost of doing so, and that view is only likely to have been strengthened by their recent experience on the PTS.

Exactly, no one wants that.

I also look at it like this: ZOS listened and heard players initial feedback/suggestion about Class Change Tokens and they tried it out to see if it would work. They determined risk was too high with the issues that would be introduced and gave that statement that Gina did eventually. Thats good, even if it was a no. Tells me that they do try stuff we suggest, we just don’t know the result sometimes.

Vulkunne

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

How would it cause too many issues? All they would have to do is reset class skills so that the skill points can be assigned to the skills of the new class.

Like I said in the post above yours a lot is tied to classes. Leaderboards, quest dialogue, bounty system, class sets, achievements (look at Cyrodiil PvP achievements and new class leveling ones) and probably more. Pretty high chance those would bug out and cause some real issues.

Exactly, and the risk is that those unwanted issues would impact on everyone, not just on the comparative few who had activated a class change token.

Just remember what happened (to universal furore) to the comparative few who were directly affected by the recent issue relating to the PTS/PC NA synchronisation incident, and which resulted in everyone on those servers (as well as some on the PC EU server who hadn't even been on the PTS which was set to PC NA copied characters at the time) being impacted both by general server downtime and, in some cases including on PC EU, by temporary bans.

It doesn't matter whether some players feel that they've made the case for class change tokens, what matters is that ZOS think the risks of introducing them outweigh the risks and time/cost of doing so, and that view is only likely to have been strengthened by their recent experience on the PTS.

Exactly, no one wants that.

I also look at it like this: ZOS listened and heard players initial feedback/suggestion about Class Change Tokens and they tried it out to see if it would work. They determined risk was too high with the issues that would be introduced and gave that statement that Gina did eventually. Thats good, even if it was a no. Tells me that they do try stuff we suggest, we just don’t know the result sometimes.

Yeah all that is fine and well. However reading thru some of these responses its obvious there's an agenda at work to thwart this concept. It isn't that it cannot or shouldn't be done or that it wouldn't work. I'm sure scribing took alot of work and going forward will require even more intense alternations and they can do that so there's no reason why they can't do this.

First steps are always the hardest. Yes, it could result in alot of problems but so did U35. You talk about them listening to us and all this, which I don't believe it. They rammed U35 down our collective throats with a noticeably large chunk of players opposed to it. I wish you guys would stop saying its a minority who wants this or that because there is a minority in this game that gets what they want. But if they can do U35 and uh they can do scribing and others on here can get what they want, well that's alot of issues right there. Right? How many problems come just from those things in this scope. Maybe its time for ZOS to address some of the problems with the game. Playing devils advocate, the classes probably weren't intended to be moved around but alot of things weren't intended for this game and they happened.

The only reason this isn't being done is because they have other reasons for blocking it. And I'm not trying to get in the way of that but at the same time, for all the Crown purchases and years of subs and all this support many of us have given this game it really seems like every time we ask for something all we hear is what they can't do if we hear anything. And then meanwhile, someone gets on here or a streamer or a class rep and they say this is OP, this needs a nerf and low and behold what happens... it gets nerfed. I have a short list which I won't post but there's a definite pattern from changes following their posts. And it just kind of pisses me off a little that for my part, others too, we support this game for so long and just totally get disregarded. I like this thing and now so and so can't stop talking about and now it's gone.

And not just me but others have said similar things as well. Sorry if this post is not up to everyone's standards but saying what everyone wants to hear or what sounds good all the time serves no one.

LatentBuzzard

TDVM wrote: »

Is it worth talking about it and asking the developers for an empty reason about something they have already given their answer about?
On the contrary, you can make ZOS put it off until last. Shift ZOS's view from the real problem to the thing that will lead to more problems. You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.
Races and classes are not the same thing
Even if there is a demand, ZOS have made it clear and firmly clear that they are not planning such a feature anytime soon, you just don't hear the developers and keep talking about this outrage about it.

You may disagree and say it's all nonsense and rubbish, but the fact remains that ZOS have no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you may be outraged about it.

Gee, if only there were a way to Google past threads on Alliance change tokens such as this one where it was confidently stated.

"Unfortunately, a token just can't be done. I won't rehash the technical part since it's in plenty of the previous threads requesting this."

and

"As I am sure someone else has pointed out Zos has said they have heard the requests and have clearly stated they are not interested in offering a means to change alliances. I watched that stream about a year ago and they were direct with the reply."

and

"I asked Rob face to face at an events and he stated they're not interested in doing it for the game and there is also a whole lot of work which would need to be done, it's apparently not a simple thing like race chance"

Or even

"I spoke with Rob about breaking alliance choice away from character creation (something I’ve wanted to see in ESO for a long time), we spoke about how there are technical issues (which is why they don’t and won’t offer faction changes) and whilst these could be overcome with a large investment of time ZOS needs to balance between if these would be good use of that time vs other things they could be working on."

Look familiar ? At the time the same nonsense was being spewed about Alliance Change tokens and you know what ? They released Alliance Change tokens ! Fancy that ! It was nonsense about Alliance change tokens and it's nonsense about Class Change tokens.

TDVM wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.

Yes actually, yes I do. The answer is none or no more than any other change that they make. All this nonsense about "oh it will take time away form other development work !" well you don't say. Combat changes take time away from other work. New houses take time away from other work. New sets take time away from other work. New Crown Store items take time away from other work. All work takes time away from other work because it is the work. It's just priorities and and there's no reason that it should be prioritised than any other Crown Store item.

OtarTheMad

Vulkunne wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

How would it cause too many issues? All they would have to do is reset class skills so that the skill points can be assigned to the skills of the new class.

Like I said in the post above yours a lot is tied to classes. Leaderboards, quest dialogue, bounty system, class sets, achievements (look at Cyrodiil PvP achievements and new class leveling ones) and probably more. Pretty high chance those would bug out and cause some real issues.

Exactly, and the risk is that those unwanted issues would impact on everyone, not just on the comparative few who had activated a class change token.

Just remember what happened (to universal furore) to the comparative few who were directly affected by the recent issue relating to the PTS/PC NA synchronisation incident, and which resulted in everyone on those servers (as well as some on the PC EU server who hadn't even been on the PTS which was set to PC NA copied characters at the time) being impacted both by general server downtime and, in some cases including on PC EU, by temporary bans.

It doesn't matter whether some players feel that they've made the case for class change tokens, what matters is that ZOS think the risks of introducing them outweigh the risks and time/cost of doing so, and that view is only likely to have been strengthened by their recent experience on the PTS.

Exactly, no one wants that.

I also look at it like this: ZOS listened and heard players initial feedback/suggestion about Class Change Tokens and they tried it out to see if it would work. They determined risk was too high with the issues that would be introduced and gave that statement that Gina did eventually. Thats good, even if it was a no. Tells me that they do try stuff we suggest, we just don’t know the result sometimes.

Yeah all that is fine and well. However reading thru some of these responses its obvious there's an agenda at work to thwart this concept. It isn't that it cannot or shouldn't be done or that it wouldn't work. I'm sure scribing took alot of work and going forward will require even more intense alternations and they can do that so there's no reason why they can't do this.

First steps are always the hardest. Yes, it could result in alot of problems but so did U35. You talk about them listening to us and all this, which I don't believe it. They rammed U35 down our collective throats with a noticeably large chunk of players opposed to it. I wish you guys would stop saying its a minority who wants this or that because there is a minority in this game that gets what they want. But if they can do U35 and uh they can do scribing and others on here can get what they want, well that's alot of issues right there. Right? How many problems come just from those things in this scope. Maybe its time for ZOS to address some of the problems with the game. Playing devils advocate, the classes probably weren't intended to be moved around but alot of things weren't intended for this game and they happened.

The only reason this isn't being done is because they have other reasons for blocking it. And I'm not trying to get in the way of that but at the same time, for all the Crown purchases and years of subs and all this support many of us have given this game it really seems like every time we ask for something all we hear is what they can't do if we hear anything. And then meanwhile, someone gets on here or a streamer or a class rep and they say this is OP, this needs a nerf and low and behold what happens... it gets nerfed. I have a short list which I won't post but there's a definite pattern from changes following their posts. And it just kind of pisses me off a little that for my part, others too, we support this game for so long and just totally get disregarded. I like this thing and now so and so can't stop talking about and now it's gone.

And not just me but others have said similar things as well. Sorry if this post is not up to everyone's standards but saying what everyone wants to hear or what sounds good all the time serves no one.

That's fine if you choose not to believe it, but I do. I've said in other threads on this topic and this one too most likely... I LOVE the idea of Class Change Tokens... my main is a Necromancer... I'd love to change that instead of leveling up another character and doing all quests and all zones again... but if that means bringing in new bugs then pass. I'll just take my time and level a new character... meh.

I've also read other opinions here and elsewhere on how it might spark really negative conversations around "pay to win" and "nerfing classes with the intent on pushing tokens" which I could see both of those happening and easiest way to avoid those headaches/nightmares is to just not make Class Change Tokens.

Malyore

TDVM wrote: »

... there will be a bunch of new problems that you will complain about ...

Are you talking to me @TDVM ?

LunaFlora wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just wanted to let you all know that we do not have any plans on implementing class changes tokens at this time. There are a number of technical challenges with implementing them, and it would take a significant amount of time to solve these challenges efficiently and safely.

as a reminder that ^^ is the official response from February 2023.

I know this is the official answer. But it also sounds like ZOS has surpassed many times from technical constraints. Part of the reason we all keep asking for class change tokens is to encourage ZOS to continue to explore developmental horizons and to try to make it a possibility at some point down the road, even if it's not a possibility right now.

Malyore

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Is it worth talking about it and asking the developers for an empty reason about something they have already given their answer about?
On the contrary, you can make ZOS put it off until last. Shift ZOS's view from the real problem to the thing that will lead to more problems. You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.
Races and classes are not the same thing
Even if there is a demand, ZOS have made it clear and firmly clear that they are not planning such a feature anytime soon, you just don't hear the developers and keep talking about this outrage about it.

You may disagree and say it's all nonsense and rubbish, but the fact remains that ZOS have no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you may be outraged about it.

Gee, if only there were a way to Google past threads on Alliance change tokens such as this one where it was confidently stated.

"Unfortunately, a token just can't be done. I won't rehash the technical part since it's in plenty of the previous threads requesting this."

and

"As I am sure someone else has pointed out Zos has said they have heard the requests and have clearly stated they are not interested in offering a means to change alliances. I watched that stream about a year ago and they were direct with the reply."

and

"I asked Rob face to face at an events and he stated they're not interested in doing it for the game and there is also a whole lot of work which would need to be done, it's apparently not a simple thing like race chance"

Or even

"I spoke with Rob about breaking alliance choice away from character creation (something I’ve wanted to see in ESO for a long time), we spoke about how there are technical issues (which is why they don’t and won’t offer faction changes) and whilst these could be overcome with a large investment of time ZOS needs to balance between if these would be good use of that time vs other things they could be working on."

Look familiar ? At the time the same nonsense was being spewed about Alliance Change tokens and you know what ? They released Alliance Change tokens ! Fancy that ! It was nonsense about Alliance change tokens and it's nonsense about Class Change tokens.

TDVM wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.

Yes actually, yes I do. The answer is none or no more than any other change that they make. All this nonsense about "oh it will take time away form other development work !" well you don't say. Combat changes take time away from other work. New houses take time away from other work. New sets take time away from other work. New Crown Store items take time away from other work. All work takes time away from other work because it is the work. It's just priorities and and there's no reason that it should be prioritised than any other Crown Store item.

Wonderfully said. Thank you for going through the searching effort to pull quotes from other threads. Your last paragraph is also very valid and is applicable for a lot on these forum discussions.

LunaFlora

Malyore wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

... there will be a bunch of new problems that you will complain about ...

Are you talking to me @TDVM ?

LunaFlora wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just wanted to let you all know that we do not have any plans on implementing class changes tokens at this time. There are a number of technical challenges with implementing them, and it would take a significant amount of time to solve these challenges efficiently and safely.

as a reminder that ^^ is the official response from February 2023.

I know this is the official answer. But it also sounds like ZOS has surpassed many times from technical constraints. Part of the reason we all keep asking for class change tokens is to encourage ZOS to continue to explore developmental horizons and to try to make it a possibility at some point down the road, even if it's not a possibility right now.

i also want class change tokens, i just quoted the response as a reminder since the thread has gotten pretty big and other people might have forgotten or just didn't know.

i also believe it is probably possible for zos to eventually add the feature

TDVM

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Is it worth talking about it and asking the developers for an empty reason about something they have already given their answer about?
On the contrary, you can make ZOS put it off until last. Shift ZOS's view from the real problem to the thing that will lead to more problems. You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.
Races and classes are not the same thing
Even if there is a demand, ZOS have made it clear and firmly clear that they are not planning such a feature anytime soon, you just don't hear the developers and keep talking about this outrage about it.

You may disagree and say it's all nonsense and rubbish, but the fact remains that ZOS have no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you may be outraged about it.

Gee, if only there were a way to Google past threads on Alliance change tokens such as this one where it was confidently stated.

"Unfortunately, a token just can't be done. I won't rehash the technical part since it's in plenty of the previous threads requesting this."

and

"As I am sure someone else has pointed out Zos has said they have heard the requests and have clearly stated they are not interested in offering a means to change alliances. I watched that stream about a year ago and they were direct with the reply."

and

"I asked Rob face to face at an events and he stated they're not interested in doing it for the game and there is also a whole lot of work which would need to be done, it's apparently not a simple thing like race chance"

Or even

"I spoke with Rob about breaking alliance choice away from character creation (something I’ve wanted to see in ESO for a long time), we spoke about how there are technical issues (which is why they don’t and won’t offer faction changes) and whilst these could be overcome with a large investment of time ZOS needs to balance between if these would be good use of that time vs other things they could be working on."

Look familiar ? At the time the same nonsense was being spewed about Alliance Change tokens and you know what ? They released Alliance Change tokens ! Fancy that ! It was nonsense about Alliance change tokens and it's nonsense about Class Change tokens.

TDVM wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the problems that could be caused by this.

Yes actually, yes I do. The answer is none or no more than any other change that they make. All this nonsense about "oh it will take time away form other development work !" well you don't say. Combat changes take time away from other work. New houses take time away from other work. New sets take time away from other work. New Crown Store items take time away from other work. All work takes time away from other work because it is the work. It's just priorities and and there's no reason that it should be prioritised than any other Crown Store item.

I already replied to someone else about the alliance token to someone else, you can look it up and read it.
There are still some problems with the name change token, and you want a class change token that will cause more problems. Just because they added an alliance change token doesn't mean they will add a class change token, they may not add it at all and say they won't add it.

You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains, but the fact remains that ZOS has no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you get outraged about it and try to prove otherwise.
To be honest, I'm tired of telling everyone the same thing.

Why look for workarounds if the game already lets you do everything on all characters. But if this tocken is added, don't complain that this has become a new problem

fizzylu

TDVM wrote: »

You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains, but the fact remains that ZOS has no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you get outraged about it and try to prove otherwise.
To be honest, I'm tired of telling everyone the same thing.

To be honest, no one can really say if there are no plans of adding a class change token or not considering even if there were.... Zenimax wouldn't tell us until it was about ready to be added to the game (just like they do everything else). And a quote from over a year ago stating that they "do not have any plans on implementing class changes tokens at this time" kind of proves that even more. And things like the addition of class leveling achievements could even be one of the first steps to adding one for all we know.
And either way, it doesn't change the fact that players are very much able and allowed to voice what kind of things they would like to see added to the game to make their time spent in it more enjoyable. Your own opinion on the requested feature doesn't change that.

FelisCatus

Sakiri wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

This is basically how I feel about my main character and trying to explain it to people who are happy having a bunch of characters is pointless, I've learned. But yeah.... I want to do the content on him and build him up, not an alt just because I don't enjoy his class anymore after Zenimax changed it and/or the way combat works.

Sakiri wrote: »

And if they ever do, I hope they're more expensive than crown houses, because I, for one, do not want compelled to change class to fit a meta.

They could easily prevent this kind of behavior by having a limit on how often someone can purchase a class change token. And you could, you know, always just play with people who are there to progress within the game AND have fun without stressing everyone out about tiny percentage differences in DPS/healing.

When ZOS arbitrarily changes how a class fundamentally works (looking at you necromancer, with the mega thread that's been on the top of the forums for weeks now) when no one asked because they "know better" it really drives home the need for a class change token. I reckon it won't belong before they do something to Arcanist.

Ironically, you just stated why they're not likely to ever do it.

changing your class every time there's a new meta, or you get nerfed, isn't the answer. Now I'm not saying that they didn't break necro, or that they're not going to nerf arcanist(because they probably will, that's just the pattern), but feeling compelled to change and being given the opportunity to regardless of what the cost is is likely something they want to avoid.

That said, at least you're not in my boat. I'm a magsorc. No one wants a fricking magsorc. At least EC cro is still a thing.

People switch to their levelled alts every new meta a class change would not make a difference because it would likely be barred behind a high price. So flavour of the month meta alts are "worse for the community" than a class change token would ever be.

Although I don't think players should volunteer themselves as judge, jury and executioner for what is "good" or "bad" for the community when your take is completely subjective. It also comes across as domineering and condescending to a lot of people who don't follow the meta or don't care about it. Some people just care about roleplaying (shock - in an mmorpg).

fizzylu

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

changing your class every time there's a new meta, or you get nerfed, isn't the answer. Now I'm not saying that they didn't break necro, or that they're not going to nerf arcanist(because they probably will, that's just the pattern), but feeling compelled to change and being given the opportunity to regardless of what the cost is is likely something they want to avoid.

People switch to their levelled alts every new meta a class change would not make a difference because it would likely be barred behind a high price. So flavour of the month meta alts are "worse for the community" than a class change token would ever be.

Yep, people who are that concerned about playing what's meta already have alts of every class anyway so I don't see how that argument has any weight. I mean, seriously.... where in any of these threads about class change tokens have you seen someone say "I want class change tokens so I can change to the meta one every update"? I know I haven't seen it. Because again, the people that worry about what's meta already have 20+ characters or whatever the maximum is now of every single class and their magicka/stamina/hybrid versions.