Update 35 Combat Preview

Faded

Intriguing. Interested to see those patch notes drop.

StarOfElyon

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Additionally, "obscene damage production at the high end" comes from the new shiny sets that you all are introducing patch after patch. Turning tide is free major vuln, Kinras is permeant major berserk and permanent minor berserk, coral riptide is a free permeant 740 weapon/spell damage. Pillar of Nirn's proc is disgusting. Rele is rele. You can't give players these tools and not expect them to crazy things with them if they actually know how to play the game.

TRUTH

Jaraal

Iselin wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

As someone who has spent dozens upon dozens of hours perfecting light attack weaving and ability uptime rotations on over 10 dps characters, this is going to be a fantastic change. There is no need to keep the pace at such a high level, especially as veteran players age out of the near super-human reflexes younger players have.

The DOT damage increase should more than compensate for the loss of light attack damage. I think this will put a lot of stress on classes having a strong spammable though.

That said, ZOS, if you touch my Templar Sweeps negatively, I will uninstall.

Oh really? Do tell us more about that DOT damage increase

Is this the part you're talking about?

"For example, previously, a damage over time effect would deal 1.5× the damage of a “spammable” attack (such as Surprise Attack) over its duration of 10 seconds, or 0.15 relative damage per second. Now, damage over time effects will deal 2× the damage of a spammable attack over its duration of 20 seconds, increasing its damage per cast while reducing its relative damage per second to 0.1."

"Damage per second" is usually referred to as DPS. You might want to make a note that it's actually DECREASING.

And you know darn well they are going to increase the resource cost of these “longer” DOTs, which is going to create even worse sustain for the target audience: the low APM button mashers, who are not as good at timing their skills and as a result will be over applying their DOTs more often, versus the folks who use a mental metronome.

Yet another example of how this will further widen the gap between low end and high end players.

tomfant

Most low-DPS players I see are just spamming LA, ie reducing LA power will harm those casuals much more than the sweaty endgamers. You will get the exact opposite of what you intent to get.

Glantir

I am curious if they keep old Content on track. For example sunspire, if your Portal group barely kills the Mini in time, how will it looks after this Patch? 😅

Lykeion

That's obvious that you're simply nerfing all players with these changes instead of helping new players, and new players suffer more than endgame players. If you really want to help beginner players, you should bump the damage up instead of nerfing it down, trying to get everyone to buy new chapters to use your new gears that are simply overpowered

Faulgor

I feel like many people are missing the point of "closing the delta". They aren't out to get you, the top end players, just out of a righteous fervor for balance or somesuch.
ZOS doesn't want to develop content that most people don't play. That's not a good investment of time, money, and energy.
Yet they pump out 4 new dungeons and a trial every year with increasingly difficult hardmodes and veteran versions, when I would hazard a guess that most people can't even complete these encounters on normal.
Developing content for such a breadth of skill level is undesirable. Closing the delta will allow them to develop content more appealing for more players.

Will these changes accomplish that? I'm doubtful, and it's not what I would have done, but I understand the underlying goal and look forward to the PTS.

DairyCat

I'm very confused by the proposed strategy of making light attacks only do a fixed amount of damage. This would have the effect of making light attack weaving more important for newer players but less important in the end game due to not scaling.

ZOS has not stated what they consider as a "high end", however if we assume this is 100K DPS, then the light attacks of this type of toon is between the range of 16-25K damage per light attack depending on the exact build. If ZOS are looking to half this amount, then it implies the static number for light attacks is going to be around 8-12K damage per light attack. A toon with a parse of 20K DPS does on average 3.5-5K per light attack. In other words, the fixed amount ZOS is currently testing is potentially higher than what early game toons are currently doing. This would have the ironic effect of making light attack weaving more important for newer players to master because of the high base damage of light attacks, but less important late game due to light attack damage no longer scaling.

lPeacekeeperl

To many opinions to read all of them, but i hope somebody from ZOS have to do this

And I'd like to add one more:

First of all: Im happy with this anounced changes as they is For two simple reason:
I'm not young and fast as used to be, so high APM is rather exhousting
My internet connection is not super fast and ping is high
So over all good changes for me.

But there is other problem with weaving - "character animation convulsions"
I'd prefer to see changes of light|heavy attacs more in direction of cristal weapon skill(sorcs)

Something like this already exist in Psijic skill - conversion of L|H attacs to healyng "abilities".
SO will be great to see something like: "Spamable skills" becomes buff, which does two effects"
1) drasticly increases ligh attac dmg(or does additional "effect" like firebolls in 3 enemies arond, dk right)
2) initiates GCD for skills on every one lightattack ( so effectively LA and skills get shared GCD)

By this we can acheave some goals:
1) Wery low apm players gets way to do some good damage both in PVP and PVE without lot of micromanagement
2) Removal of "convulsions" from animation
3) Stylish fights(you can make|translate different animations for different "spamables" so ligtattack can look different)
4) way to change effects or behavior of light|heavy atacs (add stun effect to some of heavy? Jump-gapcloser? paty-buff?) and thiss can make fights more fariative

DairyCat

Faulgor wrote: »

Developing content for such a breadth of skill level is undesirable. Closing the delta will allow them to develop content more appealing for more players.

This is only true if you close the delta by raising the floor. It's not true if the delta is closed by nerfing the ceiling. All that does is make high end players do content they already do about 10% slower. It doesn't do anything to help the guy at the bottom if they were struggling to pass certain DPS thresholds to access content because they haven't shifted the 10% nerf to a 10% buff to abilities. So the guy not light attack weaving and only spamming abilities is not going to see any increase in their own performance.

remosito

tomfant wrote: »

Most low-DPS players I see are just spamming LA, ie reducing LA power will harm those casuals much more than the sweaty endgamers. You will get the exact opposite of what you intent to get.

with LA being fixed value now. will be much easier to tune sets to lift LA obly players without lifting top end..

"add x wp/sp to LA" sets that got recently changed will have to be changed again. unless I misunderstand what fix LA dmg means (not affected by wp/sp)

Dagobertfuk

[snip]

They gave us that big Overland Feedback Thread to not need to care about closing the ton of threads about that topic anymore.

You already lowered the skill ceiling and now you wanna do it again. [snip] You just archieve that the game becomes ***.

[snip] Banned for tbag, banned for roleplay names, banned for exploiting. Noone of that things made you ban people before.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

remosito

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

[snip]

They gave us that big Overland Feedback Thread to not need to care about closing the ton of threads about that topic anymore.

You already lowered the skill ceiling and now you wanna do it again. [snip] You just archieve that the game becomes ***.

[snip]

plenty of vets are not hardcore or endgame or pvp... but casuals

probably more vet casuals than vet hc players. by a healthy margin

[edited to remove quote]

Pepegrillos

At this point, you should just remove animation canceling altogether instead of tiptoeing around it.

kindnuguz

Sounds good, but it's been a long 2+ years of change to where it is now.
It's going to take at least that long to "fix" if not longer.

The biggest change that made it feel clunky (imo) was after update 28, when I logged on and felt how everything worked, it felt very foreign.

Plus the changes from 1 second to 2+ seconds for Mag\Stam\Health regen was another reason our eyes stay glued to the bottom of the screen.
I'm glad they recognize our eyes are not on the game play, this isn't a way to play a game. Staring at the bottom of the screen keeping all your skills, mag\stam, health up just to barely make it, feels more like a chore than "fun".

I hope for the best, and thank you for the update.

Dagobertfuk

remosito wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

[snip]

They gave us that big Overland Feedback Thread to not need to care about closing the ton of threads about that topic anymore.

You already lowered the skill ceiling and now you wanna do it again. [snip] You just archieve that the game becomes ***.

[snip]

plenty of vets are not hardcore or endgame or pvp... but casuals

probably more vet casuals than vet hc players. by a healthy margin

That doesnt change that this combat fixes dont make you a better player. It just makes you look better and Impossible for veterans/ ''hc players'' to further sharpen their skills. Not rly worth to play anymore for them.

[snip]
[edited for bashing, baiting & to remove quote]

remosito

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

[snip]

They gave us that big Overland Feedback Thread to not need to care about closing the ton of threads about that topic anymore.

You already lowered the skill ceiling and now you wanna do it again. [snip] You just archieve that the game becomes ***.

[snip]

plenty of vets are not hardcore or endgame or pvp... but casuals

probably more vet casuals than vet hc players. by a healthy margin

That doesnt change that this combat fixes dont make you a better player. It just makes you look better and Impossible for veterans/ ''hc players'' to further sharpen their skills. Not rly worth to play anymore for them.

.

hyperbole much?

LA weaving is still a thing and they still get 10% dps boost over non weavers..

yes mastery should give you a boost. personally I think 10% is amply enough..

this will close the gap. and allow non perfect weavers, which lagged to much behind right now. to earn spots in rosters.

[edited to remove quote]

FrancisCrawford

If a higher fraction of our damage is supposed to come from spammables, then spammable and pseudo-spammable skills should become more important. E.g., whether or not your build has a good execute is likely to be a bigger deal.

If buffs and debuffs are less valuable, morph balance may be affected. E.g., any warden who hasn't changed yet from magicka to stamina shalks -- e.g. mine -- should do so.

Indeed, the damage loss from Crushing Shock may become less acceptable, even though its secondary effect won't be affected by these changes.

James-Wayne

The goal is pretty simple so here is a simple visual, your welcome.

MindOfTheSwarm

If you want to make the game more accessible for people with slower reactions or disabilities. Then the clear answer is simply to provide a slottable CP star that does this:

Increase the damage of your ground damage over time effects by 75% and all other damage over time effects by 20% and increase their duration by 10 seconds, but reduce the damage of your direct damage by 75%

This way Light Attack Weaving and spamming direct skills isn’t as important. Saving people who suffer from things like carpal tunnel or trigger finger and slowing the game down for them while letting them deal competitive damage through their ground dot’s. It wouldn’t break PvP either as 20% on direct dots isn’t that much. 75% on ground DoT’s is huge, but players can simply move out of them, while also making them useful for zoning in PvP opening up the door for such players to act as supports for their more direct oriented teammates.

You help slower players by increasing their DPS through ground DoT’s and healing through heal over time skills. Making for a more relaxed play style.

Since it is optional, normal players can not take the node and build like normal without their weaving style being hurt.

phaneub17_ESO

Since you're making them do flat, fixed damage how about changing the way attacks restore resources? Light Attacks restore the weapon's resource type while Heavy Attacks restore both resources?

Dagobertfuk

remosito wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

[snip]

They gave us that big Overland Feedback Thread to not need to care about closing the ton of threads about that topic anymore.

You already lowered the skill ceiling and now you wanna do it again. [snip] You just archieve that the game becomes ***.

[snip]

plenty of vets are not hardcore or endgame or pvp... but casuals

probably more vet casuals than vet hc players. by a healthy margin

That doesnt change that this combat fixes dont make you a better player. It just makes you look better and Impossible for veterans/ ''hc players'' to further sharpen their skills. Not rly worth to play anymore for them.

.

hyperbole much?

LA weaving is still a thing and they still get 10% dps boost over non weavers..

yes mastery should give you a boost. personally I think 10% is amply enough..

this will close the gap. and allow non perfect weavers, which lagged to much behind right now. to earn spots in rosters.

[snip] I dont care at all about the Light Attack/Heavy Attack Change.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

SirNom

Why are you closing the power gap? People need to have something to work towards and anyone that says that these changes are great are more than likely unskilled and maybe newer players. You are punishing your already very small endgame community rather than trying to expand it and reward it. It feels like in order to move forward you have made the decision to remove all current end game players and replace them with a new large end game group of what would have been casuals or massively less skilled people.

If you want to close the power gap, you need to start teaching people how to play your game. Your tutorials and base game content with questing is too easy, it needs updating. If you cannot do the main campaign these days then you have issues. When you do finally complete the campaign and see dungeons or end game content, you are going to drown in the amount of info you need in order to play at the veteran content level. This isnt their fault, it is the developers fault for not providing educating material on how to improve. You should be teaching people. Anything you currently have to teach people is nothing short of awful.

You should be happy and rewarding towards the people that have become amazing at your game. You are instead punishing them.

FrancisCrawford

Arvendir wrote: »

I've been playing since the closed beta of the game

You've always tried to lower the gap between the "pro" and the new players but you always ended up to fail and get things worse

Most of the players already said a lot of obvious things about this useless change but let me add the fact that even if you will give to LA a flat damage, they will always be done perfectly by the good players and the gap will remain

Also, the new players tend to spam LA with some skills when they remember or tend to spam skills without LA.

The first case is the most common one. If you nerf the LA, you're just going to get the thing worse to all the casual players that live the game

On the other hand you're making the end game content of the game very boring for the veteran comminity

Whoever thought about these changes over these years, should really change perspective

LA will now be a larger fraction of potential damage for low-level players than for high-level ones, right?

So weaving skills will be more important for low-level players than for higher-level ones???

alcolol

I'm terrible at dealing damage. I've sunk a lot of time into this game and so have earned a whole bunch of champion points, and I make a passable vet/hardmode tank, but I am really not that good at DPS.

In theory I support the idea of reducing the skill gap, but it's not clear for what purpose it's being attempted here, so I don't think I support it. It seems like it could make a difference in PvP, and maybe make trial leaderboards more competitive, but is there a point outside of those? So you want to reduce the skill gap, sure, but why? What do unskilled players have to benefit from that?

The OP had no mention of increasing base rates of damage, or decreasing enemy hitpoints/armour etc, to compensate for what is a very real lowering of damage output - I'm not good at weaving (or even remembering to weave), but I still nevertheless use light attacks occasionally! I'm not great at it but I sometimes do an okay job at keeping a high uptime with my buffs/debuffs! And now you're talking about reducing the DPS of both.

So it sounds like what you're doing here is going to reduce my damage output (as averaged over time), and make the dream for me, a bad player, to be able to perform a damage dealer role in veteran content even less obtainable than it has been already. Is that what the purpose of these changes is? Because it's honestly not clear what the goal is.

ADarklore

I'm very much OK with these changes. ZOS has never been friendly to long-term vet players as most no long contribute to their business bottom line. Continuously bringing in new players who buy things, that's where the money is. Not saying vet players don't spend money, just saying they been around long enough to have most of what they already want- unless something new comes out. But they're not buying skyshards, mount upgrades, armories, etc.. because they already have them. Money already spent isn't money coming in.

So in order to keep money coming in, they need to make new players FEEL like they can be equal to vet players. I also do agree with the point that it makes the game easier for disabled and older players to play.

If you want to see a real nightmare scenario of what an MMO could become, check out DCUO! You can pretty much level up through the cash shop, and for those who don't want to, they make the game more difficult to achieve the same things by just playing. I guess that's what happens when F2P occurs, hopefully ESO never goes that route.

Hyporis

Eso becomming a mobile game when ?

CP5

remosito wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

[snip]

They gave us that big Overland Feedback Thread to not need to care about closing the ton of threads about that topic anymore.

You already lowered the skill ceiling and now you wanna do it again. [snip] You just archieve that the game becomes ***.

[snip]

plenty of vets are not hardcore or endgame or pvp... but casuals

probably more vet casuals than vet hc players. by a healthy margin

That doesnt change that this combat fixes dont make you a better player. It just makes you look better and Impossible for veterans/ ''hc players'' to further sharpen their skills. Not rly worth to play anymore for them.

.

hyperbole much?

LA weaving is still a thing and they still get 10% dps boost over non weavers..

yes mastery should give you a boost. personally I think 10% is amply enough..

this will close the gap. and allow non perfect weavers, which lagged to much behind right now. to earn spots in rosters.

The bigger issue for many players is effectively using their abilities. The parse I posted was from the update 33 feedback thread iirc and involved no light attacks, devaluing light attacks won't suddenly make players more suited for the challenging content, that comes from a better understanding of how the game works and how their skills work, something that buffs and nerfs won't do. Just because Player A is doing less dps doesn't mean Player B, without changing anything on their own end will somehow be better, and as has been mentioned these changes will impact some of those negatively.

[edited to remove quote]

TheGreatBlackBear

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Rip any future godslayer, planesbreaker, or swashbuckler runs for those of us on console. Are y'all going to adjust the speed run time limits to compensate for dumbing down the damage? I wish the devs actually played endgame instead of looking at spreadsheets or watching the best players in the world knock these things out with add-ons. Maybe we're all supposed to just be werewolves and rp in the rift.

Nonsense take tbh. Most console trifectas are not earned in the patch when the content was released anyway. So I don't see your point. The catch up gear and class buffs that will come in future updates will be more than enough to get console players the achievement. Here on Xbox serious groups players are already doing IR, GH GS DB and DB with healthy time to spare. That will not change and we will likely see Swashbuckler be achieved by groups in U35 at a rate that you'd expect from end game players.

Firstmep

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm very much OK with these changes. ZOS has never been friendly to long-term vet players as most no long contribute to their business bottom line. Continuously bringing in new players who buy things, that's where the money is. Not saying vet players don't spend money, just saying they been around long enough to have most of what they already want- unless something new comes out. But they're not buying skyshards, mount upgrades, armories, etc.. because they already have them. Money already spent isn't money coming in.

So in order to keep money coming in, they need to make new players FEEL like they can be equal to vet players. I also do agree with the point that it makes the game easier for disabled and older players to play.

If you want to see a real nightmare scenario of what an MMO could become, check out DCUO! You can pretty much level up through the cash shop, and for those who don't want to, they make the game more difficult to achieve the same things by just playing. I guess that's what happens when F2P occurs, hopefully ESO never goes that route.

U wat mate.
I've been paying for eso plus and been buying chapters since the game was out(or well paid the mandatory sub before eso plus).
Most vet players I know are the same.
Actually what zos want is for new players to stick around so they can spend more money, this is why these changes are targeted at more intermediate players and not vets or brand new players.
La weaving is not something someone who picked up the game a few months ago is going to care about hugely.
These changes are intended to bridge the gap between top tier and intermediate players, if they wanted to only cater to brand new players they would just nerf all pve content in one fell swoop.