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nerf siege
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Sieges are the only thing currently in the game that allows pug groups and zergs to have a shot at killing coordinated ball groups (which even then a keeps worth of sieges are needed because of the ridiculous mobility and CC immunity on every class and that healing is allowed to stack far too much currently).
By nerfing siege damage against players, you make ball groups literally uncounterable outside of another more optimised and better coordinated ball group and this would make cyrodiil even worse to play in than it currently is.
The best thing they can do for sieges is to fix performance so that the AoE's and damage from sieges isn't invisible which brings back counter play to siege fire.
Yep.
6 -
Quackery✭✭✭✭✭What we need is towers being destructible again. That would solve 99% of the issue.2 -
finehair✭✭✭✭It has an indicated red circle . Just move away and boom, you get 0 damage from siege.
Also my brother in Talos, if you get hit by a stone trebuchet I think you should die.2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Its so many almost impossible to kill troll tanks in the game that you need to use artillery to kill them.
I say we need better anti tank weapons, NLAW pls
Or an oblivion fire lancer is more realistic.
Troll tanks are a separate issue that yes does need addressing. Are you saying that siege is the answer for this? Should a low level inexperience player who perhaps is trying to figure out how best to use his skills be shown that simply setting up a ballista is better? You also fail to account for the fact that such tanks are using the weapons themselves so they are able to kill. Are you happy for that scenario too?
There is no such thing as "troll tanks".
This is an MMORPG and it has tanks, healers and dps roles. All characters bring something to the table, tank roles happen to be harder to kill while bringing essential tools like Guard, Taunt, etc.
Just because you can't 1vX someone does not invalidate their playstyle.
This is not an "issue" that needs fixing. The playstyle of Cyro is designed around large scale battle where all roles can bring something to the table and all roles are vulnerable to the damage large groups put out.
Cyro is not designed for 1vX balance. You can argue the viability of siege weapons but you can't argue whether tanks or healers should remain viable in Cyro.
Maybe try and understand that different people enjoy playing different roles in PvP?7 -
Xandreia_✭✭✭✭✭
✭It has an indicated red circle . Just move away and boom, you get 0 damage from siege.
Also my brother in Talos, if you get hit by a stone trebuchet I think you should die.
The whole "move out of the red circle" thing is fine until you are being root spammed until you can't break out and end up just on your knees. Until you have been in the situation OP is saying you have absolutely no idea of what the issue is. Being chased around a tower by a group isn't the problem, having meatbags, trebs and ballistas pointed at you while kiting a full group or more IS the problem. We want to fight outnumbered, we don't want to have more siege than people on us and having more siege than the people we are running with is ridiculous, it's quite obvious the forums are filled with more casuals that don't understand 1vx or small scale so any opposition to siege is instantly jumped upon with a casual mindset and hatred of small scale. Turns out "play as you want" only means "play like a casual and zerg solos"1 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So basically you're fine with being able to fight 10 people at a time and feel that's balanced, however you don't want to fight against siege because that turns the tables? That's the thing about tables though, sometimes they turn.16 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It has an indicated red circle . Just move away and boom, you get 0 damage from siege.
Also my brother in Talos, if you get hit by a stone trebuchet I think you should die.
The whole "move out of the red circle" thing is fine until you are being root spammed until you can't break out and end up just on your knees. Until you have been in the situation OP is saying you have absolutely no idea of what the issue is. Being chased around a tower by a group isn't the problem, having meatbags, trebs and ballistas pointed at you while kiting a full group or more IS the problem. We want to fight outnumbered, we don't want to have more siege than people on us and having more siege than the people we are running with is ridiculous, it's quite obvious the forums are filled with more casuals that don't understand 1vx or small scale so any opposition to siege is instantly jumped upon with a casual mindset and hatred of small scale. Turns out "play as you want" only means "play like a casual and zerg solos"
I really don't understand the logic here, aside from "Siege means I lose to casuals. Please nerf it."
Here's how I see most of these encounters go down:
This tower-runner is running around the tower, trying to lure in a group to chase them. Because the tower-runner is built for this sort of fight, and does it very well. They are an excellent example of this type of outnumbered fighting, able to pick apart a chasing group and burst people who overextend. If the group is disorganized and chases, this tower runner will tear them apart one by one.
The group refuses to chase (their first smart move) and sets up siege instead (their second smart move) because no one is contractually obligated to fight a tower runner in a tower.
The tower runner is not built to withstand siege. The tower runner tries to dodge the siege circles, but it turns out that the group is using roots and CCs to stop the tower runner from running (their third smart move.)
Who got outplayed there?
Like, I can totally see why tower runners don't like siege. Once the siege comes out, that's a pretty sure bet that the enemy players haven't fallen for their trap. Moreover, the tower runner would have to leave the comfort zone of their tower and fight the group on their own ground to stop the siege. Siege utterly flips the terms of the engagement from a mano a mano fight of "skill" to a group performing group tactics properly.
It's an AvAvA zone. Individual skill sometimes trumps numbers, but Numbers + Group Tactics almost always trumps individual skill unless you are exceptionally good. And most tower runners are only exceptionally good at fighting disorganized groups who chase, not groups who wisely refuse to take the bait.
Edited: autocorrect ate some words.Edited by VaranisArano on 19 January 2023 16:4219 -
HailstoSithis✭✭✭Setting up a siege weapon could have a cast/assembly-time.
It would make sense that a giant siege weapon would take time to setup anyways. Then again, carrying them in our pockets doesn't make any sense at all except for the fact this is a fantasy-MMORPG.
In order to address/counter this sort of gameplay in Cyrodiil though, I think a cast/assembly-time for siege weapons could help offset this trend.
What do you think @nuttytom?Edited by HailstoSithis on 19 January 2023 16:110 -
Batmanna✭✭✭Sieges are fine. Annoying? yeah. Sometimes frustrating to play around? Yeah even more. They need a nerf ? Hell no.
On another topic, [snip] oils, hate them with passion and if something damage shud be decreased since they are by far the easier to spam and overlap.
[Edited for Censor Bypass]Edited by Psiion on 20 January 2023 00:540 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭@nuttytom if you are being run down by siege, change your strategy. If it is 4v20 than even without siege your 4 man group won't stand a chance. The siege simply makes it easier to remove your group from the equation quicker so the zerg can go focus on another objective.
IMO Siege should do more damage not less. Meatbags are great at reducing healing but adding a shattershot to the mix and now you will also take more. Groups I run with we try to run meatbags and shattershot and along with anything that makes it to kill other groups faster. Sieging is how you win campaigns, not going 1v1.Edited by MEBengalsFan2001 on 19 January 2023 18:417 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Its so many almost impossible to kill troll tanks in the game that you need to use artillery to kill them.
I say we need better anti tank weapons, NLAW pls
Or an oblivion fire lancer is more realistic.
Troll tanks are a separate issue that yes does need addressing. Are you saying that siege is the answer for this? Should a low level inexperience player who perhaps is trying to figure out how best to use his skills be shown that simply setting up a ballista is better? You also fail to account for the fact that such tanks are using the weapons themselves so they are able to kill. Are you happy for that scenario too?
There is no such thing as "troll tanks".
This statement is flat out untrue. I know this because I have played a troll tank build before in pvp, multiple times.
They definitely do exist and tbh, can make for some of the most fun moments in the game when you just want to mess around and have some fun in pvp without being serious or sweaty.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HailstoSithis wrote: »Setting up a siege weapon could have a cast/assembly-time.
It would make sense that a giant siege weapon would take time to setup anyways. Then again, carrying them in our pockets doesn't make any sense at all except for the fact this is a fantasy-MMORPG.
In order to address/counter this sort of gameplay in Cyrodiil though, I think a cast/assembly-time for siege weapons could help offset this trend.
What do you think @nuttytom?
they already do, the sieges don't instantly place and allow you to fire, it takes about 5 seconds or more to set one up to then be allowed to fire it, it also takes considerable time to pack them up again as well (another 5+ seconds), all the time they are being set up or packed up, you can't do anything (can't even move) otherwise they don't place or pack up. The issue is that players complaining about them don't bother pressuring the siege placers (placing/packing up sieges can also be interrupted/stunned, same as using them too, which I do often) so using them out in the open is actually very risky against good players who will immediately focus you down with DoTs, AoEs or hit and run interruptions.9 -
Luede✭✭✭✭✭
should this happen when already fighting vs heavily outnumbered?
(plenty more screens for you if you need btw)
1. judging by the damage numbers you are a vampire, so it is your personal choice to be vulnerable to fire
2. you must assign your dodge button, because you can also dodge the existing dot
yes, in a keep siege, siege weapons can be an additional pain, but you have the choice to fight out of range. If you have problems with siege weapons in the open field, there is a completely different problem that you should address first. learn to play pvp8 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah, it sucks right now that sometimes siege feels like it hits super hard, but as annoying as that is; I'm not sure it's a bad thing.
I don't think it should be a way for someone who gave up damage for survivability, sometimes extreme survivability even; to effectively give them damage as well to where you see them basically dropping it in field fights or otherwise face to face encounters or to basically siege while tanking a few people.
I think you could make the reload and time it already takes to setup, require someone to be on the siege for it to progress almost like a channel. The person doing it can still jump off if need be and get back in the channel where they left off, but an enemy can interrupt and reset the channel0 -
HailstoSithis✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »HailstoSithis wrote: »Setting up a siege weapon could have a cast/assembly-time.
It would make sense that a giant siege weapon would take time to setup anyways. Then again, carrying them in our pockets doesn't make any sense at all except for the fact this is a fantasy-MMORPG.
In order to address/counter this sort of gameplay in Cyrodiil though, I think a cast/assembly-time for siege weapons could help offset this trend.
What do you think @nuttytom?
they already do, the sieges don't instantly place and allow you to fire, it takes about 5 seconds or more to set one up to then be allowed to fire it, it also takes considerable time to pack them up again as well (another 5+ seconds), all the time they are being set up or packed up, you can't do anything (can't even move) otherwise they don't place or pack up. The issue is that players complaining about them don't bother pressuring the siege placers (placing/packing up sieges can also be interrupted/stunned, same as using them too, which I do often) so using them out in the open is actually very risky against good players who will immediately focus you down with DoTs, AoEs or hit and run interruptions.
Oh okay. It's been like 2+ years since I've played so that was lost on me. Well shoot, if this is already the case, I don't see the problem with siege anymore lol.Edited by HailstoSithis on 20 January 2023 14:570 -
TheMightyRevan✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »It has an indicated red circle . Just move away and boom, you get 0 damage from siege.
Also my brother in Talos, if you get hit by a stone trebuchet I think you should die.
The whole "move out of the red circle" thing is fine until you are being root spammed until you can't break out and end up just on your knees. Until you have been in the situation OP is saying you have absolutely no idea of what the issue is. Being chased around a tower by a group isn't the problem, having meatbags, trebs and ballistas pointed at you while kiting a full group or more IS the problem. We want to fight outnumbered, we don't want to have more siege than people on us and having more siege than the people we are running with is ridiculous, it's quite obvious the forums are filled with more casuals that don't understand 1vx or small scale so any opposition to siege is instantly jumped upon with a casual mindset and hatred of small scale. Turns out "play as you want" only means "play like a casual and zerg solos"
I really don't understand the logic here, aside from "Siege means I lose to casuals. Please nerf it."
Here's how I see most of these encounters go down:
This tower-runner is running around the tower, trying to lure in a group to chase them. Because the tower-runner is built for this sort of fight, and does it very well. They are an excellent example of this type of outnumbered fighting, able to pick apart a chasing group and burst people who overextend. If the group is disorganized and chases, this tower runner will tear them apart one by one.
The group refuses to chase (their first smart move) and sets up siege instead (their second smart move) because no one is contractually obligated to fight a tower runner in a tower.
The tower runner is not built to withstand siege. The tower runner tries to dodge the siege circles, but it turns out that the group is using roots and CCs to stop the tower runner from running (their third smart move.)
Who got outplayed there?
Like, I can totally see why tower runners don't like siege. Once the siege comes out, that's a pretty sure bet that the enemy players haven't fallen for their trap. Moreover, the tower runner would have to leave the comfort zone of their tower and fight the group on their own ground to stop the siege. Siege utterly flips the terms of the engagement from a mano a mano fight of "skill" to a group performing group tactics properly.
It's an AvAvA zone. Individual skill sometimes trumps numbers, but Numbers + Group Tactics almost always trumps individual skill unless you are exceptionally good. And most tower runners are only exceptionally good at fighting disorganized groups who chase, not groups who wisely refuse to take the bait.
Edited: autocorrect ate some words.
Who was talking about towers. People put up sieges everywhere, not just in towers after failing to chase. Literally in a keep courtyard in your face. That's definetely ridicolous. Also Siege literally beats group tactics 90 % of the time. Like what game are you even playing.1 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭@TheMightyRevan he's playing the same game as you, just at a higher level. Perhaps he didn't read the thread very thoroughly though because he assumed good players were complaining about taking siege in outnumbered situations.
Having followed the thread myself though, I can see it is more about bad players dying to other bad players.
Siege in a keep courtyard is not ridiculous. That's pretty much exactly where it should be. Get some healers on your team, stop playing a glass cannon, and learn how to Cyrodiil.11 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HailstoSithis wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »HailstoSithis wrote: »Setting up a siege weapon could have a cast/assembly-time.
It would make sense that a giant siege weapon would take time to setup anyways. Then again, carrying them in our pockets doesn't make any sense at all except for the fact this is a fantasy-MMORPG.
In order to address/counter this sort of gameplay in Cyrodiil though, I think a cast/assembly-time for siege weapons could help offset this trend.
What do you think @nuttytom?
they already do, the sieges don't instantly place and allow you to fire, it takes about 5 seconds or more to set one up to then be allowed to fire it, it also takes considerable time to pack them up again as well (another 5+ seconds), all the time they are being set up or packed up, you can't do anything (can't even move) otherwise they don't place or pack up. The issue is that players complaining about them don't bother pressuring the siege placers (placing/packing up sieges can also be interrupted/stunned, same as using them too, which I do often) so using them out in the open is actually very risky against good players who will immediately focus you down with DoTs, AoEs or hit and run interruptions.
Oh okay. It's been like 2+ years since I've played so that was lost on me. Well shoot, if this is already the case, I don't see the problem with siege anymore lol.
yeah, its why I'm fine with the current state of sieges and have the attitude that if they got me with siege out in the open, its on me/my group because I/we didn't pressure them at all to force them off their sieges.4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheMightyRevan wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »It has an indicated red circle . Just move away and boom, you get 0 damage from siege.
Also my brother in Talos, if you get hit by a stone trebuchet I think you should die.
The whole "move out of the red circle" thing is fine until you are being root spammed until you can't break out and end up just on your knees. Until you have been in the situation OP is saying you have absolutely no idea of what the issue is. Being chased around a tower by a group isn't the problem, having meatbags, trebs and ballistas pointed at you while kiting a full group or more IS the problem. We want to fight outnumbered, we don't want to have more siege than people on us and having more siege than the people we are running with is ridiculous, it's quite obvious the forums are filled with more casuals that don't understand 1vx or small scale so any opposition to siege is instantly jumped upon with a casual mindset and hatred of small scale. Turns out "play as you want" only means "play like a casual and zerg solos"
I really don't understand the logic here, aside from "Siege means I lose to casuals. Please nerf it."
Here's how I see most of these encounters go down:
This tower-runner is running around the tower, trying to lure in a group to chase them. Because the tower-runner is built for this sort of fight, and does it very well. They are an excellent example of this type of outnumbered fighting, able to pick apart a chasing group and burst people who overextend. If the group is disorganized and chases, this tower runner will tear them apart one by one.
The group refuses to chase (their first smart move) and sets up siege instead (their second smart move) because no one is contractually obligated to fight a tower runner in a tower.
The tower runner is not built to withstand siege. The tower runner tries to dodge the siege circles, but it turns out that the group is using roots and CCs to stop the tower runner from running (their third smart move.)
Who got outplayed there?
Like, I can totally see why tower runners don't like siege. Once the siege comes out, that's a pretty sure bet that the enemy players haven't fallen for their trap. Moreover, the tower runner would have to leave the comfort zone of their tower and fight the group on their own ground to stop the siege. Siege utterly flips the terms of the engagement from a mano a mano fight of "skill" to a group performing group tactics properly.
It's an AvAvA zone. Individual skill sometimes trumps numbers, but Numbers + Group Tactics almost always trumps individual skill unless you are exceptionally good. And most tower runners are only exceptionally good at fighting disorganized groups who chase, not groups who wisely refuse to take the bait.
Edited: autocorrect ate some words.
Who was talking about towers. People put up sieges everywhere, not just in towers after failing to chase. Literally in a keep courtyard in your face. That's definetely ridicolous. Also Siege literally beats group tactics 90 % of the time. Like what game are you even playing.
The OP first brought up towers as one example of a place where siege is used. And the person I was replying to was literally talking about being chased around a tower by a group + siege...so that who's talking about towers.
Question for you: What's ridiculous about players using siege weapons to defend their own keep?Edited by VaranisArano on 21 January 2023 17:096 -
TheMightyRevan✭✭✭@TheMightyRevan he's playing the same game as you, just at a higher level. Perhaps he didn't read the thread very thoroughly though because he assumed good players were complaining about taking siege in outnumbered situations.
Having followed the thread myself though, I can see it is more about bad players dying to other bad players.
Siege in a keep courtyard is not ridiculous. That's pretty much exactly where it should be. Get some healers on your team, stop playing a glass cannon, and learn how to Cyrodiil.
Thats a very low effort bait, your entire response shows me which side of the zerg youre on.0 -
TheMightyRevan✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »TheMightyRevan wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »It has an indicated red circle . Just move away and boom, you get 0 damage from siege.
Also my brother in Talos, if you get hit by a stone trebuchet I think you should die.
The whole "move out of the red circle" thing is fine until you are being root spammed until you can't break out and end up just on your knees. Until you have been in the situation OP is saying you have absolutely no idea of what the issue is. Being chased around a tower by a group isn't the problem, having meatbags, trebs and ballistas pointed at you while kiting a full group or more IS the problem. We want to fight outnumbered, we don't want to have more siege than people on us and having more siege than the people we are running with is ridiculous, it's quite obvious the forums are filled with more casuals that don't understand 1vx or small scale so any opposition to siege is instantly jumped upon with a casual mindset and hatred of small scale. Turns out "play as you want" only means "play like a casual and zerg solos"
I really don't understand the logic here, aside from "Siege means I lose to casuals. Please nerf it."
Here's how I see most of these encounters go down:
This tower-runner is running around the tower, trying to lure in a group to chase them. Because the tower-runner is built for this sort of fight, and does it very well. They are an excellent example of this type of outnumbered fighting, able to pick apart a chasing group and burst people who overextend. If the group is disorganized and chases, this tower runner will tear them apart one by one.
The group refuses to chase (their first smart move) and sets up siege instead (their second smart move) because no one is contractually obligated to fight a tower runner in a tower.
The tower runner is not built to withstand siege. The tower runner tries to dodge the siege circles, but it turns out that the group is using roots and CCs to stop the tower runner from running (their third smart move.)
Who got outplayed there?
Like, I can totally see why tower runners don't like siege. Once the siege comes out, that's a pretty sure bet that the enemy players haven't fallen for their trap. Moreover, the tower runner would have to leave the comfort zone of their tower and fight the group on their own ground to stop the siege. Siege utterly flips the terms of the engagement from a mano a mano fight of "skill" to a group performing group tactics properly.
It's an AvAvA zone. Individual skill sometimes trumps numbers, but Numbers + Group Tactics almost always trumps individual skill unless you are exceptionally good. And most tower runners are only exceptionally good at fighting disorganized groups who chase, not groups who wisely refuse to take the bait.
Edited: autocorrect ate some words.
Who was talking about towers. People put up sieges everywhere, not just in towers after failing to chase. Literally in a keep courtyard in your face. That's definetely ridicolous. Also Siege literally beats group tactics 90 % of the time. Like what game are you even playing.
The OP first brought up towers as one example of a place where siege is used. And the person I was replying to was literally talking about being chased around a tower by a group + siege...so that who's talking about towers.
Question for you: What's ridiculous about players using siege weapons to defend their own keep?
its ridicolous when siege is a better response for combat in general, than skills and sets. And again it doesnt matter where you are, you could be in the middle of nowhere in cyro and they would pull out a siege.2 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheMightyRevan wrote: »its ridicolous when siege is a better response for combat in general, than skills and sets. And again it doesnt matter where you are, you could be in the middle of nowhere in cyro and they would pull out a siege.
With the current meta being groups of tank builds with 40K+ health bars and countless stacks of healing, sometimes the best option is to throw down siege and put some meatbags or cold fire into the group to help break it up. Your option is to either overrun the siege and force the user to get off, or to simply leave the range of the siege and force the user to pack up and relocate. All of the complaints keep boiling down to people not liking the fact that they can't just adapt, improvise, and overcome and would rather just see yet another nerf.
12 -
nuttytom✭✭✭✭TheMightyRevan wrote: »its ridicolous when siege is a better response for combat in general, than skills and sets. And again it doesnt matter where you are, you could be in the middle of nowhere in cyro and they would pull out a siege.
With the current meta being groups of tank builds with 40K+ health bars and countless stacks of healing, sometimes the best option is to throw down siege and put some meatbags or cold fire into the group to help break it up. Your option is to either overrun the siege and force the user to get off, or to simply leave the range of the siege and force the user to pack up and relocate. All of the complaints keep boiling down to people not liking the fact that they can't just adapt, improvise, and overcome and would rather just see yet another nerf.
literally not the reason for complaining but ok. If you cant see that siege is a problem with the damage it does to players then i dont know what to tell you. Maybe you should try fighting outnumbered and see how you manage the 10+ sieges on you at all times whereas the players literally use none of their own skills to fight you. Such fun and skilled gameplay there.1 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭@nuttytom Show a video where there is more siege being shot at you than there are of you. In other words-- if your group is 5 strong I want to see 6 siege being shot at you. If you are 12 strong I want to see 13 siege being shot at you. If you're solo I want to see at least 2 siege being shot at you.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 23 January 2023 17:145 -
nuttytom✭✭✭✭@nuttytom Show a video where there is more siege being shot at you than there are of you. In other words-- if your group is 5 strong I want to see 6 siege being shot at you. If you are 12 strong I want to see 13 siege being shot at you. If you're solo I want to see at least 2 siege being shot at you.
[snip]
you can literally just go to cyrodiil yourself, get some fun outnumbered fights and witness it happen.
alternatively you can run in a zerg yourself and watch insane amounts of siege being shot at a small group.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 23 January 2023 17:140 -
nuttytom✭✭✭✭@nuttytom Show a video where there is more siege being shot at you than there are of you. In other words-- if your group is 5 strong I want to see 6 siege being shot at you. If you are 12 strong I want to see 13 siege being shot at you. If you're solo I want to see at least 2 siege being shot at you.
[snip]
why would i lie about this? Tell you what, next time i go into pvp i will take some screenshots for you. can get a lot of proof for you in just one evening of cyrodiil.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 23 January 2023 17:140 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭A video will be a lot more helpful than screenshots.
But listen, thanks for accepting the challenge in good spirit.
I don't mean to be a jerk but Ive been PvPing for a long time and I haven't seen or experienced this-- not of the magnitude you're describing. So unfortunately it will take a video. And then I will apologize to you and stop interfering with your movement here.
But the video has to be "right," if you know what I mean, so try to take a good one.1
