Just nerf crow already

fmseries

just nerf toll and poll to 5gold cost so that there's no more no-brain crow guys combine with red eagle as their 2nd patron. They are just too strong as first cards appearing after patron choice

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Crow is therefore the nail that sticks out. And if Crow isn't that powerful, but Rajhin playing at it's maximum couldn't beat Crow, then your statement of Rajhin being overwhelming is negated. In this case it obviously wasn't overwhelming enough.

Rahjiin is the deck that makes opponents discard cards, for the most part.

Rahjiin was not beaten by crow. It was built by a crow setup to do combos using 2 other decks (red eagle and psijic). Needing 3 decks to beat one deck does not indicate that any of 3 decks are the problem.

I list all of those out so that we can think of the powerful things that each deck is capable of.

No. Because those statements don't tell what the other decks are capable of. Each deck has it's a own unique thing. No other deck draws as much as crow. But, what sounds more impactful.

No other deck has as many taunts as Pelin?

Or

Crow doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin
Rahjiin doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin
Druid doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin
Almalexia doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin

Etc. Etc. The repetition makes the unique feature seem more powerful. But every deck is unique and has something they offer that makes them standout compared to the other decks.

What determines whether or not something is too powerful is counterplay and power budget.

The major counter play to Crow is to try and be the person that ends up with more Crow cards.

No. The major counterplay against crow is to rush power before the deck gets a chance to burst an opponent down. This can be accomplished in a variety of ways by a variety of decks.

Regarding Rajhin you are just privileging your own logic in an arbitrary fashion. I am saying that the game was essentially Rajhin versus Crow. I gave the context that both decks had used Eagle and Psijic which are support cards for a primary strategy. You then go on to say that Crow for some reason counts as 3 decks but Rajhin counts as a single deck. You aren't being consistent with yourself.

You are also forgetting the context of my example by saying that other decks have unique properties. Just because other decks have unique properties, that has nothing to do with how well they perform in the most grueling situations. Having taunts will not get players out of a discard 4 and destroy a bunch of agents scenario. A bunch of Crow draw cards that are easy to string together.

Answer what other combination of decks, besides crow, can fight out of the situation. There isn't one = the other unique properties of the classes are simply lesser than the unique properties of Crow.

spartaxoxo

Personofsecrets wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Crow is therefore the nail that sticks out. And if Crow isn't that powerful, but Rajhin playing at it's maximum couldn't beat Crow, then your statement of Rajhin being overwhelming is negated. In this case it obviously wasn't overwhelming enough.

Rahjiin is the deck that makes opponents discard cards, for the most part.

Rahjiin was not beaten by crow. It was built by a crow setup to do combos using 2 other decks (red eagle and psijic). Needing 3 decks to beat one deck does not indicate that any of 3 decks are the problem.

I list all of those out so that we can think of the powerful things that each deck is capable of.

No. Because those statements don't tell what the other decks are capable of. Each deck has it's a own unique thing. No other deck draws as much as crow. But, what sounds more impactful.

No other deck has as many taunts as Pelin?

Or

Crow doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin
Rahjiin doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin
Druid doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin
Almalexia doesn't have as many taunts as Pelin

Etc. Etc. The repetition makes the unique feature seem more powerful. But every deck is unique and has something they offer that makes them standout compared to the other decks.

What determines whether or not something is too powerful is counterplay and power budget.

The major counter play to Crow is to try and be the person that ends up with more Crow cards.

No. The major counterplay against crow is to rush power before the deck gets a chance to burst an opponent down. This can be accomplished in a variety of ways by a variety of decks.

Regarding Rajhin you are just privileging your own logic in an arbitrary fashion. I am saying that the game was essentially Rajhin versus Crow. I gave the context that both decks had used Eagle and Psijic which are support cards for a primary strategy. You then go on to say that Crow for some reason counts as 3 decks but Rajhin counts as a single deck. You aren't being consistent with yourself.

No. I am saying that based off your description of events (I was not in that game so it's not reasonable for me to take into account anything not stated) that the enemies primary strategy was to use the Rahjiin agents to chip away your prestige, spam you with bewilderment, and make you discard cards pretty much every turn. Those are all characteristics of the Rahjiin deck. So, the primary strategy as described was to play the orange cards.

I also revised my opinion to reconsider black when you mentioned that Red Eagle was also central to their strategy because Red Eagle allowing decks to spam powerful effects that are normally balanced around not being spammed is central support to its support. And it perhaps does it too well.

You said that your primary strategy was to just play purple. But the key moments you describe were that you used dreaming cave to setup combos, and also Red Eagle to get rid of bewilderment cards. And that thanks to these setups even though the opponent made you discard most of your hand constantly, you were able to just draw more cards each turn and still consistently kill their agents.

To me that description reads that bewilderment spam and discards were seriously hampering your ability to play. You even noted another deck couldn't have worked, only Crow. The thing that stopped this was the combination of ridding yourself of the bewilderments that would have prevented the crow combos on their own, and the Crows draw effect constantly replenishing your hand despite the bewilderments and discards.

Since crow would have effectively been countered without the support decks, which were essential to setting up your crow combos, I considered it an essential part of your strategy despite you not feeling the same.

Hence 3 decks were used to counter 1 deck. Where we differ is in the way we consider when a support deck is crucial to a strategy. I hope that this helps to understand my pov better. It's not arbitrary.

Answer what other combination of decks, besides crow, can fight out of the situation. There isn't one = the other unique properties of the classes are simply lesser than the unique properties of Crow.

None. Because Rahjiin is too strong. It's not because they are lesser but because of the unique properties of crow being direct counterplay to Rahjiin. And even then crow requires the help of other decks to pull this off because bewilderment spam breaks up crows combos.

Meanwhile, if I look at someone else getting most of the good crow cards, I have had to play against that a lot. And I prevail a decent amount of time using a variety of strategies. I do admit I run into strong crow more often than strong Rahjiin. But, my ability to win versus strong crow is much more varied than Rahjiin. I can only think of 1 strategy that beats strong Rahjiin . A crow deck that is getting heavy support from support decks to rid itself of the combo cards. If crow user can't rid themselves of those bewilderments, there is nothing even crow can do. Which is why it's a popular opinion that Rahjiin counters crow rather than the other way around.

I've also never had a 30 minute crow match, so even if I can't win I'm out of the misery faster.

But this will be my last post on that match as this thread is about Crow, and reading that match only highlights the problems with Rahjiin for me. I just wanted to explain so it seemed less arbitrary.

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hence 3 decks were used to counter 1 deck.

You are still arbitrarily priviliging your own logic. Rajhin used Eagle too as you pointed out. Rajhin also used a Dreaming Cave which was fairly important and I had pointed that out earlier.

That is why I consider the matchup to have been Rajhin versus Crow. Both decks used the same tools other than Rajhin cards in the Rajhin user case or Crow cards in the Crow user case. So the strengths of these added cards are cancelled out and we are left with the merits of Rajhin versus Crow. Ironically enough, if the Rajhin player had just purchased Oratory or Pilfer when they had a chance, then that would have been ample counterplay to stop me from getting above them. Instead, they focussed on their Rajhin synergies.

We seem to agree that Crow did rediculous things during the game. So what is the point really? That Crow can use cards from other classes? Don't you see how any deck can benefit by the addition of cards from other classes? For example, all decks can get a huge boost from Dreaming Cave no matter which deck they are.

I see no evidence contrary to the idea that Crow is uniquely powerful due to the opportunities that it can create in the end game with even severely limited cards. That is just one way that Crow is powerful. At this point, I'm done with this conversation since I don't desire to risk breaking forum rules by having a back and forth. You are, of course, welcome to respond further. Thank you for the discussion.

spartaxoxo

Personofsecrets wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hence 3 decks were used to counter 1 deck.

You are still arbitrarily priviliging your own logic. Rajhin used Eagle too as you pointed out. Rajhin also used a Dreaming Cave which was fairly important and I had pointed that out earlier.

Dreaming Cave was not described as important to Rahjiin plays earlier. It was mentioned in passing but no key plays were described. This is a difference between playing a match and hearing a description later.

Don't you see how any deck can benefit by the addition of cards from other classes? For example, all decks can get a huge boost from Dreaming Cave no matter which deck they are.

Yes. Which is why I mentioned that Red Eagle is also too strong. Red Eagle exacerbates the problems of all decks, not just crow. It's most obvious with crow because of all the drawing. But, there are several cards balanced on them not popping up constantly and Red Eagle negates that balancing.

If some of Red Eagle's cards were more expensive, you couldn't do something like make a writ and get rid of a card on the same turn. It's pretty easy for crow to hit 7 coins, and then they get rid of a card and pick another crow card.

IMO Red Eagle's 3 coin contract cards should be 4-5 coins. And it's contract agent should be 7.

Yniro

I agree that there should be limits on the number of cards you can pull, imprisonment, and the number of agents.

WitchyKiki

This discussion is still alive and further shows that the sentiment is shared amongst the majority.

birdmann1230

Just posting again to reiterate how ridiculous it is that a player can more than double their prestige to well over 40 with one patron hit and leave the opponent no chance to combat it. Tired of losing to those no-skill crap. I’m all for having an easy deck available for new players but it’s a lazy way out for everyone else in the ranked queue.

bulbousb16_ESO

Crow doesn't need a nerf because the people playing Crow are often brain-dead. Many times, I have been up against a Crow player that has just pulled off a massive combo and racked up a ton of coin. All they have to do is turn Crow and the game will end in me getting slaughtered. But instead, they blow all the coin on cards (more Crow?) and I end up winning. In stunned silence.

spartaxoxo

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Crow doesn't need a nerf because the people playing Crow are often brain-dead. Many times, I have been up against a Crow player that has just pulled off a massive combo and racked up a ton of coin. All they have to do is turn Crow and the game will end in me getting slaughtered. But instead, they blow all the coin on cards (more Crow?) and I end up winning. In stunned silence.

I've won against so many crow users who have massively squandered big early leads.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Crow doesn't need a nerf because the people playing Crow are often brain-dead. Many times, I have been up against a Crow player that has just pulled off a massive combo and racked up a ton of coin. All they have to do is turn Crow and the game will end in me getting slaughtered. But instead, they blow all the coin on cards (more Crow?) and I end up winning. In stunned silence.

I've won against so many crow users who have massively squandered big early leads.

My favorite are the redeagle/crow spammers that will continue to press red eagle patron to their own detriment and lose. Its like they have an unhealthy addiction to drawing cards.