PVP Mass Exodus: Give them a reason to return

deleted220614-000183

Hate to burst your bubble, but Cyrodiil runs on separate servers and doesn't affect normal gameplay. The only time it gets extra resources, is for Mayhem events so all the extra folks going there don't have to experience the lag filled stuttering mess of gameplay that normally exists there. They have probably also systematically lowered the resources assigned to Cyrodiil over the years, as it used to host about 500 players per faction, now it is 100 or less in each campaign.

Oh, and all the lag and disconnects you are seeing in PVE now, that isn't because of Cyrodiil, it is because of decisions they made and stuff coded into the game over the years. The issues just showed up long ago in Cyrodiil most likely because of size, but were bound to happen in the rest of the game sooner or later. Be prepared for cities/zones being lowered to 4-6 players per instance and becoming empty wastelands, because they apparently don't have the first clue about what is causing the issue, nevermind how to actually fix it.[/quote]

I'm afraid my "buuble" is not bursting as you stated

1 Cyrodiil runs on separate servers and doesn't affect normal gameplay.
2 They apparently don't have the first clue about what is causing the issue, nevermind how to actually fix it

Well, how you can be so sure that Cyro is not affecting PVE if the "issue" was never adressed ?

I have a proposal. Let's make a new event "Cyro is on holidays" and close it for 14 days as a sweet reward for pure PVE gamers (including me) who don't bother with PVP at all if not forced by PVP Mayham and Endeavors.

I think it would be fair enough.

At least those extra separate servers used normally for Cyro could be used for something more useful
And then we can conclude if Cyro is not affecting PVE players or not.

IronWooshu

ZoS lack of excitement towards PVP is what is killing this game. If you look at the top 10 games watched on Twitch; 8 of them are because of Player vs Player. This is what people want to watch, not groups running thru Raids and Dungeons for the umpteenth time where the mechanics have been learned, the bosses do the same thing and nothing is changed.

With PVP, its fun to watch and as humans we have always gravitated towards competition going back even further than the Gladiator Arena's in the Roman era. Sports are vastly popular because two teams are competing, competition is what keeps people coming back to watch and to play and largely ignoring PVP is what is killing this game.

You have this epic Hammerdeath Arena in Stormhaven that is a ghost town, what you could have done was implemented a 1v1 eso ranking system, leaderboards that show a players wins/losses.. rewards given to the top 10 duelers weekly and the matches ONLY count in the Hammerdeath Arena. Having a central location like that will make people want to come and watch and make people want to stay and fight in the spirit of competition.

Cyrolag needs to be largely fixed and battlegrounds need more items to chase.. How about making items like you do in the solo arena's (ie. Maelstrom) to chase but for battlegrounds in PVP?

New World might be shallow for PVE only players but it will last and be more watched on Twitch because of the competitive nature in the game itself. I know PVE only players dont want to acknlowedge PVP and think this game survives purely on PVE content but in reality it doesn't. It's not even hitting 1k concurrent viewers because no one wants to watch PVE players unless you actually like the streamer themselves.

Its time ZoS to focus on PVP aspects (while not ignoring PVE outright) but PVP needs love, bring back the spirit of competition, the players and the viewers on Twitch.

You only have to go to Twitch and see why so many games remain on top and that's because of PVP.

Jeremy

IronWooshu wrote: »

ZoS lack of excitement towards PVP is what is killing this game. If you look at the top 10 games watched on Twitch; 8 of them are because of Player vs Player. This is what people want to watch, not groups running thru Raids and Dungeons for the umpteenth time where the mechanics have been learned, the bosses do the same thing and nothing is changed.

With PVP, its fun to watch and as humans we have always gravitated towards competition going back even further than the Gladiator Arena's in the Roman era. Sports are vastly popular because two teams are competing, competition is what keeps people coming back to watch and to play and largely ignoring PVP is what is killing this game.

You have this epic Hammerdeath Arena in Stormhaven that is a ghost town, what you could have done was implemented a 1v1 eso ranking system, leaderboards that show a players wins/losses.. rewards given to the top 10 duelers weekly and the matches ONLY count in the Hammerdeath Arena. Having a central location like that will make people want to come and watch and make people want to stay and fight in the spirit of competition.

Cyrolag needs to be largely fixed and battlegrounds need more items to chase.. How about making items like you do in the solo arena's (ie. Maelstrom) to chase but for battlegrounds in PVP?

New World might be shallow for PVE only players but it will last and be more watched on Twitch because of the competitive nature in the game itself. I know PVE only players dont want to acknlowedge PVP and think this game survives purely on PVE content but in reality it doesn't. It's not even hitting 1k concurrent viewers because no one wants to watch PVE players unless you actually like the streamer themselves.

Its time ZoS to focus on PVP aspects (while not ignoring PVE outright) but PVP needs love, bring back the spirit of competition, the players and the viewers on Twitch.

You only have to go to Twitch and see why so many games remain on top and that's because of PVP.

What are these many games that remain on top because of PvP? Speaking about MMORPGs.

IronWooshu

Jeremy wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ZoS lack of excitement towards PVP is what is killing this game. If you look at the top 10 games watched on Twitch; 8 of them are because of Player vs Player. This is what people want to watch, not groups running thru Raids and Dungeons for the umpteenth time where the mechanics have been learned, the bosses do the same thing and nothing is changed.

With PVP, its fun to watch and as humans we have always gravitated towards competition going back even further than the Gladiator Arena's in the Roman era. Sports are vastly popular because two teams are competing, competition is what keeps people coming back to watch and to play and largely ignoring PVP is what is killing this game.

You have this epic Hammerdeath Arena in Stormhaven that is a ghost town, what you could have done was implemented a 1v1 eso ranking system, leaderboards that show a players wins/losses.. rewards given to the top 10 duelers weekly and the matches ONLY count in the Hammerdeath Arena. Having a central location like that will make people want to come and watch and make people want to stay and fight in the spirit of competition.

Cyrolag needs to be largely fixed and battlegrounds need more items to chase.. How about making items like you do in the solo arena's (ie. Maelstrom) to chase but for battlegrounds in PVP?

New World might be shallow for PVE only players but it will last and be more watched on Twitch because of the competitive nature in the game itself. I know PVE only players dont want to acknlowedge PVP and think this game survives purely on PVE content but in reality it doesn't. It's not even hitting 1k concurrent viewers because no one wants to watch PVE players unless you actually like the streamer themselves.

Its time ZoS to focus on PVP aspects (while not ignoring PVE outright) but PVP needs love, bring back the spirit of competition, the players and the viewers on Twitch.

You only have to go to Twitch and see why so many games remain on top and that's because of PVP.

What are these many games that remain on top because of PvP? Speaking about MMORPGs.

What does the genre of the game matter? MMORPG's don't really maintain dominance of viewers because most of them don't focus on PVP, New World is really the first MMORPG to actually do this and they actually rank 14th for the highest viewers ever. The top games? of course purely competitive games Fortnite, League of Legends, Valorant and Dota 2. With League and Dota 2 being largely MMORPG PVP style gaming.

The point is competition is largely what makes people want to watch and play; like I said 8 of the top 10 currently viewed games are competitive in nature from League of Legends to Fortnite to Apex Legends.

IronWooshu

For more information on the data I pulled:
https://twitchtracker.com/games/peak-viewers

If you notice on this list of peak viewers of all time, 14 of the top 20 games on this list are competitive in nature.

Jeremy

IronWooshu wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ZoS lack of excitement towards PVP is what is killing this game. If you look at the top 10 games watched on Twitch; 8 of them are because of Player vs Player. This is what people want to watch, not groups running thru Raids and Dungeons for the umpteenth time where the mechanics have been learned, the bosses do the same thing and nothing is changed.

With PVP, its fun to watch and as humans we have always gravitated towards competition going back even further than the Gladiator Arena's in the Roman era. Sports are vastly popular because two teams are competing, competition is what keeps people coming back to watch and to play and largely ignoring PVP is what is killing this game.

You have this epic Hammerdeath Arena in Stormhaven that is a ghost town, what you could have done was implemented a 1v1 eso ranking system, leaderboards that show a players wins/losses.. rewards given to the top 10 duelers weekly and the matches ONLY count in the Hammerdeath Arena. Having a central location like that will make people want to come and watch and make people want to stay and fight in the spirit of competition.

Cyrolag needs to be largely fixed and battlegrounds need more items to chase.. How about making items like you do in the solo arena's (ie. Maelstrom) to chase but for battlegrounds in PVP?

New World might be shallow for PVE only players but it will last and be more watched on Twitch because of the competitive nature in the game itself. I know PVE only players dont want to acknlowedge PVP and think this game survives purely on PVE content but in reality it doesn't. It's not even hitting 1k concurrent viewers because no one wants to watch PVE players unless you actually like the streamer themselves.

Its time ZoS to focus on PVP aspects (while not ignoring PVE outright) but PVP needs love, bring back the spirit of competition, the players and the viewers on Twitch.

You only have to go to Twitch and see why so many games remain on top and that's because of PVP.

What are these many games that remain on top because of PvP? Speaking about MMORPGs.

What does the genre of the game matter? MMORPG's don't really maintain dominance of viewers because most of them don't focus on PVP, New World is really the first MMORPG to actually do this and they actually rank 14th for the highest viewers ever. The top games? of course purely competitive games Fortnite, League of Legends, Valorant and Dota 2. With League and Dota 2 being largely MMORPG PVP style gaming.

The point is competition is largely what makes people want to watch and play; like I said 8 of the top 10 currently viewed games are competitive in nature from League of Legends to Fortnite to Apex Legends.

Because I was curious as to what games you were talking about and whether or not they were MMORPGs.

I'm skeptical an MMORPG can thrive on PvP alone. Tournament-style games are a lot easier to balance for PvP, but in an open world you have to consider the zerging and griefers.

IronWooshu

Jeremy wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ZoS lack of excitement towards PVP is what is killing this game. If you look at the top 10 games watched on Twitch; 8 of them are because of Player vs Player. This is what people want to watch, not groups running thru Raids and Dungeons for the umpteenth time where the mechanics have been learned, the bosses do the same thing and nothing is changed.

With PVP, its fun to watch and as humans we have always gravitated towards competition going back even further than the Gladiator Arena's in the Roman era. Sports are vastly popular because two teams are competing, competition is what keeps people coming back to watch and to play and largely ignoring PVP is what is killing this game.

You have this epic Hammerdeath Arena in Stormhaven that is a ghost town, what you could have done was implemented a 1v1 eso ranking system, leaderboards that show a players wins/losses.. rewards given to the top 10 duelers weekly and the matches ONLY count in the Hammerdeath Arena. Having a central location like that will make people want to come and watch and make people want to stay and fight in the spirit of competition.

Cyrolag needs to be largely fixed and battlegrounds need more items to chase.. How about making items like you do in the solo arena's (ie. Maelstrom) to chase but for battlegrounds in PVP?

New World might be shallow for PVE only players but it will last and be more watched on Twitch because of the competitive nature in the game itself. I know PVE only players dont want to acknlowedge PVP and think this game survives purely on PVE content but in reality it doesn't. It's not even hitting 1k concurrent viewers because no one wants to watch PVE players unless you actually like the streamer themselves.

Its time ZoS to focus on PVP aspects (while not ignoring PVE outright) but PVP needs love, bring back the spirit of competition, the players and the viewers on Twitch.

You only have to go to Twitch and see why so many games remain on top and that's because of PVP.

What are these many games that remain on top because of PvP? Speaking about MMORPGs.

What does the genre of the game matter? MMORPG's don't really maintain dominance of viewers because most of them don't focus on PVP, New World is really the first MMORPG to actually do this and they actually rank 14th for the highest viewers ever. The top games? of course purely competitive games Fortnite, League of Legends, Valorant and Dota 2. With League and Dota 2 being largely MMORPG PVP style gaming.

The point is competition is largely what makes people want to watch and play; like I said 8 of the top 10 currently viewed games are competitive in nature from League of Legends to Fortnite to Apex Legends.

Because I was curious as to what games you were talking about and whether or not they were MMORPGs.

I'm skeptical an MMORPG can thrive on PvP alone. Tournament-style games are a lot easier to balance for PvP, but in an open world you have to consider the zerging and griefers.

I'm not saying an MMORPG can survive on PVP alone and I agree with you there but PVP often helps games maintain players during months with no new PVE content. This is how Destiny thrived, game got a horrible reception but the PVP was so good, couple expansions later they knocked it out the park with a huge content drop in the Taken King but it was always PVP that keep players engaged with the game and viewers watching on Twitch in between PVE content drops.

Zenimax has largely ignored the PVP community and are now hemorrhaging players when other options come out, DeltiaGaming has a video on how dead GreyHost has been on the PC. ZoS has to realize they need a healthy balance of both PVE and PVP but PVP has been neglected for so long and now we are seeing the full fallout from it.

Cyrodiil is a mess.

Jeremy

IronWooshu wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ZoS lack of excitement towards PVP is what is killing this game. If you look at the top 10 games watched on Twitch; 8 of them are because of Player vs Player. This is what people want to watch, not groups running thru Raids and Dungeons for the umpteenth time where the mechanics have been learned, the bosses do the same thing and nothing is changed.

With PVP, its fun to watch and as humans we have always gravitated towards competition going back even further than the Gladiator Arena's in the Roman era. Sports are vastly popular because two teams are competing, competition is what keeps people coming back to watch and to play and largely ignoring PVP is what is killing this game.

You have this epic Hammerdeath Arena in Stormhaven that is a ghost town, what you could have done was implemented a 1v1 eso ranking system, leaderboards that show a players wins/losses.. rewards given to the top 10 duelers weekly and the matches ONLY count in the Hammerdeath Arena. Having a central location like that will make people want to come and watch and make people want to stay and fight in the spirit of competition.

Cyrolag needs to be largely fixed and battlegrounds need more items to chase.. How about making items like you do in the solo arena's (ie. Maelstrom) to chase but for battlegrounds in PVP?

New World might be shallow for PVE only players but it will last and be more watched on Twitch because of the competitive nature in the game itself. I know PVE only players dont want to acknlowedge PVP and think this game survives purely on PVE content but in reality it doesn't. It's not even hitting 1k concurrent viewers because no one wants to watch PVE players unless you actually like the streamer themselves.

Its time ZoS to focus on PVP aspects (while not ignoring PVE outright) but PVP needs love, bring back the spirit of competition, the players and the viewers on Twitch.

You only have to go to Twitch and see why so many games remain on top and that's because of PVP.

What are these many games that remain on top because of PvP? Speaking about MMORPGs.

What does the genre of the game matter? MMORPG's don't really maintain dominance of viewers because most of them don't focus on PVP, New World is really the first MMORPG to actually do this and they actually rank 14th for the highest viewers ever. The top games? of course purely competitive games Fortnite, League of Legends, Valorant and Dota 2. With League and Dota 2 being largely MMORPG PVP style gaming.

The point is competition is largely what makes people want to watch and play; like I said 8 of the top 10 currently viewed games are competitive in nature from League of Legends to Fortnite to Apex Legends.

Because I was curious as to what games you were talking about and whether or not they were MMORPGs.

I'm skeptical an MMORPG can thrive on PvP alone. Tournament-style games are a lot easier to balance for PvP, but in an open world you have to consider the zerging and griefers.

I'm not saying an MMORPG can survive on PVP alone and I agree with you there but PVP often helps games maintain players during months with no new PVE content. This is how Destiny thrived, game got a horrible reception but the PVP was so good, couple expansions later they knocked it out the park with a huge content drop in the Taken King but it was always PVP that keep players engaged with the game and viewers watching on Twitch in between PVE content drops.

Zenimax has largely ignored the PVP community and are now hemorrhaging players when other options come out, DeltiaGaming has a video on how dead GreyHost has been on the PC. ZoS has to realize they need a healthy balance of both PVE and PVP but PVP has been neglected for so long and now we are seeing the full fallout from it.

Cyrodiil is a mess.

Well I can't disagree with you there. Having some good PvP opportunities for those who want it would be nothing but an asset to any MMORPG.

maxjapank

So how's the mass exodus working over in the new world? Seeing more and more posts about bugs, and releasing too early, and no end game. Which grass is looking greener now?

IronWooshu

maxjapank wrote: »

So how's the mass exodus working over in the new world? Seeing more and more posts about bugs, and releasing too early, and no end game. Which grass is looking greener now?

I see the opposite, they are patching bugs with hot fixes every other week, they already have talked about the future of the game. Bezo's has invested everything into this game, they have more money then they know what to do with. They have teams fixing bugs while huge other teams work on DLC and DLC before that DLC.

Also no one is complaining about the PVP other than wishing the developers made players more incentive in flagging themselves for open world PVP but other than that, the territory battles are still fun.

EDIT: With that said tho, I think the PVP combat in ESO is way more fluid and fun, it just the bar swap lag and skills not firing sucks and ruins it. Also the cast times on ultimate's (TERRIBLE IDEA)

Amottica

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

RoninMB wrote: »

There are plenty of pvp players spending money on new content when it comes out and other stuff from the crown store.

The PvE "I want to play with friends" "I want housing" "I want cosmetics" crowd gets all this, and pays for it in the crown store.

One question would be what can be sold in the crown store that would appeal to a PvPer (and not a PvE'er/roleplayer) AND would NOT be classified as "pay to win"?

Call of Duty did map packs. New fleshed out maps for multiplayer only.

I'm not sure of the ESO PvP community is big enough to split the community into players with only basegame maps and DLC maps but it worked for COD.

Zenimax could not sell the PvP community on BGs so they added them to the base game to ensure enough players would be queueing. So I agree that it is questionable there is enough that would actually buy map packs or anything related.

Nagastani

trpajzla wrote: »

Don't want to be impolite, but ESO PVP is nteresting for vast minority of ESO players only.
On the other hand, it consumes majority of server resources.
I suppose 70-90 percent of ESO performance problems are related to PVP.
The whole ESO game crashed recently couple of times because of PVP , lags and issues are mainly related to PVP.
We have 7 hours of maintnanace once per week and it seems not to be enough to patch all of that problems.

So who really cares about PVP and losing somebody friends playing PVP ? Not me.
Let them go, the less PVP players, the less problems.
Cyrodil in current state of decay is a nightmare zone not good for anything.

PVP in ESO is what it is and it can't be fixed easily.
ZOS seems not to be interested in refactoring and code optimalization and server capacity enhancement as it is a pure loss. they will rather develop a new chapter and sell it in crownstore and let PVP players struggle.

Just my opinion.

You know, I was like -this close- to getting mad about what they said here but if you think about it, makes sense.

Maybe ZOS needs to sit down and think about the direction they have set for PvP in this game. Cause let's face it there is no option for ESO to go PvP solo. So the question for ZOS would be to PvP or devote their time just on PvE.

I know the issue is polarizing however I think this is something they need to think about. Because not even New World but there are other games that have dedicated support for making PvP great again. And ESO PvP could be great again or well... it could be normal again but not when you have sets with seriously unbalanced effects wrecking gameplay and driving people away... *looking at you Dark Convergence*.

I have good memories from Cyrodiil and bad but all of it was memorable despite the problems with lag, which could sometimes be turned into something kind of funny instead of depressing. But you know, Dark Convergence takes the ugliness and drag you into it. Its like when Dark Convergence hit Cyrodiil it was... maybe they didn't mean it this way but almost like a big [snip] you to the PvPers. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way but that is how it felt (obviously not just by me either). So I have no idea if Dark Convergence is still able to pull ppl from walls or what not but I mean, if it still is, then there's our answer on what ZOS thinks of PvPers or PvP in general. Its like PvP is a joke to them, things like Dark Convergence are comically powerful. It's almost like we're being trolled.

Maybe I'm wrong, would like to hope I am but as the op and others have said, we are noticing patterns, things are changing for the worse (seems like) and every year its getting harder to justify spending money or too much of my time on a game that really doesn't feel like the game I bought. Its like something has been lost here and it would be better for them to just stop dancing around the patch notes and tell us what we have here and what the vision is -now- because its not matching up with what it was.

And PvP could be fixed, it could all get cleaned up and alot of us would come back. In doing so also doesn't mean you have to give everyone what they want but the problem isn't what we want as much as the gameplay that's supposed to be there just isn't there. To help illustrate this, earlier this year when you guys did the tests, I had the most fun in Cyrodiil during the no-proc test... than I have had in years. Now this is Cyrodiil not Imperial City, which is where I hung out most of the time, especially when Cyrodiil started having major issues.

Tone down the effects and set some rules. Rule #1 - No Player shall be more powerful than a group of average players. So keep all sets, weapons, anything out of PvP that's going to make one person stupidly powerful. Emp could be an exception to this rule. But Dark Convergence basically turns everyone into Emp. But keep all proc sets away from PvP, including Vicious Death. Why pull VD? to stop the bombers. All some ppl do with their time is bomb groups, solos, everyone it was -ok- for a while but no its gotten out of hand and is ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? Because one person can wipe out entire groups which makes having groups utterly pointless. Do you see what I'm saying here? Rule #2 - No proc sets but continue to widen the rules to allow for more sets to be used. Rule #3 - Change the group buffs to prevent continuous exploitation. One group should not be unkillable by a 'castle' full of players. Like there's one group flying around with 3x to 4x times as many ppl after them. This is nonsense and needs to stop. This is another thing driving players away. But at the same, still make group gameplay rewarding without making it where one or two ppl buffing the group and everyone else is along for the ride.

I dunno this is just a couple ideas. They prob won't be welcome lol But realism is seriously missing from Cyrodiil PvP in this game and like I said with the unkillable ball groups, ppl will stop caring when you have one guild doing this and no one can kill them. They should be strong as a unit, yes. But like in New World, there is some area of affect support but its still up to each person to pay attention. Every action ppl do matters but in ESO with these ball groups, they don't have to care. They can literally just ride along and just follow a rotation with no consequences. Its not an easy thing to solve, no. Indeed this may not be solvable. But its worth trying.

[edited for profanity bypass]

maxjapank

IronWooshu wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

So how's the mass exodus working over in the new world? Seeing more and more posts about bugs, and releasing too early, and no end game. Which grass is looking greener now?

I see the opposite, they are patching bugs with hot fixes every other week, they already have talked about the future of the game. Bezo's has invested everything into this game, they have more money then they know what to do with. They have teams fixing bugs while huge other teams work on DLC and DLC before that DLC.

Also no one is complaining about the PVP other than wishing the developers made players more incentive in flagging themselves for open world PVP but other than that, the territory battles are still fun.

If you scroll through Reddit New World, there is post after post about bugs. Was watching a few twitch streamers also pointing out how skills were bugged, not to mention clips of incredible lag in wars. I've also seen a few in Discord channels (hard core pvprs) who have said they uninstalled as there is no end game.

It's nice believe in the game you are playing. And I'm not taking a swipe at New World, either. But it seems to me that every game has bugs and problems with lag. I guess in the end, you just have to play whichever game you are enjoying more. And there is nothing wrong with that. That's how it should be.

Nagastani

And... in getting back to PvP basics... I know ya'll are probably real tired of hearing us talk about New World by now But its worth mentioning, there is a fundamental difference here between reasons why people group. In NW, if we're moving out to the Fort uh.. we're going together. Yes a few really high level players will not care as much but by and large we move together out of necessity and survival. This is how it use to be with ESO, or how it felt I should say.

In ESO, a ball group moves together so everyone can inherit buffs, heals and so what you have is a couple people doing all the work and no one else in the group is even worried. I swear sometimes with these ball groups, its like Santa in his sleigh and he's got those black leather boots on with his reindeer just blazing thru the place at mach speed, all of them sailing off the top level together, untouchable, running over people with attacks that really feel more like exploits even though perhaps the group does not mean to exploit, no one in the group gets hurt, no one is slowed, no one has to care and on and on they go, this could go on for hours. They are invincible.

And, to take this one step further... suppose we do setup a group in Cyrodiil. We leave Sej for BRK, arrive at BRK mine, clear mine, flags flipping annnnnnd *BOMB*. Everyone respawns at Sej. We leave Sej front door, group forms up, everyone is mounted up, preparing to head out, annnnnnnd *BOMB*. Later on Siege begins at BRK, everyone took the time to prepare for the siege, expecting a fight, they see a few DC on the walls annnnnnnnnnd *BOMB* on the siege crew, 90% of the group is dead, everyone at the keep is deprived of what could have potentially been a dramatic and engaging battle. Eventually after hours of abuse and suffering, the poor PvPers finally take BRK. Flags are flipped, inner door is being rep'd annnnnnn *BOMB* outer door is being rep'd annnnnnnd *BOMB*.

My reason for bringing up this last scenario about the VD/DC bombers is because it feels as if you're being punished no matter what you do. If we try we die without a battle, if we win, we still lose and are embarrassed by the bombers especially if its being streamed, because our group won fairly and so they resort to bombing us out of spite. ZOS do you see what is happening now? This is why -MANY- PvPers are running solo. Your Group feature has virtually become obsolete unless it can be used to pool heals and buffs by an organized ball group. So ESO Group function -no longer- favors the average player who is further ahead going Solo and probably safer too.

I hope this helps the Dev Team make future changes however I don't feel that they can be helped if we can't be honest about this stuff.

kargen27

IronWooshu wrote: »

For more information on the data I pulled:
https://twitchtracker.com/games/peak-viewers

If you notice on this list of peak viewers of all time, 14 of the top 20 games on this list are competitive in nature.

That could be for a variety of reasons. Maybe people that play those types of games tend to be the types of people that like watching others play? Watching others compete after all is a bit more exciting than watching someone talk to NPCs while on a quest. You might be seeing a correlation that doesn't exist.

IronWooshu

kargen27 wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

For more information on the data I pulled:
https://twitchtracker.com/games/peak-viewers

If you notice on this list of peak viewers of all time, 14 of the top 20 games on this list are competitive in nature.

That could be for a variety of reasons. Maybe people that play those types of games tend to be the types of people that like watching others play? Watching others compete after all is a bit more exciting than watching someone talk to NPCs while on a quest. You might be seeing a correlation that doesn't exist.

I'm basing my theory off scientific data, humans are competitive by nature.

"Competitions have the undesirable quality of being a “zero-sum” game (i.e., in order for you to win, someone else must lose). Nonetheless, throughout human history, people seemed to have enjoyed organizing competitions in one form or another, from the ancient Greek Olympic Games (going back as far as 776 BC) to modern soccer (I would say American Football, but soccer is actually the most popular sport in the world). In fact, when you look closely, you’ll notice that competition is everywhere in modern society. Economists tell us that competition is an essential force in maintaining productive and efficient markets"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/socially-relevant/201506/the-psychology-competition

You can read more, another article from sciencedirect on why people like competition

"We hypothesized that people who are motivated by competition are motivated for at least three reasons: competition allows them to satisfy the need to win, competition provides the opportunity or reason for improving their performance, and competition motivates them to put forth greater effort that can result in high levels of performance."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0191886995000355#:~:text=We hypothesized that people who,that can result in high

I mean the study is everywhere and its been that way throughout civilization dating back to before a time we even have proper history for. It's not a wild theory to jump to the theory that the top most watched/played games are competitive in nature (sans a few). Look at League of Legends, it's 5v5 PVP is largely MMORPG style and that game is a professional esport with multiple leagues and huge dollar amounts/sell out crowds. They don't have an PVE side to the game and it does way better than ESO.

ZoS would be crazy to eliminate PVP, as much as PVER's think they can sustain this game alone, simple truth is they cant and if Zenimax doesn't focus more on PVP they will hemorrhage more players. Competition is healthy for this game, for the players, for its future on Twitch. You fix alot of the problems plaguing Cyrodiill and I guarantee you a lot of streamers come back because the combat in this game is fun when it works.

deleted220614-000183

Let talk in facts.

I already mentioned that PVP and especially massive fights in CYRO are devastating for the server performance and this is the fact.
No doubts about it.
Some folks say that PVP is not affecting PVE community, well I'm not so convinced.

ZOS as any other company in the gaming industry is eager advertise that their game supports massive PVP events - just because it attracts some part of the gaming community and just because their competition do the same.

PVP players taking parts in massive PVP battles are relatively small chunk of community but very important, because they tend to be streamers and youtubers and gaming celebrities and folks writing reviews for gaming magazines and these people are noisy and loud and visible and important for public relations.

PVE part is not so much noisy and visible but it makes huge majority of incomes for the company so they have to decide wisely

This is perfectly what we see in reality and nobody talks about it openly.

I don't like the idea of boosting PVP part of the game just to satisfy small portion of game community when PVE part already struggle with the performance.

Let me explain it again on 2 examples.

Example 1
40 PVE players fighting a dragon
It is relation 1:n so it means in any given moment server must solve 40 events at once. In reality it is more, because of synergy
But let make it simple and conclude that 40 operations must be done before your frontend can show you what is your HP and buffs etc.

Ecample 2
40 PVP players fighting another 40 players in CYRO
It is relation n:n so it means 1600 events must be calculated in any given moment so you can see on your frontend your HP, buffs etc. In reality it is much more because of synergy.

Now let's talk about optimalization.
PVE boss can be optimized (and it is optimized) so it has big pool of HP and casts very slowly.
Just observe what dragon is doing, he is most of the time sitting and taking the damage so the load on the server is minimal.

PVP players are doing everything they can, running, jumping, shielding, casting everything they can even what they cant cast and is on cooldown and all of this must be taken into account.
And they tend to be very noisy if their ult missfires because of lag because it has the grave consequences.

So my conclussion is that PVP folks will never be happy, even if you put much more HW resources dedicated only for PVP to them (and it costs a lot of money) because the idea of mass PVP battles is more or less advertising myth which is in harsh reality of mathematics failing again and again and again in any game I know.

Skullstachio

For pvp’ers leaving for New World: your gonna have a seriously bad time as New world is suffering a Serious Deflation Crisis.

But i’ll let yongyea’s video explain it better.
https://youtu.be/W1oDjz5FDj0

deleted220614-000183

I dont think PVP folks are so much focused on economy aspects.
Most of PVP players I know are broken with all money invested in PVP gear which is usually nerfed couple of weeks after the release .
Economy problems affects mostly traders / home builders / collectors

Anyway, deflation in New World is nothing that we could laugh about
as ESO is facing serious inflation problems.

For example half year ago PC/EU prices
transmute station 500k -> 1M - doubled
alchemy writ 4k -> 12k tripled
crown currency 300 -> 1200 quadrupled

Kwoung

trpajzla wrote: »

Let talk in facts.

Interesting way to start, when everything you posted following it was completely made up.

deleted220614-000183

Kwoung wrote: »

trpajzla wrote: »

Let talk in facts.

Interesting way to start, when everything you posted following it was completely made up.

Oh yes. 20 years experience in the industry only.

Back to the particular problem.

Those PVP warriors didn't give us any example of a single one succesfull MMORPG game depending on PVP yet.

League of Legends / Dota ? Laughable, You have 2 teams of 5 players on 2D minimap
compare it with 3 aliances of 1000 players on huge Cyro map.

WOT ? Better example but the most fights are between 2 teams of 15 players on medium maps and these fights are relatively short, tanks are not jumping/mounting/shielding/ running / casting / respawning and the biggest battles are involving 30 players in the team. Still much smaller requirements then Cyro in ESO

Now people are talking about New World, dont want to try this game but I doubt they will not face the same performance problems sooner or later if they go for mass camapingns and fights CYRO edition.

It is absolute waste of time to explain some people that it is not possible to give players couple of hours of PVP battles involving hundreds of players in huge PVP areas because the hardware requirements will break any reasonable limits, especially for game which is more or less free to play.

If you want this experience, go for it, buy your own private server, find hundred of PVP friends and you can try, how much resources it would take and how laggy it would be.

I am as pure PVE guy not willing to pay a single penny on that project as I know how it ends.

Elo106

trpajzla wrote: »

I am as pure PVE guy not willing to pay a single penny on that project as I know how it ends.

We dont get to choose what we pay for, PvPers ESO+ goes towards your PVE content as well. Maybe just live and let live, one PvP feature a day and some cyro campaigns arent going to hurt you.

But your mind is already made up with your opinions, you call facts.

So lets get back to the topic, PvPers leaving. No matter what stance you take, having most PvP streamers leave is not a good look for ESO. ESO views on twitch is down bad, in my timezone I had 6-10 pvp streamers I could watch, now its just 1 guy left.

Cyro is empty, low pop most of the time and still laggy, BGs are dead cause of dark convergeance, Stormhaven duels have been dead for quite some time now, its looking real empty for PvPers.

One PvP content update could fix that, or atleast an update on the tests we suffered through, performance and a plan what is to come regarding pvp.

deleted220614-000183

Elo106 wrote: »

trpajzla wrote: »

I am as pure PVE guy not willing to pay a single penny on that project as I know how it ends.

We dont get to choose what we pay for, PvPers ESO+ goes towards your PVE content as well. Maybe just live and let live, one PvP feature a day and some cyro campaigns arent going to hurt you.

But your mind is already made up with your opinions, you call facts.

So lets get back to the topic, PvPers leaving. No matter what stance you take, having most PvP streamers leave is not a good look for ESO. ESO views on twitch is down bad, in my timezone I had 6-10 pvp streamers I could watch, now its just 1 guy left.

Cyro is empty, low pop most of the time and still laggy, BGs are dead cause of dark convergeance, Stormhaven duels have been dead for quite some time now, its looking real empty for PvPers.

One PvP content update could fix that, or atleast an update on the tests we suffered through, performance and a plan what is to come regarding pvp.

I don't see anything bad on it, it is a market and real life.

Some Youtubers, streamers and big mouth folks will probably say now ESO PVP is not good enough.
On the other hand I'm not paying $1.000.000 bills for hardware dedicated purely for PVPers in CYRO as ZOS studio probably does, just rough estimates

IMHO I see 2 options:

1. double the amount of money they are paying for the infrastructure with the hope that PVP will be less laggy, but it will attract more PVP players so it would become laggy again in weeks or months
2. make thorough optimalization of the game engine which basicaly means rewrite the whole game from the scratch,
it would be probably cheaper to design brand new game instead
3. put focus on something else then PVP, for example new DLCs, dungeons and chapters and ignore streamers and Youtubers and big mouths talking primarily about PVP

IMHO option 3 is way cheapest and safest and preffered solution then oprions 1, 2 which are risky and believe me or not, PVPers will complain about lags and unbalanced sets even if you put them all the servers in the world and test all the possible scenarios 1000 times before release.

Cronopoly

maxjapank wrote: »

So how's the mass exodus working over in the new world? Seeing more and more posts about bugs, and releasing too early, and no end game. Which grass is looking greener now?

TBH I'm having a blast playing a Vanilla release. No different than ESO when Vanilla, WoW, MxO j/k 😁😜, Horizons, SWG, Conan, GW(2), DAoC, Everquest etc... They all had crazy bugs upon release...

I like the competition, and have had a blast with ESO & NW.

deleted220614-000183

Well. all MMORPG have their life cycle.
NW is a new game so I assume their code is better optimized and they learned a lesson from ESO devs who had unrealistic PVP ambitions and sized CYRO map and player cap 10 imes bigger then they wanted and now they would probably like to shrink it and burry deep under the ground but it is too late.

I'm not playing NW but on the webpages the final stage of PVP is a war between 2 groups of 50 players and one must enlist in advance and permission is not guaranteed - in other words, game servers will never be overloaded as they have implemented failsafe waiting queue.
In other words, they will never run out of server capacity because of the battleground.

TwinStripeUK

Skoomah wrote: »

My friends list is now suddenly half inactive with people last being logged into the game 4+ days ago. They’ve all gone to a new game and if that game successfully keeps their attention, there is little to no chance half my friends are coming back to play ESO.

If you're referring to 'New World', I really hope for their sakes that they didn't give all of their stuff away....

maxjapank

Cronopoly wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

So how's the mass exodus working over in the new world? Seeing more and more posts about bugs, and releasing too early, and no end game. Which grass is looking greener now?

TBH I'm having a blast playing a Vanilla release. No different than ESO when Vanilla, WoW, MxO j/k 😁😜, Horizons, SWG, Conan, GW(2), DAoC, Everquest etc... They all had crazy bugs upon release...

I like the competition, and have had a blast with ESO & NW.

Good to hear. I’ve been mixing up ESO with Far Cry 6. Enjoy both immensely.

_adhyffbjjjf12

TwinStripeUK wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

My friends list is now suddenly half inactive with people last being logged into the game 4+ days ago. They’ve all gone to a new game and if that game successfully keeps their attention, there is little to no chance half my friends are coming back to play ESO.

If you're referring to 'New World', I really hope for their sakes that they didn't give all of their stuff away....

considering that new game has no end game pve content, limited pvp and an economy that is bombing i would keep that stuff locked away!

Reverb

trpajzla wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

trpajzla wrote: »

Don't want to be impolite, but ESO PVP is nteresting for vast minority of ESO players only.
On the other hand, it consumes majority of server resources.
I suppose 70-90 percent of ESO performance problems are related to PVP.
The whole ESO game crashed recently couple of times because of PVP , lags and issues are mainly related to PVP.
We have 7 hours of maintnanace once per week and it seems not to be enough to patch all of that problems.

So who really cares about PVP and losing somebody friends playing PVP ? Not me.
Let them go, the less PVP players, the less problems.
Cyrodil in current state of decay is a nightmare zone not good for anything.

PVP in ESO is what it is and it can't be fixed easily.
ZOS seems not to be interested in refactoring and code optimalization and server capacity enhancement as it is a pure loss. they will rather develop a new chapter and sell it in crownstore and let PVP players struggle.

Just my opinion.

Could you please provide some links backing up your "opinion" that PvP consumes the majority of server resources?

Of course I can do.
Cyrodiil is one huge bottleneck on server performance.
Group dungeons are not so bad but they are the second biggest problem
In PVE world you can always load balance and split groups of players to different nodes so they never use the same capacity in your HW environment. Network bandwitch, CPU cores ore memory cells are today scalable and virtualized and can be added on the fly.
But this is not the case in PVP because big groups fighting each other long fights must work together (or against each other) from the start till the end, no reloads, no leaving the area, whatever giving the program opportunity to break and realocate
So when 40 palyers are casting all they could cast at once against another group doing the same to kill each other, things starting to be pretty rough on server side. Ping goes high , CPU performance down and memory is full. You can divert the load to another node because all is happening in one place and if you do so, all will lag or crash which is happening all the time
If you allocate biug reserve of resources, they will be used for the fraction capacity nearly all the time just to be able to serve in the peaks when huge battle occurs. And allocation of big resources costs big money.

You’ve cited no sources, nor evidence that you have firsthand knowledge of ESO specific infrastructure or netcode. You offer opinion and conjecture, and use that to write off an entire segment of the player base. Poor form.

Sylosi

Redacted.