Franchise408 wrote: »And as has been stated many times over the years of this thread, the game didn't struggle because of difficulty.
Franchise408 wrote: »I'm suggesting that people who state their reason for needing easy difficulty are because of bad Internet connections and inability to push the buttons needed to play the game are the demographic that should not be balanced around..
Franchise408 wrote: »If playing a particular type of game presents that much of a challenge for you, perhaps you should be re-evaluating the types of games you're playing instead of demanding they be dumbed down for you.
I don't speak for ZOS but I would bet that they have access to data which informs them about how many people have played previous TES games at different difficulty levels, in addition to data which tells them about how people play ESO. I'm sure they know that it's better (read: more profitable) to provide support for everyone who wishes to play than a more narrow, high-skill audience. Modern TES is built to enable players who want a more casual, story-focused experience and demanding that the challenge be adjusted for every player is not a viable tactic if you're expecting any actual change. It will never happen.Franchise408 wrote: »ESO has a built in audience that would make the game a success regardless of the difficulty. The game's early struggles were design problems.
But they like to play this kind of game. People don't always play games because they want to be the best at them. TES provides an opportunity to immerse oneself in another world, it's not just about racing through content to defeat the big bad. Surely you can understand why story-focused players, players of lower skill or diminished ability would want this. ESO provides that for them.Franchise408 wrote: »If playing a particular type of game presents that much of a challenge for you, perhaps you should be re-evaluating the types of games you're playing instead of demanding they be dumbed down for you.
TES has had difficulty settings since Morrowind. Players have been able to adjust the difficulty and play at a lower level in TES games for over 20 years. There's no basis for the notion that TES is meant to be challenging because we've had options for decades.Franchise408 wrote: »As an enthusiast for Elder Scrolls games, it's sad to see the core foundation of the game relegated to such a state as we see ESO's overland. The portion of the game that might give me an Elder Scrolls type of experience is a complete non-starter to me because of its poor design.
SilverBride wrote: »Those that enjoy a casual questing experience aren't necessarily low skilled. I love that I can enjoy the story and not struggle through mobs as I do so, and feel like I'm the strong hero they tell me I am. But I also like challenges and have done every type of content except veteran trials, which I will some day.
I have played other MMOs and easy overland has been the norm so this is not unusual. I don't know why we would expect ESO to be different.
SilverBride wrote: »Those that enjoy a casual questing experience aren't necessarily low skilled. I love that I can enjoy the story and not struggle through mobs as I do so, and feel like I'm the strong hero they tell me I am. But I also like challenges and have done every type of content except veteran trials, which I will some day.
I have played other MMOs and easy overland has been the norm so this is not unusual. I don't know why we would expect ESO to be different.
Other MMOs have had similar struggles among a significant chunk of the players too, though. The most famous example is World of Warcraft where a large chunk of players absolutely hated what WoW became after Cataclysm (or thereabouts) and wanted greater challenge/retro gameplay/Vanilla.
And a lot of people know that story. The now infamous "you think you do, but you don't" line from that guy on stage who was mercilessly torn to shreds on the internet, the subsequent admission of error, and the massively successful re-release of Vanilla WoW that everyone said couldn't be done and wouldn't work. Well it was, and it did.
I'll of course grant that had more to do with just difficulty alone, but that was a good chunk of it. People pined for the old days of slower leveling, a more vibrant and dangerous world to travel and quest in, and more meaningful and impactful choices in their leveling process (i.e. what's the point of upgrading my gear if I'm invincible anyways?).
I wouldn't ask for the same thing for ESO (i.e. "go back to vanilla" or whatever), but I AM asking for an optional slider which would make the overland zones less predictable and more challenging, and actually give me a reason to roll an alt. As it stands now, I only ever roll on my main, and haven't leveled any alts (except one for the DB and TG sneaky stuff) beyond level 8 because it's an absolute atrocity of a video game where nothing can ever possibly defeat me and everything is marked with a giant white arrow telling me exactly what to do and where to go at all times. It's tedious.
I think if ZoS were to make this "slider" happen in a meaningful way, with enough fanfare (they could market it as "Tamriel Reborn" or something, I dunno... And as I suggested before even put a voiced quest chain behind it, which they are REALLY good at), I truly believe it would be a major success and give people a new reason to make alts, and give people like Franchise408 (I believe there are more of them out there than you think) to come back again.
And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". I never interact with anyone. EVER. But if there were a challenge out there, I might actually need to join a group to overcome it. I'd be willing to bet new guilds would pop up with "hard mode" players only, which I would happily join... which would UNsplit me from the "player base" for the first time literally ever.
Franchise408 wrote: »You can actually have challenge in the game without driving away even the casual players.
And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". .
spartaxoxo wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »You can actually have challenge in the game without driving away even the casual players.
21 million players and 2 billion dollars. This game is already successful.
I don't think we get difficulty sliders by insulting the players that enjoy it or claiming they don't know what they are doing. They have very clearly found an audience that enjoys a relaxed gaming experience.
There can be both relaxing and challenging games on the market. Even better when those games provide difficulty options. I personally would love a difficulty slider that didn't split the playerbase.And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". .
A separate instance would split the players who are using overland. Players who enjoy story content are the vast majority of the playerbase. That's who the developers are worried about splitting. Player separation was one of the most complained about things that nearly killed this game. Given how much more they talk about it, I'd wager it was the biggest factor. So, it is a legitimate concern that a solution needs to factor in imo.
Franchise408 wrote: »How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?
spartaxoxo wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?
Because they are already playing together. The vast majority of the playerbase is already using overland. They have been very clear about that. They explicitly stated the vast majority enjoy the story and exploration.
There's plenty of people who use the overland as it is, but would use a more difficult version if it was available. I know people who only do the story one time because they find the difficulty level a snooze. Or rush alts through it just for the skill point. I am one of them. I use overland. But, I also would like more difficulty. Many of us are NOT already split and the devs know that. That's who they are concerned about splitting off from new users NOT people who aren't even there.
Franchise408 wrote: »But the thing is, even if people are playing overland, they aren't doing it *together*, and that's the whole point of the "split the playerbase" argument. They are doing it solo and not working alongside other players to complete the quests. For the small handful that are, they can still do that in whichever instance they choose to do it in, but the vast majority of players aren't doing questing content with other players. So splitting the playerbase is a complete non-factor.
Franchise408 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?
Because they are already playing together. The vast majority of the playerbase is already using overland. They have been very clear about that. They explicitly stated the vast majority enjoy the story and exploration.
There's plenty of people who use the overland as it is, but would use a more difficult version if it was available. I know people who only do the story one time because they find the difficulty level a snooze. Or rush alts through it just for the skill point. I am one of them. I use overland. But, I also would like more difficulty. Many of us are NOT already split and the devs know that. That's who they are concerned about splitting off from new users NOT people who aren't even there.
But the thing is, even if people are playing overland, they aren't doing it *together*, and that's the whole point of the "split the playerbase" argument. They are doing it solo and not working alongside other players to complete the quests. For the small handful that are, they can still do that in whichever instance they choose to do it in, but the vast majority of players aren't doing questing content with other players. So splitting the playerbase is a complete non-factor.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.
It's just not necessary. The whole separation argument smacks of classism, as if the skilled and the not-skilled must exist on different evolutionary tiers. As if the player gains a sense of self-worth from their choice of ESO server. If there's a sensible reason for it I'd love to hear it but I've never actually received a cogent justification.
SilverBride wrote: »I feel I need to reinforce that this is not an issue of skilled or non-skilled. MANY that enjoy overland just as it is ARE skilled. I worked to develop my characters and I hold my own in any group content I take part in. I just enjoy a relaxed questing experience.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.
It's just not necessary. The whole separation argument smacks of classism, as if the skilled and the not-skilled must exist on different evolutionary tiers. As if the player gains a sense of self-worth from their choice of ESO server. If there's a sensible reason for it I'd love to hear it but I've never actually received a cogent justification.
While I think some want it for elitist reasons, I think a lot of them just want a separate one because they think the devs will maintain two different versions of the game. So, they'll add a lot of new mechanics. I don't think that's particularly likely but I can certainly see the appeal. I'd settle for a few new attacks from a small amount of adds, ala Lotro's slider, and IA personally.
spartaxoxo wrote: »The reasons they have given us as to why they aren't doing it must address these concerns because these are the reasons the devs won't do it. At least if I remember correctly over the years.
1) Don't want players quitting because they find game suddenly too difficult.
2) Don't want to split the playerbase
3) Don't want to do a separate instance because Cadwell Silver and Gold failed.
4) Too much work for old content
5) Don't know how to add rewards
Any solution needs to be easy to implement, not split players, and allow them to add rewards without messing with the existing reward structure.
This is why I support a slider and always have. It addresses all of those concerns. The LOTRO developers had originally wanted to make a separate more difficult server but found it to too much work. They stated a slider was like cheating in terms of work and resources. I don't know too much about game development, but that sounds like it's less effort to me.
A slider can be incentivized because you can just have the person gain more coin or whatever. And having a slider means the rewards can be separate from quest completion, which means no messing with the existing reward structure.
A slider allowed players who are using it and not using it to remain together.
And it is an entirely different concept to Cadwell.
Slider is entirely optional and doesn't effect the other players, so they have no reason to quit like they would if difficulty was forced on them.
Finally, it's something that fits the Elder Scrolls Universe because it's a standard part of their single player games. They didn't state this but I feel it's a benefit since they talk a lot about wanting to embrace the single player games and don't like using the word MMO to describe their game.
I don't want this thread to backslide back into
Devs: We know y'all want more difficulty, I like more difficult things myself. But we can't do a separate instance for several reasons
Players: It's a separate instance or nothing.
Devs: Okay, nothing
Players: 😮
Because that's what it's been for a long time now. I'd like to move forward from that.
They have never commented on sliders in a way that demonstrates understanding of the suggestion. And CredibleJoe recent suggestion also has not been commented on, and is a good hybrid. We also have a recent suggestion of using scribing system for it. Scribing might be the most realistic because they already laid the groundwork for it. IDK. And Scribing also solves the reward issue because it can remain kill mobs while using scribed skills or whatever.
Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.
spartaxoxo wrote: »The reasons they have given us as to why they aren't doing it must address these concerns because these are the reasons the devs won't do it. At least if I remember correctly over the years.
1) Don't want players quitting because they find game suddenly too difficult.
2) Don't want to split the playerbase
3) Don't want to do a separate instance because Cadwell Silver and Gold failed.
4) Too much work for old content
5) Don't know how to add rewards
Any solution needs to be easy to implement, not split players, and allow them to add rewards without messing with the existing reward structure.
This is why I support a slider and always have. It addresses all of those concerns. The LOTRO developers had originally wanted to make a separate more difficult server but found it to too much work. They stated a slider was like cheating in terms of work and resources. I don't know too much about game development, but that sounds like it's less effort to me.
A slider can be incentivized because you can just have the person gain more coin or whatever. And having a slider means the rewards can be separate from quest completion, which means no messing with the existing reward structure.
A slider allowed players who are using it and not using it to remain together.
And it is an entirely different concept to Cadwell.
Slider is entirely optional and doesn't effect the other players, so they have no reason to quit like they would if difficulty was forced on them.
Finally, it's something that fits the Elder Scrolls Universe because it's a standard part of their single player games. They didn't state this but I feel it's a benefit since they talk a lot about wanting to embrace the single player games and don't like using the word MMO to describe their game.
I don't want this thread to backslide back into
Devs: We know y'all want more difficulty, I like more difficult things myself. But we can't do a separate instance for several reasons
Players: It's a separate instance or nothing.
Devs: Okay, nothing
Players: 😮
Because that's what it's been for a long time now. I'd like to move forward from that.
They have never commented on sliders in a way that demonstrates understanding of the suggestion. And CredibleJoe recent suggestion also has not been commented on, and is a good hybrid. We also have a recent suggestion of using scribing system for it. Scribing might be the most realistic because they already laid the groundwork for it. IDK. And Scribing also solves the reward issue because it can remain kill mobs while using scribed skills or whatever.
Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.
To be objective it’s irrelevant whichever ideas in this thread gain the most support at this point I doubt you can count even 40 players who keep up with discussion if the concerns about overland difficulty ever to be addressed it’s most likely would be entirely different implementation to the suggestions listed there.
I was really hopeful at first myself that this is going to be something really significant after all the complains. But considering that discussions about overland difficulty started way back before creation of this thread 3 years ago and there’s still barely any response from developers and not a single positive one I’ve started to doubt if there even going to be anything addressed about it at all.
Personally, I gradually moving on from ESO as suggested by posters on the very first pages. There are so many good challenging games released or going to be released which is far more enjoyable and engaging. Logging in ESO this year for me was mostly a chore, doing endeavors and getting event tickets as fast as I can then logging off. I can’t deny leveling and playing arcanist, primarily in pvp, then doing endless archive achievements grind was great fun. Yet it’s only a small portion of new content as main chapters was total slog making me question why I even spent my real money on them instead of just skipping them entirely.
Franchise408 wrote: »I am not sure where there is any measure of fun that comes from having zero possibility of actually losing.
Franchise408 wrote: »It is a shame, because I want to like ESO. I want to love ESO. There is no gaming IP that I have more love for than Elder Scrolls. I absolutely adore MMO's and what they can be. By all rights, ESO should be my ultimate game. Unfortunately, ESO has managed to push away everything that made TES games great, go all in on an entirely formulaic and cookie cutter MMO design, and balance their game around people who don't want to lose.
Franchise408 wrote: »It is a shame, because I want to like ESO. I want to love ESO. There is no gaming IP that I have more love for than Elder Scrolls. I absolutely adore MMO's and what they can be. By all rights, ESO should be my ultimate game. Unfortunately, ESO has managed to push away everything that made TES games great, go all in on an entirely formulaic and cookie cutter MMO design, and balance their game around people who don't want to lose.
That's pretty much how I see it.
I'll add that this thread primarily exists to remove all the clutter from the main forum.
Anything else is secondary.
When i know the combat is easy like that i just hold the attack button and heavy attack anything.
Franchise408 wrote: »snip
I believe that the game never should have been balanced for the low skilled players from the get go, and it originally was not designed for that in the first place.
snip
Franchise408 wrote: »snip
I believe that the game never should have been balanced for the low skilled players from the get go, and it originally was not designed for that in the first place.
snip
Yes it was designed for low-skilled players. Players with TES background; not MMO background. The MMO part was an experiment
I couldn't agree more. I find myself losing interest halfway through most Chapters' quest lines because it's hard to be engaged when you're just running from point A to point B and killing everything, including quest bosses, in a hit or two. It's the main reason I hardly finish them.colossalvoids wrote: »But I've quoted for a different reason, I really low-key hate how tes player always portrayed as a low skilled one here, but it wasn't farther from truth until just recently with Skyrim. Morrowind and even Oblivion were not that even on the most left side of a difficulty slider, it was still an experience and wrong cave / rat could have easily humble player down. Tes players also want to have an entertaining game, not just mmo players.
Personally I want an option of having vast majority of the developed game (overland) matching the narrative of elder scrolls world being dangerous, daedra posing actual threat etc. It's a lost cause because business, but here we are still not letting them forget what part of the community wishes to see.
TheDarkRuler wrote: »Most people engaging in Overland content just want to quest or doing their dailies.
However, so many enemies are not being played at all because they can be skipped.
The dragging of enemies through overland or delves is already a thing and if you increase the difficulty more, it will just increase because running is faster than fighting.