Overland Content Feedback Thread

Snamyap

Always get a bit sad when I read up in this thread on how simple and dogmatic some people think. Like as if there is some rule that says harder overland equals 5 minutes life to death fights with every skeever and dung beetle you run into.
There are so many other ways to implement this that don't involve splitting the playerbase or impeding on people resource gathering runs.
You can keep content easier near towns and along roads. You can create something harder in out of the way places, like a bandit camp or troll cave with a difficulty level about equal to public dungeons thrash groups. Maybe a mini dolmen like event: clear the camp and the leader shows up. Give it a worthwhile reward for newer players but nothing veterans would want to farm: clear a poacher camp and get 50 leather.
Think a bit more creative, out of the box.

Also I think the new Bastion thingies are intended as harder overland content a bit hilarious. It's instance content for four people? That sounds rather familiar... 🙄

Kendaric

Snamyap wrote: »

Also I think the new Bastion thingies are intended as harder overland content a bit hilarious. It's instance content for four people? That sounds rather familiar... 🙄

Well, the first 5 bosses are overland content. So it's at least partially correct...

But yeah, it seems to me that the instanced part was originally planned as a DLC dungeon (I might be wrong of course, but it's the impression I got).

TaSheen

SendexNL wrote: »

I don’t mind trash mobs being easy but a boss should give me some challenge. That s what gets me the most, the build up to something spectacular and in the end it’s a fight that lasts for a minute tops. Oké I might not to be the most average new player, I’ve been playing mmo’s for 20 years +, but there is very little challenge which makes these quests and their, great, dialogue meaningless.

I've been playing computer games since 1985. However, I'm now in my mid 70s, my reflexes are [snip], twitchy combat was never something I was good at, and I have mega ping due to satellite being my only option for connection. I already have way too much trouble with story bosses - to the point that I won't in future be doing one of the things I love the most about this game: the chapter MQs.

If they could give story bosses a "challenge banner" option, and otherwise leave them not too difficult, that would work, wouldn't it?

[edited for profanity bypass]

AScarlato

TaSheen wrote: »

SendexNL wrote: »

I don’t mind trash mobs being easy but a boss should give me some challenge. That s what gets me the most, the build up to something spectacular and in the end it’s a fight that lasts for a minute tops. Oké I might not to be the most average new player, I’ve been playing mmo’s for 20 years +, but there is very little challenge which makes these quests and their, great, dialogue meaningless.

I've been playing computer games since 1985. However, I'm now in my mid 70s, my reflexes are [snip], twitchy combat was never something I was good at, and I have mega ping due to satellite being my only option for connection. I already have way too much trouble with story bosses - to the point that I won't in future be doing one of the things I love the most about this game: the chapter MQs.

If they could give story bosses a "challenge banner" option, and otherwise leave them not too difficult, that would work, wouldn't it?

Love the optional challenge banner idea. Even if none of this is ever implemented, it is nice to see some brainstorming to hopefully keep the game enjoyable for as many as possible.

[edited to remove quote]

TaSheen

I really believe that there's enough people who want more challenge that ZOS should do something about it. I didn't used to feel that way, but as I said, since I've actually been paying attention to zone chat and talking to people on my friends list, as well as my RL friends, I'm seeing that it really is an issue for many people.

I'd rather deal with ramped up overland, than have the game lose a lot of players, and ZOS shut the doors....

SilverBride

AScarlato wrote: »

Love the optional challenge banner idea. Even if none of this is ever implemented, it is nice to see some brainstorming to hopefully keep the game enjoyable for as many as possible.

This idea was presented way back and has been supported for most of this thread. Also debuff foods and armor sets, difficulty sliders, difficulty levels for already instanced content such as Delves and Public Dungeons. Most of the posters on both sides of the debate support these as possible solutions, even those of us that would never use them ourselves.

The debate continues because some posters will only consider a separate veteran overland or nothing.

SilverBride

TaSheen wrote: »

I really believe that there's enough people who want more challenge that ZOS should do something about it. I didn't used to feel that way, but as I said, since I've actually been paying attention to zone chat and talking to people on my friends list, as well as my RL friends, I'm seeing that it really is an issue for many people.

I'd rather deal with ramped up overland, than have the game lose a lot of players, and ZOS shut the doors....

Difficult overland was a major factor in why the game was failing after launch. The veteran levels of Cadwell's Silver and Gold were so difficult that very few players completed them. There were other factors, such as separating the playerbase by faction and the forced grouping of Craglorn, but difficulty was a very common complaint.

One Tamriel removed the veteran overland zones and toned down Craglorn, and this is what saved the game. It's been this way for 7 years now and has been very successful. If anything the game has become more casual friendly through the years and this attracts a lot of players.

That being said I do support many of the optional ideas presented in this thread as quality of life features for those that prefer more difficulty, but just increasing overland difficulty for everyone is more likely to lose a lot of players than not.

Snamyap

SilverBride wrote: »

It's been this way for 7 years now and has been very successful.

The problem is that the difficulty of the overland and quest content has not been adjusted since. I don't know what the max parses were back then but they were nowhere near the 130k of this day. So for a lot of players that quest content has become ever more trivial while simply playing the game as it is intended: developing your character(s) is the core of all RPGs.
I'm not going to rehash 169 pages to explain the immersion issue of being much, much stronger than "the world ending doom". It's just bad game design when you're enjoyment of the game automatically diminishes the longer you play and the further you develop your character.
I like The Elder Scrolls universe because of it's deep lore and I love questing. That did not change just because I have 2000-ish CP and dungeon loot.

Like I said before: I no longer really care about overland difficulty, but quest immersion is a big thing for me. It is that I absolutely love Lovecraftian horror else I might just skip on the new chapter, or stop playing entirely.

Kendaric

SilverBride wrote: »

Difficult overland was a major factor in why the game was failing after launch. The veteran levels of Cadwell's Silver and Gold were so difficult that very few players completed them. There were other factors, such as separating the playerbase by faction and the forced grouping of Craglorn, but difficulty was a very common complaint.

One Tamriel removed the veteran overland zones and toned down Craglorn, and this is what saved the game. It's been this way for 7 years now and has been very successful. If anything the game has become more casual friendly through the years and this attracts a lot of players.

That being said I do support many of the optional ideas presented in this thread as quality of life features for those that prefer more difficulty, but just increasing overland difficulty for everyone is more likely to lose a lot of players than not.

Let's be honest here... veteran zones outside of Craglorn weren't difficult, they were tedious. Remember, back then world bosses were easy enough to solo since they were in between delve bosses and public dungeon bosses in difficulty.

TaSheen wrote: »

I really believe that there's enough people who want more challenge that ZOS should do something about it. I didn't used to feel that way, but as I said, since I've actually been paying attention to zone chat and talking to people on my friends list, as well as my RL friends, I'm seeing that it really is an issue for many people.

I'd rather deal with ramped up overland, than have the game lose a lot of players, and ZOS shut the doors....

Ramped up difficulty in overland would never really work. How much difficulty increase is too little or too much? A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

That being said, giants, ogres, trolls, mammoths and maybe bears could definitely be buffed a bit.

SilverBride

Snamyap wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's been this way for 7 years now and has been very successful.

The problem is that the difficulty of the overland and quest content has not been adjusted since. I don't know what the max parses were back then but they were nowhere near the 130k of this day.

My DPS is nowhere near 130k, and I greatly suspect that most of the playerbase isn't parsing anywhere near this high. Overland doesn't need to be adjusted for the few who do because then what would happen to the players new to ESO, or those who don't chase the latest META, or those who have disabilities and can't reach that level of skill, or those who just want a relaxing journey through the zones and the stories?

Many players prefer overland to be easy, and don't want to struggle and don't like a challenge in everything they do. This is evident by all the threads begging to have DLC dungeons removed from the random dungeon queue. A lot of players just plain don't like to struggle and come to this game to relax.

The only FAIR solution is one that only affects the players that are choosing more difficulty because this is a personal preference and not a flaw in how overland is set up.

SilverBride

Kendaric wrote: »

Let's be honest here... veteran zones outside of Craglorn weren't difficult, they were tedious. Remember, back then world bosses were easy enough to solo since they were in between delve bosses and public dungeon bosses in difficulty.

I started playing in Beta and I did play through Cadwell's Silver and Gold on one character and I never did it again... because of the difficulty. I remember dying to small packs of wolves frequently and complaining to my friend about how frustrating it was, and if a player wanted to level there was really no other way to do it back then.

As far as soloing World Bosses back then, I never saw or heard of that happening. All I heard were others complaining about how difficult the veteran zones were.

I_killed_Vivec

.

Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

Credible_Joe

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

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Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

This is exactly how I play overland content, and it doesn't make it more challenging. It just makes the fights last longer. The issue here being that the gear, attributes, champion points, and consumables that you earn for playing wind up making the game less fun, and are also unnecessary to succeed.

Ultimately what we're petitioning for is overland content (opt-in, as always) that rewards us for challenges us to gear up and play as effectively as possible. Ideally, in my opinion, in a way that can be walked up in stages so that when someone decides to maybe plunge into group content or PvP, they aren't faced with a difficulty cliff and unattainable skill ceiling.

vsrs_au

Snamyap wrote: »

Always get a bit sad when I read up in this thread on how simple and dogmatic some people think. Like as if there is some rule that says harder overland equals 5 minutes life to death fights with every skeever and dung beetle you run into.
There are so many other ways to implement this that don't involve splitting the playerbase or impeding on people resource gathering runs.
You can keep content easier near towns and along roads. You can create something harder in out of the way places, like a bandit camp or troll cave with a difficulty level about equal to public dungeons thrash groups. Maybe a mini dolmen like event: clear the camp and the leader shows up. Give it a worthwhile reward for newer players but nothing veterans would want to farm: clear a poacher camp and get 50 leather.
Think a bit more creative, out of the box.

Also I think the new Bastion thingies are intended as harder overland content a bit hilarious. It's instance content for four people? That sounds rather familiar... 🙄

This is exactly what I proposed a large number of pages ago in this thread, then I was basically shouted down by some of the more frequent posters in this thread. It would be so easy to implement, no changes in game mechanics required, just the introduction of some more challenging groups in less-used locations.

Kendaric

SilverBride wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Let's be honest here... veteran zones outside of Craglorn weren't difficult, they were tedious. Remember, back then world bosses were easy enough to solo since they were in between delve bosses and public dungeon bosses in difficulty.

I started playing in Beta and I did play through Cadwell's Silver and Gold on one character and I never did it again... because of the difficulty. I remember dying to small packs of wolves frequently and complaining to my friend about how frustrating it was, and if a player wanted to level there was really no other way to do it back then.

As far as soloing World Bosses back then, I never saw or heard of that happening. All I heard were others complaining about how difficult the veteran zones were.

I started playing in beta as well and I never found the veteran levels overly difficult. Fighting the mobs was horribly tedious though due to everything having increased HP. I only completed Cadwell's Silver and played only a part of Cadwell's Gold.

Anyway, that's a moot point as ZOS has already stated they won't bring vet overland back.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

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Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

I've started a character on PC NA (I normally play on PC EU) two days ago, even without CP it's not difficult. I'm fine with it, but I can see why others don't like that.
A big part in this is due to the very strong bolster sub-50 characters get. Maybe lowering the amount by which low levels get boosted is an option, but maybe that's doing more harm than good.

As for rewards... yes, that's my fear. Without increased rewards, nobody will use whatever option ZOS may decide to take and with increased rewards people will feel pressured to use the increased difficulty.

spartaxoxo

Kendaric wrote: »

As for rewards... yes, that's my fear. Without increased rewards, nobody will use whatever option ZOS may decide to take and with increased rewards people will feel pressured to use the increased difficulty.

This is the thing I think they were alluding to when they said that there is an incentive problem of "How do you incentivize it?" or something along those lines. I think they are well aware of the kinds of rewards people enjoy but it's moreso how do they pick something that is good enough to entice people to play it, but not so good that people feel compelled to.

Credible_Joe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

As for rewards... yes, that's my fear. Without increased rewards, nobody will use whatever option ZOS may decide to take and with increased rewards people will feel pressured to use the increased difficulty.

This is the thing I think they were alluding to when they said that there is an incentive problem of "How do you incentivize it?" or something along those lines. I think they are well aware of the kinds of rewards people enjoy but it's moreso how do they pick something that is good enough to entice people to play it, but not so good that people feel compelled to.

While I personally just want a more engaging narrative experience, I think a risk/reward system would work, similar to tel-var. Maybe not going so far as losing gold or XP, but making initial gold / reward quality / XP gain lower than standard overland, until it ramps up higher and higher the longer you go without dying.

Akasha_Mei

People who has time go too fast in the game... Which it's not only about fighting. People can quit pissed up, but always have a bunch that gets in very happy.

Snamyap

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

.

Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

Character development is a core mechanic of RPG, from early DnD to the game versions now. And it's an aspect of the game that a lot of players love and spend a lot of time and effort on. Suggesting to forgo that just to be able to enjoy 75% of the game is just ludicrous.

Eric_Prince

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

.

Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

Let's imagine that I'm a city running champion. It's just that there's no one better than me, so I'm bored with competing.

I would like the best runners of the state, country, etc. to come to my city so that I can enjoy running with them, get the motivation to be better, try harder.

And instead you suggest that I break my legs, blindfold myself, and, in addition, run naked. Don't you think that's a bit... stupid?
I don't want to make myself weaker, I want to enjoy my achievements. But at the same time, I want opponents to be worthy of me.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

As for rewards... yes, that's my fear. Without increased rewards, nobody will use whatever option ZOS may decide to take and with increased rewards people will feel pressured to use the increased difficulty.

This is the thing I think they were alluding to when they said that there is an incentive problem of "How do you incentivize it?" or something along those lines. I think they are well aware of the kinds of rewards people enjoy but it's moreso how do they pick something that is good enough to entice people to play it, but not so good that people feel compelled to.

ZOS already has a reward problem in the game, as rewards are not currently on parity with expectations. It has been a frequent concern, and one that seems to get more visibility than overland difficulty.

I have expressed concerns about sliders and debuffs when mixed with increased rewards associated with using them, especially if they are grouped with players who are not using sliders and debuffs. This is an easy exploit, and one that does not really resolve itself, like the case with underleveled characters playing with leveled characters.

Aardappelboom

First of all, I still support debuff sliders and any other option that makes for opt-in difficulty.

What I'd like to point out though to the devs, is that ESO has a very wide skill gap. And there's a big difference between how someone who starts out experiences the game versus how players that have been playing for a while experience the game.

I still remember my first playthrough and I enjoyed it very much. It is a fact that when you just start out the game isn't all that simple, you don't know how to weave, you don't know which skills to use, you're stuck with just a few skill points and whenever you pull a mob too many, you can die, sure it's subjective, but they did a good job "balancing" for new players. The difficulty is more or less "just right" for that level of experience.

But I can honestly say the questing experience died, for a part, when I started doing dungeons and PVP. These modes of the game definitely offer challenge, but for me there was no way back. Once you get a hang of it and experiment with builds (not even meta builds, mind you, I hate meta stuff, I'd rather be creative) you're hooked and it's very hard to return to the questing experience. Taking off gear helped for a short while, but there is no sense of progression when doing that. Which is a key part of a roleplaying game for me, even progression in terms of a new set or item that changes up my skillset, is progression and a big appeal for me in this game.

The idea of catering to the player base in terms of "challenging content" and "non-challenging content" seems weird to me, I agree that difficulty mustn't be forced in an elder scrolls game, but people that like challenge, like roleplaying and story just as much as anyone else.

for that reason I think dungeons and trials need a story mode, just as much as stories need a more challenging counterpart.

What they're doing with the world events is the same strategy, yes it's nice they make it a bit more challenging, but I'm not the kind of player that goes through a zone and just searches for challenging stuff, I like to take my time, and i'd like for the zone to be a balanced experience.

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

As for rewards... yes, that's my fear. Without increased rewards, nobody will use whatever option ZOS may decide to take and with increased rewards people will feel pressured to use the increased difficulty.

This is the thing I think they were alluding to when they said that there is an incentive problem of "How do you incentivize it?" or something along those lines. I think they are well aware of the kinds of rewards people enjoy but it's moreso how do they pick something that is good enough to entice people to play it, but not so good that people feel compelled to.

ZOS already has a reward problem in the game, as rewards are not currently on parity with expectations. It has been a frequent concern, and one that seems to get more visibility than overland difficulty.

I have expressed concerns about sliders and debuffs when mixed with increased rewards associated with using them, especially if they are grouped with players who are not using sliders and debuffs. This is an easy exploit, and one that does not really resolve itself, like the case with underleveled characters playing with leveled characters.

Grouping with other players of different skill levels is not an exploit, and this is no different than that.

Muizer

There was a time when I kind of enjoyed overland. It was in Craglorn a while back. The mobs were just a bit hardier, making things like target prioritization relevant and making fights last just long enough to actually complete a rotation or two. As it is, none of that matters. I try to sort of plan how to attack a group of mobs with maximum impact, just because somehow I feel that's where the challenge should be, but quite often I'm left there standing like an imbecile when someone else just runs through them and everything dies instantly from a single skill.

Arunei

Credible_Joe wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

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Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

This is exactly how I play overland content, and it doesn't make it more challenging. It just makes the fights last longer. The issue here being that the gear, attributes, champion points, and consumables that you earn for playing wind up making the game less fun, and are also unnecessary to succeed.

Ultimately what we're petitioning for is overland content (opt-in, as always) that rewards us for challenges us to gear up and play as effectively as possible. Ideally, in my opinion, in a way that can be walked up in stages so that when someone decides to maybe plunge into group content or PvP, they aren't faced with a difficulty cliff and unattainable skill ceiling.

Isn't this the exact same thing that would happen with increased difficulty though? Short of implementing entirely new mechanics for every boss and mob type, any sort of increased difficulty will only result in fights being longer. Mobs having higher HP, players doing less damage or taking more damage, resulting in having to heal more than you do now...it's literally just stuff that makes the fights take longer rather than actually being more challenging.

I still think the only way to implement any increase in difficulty would be to introduce a set of debuff options that lower resistances/health/resources, increases damage taken, snares/CCs at random, and things like that. These options would only apply changes to the player and leave the world at large alone, and people could customize what sort of difficulty they're looking for. It still seems to me it would just make fights take longer rather than introducing any sort of actual challenge, but it would be something people could use that wouldn't affect anyone else or split the player base more, and people wouldn't have to deal with being told to remove stuff they worked to get (gear and CP mostly) to introduce any sense of challenge.

Also, obligatory reminder that difficulty is subjective, and that a majority of people who feel the game is too easy are people who've been playing for a while and thus know what they're doing. Of course things get easier the longer you do them, that's how experience works.

Also, people need to remember that Overland is where a bulk of ESO story is. It's meant to be easy so people can actually enjoy the story. Overland isn't meant to offer the same challenge as dungeons, trials, or PvP, because the main point of Overland is story, not challenge. You have to cater to the lowest common denominator for these things. How often do we see people complaining that people in PUGs do next to no DPS and seem to only know how to Light Attack from a corner? I remember seeing before, too, one of the devs mentioning a while back how the average player doesn't do over 10k DPS? Something like that? Or maybe it was that Companions average 10k DPS because they're meant to do just a bit less than the average player so they do help people who need it but aren't meant to replace another actual player in harder content? There was some actual number given by someone, maybe it was Rich, I just can't remember the exact context.

My point with that is that if the average player is doing low DPS and not really engaging with combat, then it stands to reason the devs aren't going to want to implement a blanket increase in Overland difficulty. It'll just make things harder and more tedious for the average person. Which, again, is why if they do anything to increase Overland difficulty in general, it needs to strictly be an opt-in thing.

Credible_Joe

Arunei wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

.

Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

This is exactly how I play overland content, and it doesn't make it more challenging. It just makes the fights last longer. The issue here being that the gear, attributes, champion points, and consumables that you earn for playing wind up making the game less fun, and are also unnecessary to succeed.

Ultimately what we're petitioning for is overland content (opt-in, as always) that rewards us for challenges us to gear up and play as effectively as possible. Ideally, in my opinion, in a way that can be walked up in stages so that when someone decides to maybe plunge into group content or PvP, they aren't faced with a difficulty cliff and unattainable skill ceiling.

Isn't this the exact same thing that would happen with increased difficulty though? Short of implementing entirely new mechanics for every boss and mob type, any sort of increased difficulty will only result in fights being longer. Mobs having higher HP, players doing less damage or taking more damage, resulting in having to heal more than you do now...it's literally just stuff that makes the fights take longer rather than actually being more challenging.

I still think the only way to implement any increase in difficulty would be to introduce a set of debuff options that lower resistances/health/resources, increases damage taken, snares/CCs at random, and things like that. These options would only apply changes to the player and leave the world at large alone, and people could customize what sort of difficulty they're looking for. It still seems to me it would just make fights take longer rather than introducing any sort of actual challenge, but it would be something people could use that wouldn't affect anyone else or split the player base more, and people wouldn't have to deal with being told to remove stuff they worked to get (gear and CP mostly) to introduce any sense of challenge.

Also, obligatory reminder that difficulty is subjective, and that a majority of people who feel the game is too easy are people who've been playing for a while and thus know what they're doing. Of course things get easier the longer you do them, that's how experience works.

Also, people need to remember that Overland is where a bulk of ESO story is. It's meant to be easy so people can actually enjoy the story. Overland isn't meant to offer the same challenge as dungeons, trials, or PvP, because the main point of Overland is story, not challenge. You have to cater to the lowest common denominator for these things. How often do we see people complaining that people in PUGs do next to no DPS and seem to only know how to Light Attack from a corner? I remember seeing before, too, one of the devs mentioning a while back how the average player doesn't do over 10k DPS? Something like that? Or maybe it was that Companions average 10k DPS because they're meant to do just a bit less than the average player so they do help people who need it but aren't meant to replace another actual player in harder content? There was some actual number given by someone, maybe it was Rich, I just can't remember the exact context.

My point with that is that if the average player is doing low DPS and not really engaging with combat, then it stands to reason the devs aren't going to want to implement a blanket increase in Overland difficulty. It'll just make things harder and more tedious for the average person. Which, again, is why if they do anything to increase Overland difficulty in general, it needs to strictly be an opt-in thing.

No one wants a blanket increase in overland difficulty. My input so far, minus the back-and-forth, can be reviewed in the following posts:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7858076/#Comment_7858076

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7853267/#Comment_7853267

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7850498/#Comment_7850498

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7850363/#Comment_7850363

Arunei

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

.

Kendaric wrote: »

[A debuff, however it would be implemented (food, toggle, slider, etc) is much more flexible and the better way.

I wonder. You can debuff now - don't eat, no potions, strip off armour, no CP, first person mode, etc., etc., but people won't do that despite crying out for harder overland content.

Of course they don't, what's in it for them? Harder overland content must go hand in hand with more XP and better drops.

At which point all the armour, all the CPs, the food, the pots, all come out, and everyone runs a companion to make it that bit easier... after all, if there's more XP and better drops at stake then why make things difficult for yourself?

Pretty soon people start complaining "hard mode overland is too easy".

This is exactly how I play overland content, and it doesn't make it more challenging. It just makes the fights last longer. The issue here being that the gear, attributes, champion points, and consumables that you earn for playing wind up making the game less fun, and are also unnecessary to succeed.

Ultimately what we're petitioning for is overland content (opt-in, as always) that rewards us for challenges us to gear up and play as effectively as possible. Ideally, in my opinion, in a way that can be walked up in stages so that when someone decides to maybe plunge into group content or PvP, they aren't faced with a difficulty cliff and unattainable skill ceiling.

Isn't this the exact same thing that would happen with increased difficulty though? Short of implementing entirely new mechanics for every boss and mob type, any sort of increased difficulty will only result in fights being longer. Mobs having higher HP, players doing less damage or taking more damage, resulting in having to heal more than you do now...it's literally just stuff that makes the fights take longer rather than actually being more challenging.

I still think the only way to implement any increase in difficulty would be to introduce a set of debuff options that lower resistances/health/resources, increases damage taken, snares/CCs at random, and things like that. These options would only apply changes to the player and leave the world at large alone, and people could customize what sort of difficulty they're looking for. It still seems to me it would just make fights take longer rather than introducing any sort of actual challenge, but it would be something people could use that wouldn't affect anyone else or split the player base more, and people wouldn't have to deal with being told to remove stuff they worked to get (gear and CP mostly) to introduce any sense of challenge.

Also, obligatory reminder that difficulty is subjective, and that a majority of people who feel the game is too easy are people who've been playing for a while and thus know what they're doing. Of course things get easier the longer you do them, that's how experience works.

Also, people need to remember that Overland is where a bulk of ESO story is. It's meant to be easy so people can actually enjoy the story. Overland isn't meant to offer the same challenge as dungeons, trials, or PvP, because the main point of Overland is story, not challenge. You have to cater to the lowest common denominator for these things. How often do we see people complaining that people in PUGs do next to no DPS and seem to only know how to Light Attack from a corner? I remember seeing before, too, one of the devs mentioning a while back how the average player doesn't do over 10k DPS? Something like that? Or maybe it was that Companions average 10k DPS because they're meant to do just a bit less than the average player so they do help people who need it but aren't meant to replace another actual player in harder content? There was some actual number given by someone, maybe it was Rich, I just can't remember the exact context.

My point with that is that if the average player is doing low DPS and not really engaging with combat, then it stands to reason the devs aren't going to want to implement a blanket increase in Overland difficulty. It'll just make things harder and more tedious for the average person. Which, again, is why if they do anything to increase Overland difficulty in general, it needs to strictly be an opt-in thing.

No one wants a blanket increase in overland difficulty. My input so far, minus the back-and-forth, can be reviewed in the following posts:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7858076/#Comment_7858076

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7853267/#Comment_7853267

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7850498/#Comment_7850498

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7850363/#Comment_7850363

I didn't mean to imply you DID want a blanket increase. Most people replying here agree that any increase in difficulty should be strictly opt-in. However, there have been people who've outright said they don't think it should be opt-in. In fact there was someone saying that not too many pages back, tho icr who it was. The whole "no blanket increase" is aimed at people who think difficulty should be imposed on everyone regardless of desire or ability to do harder content.

Jammy420

ADarklore wrote: »

Hexnibbler wrote: »

back playing the game, and I'm bored again. I'm the guy who made "Gruk", a character that plays without skillpoints, attribute, or even equipement (bare hands everything). and still wins it all. I still have it.
It was 60 pages ago.
I also made a technical study of challenge versus difficulty back then to show the issue is not about difficulty but about the absolute lack of challenge a player is confronted to.

And overland still is left unchallenging. It feels like we are not being heard at all and this thread is specifically made to be ignored.

It's because, overall, you are in the minority. The game is designed for the majority, which are casual players who just want to log on, do their quests, log out... they don't want challenge or increased difficulty. ZOS has said previously they have no intentions of adjusting the open world difficulty but people keep ignoring THEM and what they've already said.

Youre insulting casual players. I am by no means a hardcore player, and the difficulty is laughable. I stood still last night while i made my dinner being attacked by a mob of 10 enemies, in light armor, and i just out healed with health regen. Thats extreme.

Kendaric

Jammy420 wrote: »

Youre insulting casual players. I am by no means a hardcore player, and the difficulty is laughable. I stood still last night while i made my dinner being attacked by a mob of 10 enemies, in light armor, and i just out healed with health regen. Thats extreme.

What mobs attacked you and how much health regen do you have? Also, how many CP and in which zone were you?

Snamyap

Arunei wrote: »

Also, people need to remember that Overland is where a bulk of ESO story is. It's meant to be easy so people can actually enjoy the story. Overland isn't meant to offer the same challenge as dungeons, trials, or PvP, because the main point of Overland is story, not challenge. You have to cater to the lowest common denominator for these things. How often do we see people complaining that people in PUGs do next to no DPS and seem to only know how to Light Attack from a corner? I remember seeing before, too, one of the devs mentioning a while back how the average player doesn't do over 10k DPS? Something like that? Or maybe it was that Companions average 10k DPS because they're meant to do just a bit less than the average player so they do help people who need it but aren't meant to replace another actual player in harder content? There was some actual number given by someone, maybe it was Rich, I just can't remember the exact context.

My point with that is that if the average player is doing low DPS and not really engaging with combat, then it stands to reason the devs aren't going to want to implement a blanket increase in Overland difficulty. It'll just make things harder and more tedious for the average person. Which, again, is why if they do anything to increase Overland difficulty in general, it needs to strictly be an opt-in thing.

Maybe they aren't breaking 10k dps because the game never challenged them to? They never had to learn to be more capable before they stepped into group content, and then they suddenly run into a brick wall, get yelled at by other players, and log of in distress. The difference is simply too big.