Just nerf crow already

WitchyKiki

Bat wrote: »

This deck and the Orgnum deck are the worst decks, both lack finesse, both are tedious, both make for extremely boring matches.

And this is why I love to pick them, because people tend to think of them as the enemy and never really figure out how to weaponize them. Personally, I used to think the same as you do, now I have gained a different perspective on them.

AnduinTryggva

This is well known but it has the fun-killing side effect that you are forced to play a strat that you initially did not want to play.

For a well-designed game it should just be possible to have a valid and working counter-strategy and the effectiveness of it just boils down to how well you can deploy this strategy (based on your skill and some tavern luck).

AnduinTryggva

When will crow be nerfed? It is AT LEAST as worse as Orgnum.

One is patron spam, the other is card spam. Nothing else. It's the same [snip] strategy.

[edited for minor baiting]

Melzo

Crow is a rather unfair deck of cards. You cannot be sure that you will be able to pull it out. When the enemy takes the crow, you get a different kind of card. And when you take what seemed like good cards, the enemy gets only crows. Ravens provide a lot of strength and gold, but they also allow you to use absolutely the entire deck. If you do not win at the beginning of the game, then you will absolutely lose to the opponent if he took a lot of crows. Crow allows you to combine with any other deck. If you have more than 30 percent of the deck is crows, then you can play the entire deck every turn and use very expensive cards.

It's useless to argue over a deck of cards. This game is too gambling. And if you have roughly the same skill of the game, then you can overwhelmingly defeat the enemy just because you are lucky. And I doubt that the developers care about some kind of balance there ...

NeKryXe

I don't find any deck unfair, because both players can use them. The only problem I have with Crows is the insane boredom it causes. When I'm on the losing side, I just spend most matches doing something else while I wait 90 seconds of spamming on every turn, and when I'm the one spamming crows trash I feel bad and not worthy of winning because of how easy it is.

Anyway, as I don't like Crows or Orgnum, I never select any of these decks. But the fact is that at least 80% of players choose Crows in ranked games, and you all know I'm not exaggerating. Crows and Orgnum, are the two decks that I find the most boring, but they are also the two favorite decks of most players. At first I thought those were the losers' decks, but that's not it at all... most of the top ranked players are Crows or Orgnum spammers. So... the reality is that we are a tiny minority that don't like these decks. It seems risky for Zos to change something that the majority clearly love. And most importantly, for those who enjoy ToT is to preserve or increase the number of players.

But there's one thing I think they could consider without changing the way Crows plays: a price per combo... that would shave a few seconds off a player's available time for each combo. This would make you rethink the excess of combos and reduce the waiting time in moments of pure spamming.

rbfrgsp

NeKryXe wrote: »

I don't find any deck unfair, because both players can use them.

^^this. The design of the game means that no deck unbalances the game, as you can always buy from your opponent's chosen deck.

I think what most people find distasteful about Crow is it seems like a total noob deck to use. The cards themselves don't generate a great deal of power. But they become beneficial when they enable you to draw another card which is powerful. And, with drawing being RNG, it means that crow's main strength is exploiting RNG. So I see why people criticise its use. It is a bit of a crutch.

IncultaWolf

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

NeKryXe

IncultaWolf wrote: »

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

What???? Buffing Orgnum more? It's already the dumbest deck... Looks like they really want to kill ToT.

WitchyKiki

IncultaWolf wrote: »

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

Oh no.
Anyways.

rbfrgsp

IncultaWolf wrote: »

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

Do you have any specifics? I deinstalled pts

IncultaWolf

Sorceror-King Orgnum
Storm Shark Wavecaller: Increased Power of base effect from 1 to 2.
Serpentguard Rider: Added +1 Power to Combo 2.

Duke of Crows
Pilfer:
Increased the cost from 5 to 6.
Moved Combo 2 Draw to Combo 3.
Plunder: Moved Combo 2 Draw to Combo 3.

rbfrgsp wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

Do you have any specifics? I deinstalled pts

Personofsecrets

The nerfs are good, but not enough. Both Tolls should cost 5.

rbfrgsp

That will be interesting. Will definitely disincentivise buying crow early game if you need three cards across the board to activate any kind of worthwhile draw chain.

Jusey1

NeKryXe wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

What???? Buffing Orgnum more? It's already the dumbest deck... Looks like they really want to kill ToT.

They're buffing the cards, not the patreon. Orgnum's problem is the patreon, not the deck of cards.

WitchyKiki

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The nerfs are good, but not enough. Both Tolls should cost 5.

I was gonna say this lol

spartaxoxo

The nerfs are already pretty big. 3 card combos are much harder to come by in early game.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The nerfs are already pretty big. 3 card combos are much harder to come by in early game.

If they make them more expensive at the very least, you will get less successful red eagle/crow spammers since they will need the gold in order to be able to purchase crow.

spartaxoxo

WitchyKiki wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The nerfs are already pretty big. 3 card combos are much harder to come by in early game.

If they make them more expensive at the very least, you will get less successful red eagle/crow spammers since they will need the gold in order to be able to purchase crow.

The idea was to nerf it not kill it. Pilfer already got a cost increase. And they both went to combo 3. That's a big change.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The nerfs are already pretty big. 3 card combos are much harder to come by in early game.

If they make them more expensive at the very least, you will get less successful red eagle/crow spammers since they will need the gold in order to be able to purchase crow.

The idea was to nerf it not kill it. Pilfer already got a cost increase. And they both went to combo 3. That's a big change.

lol yes I just want it killed, lets see if these nerfs do help balance it out and not become so problematic. I sure hope so.

AndreNoir

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

AnduinTryggva

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Sorceror-King Orgnum
Storm Shark Wavecaller: Increased Power of base effect from 1 to 2.
Serpentguard Rider: Added +1 Power to Combo 2.

Duke of Crows
Pilfer:
Increased the cost from 5 to 6.
Moved Combo 2 Draw to Combo 3.
Plunder: Moved Combo 2 Draw to Combo 3.

rbfrgsp wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

They are nerfing crow cards on the pts, which was needed, and buffing orgnum haha

Do you have any specifics? I deinstalled pts

All these changes seem at the moment fine.

The crow nerf does not alter its mechanics just increases the minimum requirement.

And the buff of Orgnum applies to the cards making them maybe more interesting than the patron. However I still think the patron could get a nerf still.

AnduinTryggva

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

WitchyKiki

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

Oh darn, this is a great idea. In reality Crow is just too OP with red eagle. If Crow generated prestige instead of power, there would be much less spam and chances for the other player to continue to draw their whole deck.

AndreNoir

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

The only difference would be is that crow wouldn't be able to wipe an opponent agents and use patrons: Hunding, Pelin, Druid and Reachman without investments to other decks

spartaxoxo

AndreNoir wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

The only difference would be is that crow wouldn't be able to wipe an opponent agents and use patrons: Hunding, Pelin, Druid and Reachman without investments to other decks

Taunts would also no longer work as counterplay to crow spam, which would weaken Pelin as a counter to Crow.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

The only difference would be is that crow wouldn't be able to wipe an opponent agents and use patrons: Hunding, Pelin, Druid and Reachman without investments to other decks

Taunts would also no longer work as counterplay to crow spam, which would weaken Pelin as a counter to Crow.

^ also a good point, hadn't thought of this.

AndreNoir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

The only difference would be is that crow wouldn't be able to wipe an opponent agents and use patrons: Hunding, Pelin, Druid and Reachman without investments to other decks

Taunts would also no longer work as counterplay to crow spam, which would weaken Pelin as a counter to Crow.

I have no Idea how you gonna counter crow spam as Pelin's 7,9 taunts if the most problematic crow's cards are 4, 5 and 6. And the main problem of deck itself is draw and huge power+gold generation.
On PTS they changed 6 and 5 to longer combo but consider it like this: crow plays any card + Pool of Shadow or Claw and always can draw another card (by reachman) for combo because crow patron hasn't any use with own deck until very end.
Typical crow play: get some 4 draw card and start spam. When you got a 2 in a hand - you draw next, take another crow card from tavern (they are cheap) or draw card, if u are unlucky - use reachman patron because you almost always have some power. And if crow a bit lucky it will get a treasure card in tavern and since a gold is not a problem for this deck you will know that it will be another reachman tap. On certain step it's just a full deck recycle since there always opportunity to tap reachman coupled with extremely cheap removal of undesired cards in deck. Power is a reason why Rajin works poorly against crow: there not much agents but a lot of power for removal early shadows wich needed for Rajin combo

AnduinTryggva

AndreNoir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

The only difference would be is that crow wouldn't be able to wipe an opponent agents and use patrons: Hunding, Pelin, Druid and Reachman without investments to other decks

Taunts would also no longer work as counterplay to crow spam, which would weaken Pelin as a counter to Crow.

I have no Idea how you gonna counter crow spam as Pelin's 7,9 taunts if the most problematic crow's cards are 4, 5 and 6. And the main problem of deck itself is draw and huge power+gold generation.
On PTS they changed 6 and 5 to longer combo but consider it like this: crow plays any card + Pool of Shadow or Claw and always can draw another card (by reachman) for combo because crow patron hasn't any use with own deck until very end.
Typical crow play: get some 4 draw card and start spam. When you got a 2 in a hand - you draw next, take another crow card from tavern (they are cheap) or draw card, if u are unlucky - use reachman patron because you almost always have some power. And if crow a bit lucky it will get a treasure card in tavern and since a gold is not a problem for this deck you will know that it will be another reachman tap. On certain step it's just a full deck recycle since there always opportunity to tap reachman coupled with extremely cheap removal of undesired cards in deck. Power is a reason why Rajin works poorly against crow: there not much agents but a lot of power for removal early shadows wich needed for Rajin combo

I fully agree. As Crow is currently on the server the only really working strat against Crow is to spam Crow oneself. (Same goes for Orgnum). I will see how the nerf will work when Necrom reaches the servers. The problem is not the mechanics idea behind it, just the low threshold for popping its benefits.

spartaxoxo

AndreNoir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I was thinking a lot about crow deck... and you know what confuse me the most ? Why the hell it able to generate raw power so easy if not at all ? Hlaalu deck has no access to power so he should invest in power cards if he wish to use a patrons like Reachman or Pelin, Orgnum has pretty low and hard generation of both - gold and power.
And here the crow that can put 4 gold card mainly for a combo extending yet got more raw power than most expensive psijic cards.
My solution: change power on all crow cards to prestige. May be except Blackfeather Knight and 3 row combo of Murder of Crows.
This will prevent Reachman patron spam, endless tavern refresh and immortal agents

WHOOOT? You want direct prestige gain for Crow? This would make it even more powerful and your opponent would be forced to pick rajin to stand a decent chance at all.

If so power output of Crow should be much reduced.

The only difference would be is that crow wouldn't be able to wipe an opponent agents and use patrons: Hunding, Pelin, Druid and Reachman without investments to other decks

Taunts would also no longer work as counterplay to crow spam, which would weaken Pelin as a counter to Crow.

I have no Idea how you gonna counter crow spam as Pelin's 7,9 taunts if the most problematic crow's cards are 4, 5 and 6.

You don't need to soak up all the power, you just need your own power to outpace their power. If you soaked up most of their power while managing big gains yourself, then you'll win. I win more often than not against crows because I take the black cards they always pair with it for myself, rush up my power, and keep my taunts up as often as I can. I have found luck pairing with DK personally.

kyatos_binarini

Delmene Hlaalu and Rajhin can help you.
Delmene: just buy every purple card you see (Hlaalu deck gives you opportunity to easily buy whatever you want) and feed them to the patron (or keep to yourself).
Rajhin: spamming of this patron preventing opponent from stacking cards. still can be counter played with Celarus/Hunding cards.

If both of these decks in the game be sure to buy "Currency Exchange" from Hlaalu deck to use Rajhin patron multiple times (or even win the game with 4 patrons favor)