stamplar nerfed again why?

HiImRex

Templar

Dawn’s Wrath

Backlash: This ability and its morphs have been slightly reworked.
The final damage now deals a guaranteed amount of damage based on your highest offensive stats, rather than dealing damage based on the damage it took from you over the duration and with a cap based on your Weapon or Spell Damage.

The final damage deals approximately 10% more damage than the initial hit at base and increases up to an additional 200% to reach similar values of power seen before.

The final damage now takes more overall damage to reach, to make the payout less reliably reached in PvP scenarios.

These abilities are now once again limited to having one active at a time, to fix numerous exploits and bugs with the ability. This means if you cast the ability on another target while it is active, it will remove the previous cast.

...

honestly curious to know why this happened, especially making it harder to charge up after the last round of nerfs

TechMaybeHic

Because they are hell bent that it takes 6 seconds to reach whip damage that can happen every 3, and want you to really have to work for it.

Probably with reasoning that you can't block or dodge the explosion

Firstmep

Templar is still in a decent spot in pvp, I would like them fix some of the hitbox issues with the new jabs tho.
I think this change to backlash is fine, although I will have to see the numbers add up.
The issue with backlash in pvp, is that if you are playing without a purge it's basically almost impossible to counter it.
A smart templar will line up their burst just before this pops, and you can try to dodge or block when it happens, but we have tools to deal with both.
We will have to see how the numbers turn out for sure.

MashmalloMan

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Because they are hell bent that it takes 6 seconds to reach whip damage that can happen every 3, and want you to really have to work for it.

Probably with reasoning that you can't block or dodge the explosion

Would do wonders for Sorc's burst..** cries in shame of U35/U36 **

Billium813

TEMPLAR CHANGES

Templar

• Dawn’s Wrath
  • Backlash: This ability and its morphs have been slightly reworked.
    • The final damage now deals a guaranteed amount of damage based on your highest offensive stats, rather than dealing damage based on the damage it took from you over the duration and with a cap based on your Weapon or Spell Damage.
    • The final damage deals approximately 10% more damage than the initial hit at base and increases up to an additional 200% to reach similar values of power seen before.
    • The final damage now takes more overall damage to reach, to make the payout less reliably reached in PvP scenarios.
    • These abilities are now once again limited to having one active at a time, to fix numerous exploits and bugs with the ability. This means if you cast the ability on another target while it is active, it will remove the previous cast.
      • Power of the Light (morph): Increased the duration of Minor Breach from this morph to 7-10 seconds, up from 6-9. This effect is also no longer tracked over the base ability with the Ability Timers option enabled, to help you keep track of the core ability instead.

The final damage now deals a guaranteed amount of damage based on your highest offensive stats, rather than dealing damage based on the damage it took from you over the duration

The final damage now takes more overall damage to reach, to make the payout less reliably reached in PvP scenarios.

1) I'm a bit confused.
Perhaps I don't understand, but it seems like these are contradictory statements. Is the final damage guaranteed or does it still require damage to reach?
I assume the former point is just poorly worded and that the maximum the final damage can deal now scales based on your highest offensive stats. TBH, it was never even moderately difficult in PvE to reach the max damage. For PvP, it might hurt the burst potential, but we shall see with testing.

Power of the Light (morph): Increased the duration of Minor Breach from this morph to 7-10 seconds, up from 6-9. This effect is also no longer tracked over the base ability with the Ability Timers option enabled, to help you keep track of the core ability instead.

2) I like the increase in Minor Breach. Specifically, I like the buff to duration BECAUSE at 10 seconds, it is now exactly 1/2 of the Dawns Wrath passive Illuminate, which grants Minor Sorcery for 20 seconds. To be honest, I mainly run Power of the Light for the Minor Breach and Illuminate proc.
With that in mind, I would personally like to see the visual beam of light portion also extended in duration, to match the Minor Breach debuff. I feel it makes more visual sense for the enemy to be breached WHILE the light is on them. It also increases accessibility for players as there is a visual queue for players to KNOW if their debuff is active! Small changes like having buffs/debuffs matching skill durations go a LONG way to making your game FEEL better to play.

These abilities are now once again limited to having one active at a time, to fix numerous exploits and bugs with the ability. This means if you cast the ability on another target while it is active, it will remove the previous cast.

3) Does this mean the Minor Breach debuff will be removed from the previous target if switched? Currently, doesn't switching targets remove the beam of light visually to the new target? Does switching targets cut the effect short (dealing a percentage of damage) or just remove the final damage wholesale?

MashmalloMan

@Billium813 Guaranteed, where as before, it was based on damage done. They basically added a minimum value that happens to be 10% more than the first tick. You can then increase that value by 200% more based on damage dealt, but it's harder to hit that cap.

Basically, less variance, less risk, while making it harder to nuke people without the added effort of burning that target in the 6s window. It's probably still easy to hit that cap in PVE since you're doing insane DPS values nowadays.

When you place it on a new target, you're cancelling the first cast, it won't prematurely explode. This is how Daedric Prey and Haunting Curse work for Sorc, which is probably where these balance decisions came from.

Minor Breach will apply to each target for 10s, it doesn't get removed when you transfer targets.

This is with 29579 stamina and 5514 damage:

K9002

Billium813 wrote: »

1) I'm a bit confused.
Perhaps I don't understand, but it seems like these are contradictory statements. Is the final damage guaranteed or does it still require damage to reach?
I assume the former point is just poorly worded and that the maximum the final damage can deal now scales based on your highest offensive stats. TBH, it was never even moderately difficult in PvE to reach the max damage. For PvP, it might hurt the burst potential, but we shall see with testing.

There's no contradiction. The tooltip damage is guaranteed damage even if you don't cause any further damage to the target, it works similar to Daedric Curse now. And that final detonation can be increased by up to 200% by attacking the target. It's a bit like execute scaling, tooltip shows you the lowest value + potential multiplier.

The thing that concerns me is that the math doesn't add up. The initial hit scales with both stam/mag + weapon/spell damage, so the claim that final hit deals ~10% more damage while scaling only with w/s damage is nonsense to begin with.



That 10% increase from initial hit would be 5822. Once it's scaled up to the maximum of 200% we get 11,644 damage on the final hit. And that's not even near the explosion power we have on live now. Looks like Templars were just hit with another nerf.

Militan1404

Yeah its a nerf disguised as buff plan and simple as that.

MashmalloMan

K9002 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

1) I'm a bit confused.
Perhaps I don't understand, but it seems like these are contradictory statements. Is the final damage guaranteed or does it still require damage to reach?
I assume the former point is just poorly worded and that the maximum the final damage can deal now scales based on your highest offensive stats. TBH, it was never even moderately difficult in PvE to reach the max damage. For PvP, it might hurt the burst potential, but we shall see with testing.

The thing that concerns me is that the math doesn't add up. The initial hit scales with both stam/mag + weapon/spell damage, so the claim that final hit deals ~10% more damage while scaling only with w/s damage is nonsense to begin with.

The entire skill hybrid scales now. That means the initial tick AND the final tick will copy your highest offensive stats. Max stam or Max mag, weapon or spell crit, and weapon or spell penetration.

K9002 wrote: »

That 10% increase from initial hit would be 5822. Once it's scaled up to the maximum of 200% we get 11,644 damage on the final hit. And that's not even near the explosion power we have on live now. Looks like Templars were just hit with another nerf.

100% more damage is double, 200% more damage is tripple. You miscalculated. Your 5822 would be 17466, not 11644.

Using same stats from PTS/Live:

29579 stamina
5514 weapon damage

Live:
4594 + 17369

PTS:
4594 + (5084 x 3)
= 4594 + (15252)

With this example, it's about a 14% nerf.

Multiplier is closer to 10.7% on the first tick, almost 11%. It's still a bit of a nerf for most builds since you're more likely to stack spell/weapon damage to 6-8k and have a lower stam pool of 25-28k, which means on live, most of, if not all your investment is purely going towards the tooltip.

On PTS, the coeffiecent scaling between something hard to increase(resources) and something easy to increase(damage) is split which is likely the reason for the lower tooltip, but seems unintentional on ZOS's part.

My example is based on a lower damage pool and higher stamina pool than most PVP builds would use, so you're going to see a larger nerf on a more meta setup with damage stacking.

Yiko

MashmalloMan wrote: »

100% more damage is double, 200% more damage is tripple. You miscalculated. Your 5822 would be 17466, not 11644.

Using same stats from PTS/Live:

29579 stamina
5514 weapon damage

Live:
4594 + 17369

PTS:
4594 + (5084 x 3)
= 4594 + (15252)

With this example, it's about a 14% nerf.

Multiplier is closer to 10.7% on the first tick, almost 11%. It's still a bit of a nerf for most builds since you're more likely to stack spell/weapon damage to 6-8k and have a lower stam pool of 25-28k, which means on live, most of, if not all your investment is purely going towards the tooltip.

On PTS, the coeffiecent scaling between something hard to increase(resources) and something easy to increase(damage) is split which is likely the reason for the lower tooltip, but seems unintentional on ZOS's part.

My example is based on a lower damage pool and higher stamina pool than most PVP builds would use, so you're going to see a larger nerf on a more meta setup with damage stacking.

Can someone test the tooltips in a PvP environment? I know going from a PVE zone to a PVP zone on live results in like a 50% lower backlash tooltip, and I wonder if that’s still the case on PTS. This change initially seems like raising the skill floor while simultaneously making the spell weaker + harder to build up, but I’d like to see some numbers.

Zand3rs

I have been playing my Magplar as my main DD in pve for a few years and it really feels like we are gutted.
Its come to the point where it is not fun anymore seeing how far behind we are right now!

I struggle from times to find this game enjoyable, it takes so little these days to log off when compared to before where you actually wanted to keep playing...

Hotdog_23

Honestly POL should get major and minor Breach both. Afterall wardens get both on Deep Fissure and for each target hit and not just one.

Plus, I would have much rather they fixed the bugs/exploits instead of only able to have one active at a time. In certain situation this will limit a Stamplar overall damage output.

Stay safe

BahometZ

This change seems really unhelpful for PvE where you regularly have multiple targets to cast on, and after many years of playing with this skill a certain way it is going to be super difficult to unlearn. I understand that the breach will remain, but what about the healing aura from Purifying Light?

K9002

I'm waiting to see the new coefficients when the UESP database is updated. If the final hit scales with resource + damage instead of damage alone then it might not be that bad, IF the coefficients weren't nerfed into the ground. The live version is much better for medium armor damage stacking builds, while mag builds which naturally have 45k+ magicka suffer.

cro25519

It's about an 18% nerf to final hit.

gariondavey

Dang, zos really kicking templars when they are down
I thought this patch was going to help us out a bit after the almost universally hated visual changes + damage nerf to jabs/sweeps and burning light.
I was mistaken.

Meiox

I guess its less work for the server this way, since its a fixed value. It seems they change every skill which has a higher server workload to reduce the stress on the server

MashmalloMan

Yiko wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

100% more damage is double, 200% more damage is tripple. You miscalculated. Your 5822 would be 17466, not 11644.

Using same stats from PTS/Live:

29579 stamina
5514 weapon damage

Live:
4594 + 17369

PTS:
4594 + (5084 x 3)
= 4594 + (15252)

With this example, it's about a 14% nerf.

Multiplier is closer to 10.7% on the first tick, almost 11%. It's still a bit of a nerf for most builds since you're more likely to stack spell/weapon damage to 6-8k and have a lower stam pool of 25-28k, which means on live, most of, if not all your investment is purely going towards the tooltip.

On PTS, the coeffiecent scaling between something hard to increase(resources) and something easy to increase(damage) is split which is likely the reason for the lower tooltip, but seems unintentional on ZOS's part.

My example is based on a lower damage pool and higher stamina pool than most PVP builds would use, so you're going to see a larger nerf on a more meta setup with damage stacking.

On live, the copied damage gets further multiplied by 1.5 because of the additional 50% physical/magic damage. Did you take that into consideration?

Also can someone test the tooltips in a PvP environment? I know going from a PVE zone to a PVP zone on live results in like a 50% lower backlash tooltip, and I wonder if that’s still the case on PTS. This change initially seems like raising the skill floor while simultaneously making the spell weaker + harder to build up, but I’d like to see some numbers.

Huh? 50% physical/mag?

Are you talking about the stated 50% of copied damage? My math is entirely based off tooltips which state the maximum possible damage on the second tick, there is no such thing as 50% additional physical/mag damage. The 50% damage taken is how you get the second tick to reach that possible damage cap which is directly stated in the tooltip(live), no math necessary.

On PTS and in the notes, it doesn't state the rate at which the damage is copied, but we know it's lower. We can probably expect around 20%-30% based on the original value and the fact that they nerfed it. That just means it takes more damage to get the new 200% bonus which only really effects PVP since it's extremely easy to output 30% of 15k damage in a 6s window for pve.

MashmalloMan

cro25519 wrote: »

It's about an 18% nerf to final hit.

Yeah. Seeing around 14-18% myself. Weird that they claimed it's roughly the same, because it definitely isn't.

virtus753

MashmalloMan wrote: »

cro25519 wrote: »

It's about an 18% nerf to final hit.

Yeah. Seeing around 14-18% myself. Weird that they claimed it's roughly the same, because it definitely isn't.

This is the same way they said that “the level of challenge will be the same” when they nerfed our damage by 15-20% but only lowered enemy hp by 10%, or when they said ground DoTs will be between 10 and 15 seconds but left Ritual at 20+.

They state their goals and then implement things in a manner directly contradictory to their claims, leaving us with less and less hope that they will acknowledge these issues and address them.

@ZOS_GinaBruno A while back you asked what kind of communication we would like to see. Please ask the devs to be transparent about the fact that they’re nerfing a skill by double digits rather than claiming it will do the same damage as on live; ask them to acknowledge when they have neglected a skill that was clearly missed in the U35 week 3 static AoE duration reversion back on JULY 25; ask them to clarify why they have neglected stamplar’s pain points in favor of further nerfing it when it’s already just a pale imitation of magplar. Communication looks like respecting your player base by being honest about the actual impact of combat changes and responding (through skill changes and/or developer commentary) when implementation doesn’t match stated goals. It is not ok to claim you’re doing one thing but actually do another; it is not ok to ignore the plight of a class for ten+ weeks (stamplar is not alone in this); it is not ok, in the face of extreme pain points regarding class identity and power, to remain silent about those pain points while issuing further nerfs with a comment that does not accord with the actual changes. Please ask the developers for some sort of acknowledgment here, because we have had none whatsoever.

MashmalloMan

@virtus753 trust I know. I can add 10 examples for you myself, numerous tests show they don't actually use standards for cost/damage of skills or fix what they state they fix like Flurry/Jabs being dot/direct triggers.

I fight a lot for Sorc and Warden, but I'm fully aware of how abysmal the class identity feels for Stamplar in this game. In my opinion, it's the worst of the game and the reason I never bothered making an alt for them. Magplar just feels like a better version of them in every way unless you happen to enjoy the green bar or medium armor, which can be used on mag now anyhow.

Sad to see a nerf without actual reasoning behind it. If they wanted to nerf it because it was too bursty, own up to it, but they stated it's suppose to be roughly the same. A nerf of 15-20% is not the same.

gariondavey

virtus753 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

cro25519 wrote: »

It's about an 18% nerf to final hit.

Yeah. Seeing around 14-18% myself. Weird that they claimed it's roughly the same, because it definitely isn't.

This is the same way they said that “the level of challenge will be the same” when they nerfed our damage by 15-20% but only lowered enemy hp by 10%, or when they said ground DoTs will be between 10 and 15 seconds but left Ritual at 20+.

They state their goals and then implement things in a manner directly contradictory to their claims, leaving us with less and less hope that they will acknowledge these issues and address them.

@ZOS_GinaBruno A while back you asked what kind of communication we would like to see. Please ask the devs to be transparent about the fact that they’re nerfing a skill by double digits rather than claiming it will do the same damage as on live; ask them to acknowledge when they have neglected a skill that was clearly missed in the U35 week 3 static AoE duration reversion back on JULY 25; ask them to clarify why they have neglected stamplar’s pain points in favor of further nerfing it when it’s already just a pale imitation of magplar. Communication looks like respecting your player base by being honest about the actual impact of combat changes and responding (through skill changes and/or developer commentary) when implementation doesn’t match stated goals. It is not ok to claim you’re doing one thing but actually do another; it is not ok to ignore the plight of a class for ten+ weeks (stamplar is not alone in this); it is not ok, in the face of extreme pain points regarding class identity and power, to remain silent about those pain points while issuing further nerfs with a comment that does not accord with the actual changes. Please ask the developers for some sort of acknowledgment here, because we have had none whatsoever.

@ZOS_GinaBruno could you please confirm that you are aware of the concerns raised in this thread?

LordRukia

Finally, a change every templar in the game has been begging for.. nah I'm jk

Zand3rs

I am about to loose faith in this game, i dont want to but when playing mainly pve with my templar i see all the pvp changes they do really make a dent into my play on pve. I still do not understand why they keep doing this. There are other ways of limiting dmg from classes in pvp that doesent mean breaking classes in pve.

I should not be forced to change class and play something i dont like just to be able to compete with my friends. Thats not what a game should be like.

Sure i agree with the fact that i did less dmg if i had something unique that boosed the whole group in a way that made my dmg matter less but now Templars are just a dead class.

Its a shame, i love mine.

MashmalloMan

This just reminds me of the hilariously disconnected dev comments for the Morrowind patch notes.

"This is a buff if you have less than 24k max resource and 4k damage"

So... It's a nerf for anyone with complete sets?

renne

I haven't played at all since U35 dropped and since it looks like they're just gutting templars further in U36 this gives me zero inclination to come back.

Nerfs and only being able to cast it on one enemy, while they pretend this is a buff and we should be thankful for the scraps?

Nah, I'm good, thanks.

James-Wayne

Even getting the 200% cap the damage is lower then on Live so its very big nerf especially seeing its only one target.

[snip] are you doing ZOS. I hope you have some kind of new combat system to make up for all the heavy damage nerfs this year.

[edited for profanity bypass]

K9002

New UESP coefficients are in. The final explosion scales with a mix of highest resource and power. This is a slight buff to magplar and a nerf to stamplar or hybrid builds that don't put 64 points in an attribute. Same magicka and spell power as in my earlier post. The final damage went up to a maximum of 17,571.

taugrim

K9002 wrote: »

New UESP coefficients are in. The final explosion scales with a mix of highest resource and power. This is a slight buff to magplar and a nerf to stamplar or hybrid builds that don't put 64 points in an attribute. Same magicka and spell power as in my earlier post. The final damage went up to a maximum of 17,571.

Link to skill calculator for Power of the Light:
http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?id=27587&level=66&health=20000&magicka=20000&stamina=20000&spelldamage=2000&weapondamage=2000&version=36pts

P.S. am I in the minority by running Purifying Light for PVP on Stamplar? Templar as a class scales with Spell Damage due to the Minor Sorcery passive. I do miss Minor Breach on PotL but the HoT from PL is useful.

Here's Purifying Light on Live for me (24k Stam, 6.5k SD), backend damage: 20,473
http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?id=27558&level=66&health=20000&magicka=20000&stamina=24000&spelldamage=6500&weapondamage=2000&version=35

Here's Purifying Light on Live for me (24k Stam, 6.5k SD), backend damage: 15,816
http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?id=27558&level=66&health=20000&magicka=20000&stamina=24000&spelldamage=6500&weapondamage=2000&version=36pts

This is a nerf of 22.7% on the backend damage for me. Just brutal.

Yiko

• The final damage deals approximately 10% more damage than the initial hit at base and increases up to an additional 200% to reach similar values of power seen before.
• The final damage now takes more overall damage to reach, to make the payout less reliably reached in PvP scenarios.

Live


PTS


Live damage cap: 27945
PTS damage cap: 6996*3= 20988
Difference in damage cap: 6957
Percentage decrease in damage cap: 6957/27945= 24.9%


In what world does a 24.9% decrease to an ability's most integral feature "reach similar values of power seen before?" Not only that, but it's going to require more damage/effort to reach the damage cap ON TOP of that significant damage nerf?
On a class that just got nerfed in terms of Jabs' damage and functionality (including the snare)? Burning Light nerfed by around 33% damage while also essentially halving how frequently it can proc? Am I getting this all right, or am I mistaken? Because this doesn't make any sense to me. What kind of design decision is this? This absolutely needs to be re-evaluated. If you're going to make the damage cap harder to reach, then don't nerf the damage cap. As far as I'm concerned, this is just raising the skill floor for the ability while lowering the burst potential and making it harder to reach when it seems like the intention of the developers was to have it perform similarly to how it historically has on the high end with a little extra added difficulty/effort. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

MashmalloMan

K9002 wrote: »

New UESP coefficients are in. The final explosion scales with a mix of highest resource and power. This is a slight buff to magplar and a nerf to stamplar or hybrid builds that don't put 64 points in an attribute. Same magicka and spell power as in my earlier post. The final damage went up to a maximum of 17,571.

This is a nerf for most builds, the go to was to stack spell damage, not max magicka so this isn't really an exclusive nerf for Stamplar, it effects Magplar too.

64/64 in max resource and food will take you to around 25-30k Magicka so your examples don't really apply to the majority of players. Not sure why a hybrid wouldn't go 64/64 nowadays either, it's just an unnecessary nerf to have equal pools.

The build your using also has 50k Magicka so of course your going to see a buff when the final hit didn't scale from it at all on live. It's only possible to get that high with max Magicka stacking sets.